Replies

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 10, 2003 05:22am | #1

   Just about any finish material which penetrates the wood fibers is going to alter the way that the dry color looks because it changes the way that you optically view the surface. Which is to say that it changed the way that the wood fibers reflect the existing light. Finish typically will both slightly darken the look as well as bring out the warm tones. Wax probably isn't altering it because it's not penetrating the wood fibers like a liquid would.

   When I'm working with stains, I always use the way the stained wood looks while it's still wet with stain as a good rough indicator of how it will look with a finish on it. Wood with just dry stain never looks the same as finished stain in my experience.

   I would suggest lightening your dyes a little by diluting with a little more water to weaken the color slightly. Then apply your varnish and see how it looks.

   Keep in mind the rule of thumb that higher gloss brings out warm tones while lower gloss brings out cool tones in the same exact color of stain. This happens for the exact same basic reason that applying a liquid finish changes your perception of the wood color - except that here it changes the way that light is reflected off of the surface and thereby changes the way that you perceive the color. If you are planning on rubbing your finish out as a means of altering the sheen, keep this in mind. An initial coat of finish which isn't the sheen which you eventually plan on achieving (via rubbing out) isn't going to give you a completely accurate idea of whether you've nailed the proper dye formula or not. It'll be very close... but, off a bit depending on which way you plan on rubbing the finish (glossier or flatter). In that case you'll need to rub it out to your desired sheen in order to know exactly how the final product will look colorwise.

   This same principle can be used to modify the color ever so slightly by rubbing out to a slightly higher or lower sheen, depending on whether you want to bring out warm tones or cool tones in the existing color. That might mean going with a slightly higher or lower sheen than you actually wanted... but, in my experience that difference in sheen is something that only the finisher ever notices. We are our own worst critics, after all. <G>

   Regards,

   Kevin

   
   

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   Edited 8/9/2003 10:24:52 PM ET by Kevin

   
   

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   Edited 8/9/2003 10:27:52 PM ET by Kevin

2. 
   forestgirl | Aug 10, 2003 08:51pm | #2

   Try asking in Jeff's forum at http://www.homesteadfinishing.com -- he generally will answer the tough ones personally.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 10, 2003 10:52pm | #3

   Kevin has given an excellent response. Super blond shellac and most waterborne clean finishes will get you closest to adding minimal color change. But, anything that changes the reflectivety of the light will change the percieved "color" or the intensity of the "color". This is particularly true of dye stains which are quite flat when they dry.

   "Understanding Wood" by Bob Flexner has some excellent info on coloring of wood using stains. You might want to get a copy.

1. 
   witsender | Aug 11, 2003 03:40am | #4

   Thanks to you ALL for the great thoughts...Kevin...it's especially

   interesting to me to see that i need to shift my thinking from surface color...to

   light...now that i see (the light) it makes enormous sense and in a way

   will give my trial and error a whole new dimension...i've been struggling

   for quite a while...you guys have made my day.

   cheers

   Pat

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 11, 2003 07:29am | #5

   Just keep in mind that your trial and error thus far hasn't been for naught. You're already happy with the color of your dyes. That tells me that you've got the right mix of colors. Now all you should have to do is change the intensity of the stain to compensate for the effects of the finish, as well as possibly altering the sheen of the finish once it's dry or by going with a custom sheen finish. Honestly... I think you've accomplished the hardest part of the job just working out the right mix of dyes. The rest is downhill from there. When I'm custom matching a stain color, I spend 95% of the time just working out the right mix of colors to accomplish my task. Once I've got that down, I can play with the intensity, darker or lighter, to get exactly what I'm looking for. But that's the easy part IMO. The hard part is coming up with the right mix of colors.

   One word of advice... and you're probably already doing this. But, just in case... : write down your exact formula including what proportions of water you used along with the amounts of dyes and even the brand of dye. In the short term it's faster to just add a little of this and a little of that. But, the downside is that when that batch is gone you have to reinvent the same color again if you want more. With an exact formula, you can replicate that exact same color a year or 5 years from now and it'll look the same as what you've done now. When I do a formula I write down everything... from the final grit of sandpaper used prior to staining... to the grit used to sand the sealer coat... how heavy of a sealer coat... what type of material used in sealer coats and top coats... how many coats of final finish...everything. And I keep a small sample of the actual finished wood with it. That way I can precisely reproduce it any time I want to. It also serves me well when I'm trying to come up with a similiar color on a different project. I look at my old formula of which colors I used and that will usually save me a lot of trial and error because I can make an educated guess about how to change that mix of colors to get a similiar, but different color.

   PS. One last thing here about light... The light source that you're matching under can make a difference too. For example, if you're color matching in a shop under standard florescent tube lights and you intend to install the finished goods in a bathroom where there's going to be a lot of natural sunlight streaming in thru a large window... the color that you see under the florescent lights isn't necessarily going to be the same as what you will see under natural light. You can buy color-corrected florescent light tubes, though. That's what I have in my mixing room at work so that I know exactly where I'm at colorwise with respect to the way light is reflecting off if it. In some cases the light source can make a huge difference, particularly with warm colors! Under cheap artificial lighting I may not notice that the stain is too yellow, for example.

   Regards,

   Kevin

   Edited 8/11/2003 1:00:36 AM ET by Kevin

1. 
   witsender | Aug 12, 2003 02:33am | #6

   Kevin

   again...thanks...for great info/advice...i've really lucked out...have a great source for the dyes (Old Mill Cabinet Shoppe...patient folks) and the Knots forum...what you were saying about Light and it's impact on final surface color...i lived in Paris for a time and used to see woman carrying fabric out from stores into the street...one day i asked why they did that...they told me that they wanted to see the "true" color... true color could only be seen in sunlight. So what you are saying makes great sense. As for records...yes i have begun to record my experiments on the back of my sample boards...but only recently and only out of desperation...my laziness got mentally expensive! As for color itself, i lucked out..had some training in color theory... that helps conceptually with the opaque/transparent thing. I  really, really like the waterbased dyes.  I hadn't heard very many woodworkers talk about using dyes on their pieces but I had the good fortune to find and read George Franks little book...i love that book!

   Sometime in the coming weeks i am going to try something...don't know if professional finishers like yourself already do this...i've never heard...but i am going to try to add dye into an alginate suspension (thickner) + urea salt (color setter) to see if i can overlap multiple dye colors on wood in controlled patterns, one color at a time. It was the irridescence in Curly maple that got me thinking about this. It's a technique i've heard textile designers talk about...it may not translate to wood...may flop...we shall see...but i want to find out...pores...i'm thinking...being pores.

    I wish i could get away with using no finish...meaning no surface inteference(varnish/lacquer/wax etc)...but ...since i have ruined many a white shirt after sitting in one of my perfect color/unsealed creations...i have had to give it up and ask for advice. I will try to make these new ideas an interesting part of the equation! ... i did break down this year and discover shellac..in all it's forms...and took to it like a religious convert...but you know it doesn't work in every situation . I have read "Understanding Wood Finishes"...but after a while my brain freezes. The questions i have are never it books...because they are nutty questions...meaning i ask myself...is it how a piece of furniture will be used that determines how you seal it?...or do you go for what's aesthetic/beautiful...the correct answer is probably obvious to most folk...but it gnags me... i'm always try to circumvent the system any way i can because of the color thing. I think what...you are basically trying to explain to me is that with trial and error...i can find a balance/formula that satisfies both objectives. I really appreciate the time you spent explaining how it works...novices can be such a pain in the butt!

   thanks

   pat