How do you get aniline dye to go into open grain. I know I have read about this but can’t seem to find the answer now that I need it. Any Suggestions.
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When you dye an open pore wood, like oak, the pores don't get color the same as the rest of the wood and they look off-white (like this photo).
Dyed Oak -
Click for full size photo
After dying the wood, use a wiping stain to color the pores and add more color and depth to the finish. You can use the stain right on the dyed wood, or you can apply a thinned coat of your finish to seal the wood and then apply the stain.
In the sample below, the wood was dyed, then half was sealed, and stain was applied to both sides. You can see the difference it makes to seal the wood before staining.
Dyed and Stained Oak -
Click for full size photo
The right side was sealed before staining. After the sealer dried, I sanded it lightly until it was smooth and dull. If I had gone over it again with some steel wool, it would have been smoother and the stain would have come out a little lighter.
Paul
F'burg, VA
Thanks Paul, Your response is very much appreciated. At the risk of feeling ignorant, Is a wiping stain a pigmented,oil base type stain?
It seems to me that I read somewhere about adding something to water based dyes (like dish detergent) to break the surface tension that allows the dye to penetrate open pores. Ever hear of anything like that?
HnG - a pigmented, oil-base stain is a wiping stain.
I haven't heard of using soap to get dye to color the pores. It doesn't seem a matter of surface tension - solvent dyes have the same problem (the dye in the photo is a solvent dye). It's more that the walls of the open pore remain clearly visible after the wood is dyed and produce the whitish color.
An alternative is to use a stain that contains a large amount of dye with a small amount of pigment. The dye will color the wood and the pigment will lodge in the pores and color them. The oil-base penetrating stains from Minwax and Benjamin Moore fall into this category. The lighter colors of Minwax are all dye, no pigment added. The oil in the stain acts as a binder to hold the color in the open pores.
Paul
F'burg, VA
Paul, I've had good success forcing dye into the open pores or grain of timber using a bristle brush and/or a rag. The technique I've come to use is to apply the dye and once the surface is thoroughly wet go over the surface fairly firmly with a rag well wetted, but not sopping with the dye in a circular motion. If not using a rag, I find that a lot of brushing will usually get the stuff in there.
I complete the process like others by wiping off in the direction of the grain with a dry rag to even it all up. It seems to work for me anyway. I agree that getting the dye down into those pores can be a bit tricky, your illustrations are helpful, and I like your suggestions too. Slainte. Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
water based dyes are more prone to this then alcohol based due to water tension. However both will produce the results.
ive worked the dye in a circular motion with rag, brush or burlap some.
Richard - I tried your technique today and got the same results as always. While the dye is wet, the pores look great. As the dye dries, the pores turn white. Today I used a non-grain raising (NGR) alcohol-based dye in two colors. The darker walnut colored dye I used in the earlier photo was a solvent dye. I stopped using water-base dyes some time ago since they produce the same effect and have the drawback of raised grain. I use good quality dyes, very lightfast, consistently good results - I just can't get the open pores to take the dye.
But its not a problem in my mind since I really like the look of following the dye with a wiping stain. The double dose of color is far more attractive than the dye or wiping stain alone - greater color intensity, eveness, depth, etc.
The two attachments are pictures of the two dye samples I did today - one in a cherry color, the other golden oak.
Paul
F'burg, VA
Paul,
In the first sample. What type of finish did you apply befort the wiping stain? I'm getting ready to try my first attempt w/ a dye and it's on oak.
Tom
Tom - Zinsser "Seal Coat" is a good product for this sort of application. Here's a link to the technical data (in pdf format) for the Seal Coat - http://www.zinsser.com/pdf/TDB/SealCoatTDB.pdf . If you're spraying, vinyl sealer is also a good finish to use in this application. If you mix your own shellac flakes, a 1 or 2 pound cut of dewaxed shellac will work in place of the Seal Coat (which is a 2 pound cut of dewaxed shellac).
Paul
F'burg, VA
Interesting Paul. It seems to work pretty well for me. I tend to use mostly water based dyes if wiping or brushing on-- they had a reputation for being less fugitive than spirit or oil based dyes, which of course was why the people that showed me favoured them.
I know you're an experienced finisher-- I can tell from your posts, and I consider finishing something of a weakness for me. I'm aware of the phenomenom that dyes can bridge pores because of surface tension. Maybe I work it a bit harder in the circular rubbing than you did, and for a bit longer?
I've even experienced bleedback from the dye getting into the pores and later being expelled, so I tend to keep a rag slightly damp with the dye handy just to blend in the tide marks.
I don't have much of a problem with the grain raising after pre-raising with warm water, a light sand back, and clearing out the dust-- I know you know all about that-- sorry, ha, ha. Anyway, I find your test results interesting, and maybe I'll do some experimenting myself to see if I can get results similar to yours. It won't be for a maybe a week or more because I'm rather busy on other stuff right now. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
As part of the trial, I saturated the wood (including the pores) with dye to give the pores every opportunity to take on the color of the dye. As the dye dried, there was some bleed-out from the pores from the excess dye. Once dry, the pores were white, and there were small dark spots from the bleed-out as pictured below.
View ImageRed Oak Dyed "Cherry" - Pores Bleeding Dye - Click for full size photo
The pores were filled with dye as usual, but did not retain the dye color as they dried. I have tried every way I can think of, short of soaking the wood in dye, to color the pores with dye and have never been consistently successful.
You can eliminate the pre-grain raising steps in your finish schedule if you prefer, and switch to solvent or NGR dyes. Water-based dyes are no longer exclusively the most lightfast type of dye and many of the dyes on the market are no longer prone to fading like they used to be. A number of these dyes are compatible with multiple solvents and can be used in a variety of ways.
Paul
F'burg, VA
Paul, I see what you're getting, and it's not out of the ordinary, I agree. I'll do some experimenting myself. It might take a week (as I said) to get around to it.
I'm thinking about, apart from dyes, of things like green copperas used on white oak, which (as far as I know) is only ever applied dissolved in water. A couple of white oak jobs that have passed through the workshop treated this way have been polished unfilled, and I don't recall there being a problem with it not penetrating the open grain. On the other hand, sometimes the job is filled after staining, as here.View Image
I agree with you regarding the effectiveness and colour fastness of modern NGR dyes. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
Richard - that's a "wild" look! I've seen a variety of colors used to contrast the pores, but I think you win the prize for "most unusual."
Is there a story behind the choice of color?
Paul
F'burg, VA
No real reason for the choice of the contrasting grain filling technique, Paul, except that I thought it would be attractive. I'd say it's based on the liming technique-- I'm trying to think, even though I currently live in the US, what the equivalent US name is? Pickled, Maybe?
Anyway, it's basically plaster of paris and water based powder paint, but the contrasting filler idea is not that unusual as far as I'm aware in the British mind, but maybe less normal in the US. I don't know.
What brought me up short were your comments on not being able to stain the open pores with water based dyes, yet I've just been paid for an article that describes how to do exactly that. Now I'm asking myself, because of your comments, "Am I wrong?"
I can spot a knowledgeable woodworker or polisher within two minutes of them walking into the workshop, or within half a paragraph of reading their verbal diaerrheoa(sp?), and I recognised that you know your subject well pretty quickly, ha, ha. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
Richard - liming is a better choice of terms than pickling or whitewash. Liming clarifies that the color application is specific to the pores.
It's not the technique I found unusual, it's the color. I've never had a request for such a bright, contrasting color. I just thought the choice of bright green may have had a story to go with it. [insert smiley emoticon here]
Congratulations on your upcoming publication! I enjoy your writing style/ability and am sure the article will be well received. Would it be okay to share the name of the publication on this forum?
Paul
F'burg, VA
Paul, I guess it would be alright to reveal that the magazine carrying the article is the current issue of Woodwork, issue 80. This information has already been bandied about in at least one other thread, so repeating the information here shouldn't hurt. Slainte.Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
Richard, I have been trying the techniques posted, sadly to say with no luck. I have tried dye, sealer, then a wiping stain, but still the pores are white. I also skipped the sealer. If I start with a wiping stain I can get pores to fill in. But I don't like the look of the wiping stain going on first. What am I doing wrong or not doing?
I should say that I am staining red oak a dark ebony (with a hint of brown). I tried rubbing, brushing but still have no luck filling the pores.
I was looking for your article in Woodwork but can't find a link to it. Can you provide a link?
HnG, I forgot to answer your question yesterday. There is no online link to the article in Woodwork if that's what you mean. The article is in the current issue (no. 80) which is (should be) on the shelves now.
Anyway, further to the images I put up last night, I rescanned one of the pieces of oak-- the piece coloured with ferrous sulphate (green copperas) and left the image full size, i.e., if i hold my piece of timber on the screen, the size matches. Perhaps you'll be able to see the result a bit better, and how well the stain got into, or didn't get into the open grain. The polished side is to the left, and I did a bit of colour tweaking and sharpening to try and show up the grain a bit better. I'm not sure I was 100% successful, as I may have sharpened the image a bit too much.
My scanner really is doing horrible things to images-- here it seems to have added a green/yellow stripe down the middle. I think I need to ditch this scanner and get a new one, ha, ha. Only at the extreme left and right of the image are the colours close to those showing in the piece of wood that I'm holding in my hand infront of the monitor prior to posting! And that's only my monitor-- other peoples monitors may show something else again. Slainte. View Image
Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
I don't know if anyone is interested in this thread still, but I couldn't stand my scanner doing horrible things to my photo's any longer. So I broke down and bought a new one. I rescanned the oak piece that was in my previous message, and got rid of the old image from my image host. Here's the new image. Very close in colour, etc., to the original. Just a reminder, this is a white oak stained with green copperas (Ferrous Sulphate) with a bit of shellac applied to one half. No grain filler, and so on. Slainte.View ImageWebsite The poster formerly known as RichardJ-- now Sgian Dubh-- again.
Richard, I had some luck wiping on the stain immediately after putting on the dye. I must expand and try some solvent based dyes.
Okay, guys, it took me a while to get to this sample dying job—I’ve been busy out of my workshop piddling about with resurrecting church pews all week, along with restoring a couple of pulpits at the same location. I’m reluctant to call myself knowledgeable about staining, dying, and polishing, because frankly, it really is a weak part of my furniture making ability.
The images I’ve scanned were a rush job this afternoon. I finished at the church thing a bit early, nipped up to the workshop, found a hunk of white oak, and a lump of ash. I planed it all, overhand surfaced, and thicknessed it, slapped it through the thickness sander at 120 grit, and gave it all a belt with the random orbit sander at 120 grit, and 150 grit. Then I wet the surface with warm water to raise the grain, let it dry, and knocked off the fuzz with 180 grit by hand with the grain, and blew it all to hell with some compressed air to get the dust out of the pores.
After that, I dyed with some stuff I had to hand, and, seen from the top in the attached image, white oak, and below that some ash, both with a water based aniline dye, and at the bottom, I stained some white oak with green copperas (Ferrous Sulphate) which is neither a dye nor a stain, but does change the colour of the wood.
Lastly, I had a bit of shellac handy in a spray can and masked off about half of each of the pieces, and gashed this spray on shellac crap pretty carelessly a couple of times—see to the right hand side of each piece of wood.
Bearing in mind that my scanner seems to be about on its last legs-- it produces a green or pink streak down the middle-- don't ask me why-- and that if I look really hard, I can see deep into the pores that the wood is not stained/dyed all the way to the bottom, I’d say that on the whole that the results of a simple dying job, plus a bit of polish are reasonably acceptable.
The images supplied are neither photographs, nor images collected from a digital camera. I simply laid the treated pieces of wood directly on to the scanners glass screen.
In the end, I’d say that it is hard to get water based dyes to properly penetrate all the pores of open grained woods, but that most clients don’t look that deeply, and that an overall impression probably does the trick. Over and above that, if a client wants an all over uniform appearance, then dyes are just the beginning, and that this can be complemented by such tricks as glazing, weak polish barrier coats, and the rest—which I’ll not get into. However, I’d guess that Paul, for one, has a shrewd idea where this might be leading, ha, ha. Slainte. View Image
PS. And as a last thing, if the image doesn't pop up somewhere in this message, then you could click on the thing below.
PPS. Tomorrow, I've vowed to get my sad old erse out of its pit to go and watch Six Nations Rugby live, as usual. That'll be a 7:30 am start with the greasy breakfast and pint or six of brown, frothing bevy,--- so there. All the rest of you woosies can get up and go to work if you like, or play in your workshops, but rugby is really much more important than a woodworking question, ha, ha. Can anybody spot a lump in my cheek where my tongue is buried?
Website The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh
Edited 2/22/2003 4:20:41 PM ET by RichardJ
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