Replies

1. 
   SgianDubh | Jan 25, 2004 08:31pm | #1

   In nearly thirty years of using similar techniques on a regular basis I've never experienced the problem you describe.

   Bear in mind that even if a water soluble glue is used to bond the veneer to the ground, e.g., hot hide glue, in the first place the hot/warm water is merely wiped on and allowed to evaporate.  It should evaporate pretty much almost completely in 20 minutes or half an hour-- not enough time to destroy the glue bond, after which it is sanded lightly. (You don't say what type of glue was used to apply the veneer, but commercially made boards usually use a water resistant or water'proof' glue anyway.)

   Similarly, the dye is flooded on quickly and after a few minutes the excess is wiped off leaving the residue to evaporate into the air.

   I'd only be concerned if the veneer surface was left flooded for a couple of hours or more, as might be experienced by a roof or plumbing leak-- I've seen plenty of damage caused this way, and fixed a few pieces because of it. Continual soaking as described can and does cause water soluble glues to soften and fail, and other problems such as warping, damage to polish, etc., but the techniques used for grain raising, dying and staining don't call for sustained soaking.

   I suppose it's possible that the relative air humidity could be close to, or at, 100% when you're doing the job which would slow down the evaporation of surface moisture, but if that was the case I guess I'd be working in a workshop with traces of mist in the air, and it would be a bit tricky to see one end of the workbench clearly from the other. Chances are I'd turn on a heater, or crank up the AC a bit, and if I couldn't do either of those, it'd be time to abandon the job and head down to the pub for a beer or seven until conditions improve, ha, ha--- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.

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   Edited 1/25/2004 12:34:55 PM ET by Sgian Dubh

1. 
   pghdan | Jan 25, 2004 09:32pm | #2

   Thanks for the info.  Like I said I haven't actually tried die staining the plywood veneer yet.  I just thought I would make sure first. I figured better safe than sorry.

2. 
   Kevin | Jan 28, 2004 08:12am | #10

   Ditto Sgian's experience. I've only used water-based dyes a few times, myself. But, they do dry amazingly fast.

   If in doubt - test it out first.

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2. 
   Floss | Jan 26, 2004 01:24am | #3

   You need to be careful when using water stains with woods that are really porous such as oak, mahogany, and ash. The surface tension of the water prevents the dye from filling the pores and you an be left with a funny looking stain job where the wood is colored but the pores are white. I generally use a grain filler to help color the pores but I think that using alcohol instead of water based stain can help solve this problem. Good luck.

   J.P.

1. 
   Sphere | Jan 27, 2004 01:30am | #4

   to add to that..surface tension statement. a capfull of ammonia will solve that .

   Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?

1. 
   Floss | Jan 27, 2004 02:33am | #5

   No problems with adding ammonia to water based stain? I was always told not to mix the two.

   J.P.

1. 
   Sphere | Jan 27, 2004 02:51am | #6

   ammonia is simply a 'surfactant' it makes water wetter..reduces surface tension. In almost all waterbased finishes it is the active surfactant. It will do the same in stain (within reason) were talking a capful to a gallon..abouts.

   Now with your OAKS high in tannin, do not get straight ammonia on it, or the fumes for an extended period if it is more than household strength ...that may get ya fumed finish where ya dont want it..but household ammonia at a cap full to a gallon..no problem.

   Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?

1. 
   Floss | Jan 27, 2004 08:14pm | #7

   Makes sense, I guess if the concentration is small enough. I thought that when alcohol and water were mixed it can cause a blush or white haze in the finish.

   J.P.

2. 
   Sphere | Jan 27, 2004 08:26pm | #8

   That would be the scenario with ALOT of alcohol and a LITTLE water..in a top coat.

   another ingredient in home made waterbased finishes is milk. It is the emulsifier that allows the "oil" resins to coalesce in water that has been surfacted.. White glue/milk/ ammonia..waterbase finish on the hoof.

   Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?

3. 
   Floss | Jan 28, 2004 03:13am | #9

   OK. By the way I didn't mean to change the focus of the original question. Thanks for the information.

   J.P.

2. 
   Kevin | Jan 28, 2004 08:16am | #11

   You need to be careful when using water stains with woods that are really porous such as oak, mahogany, and ash. The surface tension of the water prevents the dye from filling the pores and you an be left with a funny looking stain job where the wood is colored but the pores are white.

   That's an excellent point. I've gotten around that in the past by blending in a bit of water-based pigmented stain in with the dye. The pigments lodge in the pores and help even out the color. That's not always an option, depending on the color one is trying to achieve. But, it's a good fix when the color goal allows it. The one job that I used that approach on with good results was on White Oak and the color was a slightly grayish black.

    

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   Edited 1/28/2004 12:18:52 AM ET by Kevin

1. 
   Floss | Jan 28, 2004 08:49pm | #12

   What type of stain did you use? Minwax or something similar? I may try that in the future. Could be nice for some special effects.

   J.P.

1. 
   Kevin | Jan 29, 2004 06:52pm | #13

   I used Sherwin Williams water-reducible wiping stain concentrates and SW Dye Stain Concentrates. Ironically I used this blend in place of Minwax's "Ebony" oil stain because the Minwax simply wasn't dark enough. The sample swatches Minwax puts out looked pretty close to what I wanted. But, in real life it simply didn't perform as needed. Time is money, so I went with the water-based blend and it worked really well. It got the Oak very, very dark... very, very quickly.

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   "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud" - Sophocles.

1. 
   Floss | Jan 29, 2004 08:39pm | #14

   I mostly use Lockwoods dye stains but I have a hard time getting the same color on my piece as I do with the sample. I think I'll give the Sherwin Williams a try. Thanks. By the way, shellac tinted black also helps to darken ebonized wood.

   J.P.