I have a buffet to build for a friend and she wants me to use cherry,” but ” she wants it to be a light to medium brown. This will be my first time dying wood so I’m scared as H—, does anyone have some suggestions for me. I really can not mess this project up. It could mean a matter of life or death for me.” Really” She has alot of friends that are waiting to see how this Buffet turns out. thanks Chris
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Replies
Cherry is naturally light orange to brown (IMO)in color and darkens with age. What you see the day you finish it will be different in a year, a work in progress so to speak. I prefer Cherry with a just a touch of red tint added and as it ages it really is nice.
Steve Schone will probably chime in here, pay attention. Samson has done some wonderful cherry work and uses Hot Rod Varnish without color added. I just posted some end tables in the knots gallery section.
AZMO
I would urge you to think long and hard about staining cherry.
You could oil the piece to pop the grain, and then varnish it.
Depending on the ambient light that hits the piece, it will quickly darken up, and in a few years it will be truly spectacular -- a natural color that you could not achieve with a stain of any kind.
Too often people are impatient and don't want to wait for nature to take its course, which is unfortunate. The suggestion to set a sample piece out in the direct sun for a few days will give you and your friend a good idea of the process that will take place.
I couldn't agree with you any more. At the begining of our process she looked at several domestic hardwoods in my shop and in a book that I have. I'm afraid what happened id that she looked on line for a Buffet style that she liked. The buffet was labled warm cherry finish. It also said that it was made from select hardwoods, Para wood I'm sure but I believe it also said that it was made from cherry veneer's which was also mis-leading.Still even after I explained all this to her she still chose cherry. Yesterday when I took her the final quote she had a chair in her kitchen and she said that she wanted it a little lighter than that. I looked at the chair and it was dark brown. I Have made several projects from Black Cherry and personnaly I love the patina it forms after time. I'm not convienced that cherry is the right wood. Iv'e shown her a walnut table that Iv'e built that was just beautiful in color but she said she dosen't want that. "Sheeew" women, I love em but sometimes they can be very hard to understand. Would Maple be a better wood to color light brown than cherry? Thanks for your comments and suggestions not sure what I'll do now need more info Chris
You've heard from those who think cherry should be untouched color wise. I'll take the other side of the equation.
Cherry is undoubtedly one of my favorite woods to manipulate with color. I'm not talking about drastic changes but subtle undertones. Have you ever seen a piece of cherry with a wash of yellow or golden amber dye? Hit that with some type of oil like a watco or BLO applied lightly and it will make a believer out of you. Watch the reaction when a client sees it next to piece of cherry finished naturally.
I had to finish a large room built in cherry for a picky owner, designer and architect one time. Wainscoting to six feet with bookcases, two large doors, a large mantle and crown moldings.A big meeting ensued the day before I started. Lots of hand wringing and posturing by the big three. How would I EVER make this room look the way it HAD TO BE. I mean there were mismatched boards, a little sapwood here and there etc. I didn't over simplify it for them but it was easy.
I sprayed a pale yellow dye and followed that immediately with a brown amber dye. It took me about 3-4 hours to do both colors. I sprayed a coat of sealer on it and Voila, the room came alive with the unified look they were terrified couldn't be achieved. In actuality, it was very simple to do.
Once you get your feet wet with dyes and understand the attributes and or limitations, you're going to be a much better finisher. I guarantee it's a lot easier to understand than women.
Finally, everyone has explained how nicely cherry darkens with age. It's interesting no one has told you how severely it can sun fade in constant strong light.
Like I said, just the other side of the equation.
Good luck.
I agree that those undertones of color can be very nice, but not necessarily for the first dye project with cherry, particularly if the mandate is to stay light, Peter certainly knows how to make this work--he's the expert. If your cherry is quite light and seems to need enhancement then that's the way to go.
I also agree that cherry can fade with too much light for too long.. But unfortunately, so will dye. Dye (possibly in a toner form) could restore the faded look, but it will fade too unless the excess UV can be remedied. To really avoid that fading would take a colorfast pigment, and pigment is really hard to get to enhance the look of cherry.
Not for his first project? How about beginners luck? :) Gotta start somewhere.
Yellow and Amber dye. Are these Trans Tints? Behlen products? Always looking for more details. So how did the spray on sapwood work. I have found that dyes on softwood really absorb splotchy. Any pictures of first color, second color, final?
Thanks for your post
Morgan
Hi Morgan,
The dyes used were from W.D. Lockwood. I only use trans tints to spice up my shellac. As a primary colorant it's best in my mind to start with the powder. Much more economical too.
The dye worked fine on the sapwood. I can't say I've experienced the problem you stated.
Sorry to not have any pictures of that job. It was at least 15 years ago and I don't think I took any as I went along.
Picture this though: on a mahogany room with floor to ceiling panels, the owners came in after I sprayed a bright lemon yellow dye. If you've ever used dyes on a small scale you know that the dried surface looks somewhat appalling, certainly not what it will be when finished. The lemon was my ground color, a red brown went over that. Next it was sealed, filled, glazed and finished.
They approved the sample board which I had done in steps. They could see the ladder of steps but a two inch strip of yellow doesn't translate well visually to a full room of it. I still laugh when I picture their faces. I thought I was going to have to perform CPR on them.
There are two shots of a mahogany room on my website I did three years ago. The pictures are terrible though. I didn't get the chance to properly photograph it and they were sent to me by the builder. I used a dyed and glazed process for this room. The funny thing, there was another room in the house done in mahogany and finished by the cabinet makers.I know this will sound like sour grapes but it was that typical stained what I call "Carmel Candy" production mahogany. No nuance or glow of the wonderful striping so inherent to the wood.
I got a call from the builders wife after the owners moved in. She said and I quote " We (she and the owners wife) were standing in the library one evening and it just glowed..."
That's why I love dyes.
http://www.petergedrys.com
Peter thanks so much for the reply. The best thing about this site is learning new things. I have to admit I would never think of Yellow as a base color, but you are right in that the layers of colors do make the whole. OK you have piqued my interest to try it out on Some of Steves Scraps.
What do you mean by a glaze. Color added oil stain type glaze to soften the corners but a material that wipes off of the body? If it is sealed and filled not much will stick to it.
What type of finish do you use, sounds like a spray finish for such a big room?
Morgan, muckingaboutinthefinishroom....
Morgan,
Dyeing new wood with a gold or yellow is a standard practice in finishing. One of the better descriptions I've read was in a book called Violin Varnishes that was translated to English from German:
" Good results can be achieved by coating different color tones on top of one another; applying a yellow followed by a gold colored tone followed by a reddish brown coloring varnish. This color combination has been tried and tested and yields a beautiful hue."
Glazing is adding a translucent color over a sealed surface. One example;
a yellow dye, sealed with shellac or varnish etc. next is the glaze,it can be oil or water based. An example of an oil glaze could be a gel stain.
Just use any dye on a prepared piece of wood, any wood. Then put a stain on it, any stain. Do another sample and just put a stain on it. Let them both dry and then add a topcoat. The light bulb will go off I promise.
With due respect if you want to be a better finisher you need to hit the books and then the scraps. There is tons of info out there. You just need to read a bit.
Thanks Peter,
I have read some, but like any new language, it starts slow with a few words. When you own the words, it makes more sense. Or perhaps I am just a slow learner, and somewhat dislexic? I apprieciate your answers, most helpful. Thankfully, scraps are plentiful!
Morgan
I have to respectfully disagree with the comment " a natural color that cannot be achieved with a stain of any kind"
In my experience that is simply not accurate. You will find this necessity when matching old and new woods especially in antique restoration. I always tell someone if you notice what I did, I did it wrong.
To me adding color to cherry is the same as drinking your coffee black or with cream and sugar. All a matter of personal taste.
You need to work out what exactly she wants before you start buying large amounts of wood--involve her in the process if at all possible.. To my eye, cherry starts light to medium brown--a simple finish with an oil based finish would be what I would call in that color range. Get a sample--make sure is is heart wood, not the even lighter sapwood, oil it, or apply a coat of oil based varnish and let her look at it. Have her set it in a window for a few days. perhaps with part of it covered, so she can see the difference a bit of sun makes, or do the experiment for your self so you can demonstrate the color change.. That color sensitivity to light is part of the vibrance of cherry as a furniture wood.
Point out that the heartwood may continue to darken, sometimes getting well beyond "medium" brown. If that much darkening over several years is too much, then cherry isn't the wood. I once had a kitchen made from red birch, whose color is very similar to new cherry, though the grain pattern is a bit different. I used cherry for some counter edge trim and an island top. Initially, the color match was nearly exact, but as I had expected, over a three year period a significant contrast had developed. The red birch had barely changed color as the cherry deepened. So doing more that a small amount of dying to shift a color shade a little is going to mean relatively dark wood down the road.
Dyeing will have little effect on that darkening process. Cherry that has had sapwood dyed to match heartwood, can have that mis-match reappear after a few years, so unless it pays a real role in the design, sapwood needs to end up as secondary wood, or in the scrap pile.
Other aspects of working with cherry are interesting. Cherry doesn't always behave alike. I have a cherry table top where one board started just slightly darker than the others. The whole top has darkened but those boards that started just a little darker now stand as dark stripes to reproach my matching skills. If at all possible make important parts from the same tree if it is desirable to maintain a homogenous color. (It isn't always, some like the natural variabity.)
Bye the way, if your friend had indicated that she loves the rich dark look of antique cherry, we might have moved quicker to start working on dye/stain finishing schedules.
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/knots-gallery/becksvoort-table
A week ago I posted a photo of a "Beckswoort Table".
This item is about 8 years old, solid cherry and finished with a clear, wipe-on poly mixture. The exposure to sunlight is moderate - but it does see the sun.
I post this so your client can see what color aged cherry will mature to.
Jerry
Here in TX dying or staining cherry is a hangin' offense.
Try poping the grain w/ BLO and topcoating w/ garnett shellac.
northouguy,
That's why everything in Texas looks the same........ Using the term "popping the grain" should be the hangable offense. Now put a smile on that face.
Of course, the garnet shellac is a dye toner in itself. The only place popping the grain has ever made much sense to me was with figured maple. But there are ways, involving dye, of course, that can really make figured maple dramatic.
I never thought I would get so many responses on what I thought would be a somewhat srtaight foward question. I was ammused by depth of some of the conversations that took place over my " I'm sure" amature question about dying cherry wood.
My friend wants cherry and she wants it med brown so what am I to do. What I'm thinking might work and please tell me If I'm stupied for thinking this might work is to apply Five or Six coats of Waterlox, Original. the make oil varnish blend using BLO, Quick drying varnish and some BM Wood filler. 1 Part BLO, 1/2 part Varnish,1/2 part Wood filler and I was wandering If WD Lockwood Dye " water base", can be mixed with it as well in order to obtain the right color she wants.
Look I personnaly wouldn't color cherry myself but heck she's paying I'm just listining to what my customer wants. Because I'm an idiot and dont know what to do I was hoping to get a concrete answer. It's obvious that all you guru professionals have the experience and the know how to get me through this difficult challenge. I graciously except any advise that will help me, Including spelling and grammer lessons"Thanks once more Christopher
PS. What happened to the spell check on this page?
Peter 28 has given the best advise. First, work out your schedule on test boards where you will have worked through the entire finishing process from sanding to top coats. I'll step through this, but I suspect he may want to refine the
His advise was to use powdered water soluble dye, applied to bare wood--mixing dye with hand applied topcoats seldom works well. A two step process gives the most nuanced and lively results. Step one is a yellow dye--not mixed too strong, but definately yellow. It will look awful by itself. Water mixed dye is best applied rather wet--just not dripping and running. Also best to start at the bottom and work up, so if you do get a run or drip it will be on still damp wood and can be wiped off with little if any visual effect. Leave the surface wet, but wipe up any standing puddles.
But then he gets the brown color with brown amber dye applied while the yellow dye is (mostly) still damp. (That way the water in the first dye acts as a "conditioner" for the second dye) That gets your brownish color on most cherry, but leaves golden highlights. Sometimes, in part depending on how fast you can work, and your particular wood, you might want to let the first dye color dry, and then partially seal with a very light shellac wash coat--something less than 1/2 lb. cut. T^oo much sealing and the dye won't penetrate enough in enough places. I'll add that you want to keep the dye pretty subtle likely ending up with a mix more dilute than the usual 1 oz. per quart of Lockwood dye ( but it is best to start concentrated and add distilled water as you work through your test boards.)
Then for top coats. The Waterlox is an excellent varnish, and will give you a nice, almost gloss finish that will be a film on the surface. But, you can't use an oil/varnish mix over the varnish, only over unsealed wood. Mixing in the pore filler is unnecessary, patictularly with a diffuse porous wood like cherry which doesn't have open pores.
You can use the oil/varnish mix instead of the waterlox varnish, in which case you would apply, let penetrate for a short time, and then wipe off all excess. In the end, this gives a satin, "in the wood" finish. Probably doesn't take more than about 3 coats. You don't want to try to build a film with this kind of finish.
You can't mix water mixed stain into oil based topcoats.
Steve, thanks for taking the time to define the sequence, the result and the goal of each step. For me, you have broken a language barrier and opened a door for a different starting point in finishing Cherry.
Could I assume that you could apply an oil/varnish finish first and then coat with Waterlox over the this? Points of wear such as the top?
Thanks again to you and Peter!
Morgan
Hey Steve,
Great reply. As you can see I had the day off Friday. Is that what it feels like to be retired?
Ziggy,
One concrete answer you've just learned in finishing: there are very few. Beauty is in the eye.
Concerning mixing filler into a varnish and using it on cherry, and I know where you came up with that one, have at it. Personally it is not something I would even consider.
Ask yourself this, can I use a finish right out of the can, or am I better off making some mixture that is not available in any store?
You can answer this question, do oil and water mix?
Last piece of advice, KISS.
Peter... You wrote earlier about spraying on a yellow dye then following that with a sprayed on brown, etc. I've used dyes quite a bit but not with such refinement. I've always simply mixed the various colors to get one dye that gets applied with the assumption that the two colors will simply mix on the wood anyway. Obviously, it doesn't work that way. So, could you elaborate on what is happening with the two separate applications? And a bit about spraying the dye in place of direct application (using a sponge, for instance).
Thanks.
Not Peter, but I'll take a stab. The key is that the second dye coat is going on while the first coat is still damp. The water absorbed in the wood, filling the dense spots, but leaving room in the more porous areas controls how much of the second coat of dye will be absorbed. The effect of this is two fold. One it lets some of the yellow dye absorb little brown over it leaving that area as a gold highlight. Other parts absorb more of the brown. The good thing about this is that it is the natural character of the wood, with denser and more porous areas that determines where the high lights are, giving a very natural look.
If you let the yellow dye completely dry before the second coat, then you will get more of the mixed dye effect that you mentioned. That's why if that timing happens, you can retreive the situration by using a very light shellac wash to partially seal the surface. Again dense parts would be more fully sealed, accept less brown, becoming gold highlights, the porous parts become the browner parts.
In either case, you get a more nuanced coloring than mixing the dye before application, which gives a homogeneous coloration. Overdone, particularly with the shellac wash coat, you could get a zebra blotching if you try hard enough. But that would be apparent on the test boards.
Thanks for that, I believe I have my problem solved. Talked to my friend and I think she has chosen quarter sawn white Oak. Heck fuming should be much simpler uh?, Just kidding .
Like you said keep it sweet and simple. I've ordered some WD lockwood samples to play with. But now it doesn't matter I'll probably just use dark Danish oil, shellac and water lox org. This forum is pretty cool___. theres just a world of information here to soak up and use. Thanks again cheers
Hi Sapwood,
I assume when you mix up a batch of dye you will mix the colors separately then add them to each other to get a color you like.That's basic.
Let's try an example here using a medium yellow and brown amber both from W.D. Lockwood. If I take equal amounts of each color and mix them together I'll get a light brownish yellow. The medium yellow has a light greenish cast to it while the brown amber will be a brown with an orange cast to it.
When I analyze that color here's my mind set:
When I mix the two, the cooler component of the yellow (greenish) will neutralize the warmer orange brown. Specifically red and yellow make orange right? Well green and red are opposite on the color wheel and are complimentary colors. In other words, green kills red. When I add a green component it neutralizes the red in the orange and turns it brown, and in this case yellow brown. So the 5050 mixture we just made, a light brownish yellow is pretty neutral.
Now let's layer it separately on the wood, say a door:
I'll apply the yellow dye first, full strength. Here's where practice and experience kick in. I like to apply my second color, the brown amber, when the first color is about half dry. If I wait until the first is completely dry and apply the second color, it will reactivate the first one and pull or reverse it. I don't wipe the second color very much either. Not like you would an oil stain. I'll let it set into the wood and just remove the excess as it's drying. I know this would be much easier to demonstrate to you than just explain but....
What transpires is we have a visual mix of the two colors. The brown amber still has all it's strength and visual warmth yet there is a golden glow underneath that comes through.
I know for many woodworkers this is completely unwarranted or necessary as the wood should be left untouched. Beauty is in the eye, neither way is right or wrong. One note; I've taught a lot of people finishing and one thing that invariably comes out in color class is their fear of it. Remove the fear and guess work from the equation, and it allows one to comfortably use color or not as they see fit.
I spray dyes for expediency. When I do rooms, time is money. When I do cabinets with lots of doors or components, time is money. Besides that, I can really have fun with shadowing and highlighting that just can't be achieved by hand.
PHEW, sorry it got so long winded.
You need to find the right stain to get your color.
It is better if you try to do your finish in a panel first before you do the case.
Sho the color panel to your client and discuss it unti he approve the color.
Than you can start to finish on the product.
You can view my article about how to use color wheel in wood finishing in here:
http://www.wisnofurniturefinishing.com/2010/02/color-wheel-for-wood-furniture-finishes.html
Good luck
wisno
Just and FYI, when reviewing your web site, it was taken over by a virus trying to do a bogus inspect of my machine.... You should have web person do a check on security measures....
AZMO
How did you notice the virus - how did you stop it - any damage done ?
Regards,
SA
Damage
SA,
I have been without my PC since I posted this. It was not the site and link posted here. It was triggered at the same time by opening a new window. I picked it up from a friend who I thought had emailed a link for me to check out. Turns out his email address and contacts had been mined by a bot. I recieved one nasty virus by opening it.
So lesson learned was to open links only when verbiage is surrounding it.....
Later AZMO
Peter and Steve
Not long winded at all. It is this sort of experienced help that I need to take my finishing to a higher level. For too many years I allowed myself to be satisfied with what I thought was the natural color of wood. What I was really allowing was complacency and a bit of laziness (and that fear you spoke of). Then I realized the designs I was creating could be all that more interesting with complex color. So, no, I don't mind detailed explanations at all now.
Can that second coat of dye be hand applied? It seems like the action of sponging or brushing it on would tend to drag quite a bit of the first dye out and mix the two on the surface. I can understand the benefit in spraying for speed and because of it's a hands-off technique.
I'd probably be doing more finish experiments than asking questions right now, but for the near future I'm shopless. We recently relocated and the new shop is still on the drawing board. In a few months I'll be back at it.
Thanks for all this input.
Sapwood,
I didn't mean to make it complicated. Applying the second color dye by hand is not a problem.I don't always spray it just when I need to get a lot done. When I hand apply I use either a pad made up like I would for padding shellac or even industrial paper towels that are doubled and folded.
You can apply and just lightly remove the excess. You'll see when you get going and making samples it's not that hard.
I thought about this after the last post; you know how I told you about doing the yellow first and then the brown amber? Try a sample in reverse. Do a brown amber and follow that with the yellow. You'll have a color that looks like it has been around for a while and has mellowed. Color is an interesting and infinite medium.
I'm doing some finish work for a young cabinet maker that is very much a traditional wood worker. He does very nice work but doesn't know much about finishing. His sum total was usually applying a couple of coats of waterlox. Pretty easy to do. He said, the other day, pretty much what you said about color. In the past he was adamant the wood completely speak for itself.In some instances that makes perfect sense, there are some boards that are priceless by themselves.
However, he's building a pantry that's going in an early 20th century home and the wood, white oak, has to match the original white oak woodwork which is a deep golden red brown. Just applying a couple of coats of waterlox won't do it as the new wood will look incredibly dull in comparison. Here's where color knowledge comes to play. A little makeup and the new will blend seamlessly with the old.
A line that always stuck in my head is from a book "The Interaction of Color" by Josef Albers.
"The intelligent use of color always outweighs the intuitive"
Hi Joe,
As always, great questions.
1 How much is too much? I would let it set a little and remove most of it. One of the great attributes of a dye is it will never turn muddy like a stain due to it's transparency. If I left some excess stain in a panel it will dry as a much darker, muddy spot because of it's semi opacity. One area I am adamant about removing excess is on doors where the hips of a panel fit into the rails and stiles. I know you've heard me say this before.
We know water will migrate in there, you know the path of least resistance. I make sure as I'm wiping the dye that I blow some air into the corners. If you don't have a compressor a good deep breath will work (especially if you don't smoke) You'll be surprised at how much dye will be forced out of there. Fail to do so and the trapped excess will dry and leave a radiated halo of color. How do I know that? It won't be muddy but will be an intense spot of color that can be fun? to blend in.
2 Normal colors? please explain. This theory is as old as the hills and is the ground for many finishes and wood varieties. I don't find poplar dyed to imitate cherry exotic but at times required.
A seminar? When I'm invited to do so. Maybe a video here?
Peter
Peter and Steve,
Your descriptions have inspired me to try out a two step dye job on the cherry step stool that I am almost finished with. (I will, of course, practice on scrap first.) I wanted to make sure I get the right color dyes for the experiment. For the first application of yellow I find a WD Lockwood color of Early American Maple Medium Yellow (#142) and for the second layer of brown amber an Early American Maple Brown Amber (#141) on the Tools For Working Wood web site - would those be good ones to start out with? I have seen recommendations to dye mahogany with a dillute but bright orange dye (the color of Gatoraid) to start out with which makes me wonder if that particular yellow is bright enough?
Thanks for all the great posts.
Chris
Chris,
Boy you sure are going to p!$$ off the purists.It's good to try something new.
The #142 is a good choice, this is one of my staple colorants, as is the #141. The color Antique Cherry is a more fiery color than the brown amber. It would be good to have if you want to "warm" up the brown amber. It's an orangebrown. According to the folks at Lockwood that particular color sells well in the mid and southern states.
Dyeing mahogany a bright orange is done a lot. Lemon yellow is another. Lockwood has a color called golden yellow orange that will light up a background. You can dilute it or use it full strength. A bright dye underneath will support deep colors on top. For instance:
orange dye with a Brown Mahogany gel stain for a deep rich brown with golden highlights.
Use the color wheel and your imagination. You'll be surprised what you come up with.
OK, Peter, here's a new angle. Much of mu house has oak woodwork. When it weas installed 20 years ago, the painter used a straight oil-based walnut stain, and then a varnish top coat.
SOmetime this year, I am going to pannel the entry way in white oak. As you can see into other rooms, I am a bit leery of making a dramatic change in color unless it went all they way -- as in oriental laquer or something -- which I am not going to do. Is there way to get a nice glow and not jarringly deviate from the existing woodwork?
J
AND yet another question:
Lockwood offers several kinds of dyes, including concentrated mixing colors and fiber reactive colorants. What kind are you recommending for use?
J
Joe,
Lockwood is a big supplier to the textile industry also, thus the fiber reactive dyes.
The concentrated mixing colors are the base colors used in many of their wood tones. A little of these goes a long way.
Lockwood has, as you know, a large variety of colors already made with names like Chippendale Red Brown, Antique Yellow Brown Mahogany etc etc. They make up these color formulas so the woodworker has a point of reference without having to mix his own powder formula.
You could use any of them under a stain or glaze. It's just easier to buy Medium Yellow or Georgian Brown Mahogany if you like these colors as they are consistent.
A disclaimer here: I am not in any way an employee or agent for Lockwood. I just like their products as have many wood workers and companies since the late 1800's.
Peter
Joe,
I love a question that answers itself!
Peter
Peter28,
Thanks much for the clarification. I will order all four of those dyes and start experimenting. I have used a single dye followed by a gel stain glaze (shellac in between) with a WB top coat (Target's USL although I hear they have replaced that with a newer formulation) on my last few projects and I am amazed at the increase in the depth of the finish. I agree that it is all in the eye of the maker and there are times when a simple clear coat or a Watco type finish are great but at times it is nice to go for something different.
Thanks again for all the information.
Chris
Chris,
You're welcome. Keep us posted on your progress.
Peter
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