Just stepping over from Breaktime to Knots in order to ask a question…………
I want to refurbish some recently scrounged vintage furniture that is water spotted.
The furniture is of bleached BLOND oak (???) and dates to the early 1950’s and is of high quality construction…………but the finish is a problem! If you let water wihin 20 feet of it …………oooops……….a water spot/ring.
How can the water spots be subdued and then the surface replaced with a water durable finish?
Thanks……………………..Iron Helix
Replies
Iron, I think they used to call that finish "limed oak." As I recall, it was achieved by first giving the raw wood a rubbed on & rubbed off coat of white paint with a pinch of green pigment in it, followed by a sealing top coat of varnish...At least, I was able to match it back then using this technique.
It sounds like the piece you have might have gotten a top coat of shellac, rather than varnish, considering its tendency to water spot. If you can remove the spots without cutting through the pigmented base coat, maybe all it needs is a more durable top coat.
That finish could also be nitrocellulose lacquer as it would also be prone to water spotting fairly easily and was a popular finish of furniture manufacturers in the 50s.
You might try using a soft lint-free cloth pad dampened with denatured alcohol. Try it in an inconspicuous place first working carefully but giving the alcohol a few minutes if necessary to see if it removes the top finish. If it does, then it's likely shellac. You just might succeed in removing those water spots, depending upon the severity and nature of the damage, by just well-dampening the surface with the alcohol and letting it evaporate off again. If you're lucky............
If the alcohol doesn't get the job done, then that topcoat may well be nitro. The solvent for nitro is lacquer thinner, but it will be more difficult to get the finish off without damaging the underlying surface. I guess I'd recommend that you try the pad on and evaporate approach again, prior to resorting to an attempt at a full-blown removal of the damaged finish. Just put enough on the surface to well-dampen things and let it dry off again. Then see what you've got left for remaining visible damage before you try something more aggressive. Again, if you're lucky.........
If this piece has seen the Pledge cloth over the years, you may well find yourself back here for more info when your attempt to apply new finish results in "fish eye". To avoid this, your first coat of new finish should either be shellac (preferably de-waxed) or you'll need to add some sil-flo to most any other finish you might choose.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/19/2003 2:02:55 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Looks as if I have my experimentation phase before the resolution...........I'll unpack the furniture in the next two weeks and follow your suggestions. A report back will let you know how well we have dealt with reality.................many thanks!
More thoughts........let's hear them!!!
..............................Iron Helix
I don't think this is the limed oak finish that indeed was popular. This may be a Haywood Wakefield type of furniture which you really do want to preserve the finish as is. You may want to just remove the white marks (Howard's Restor-a-Finish may work) and then protect the top with a piece of glass. I have forgotten what the piece is so don't know if this is practical.
Post a picture if possible.Gretchen
Hey Goldy, I sure would like to know where you buy your bifocals. You picked up a lot more clues from those photos than I could.
Take a look at that wood again, considering the possibility that it's mahogany rather than oak. There was a great deal of quite nice furniture back in those days that was blond mahogany.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl, that 1950s "blonde mahogany" was achieved via a bleaching process...So, if that's what we're dealing with here, it would be a much less fragile finish. The only issue would be to repair the top coat and one of the multi solvent "refinishers" (Formby's, et al) would probably work. Once bleached, there's nothing to worry about with respect to the underlying pigment getting moved around.
Another thought though; if this piece has a blonde mahogany look, it could be a wood called primavera; Cybistax donnell-smithii. This Central American species looks like mahogany, except it has a light creamy-amber natural color...and it was a popular wood for achieving the blond look up until about the mid 20th century when it started to get scarce and pricey. Either way; bleached mahogany or primavera, the underlying pigment would be stable and not a problem in repairing the top coat.
Thanks for the input Jon. Can I take advantage of your presence to invite your comments in the Gen.Disc. thread about Lyptus?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl, I don't see anything in Gen.Disc. regarding Lyptus?...But then this Knots Board is still a maze for me.
Lyptus is a hybrid Eucalypt they are now growing in Brazil. It apparently grows like a weed down there (now that they've removed it from the negative influences of it's native Australia :o) ) and they are touting it as a mahogany substitute. I haven't worked with it yet, but I'm skeptical that you could cross two eucalypts and end up with anything remotely like genuine mahogany...Although, some of the eucalypts are pretty nice cabinet woods in their own right, so it might still be a positive development.
...I'm all in favor of experimental forestry (providing it doesn't involve trying to "manage" a rain forest.)
All this speculation....had to pull out some of the pieces!
Inside a drawer was a stamp..."Oak Master MFG" sold by Lammert's of St.Louis, Mo. And on close examination I would have to say it is oak veneer of ??? finish.
I have attempted to attach some photos for your consideration.
Thanks.........................Iron Helix
Here are three jpg's...finally..............................Iron Helix
Well that did not work either....someone please troubleshoot me for these photo attachements!!!! Glich....mental midget....no memory left!!!!! Help!!!!
Edited 1/20/2003 9:13:02 PM ET by Iron Helix
Hi Jon, here's the link:
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=10073.1
I'm hoping to find someone who's worked with the stuff. Also was curious about Kingwood.
Re: navigation at Knots -- Top of left side of browser "Show Discussions...." How do you have that set? I generally use "Unread Discussions" and sometimes change it to "Unread Messages to Me" to make sure I'm not neglecting someone.
Drop me a line if you want help. I've found the system very efficient once I figured it out.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Again..............
.......................................Iron Helix
Hey!!! I finally master the attachment for the pics and everyone has disappeared!
Please take a look and give me your opinions....................Thanks!!!
..................Iron Helix
Iron, I'm still here, but the fact is I've spent most of the afternoon trying to figure out how to diplomatically tell you your camera skills need a little work :o)
Seriously, I can't tell from the photos what the finish might be. It appears to be a little too warm to be limed oak...In fact, it looks pretty much like nothing more than shellac or possibly one of the "clear" varnishes from that era that has had enough time to turn amber-orange.
The big advertising pitch on the new polyurethane varnishes back in the 1950s was how they would "never yellow"...and what a joke that's proven to be.
I think the suggestion made earlier; to try a series of solvents (alcohol, lacquer thinner, mineral spirits) on it to see what dissolves the finish is probably the only way to discover what it might be. If nothing cuts it, then it's probably one of those 'miracle" polyurethanes from that Age of Innocence. The one promise they actually kept was that, once cured, nothing would cut them. If that's the case, the water marks would have to be showing up in something put on top of it...like a lifetime's worth of furniture wax and lemon oil.
Your notions all sound valid to me.
Water spotting in applied wax?.........I don't know why, but that didn't occur to me, but Iron may be glad you thought of it if removal with some mineral spirits is all that needed.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Jon Arno:
Diplomacy may not be one of your skills, but an obvious fact stands by itself.
I would be horribly offended if it were not true that my camera skills often S U C K !
To All..............
...I've printed this thread for use when I start to rework the pieces this summer, and I am depending upon all your collective advice and expertise to aim me in reasonable direction.
I have never dealt with "nitro" on "limed oak" (sounds like a new & deadly bar drink), but the experience will be good.
Thanks for giving me your knowledge.....I really appreciate it!
.........................Iron Helix
This is NOT limed oak which is just a paint glaze method. If you do the test for what the finish is as has been suggested you will be on a better track. I really also like the idea that was put forth that the rings may be just in a wax layer. Clean it first with mineral spirits--that will not harm any finish and will clean it up (as has been suggested also in the thread--I am just "seconding").Gretchen
Thanks Gretchen.............Plain 'ol Paint Thinner first!!! Then to higher solvencies!
.......................Iron Helix
My daughter was intrigued with the "old style" blonde furniture and moved it all to the completed portion of her new home (basement) where we investigated the finish.
We found that it was lacquer and it cleaned very well except for the very badly water spotted areas. There is a dining suite, credenza/buffet, desk, end table, coffee table, lamp table(badly damaged), and the radio cabinet.. all made by Grand Rapids Bookcase & Cabinet Co. in Hastings(?), Michigan.
The better pieces are being cleaned with lacquer thinner and coated with satin urethane, sanded and recoated until smooth. Lots of work...one piece at a time!
Thanks again or the info, advice, and support.............Iron Helix
The better pieces are being cleaned with lacquer thinner and coated with satin urethane, sanded and recoated until smooth. Lots of work...one piece at a time!
Wait. It seems to me that if you "clean" with lacquer thinner you will remove some of the finish. Clean with mineral spirits which will "clean" without harming the finish. For the water spots you might try Howard's Restor-a-Finish to remove them and then topcoat with your poly. Probably need to lightly scuff sand.Gretchen
Mr. Iron………..sir,
Well, I see no one else has ventured to stick their neck out on this…… so I'll risk it, I guess. Fools rush in, where..........
The buffet and the coffee table appear (in the pics anyway…………..which can be very deceptive) as if they may have come from the same manufacturer and same line of furniture offering. Wild guess, judging from the color, is that they may not have any artificial coloring at all, but may just be sporting a naturally developed patina. IF this is the case, you could likely and safely remove the finish, then do little if any sanding , recoat with new finish and end up with the same basic color. Then again, I could be judging it wrong from the pics and the buffet may be carrying a coat of stain or toning lacquer under the top coat(s) of finish.
The phono/radio cabinet appears to be from a different manufacturer of at least from a different offering and appears as though it is carrying artificial coloring under that clear finish. It appears as though it may have some sort of "liming" treatment as I think I see a whitish cast in the pores of the wood. IF I'm right about that and you strip the piece down all the way, you'll be in for some extra experimentation and work to reproduce the exact same look, as the old is apt to come off during the stripping process. Reproduction can be done, no doubt, but finding the right combination of color and application technique can be time consuming. Don't think of it as a hassle, but rather as a challenge and things will not seem so frustrating as you venture forth………..should you decide to accept this assignment.
It also appears that these pieces are finished with nitro (and a poor job at that, by my standards…if I dare say so). I'm judging the use of nitro from the reflections off the finish in the pics……… and that's what it looks like from here thru these eyes.
I think I'd still try padding some lacquer thinner (or LIGHTLY misting with a spray gun) just on surface of the damaged areas and see what develops. If the damage isn't too deep, you might get lucky. If this is nitro, an appropriate surface prep, a little experimenting, a few drops of Sil-Flo and a spray gun in the hands of an experienced refinisher may yield a repair and fresh coat of finish all in one fell swoop without risking any damage to the original color. Nitro is an evaporative finish and the new would meld right in with the old and become one with it. The Sil-Flo is to combat the presence of silicone from furniture polishes that I'm 99.9% sure have been used on these pieces over the years.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Sorry I didn't get in on this earlier. Might have saved you some trouble.
Just so you'll know where I'm coming from, I've been doing woodwork for money since I was a little kid in the 1950's. Ran furniture factories for about 25 years, including finish design and training. Have done custom woodwork, LOTS of custom and faux wood finishing, as well as refinishing and antique restoration. I now do furniture repair and touchup full time for two reasons -- I'm getting older, and it's pretty easy money. I certainly don't know everything, but I can speak (write) with some confidence:
The finish on your pieces is a "blond" finish, most probably done in the late 40's, early 50's. The wood is not bleached -- such a process is way too time consuming and expensive for a production process. Instead, the color is essentially a two step process. After defecting -- correcting off- color spots and streaks in the wood, a white or off- white undercoat is applied to the wood, and then a second, darker coat of glaze or a lacquer stain is applied. There was a variation in specifics from one maker to another, but the principle is consistent.
These finishes are very hard to touch up or repair if you get into the color coats. I'm speaking from lots of experience here. When I get blond finishes that are damaged into the color coats, I just refinish the whole panel to match, rather than trying to do a spot touchup -- it's easier and quicker for me, although others might have better touchup techniques.
The topcoat is most certainly straight nitrocellulose lacquer, and the coatings used at this time were very susceptible to water marks. These marks usually don't run very deep, and can usually be corrected with light abrasion (rubbing compound or wet sanding with fine w/d sandpaper using mineral spirits as a lubricant) or by spraying lightly with an appropriate solvent such as blush eraser or a mixture of lacquer thinner and retarder. Sometimes just re-coating with aerosol touchup lacquer does the job.
Cleaning can best be done with a vegetable soap like Murphy's oil soap and water -- damp, not wet, followed by washing with mineral spirits or VM&P naphtha. That'll take care of dirt, oil, and wax. If you need something stronger, you might try a product made for removing wax from furniture, like Behlen's or Mohawk's Dewaxer. Kerosene based hand cleaners get used a lot by antique dealers, but I never have tried them.
DO NOT TRY TO CLEAN WITH LACQUER THINNER! You will most certainly ruin the finish beyond repair.
Silicone contamination and the resulting fisheyes will probably be a problem with any kind of recoating except shellac. The consevative approach would be to just rub out the finish with rubbing and polishing compounds. Automotive products like Meguiars work great on furniture, in my experience, or you can use specialized furniture products if you wish. Steel wool with a lubricant works OK too for a satin look.
If there is not enough finish to rub out, padding on shellac would also be a viable way to go, but takes a little practice to get a smooth finish. Yopu can always rub it out after it dries. If you mix up your own from flakes, is will have a lot more water resistance than the old lacquer, but alcohol will still be a problem. I would definitely not recoat with polyurethane. You'll most likely have adhesion problems, and it just looks bad.
If you try to re-coat with lacquer, I'd use a barrier coat of shellac, put silicone additive in the lacquer, and still put the first couple of coats on thin and dry before appling full coats.
I know this is both too much and too little information, but I hope it helps some.
Michael R
Goldhiller..... i'm still amzed at the accuracy of your "eye" upon the "photos"....pretty well dead on!
I mispoke....the pieces were not cleaned....the finish was removed with scotchpad and laquer thinner (sorry WoodWiz). And actually came out fairly nice as the color of the old finish was washed into the minor water spotted areas and restained same.
Woodwiz......yup .....a little late on a couple of pieces, but the rest have yet to be done. Varathane has already been padded on.... rubbed out and recoated. so far it looks very good. No fish eyes!! Your description of the furniture finish sequence seems to match.
The very worst pieces have severe water damage....potted plants in the same position with the same weeping saucer for years. These will require sanding and sealing and then an opaque glass top to cover the disaster.
We checked in with a local furniture collector and asked his opinion of value....not much he said. Not of sufficient quality and with no name brand recognition the pieces are not collectables/antique. "Put'em in the next yardsale!"..he said.
Daughter thinks they are "COOL" 50's stuff, but wants to be able to use them with a durable finish since their firstborn arrived 18 months ago...and "sippy-cups" leak...so she said nitro is out and varathane is in...even though the pro's nixed it.
We will work through the pieces eventually..... I may even try to nitro one or two for the experience.
Thanks to all for direction and information....................Iron Helix
You might be surprised that your daughter's "cool stuff" is a better evaluation than your dealer's "next yard sale" advice.Gretchen
Gretchen you take the same vane as my daughter, Tabi. She wants to make it part of her decor...retro modern! She cares not for the man's opinion.
..............................Iron Helix
My daughter and her husband have an antique store--that stuff sells--and it ain't cheap. I don't particularly care for it but folks are doing a lot of different things these days and making it look good.Gretchen
IMO, the coloration of the piece you're dealing with could be the result of any of those mentioned. Any chance of a posting a pic or two?
I forgot to mention that when you're ready to finish this piece, it would likely be advantageous if the shellac barrier coat was applied with a spray gun. Brushing the shellac onto the piece could easily result in dragging any silicone that's present up onto the surface again causing problems in the final coats of whichever more durable finish that you choose.
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