Hi all,
I am in the process of completing my first ‘involved’ woodworking project, a cradle. I made it out of paduak and it is a mission-esque style. I am interested in a relatively easy to apply finish (I think I have abandoned the idea of filling the pores) which will look good with this wood.
I have some shellac and some “Tried & True” linseed oil finish and have have gone back and forth on which to use. I am also open to other suggestions.
I have so much time invested in building the cradle, I have become a little gun shy about finishing it and screwing it up.
Matt
Replies
Matt,
You no doubt have lots of little pieces, cut-offs and the like, of that expensive wood that I can't afford to look at, so experiment! That's what all those little pieces are for!
Try some shellac on one piece. Try filler and shellac on another. Try the varnish oil; try sanding in the varnish oil. Put some varnish oil on a piece, then some shellac... Try every reasonable finish you are considering and then see which one you like best: check the appearance, the ease of application, how long it takes to completion, and so forth. All these things are considerations as to what finish is "best" for you.
One thing that might affect what you see as realistic choices is that oil can take a good long while to completely cure. The odor can remain long after the oil is applied.
BTW, I save all my test pieces. With an indelible ink pen I write on the back of each what I did, what kind of wood it is, how long it took, and so on. They're a great resource.
Alan
Alan,
Thanks for the reply. I probably should take your advice. I've got enough time into this project that putting together some finish samples is the way to go.
One potential issue is what Nikkiwood noted about paduak changing color. That was one of the reasons I'm leaning against pore filling because what blends in and looks good now may not continue to work as the wood darkens over time.
Matt
I assume you know that Paduak will not stay that nice red/orange color; Over time, it turns a root beer type brown -- no matter what finish you use.
I don't think you can go wrong with a wipe on oil finish of one type or another.
I would start with a penetrating oil finish (Watco natural Danish oil, or BLO), maybe using 2-3 coats. I would sand it while wet with the oil with 400 grit snadpaper to fill the pores some. Since the pores are filled with wood dust, the filler will change color with the rest of the wood as it ages.
I would NOT use shellac on the piece. It's a crib, and babies lick, chew, barf, pee and all sorts of other things that will damage the shellac finish. I would use either a poly varnish, or clear lacquer topcoat, but only after letting the oil cure for over 7 days. Whatever you decide, remember that rugrats eat and lick cribs.
There are reports (published in FWW) that you can keep Paduak its rich red-orange color by applying 3-4 coats of Armor-All (yep, the stuff you put on vinyl for your car) to the wood before applying any other finish. It contains UV blockers that will protect the wood color, but (IMPORTANT) it also contains silicone. You cannot apply lacquer or varnish on Armor All treated wood (okay, you can, but you'll get fisheyes). You are safe with the oil finish.
I am just finishing a sofa table made of paduak and BE maple, and I will be trying the Armor All trick. I'm interested to see if the oil finish after the AA treatment will reduce the chance of fisheyes when applying a varnish after the oil.
Good luck
Paul In Tinton Falls
Edited 7/15/2004 6:44 pm ET by Paul
Matt
I've only used paduak once, but my experience was that BLO or Watco didn't improve the appearance - just made it darker.
Matt,
Paduak can keep its color by spraying lacquer. And using a sanding sealer. Its is an easy finish and hard to screw up.
3fingers,
I don't have the equipment to spray lacquer. I've got a decent compressor but no gun.
When I bought the paduak, I showed the wife a finished example that was at the lumber yard, which had darkened already. So, both she and I expected it to darken over time.
I have some oil/varnish mix, some with UV protection (Watco's Teak Oil), a linseed/wax mix and some shellac. I think I'll just try at least one coat of them all on some scrap and see what it looks like.
Thanks to all that have replied.
Matt
Finishes with UV inhibitors will delay, but not stop the enevitable darkening of Paduak.
To assess the long term effects, take your finished sample boards and set them out where they will be explosed to direct sunlight for a couple of weeks. That exposure will tell the tale.
Nikkiwood,
Thanks for the tip. I wasn't all that concerned with the darkening of the wood until everyone started posting about preserving the red/orange coloring. It's pretty but, at least with the wood I have, it's almost a little too orangey. The piece has some semi-interesting grain that I used for the end panels but, it certainly doesn't have spectular figure. I am really trying to achieve are fairly "simple" look. But, if the piece is doomed to end up a uniform "rootbeer" color someday, I guess I can accept that (the long term finished piece that the lumber dealer showed me, while dark, it a nice reddish tone to it).
I was a little suprised to see a poster above indicating how a shellac finish would surely be destroyed over the course of time. Is it really that delicate and unforgiving? I've used it on some turnings and it doesn't seem that fragile (although the oldest is probably only about 1 year old).
Matt
Naw -- I think shellac is pretty tough, and it is certainly one of the easiest finishes to repair.
As I remember, this is a cradle (as opposed to a crib), so I would imagine the kid will be out of it by the time he is old enough to beat it with toys or chew on the rails.
I am personally not a big fan of shellac unless you can spray it. But if you are willing to spend time rubbing it out, the finish can be really beautiful.
with the tung oil or any oil make sure u put on multiable coats at least 7 letting dry for 24 hours each application. i know it seem like alot of work but it is worth the effort.
3fingers,
Seven coats? Holy crap. That does seem like a lot. With that type of 'in the wood' finish, does adding that many coats continue to add finish? I would have thought by the time you had applied 3 or 4 coats, anything more would just be spreading on and wiping off all of the new finish.
Matt
The first 3 coats it is penetrating into the wood (do not sand). after 24 from the 3rd coat then you sand 220. Use less oil with paper towel, non lint type looks blue, used on cars. 24 hours.
sand 320 now use a tack cloth then apply 5th coat now you are building on the finish. Lite with the oil. 24 hours.
6th coat 320 sand, tack cloth, 6th coat just skim the surface. 24 hours
0000 steel wool. tack cloth 7th coat skim the surface. all done!!!
when it dries it is baby safe! (same as salad bowl finish.)
try it you will really enjoy the finish.
Remember that the little bugger will likely chew on the piece as teething happens. If nothing else, shellac is safe.
Charlie
I'm going to repeat my earlier post to stress that I would avoid using shellac, and why.
Dried shellac is non-toxic, but dissolves easily with alcohol, and to a lesser degree in water (which if you know your organic chemistry, is the simplest alcohol). Other enzymes and acids in baby saliva and barf (aka "spit up") will also dissolve shellac. When the kid discovers how to put his or her hand inside a wet diaper, then you have some pretty caustic substances (ammonia, urea, uric acid et al.) potentially coming into contact with the crib finish.
True, it is easy enough to repair a shellac finish, but I have to ask why the ease of repair is a plus (instead of being a red flag). By the time you are repairing the finish, the baby may have ingested some of it. Shellac may be considered non-toxic, but there's no need to make it possible for the rugrat to ingest it.
Lacquer and varnish are both attractive, durable, and more baby resistant. I'd even go without a topcoat before using shellac on a crib.
I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I have always thought shellac is just about the safest finish available. So safe, in fact, that it is often used as a coating for pills.
nikkiwood,
You are correct. Shellac is often used on food products and pills. It is probably the safest finish available.
IMHO there's no reason to avoid shellac on a crib or cradle. In addition to being safe, it's perhaps the easiest finish to apply and get beautiful results.
For the first two coats or so I use a very thin wash coat, about a 1/2 or 1 lb cut. But I must confess that I don't think shellac is rocket fuel, and all my "measurements" are approximations; I often use the wash coat cut for all the coats.
Shellac dries very quickly, and I can put on several coats in one day. There's no reason to scuff sand between coats--so I don't (being extremely lazy). All I will do is to knock off any nits, bits, dust or motes with a Scotch pad or steel wool; but these are few because it dries so fast.
I don't think I've ever rubbed out a shellac finish. Varnish has to be rubbed out to look right, shellac doesn't. Again, I'll knock off any dust with 0000 wool, perhaps lubricated with water and a drop of soap, or paraffin oil if I have some. Lastly, I put on a coat of my secret formula wax, buff it out, and I'm done.
I've completed a shellac finish, from wash coat to wax, in one weekend--easily. I can do it in just one day if I use a heavier cut after the wash coats.
I've found shellac to be very durable. It's not perfect for every application, but it would be great for a crib or cradle.
Alan
I use dewaxed shellac as a sealer all the time, but I seldom use shellac as a finish by itself.
I did, however, use a spray shellac finish for two rooms of casings and crown moldings for an old house. The owner insisted because it was a turn of the century house and shellac had been used originally.
For my taste, the final outcome looked too much like a high gloss finish, which has also been the case on the few times I have brushed shellac.
Is there any way you know to avoid this glossy appearance -- save rubbing out the final coat?
nikkiwood,
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "rubbing out."
I've never done the varnish routine on shellac (level with sandpaper, wet sand, pumice...ad nauseam) because I'm lazy and I've never found it necessary.
Across the room from me right now is a very old chest that I refinished with four or five coats of garnet shellac and a good film of my home-brewed wax, buffed out to about a semi-gloss. IIRC, without checking my journal, the only "rubbing out" I did was to apply the wax with 0000 steel wool and I spent some time buffing the wax.
As I said in my first post, I have sanded a coat of shellac here and there. I do this only when I get lots of little nit-bits or the film is uneven for some reason (remember I'm lazy). I don't recall ever sanding shellac for another reason.
I also suppose your question depends on what you mean by "high gloss." Certainly a shellac finish can look just like glass. But the only time I've seen shellac that glossy was a French polish. If I had to describe the gloss of an untouched shellac finish I think it would be a notch or two below a gloss varnish, perhaps "semi-gloss" or thereabout.
I don't find an untouched shellac surface too glossy for my taste, but it may be for some, or it may not match something like your woodwork. In that case, after removing all the little bumps, I would wax it.
Using steel wool or a very fine pad to apply wax takes down the sheen a notch. But whatever sheen the shellac has is masked by the wax.
For my taste, again, wax on top of shellac gives the same sort of warm glow as does a varnish that's been properly rubbed out. You can adjust the gloss a bit by buffing a little or a lot. Using a colored wax can also alter the appearance, and the apparent gloss, by adding another layer of color.
Wax over shellac is absolutely my favorite finish--appearance wise. It's not suitable for everything, but where it's appropriate it is gorgeous--IMHO that is.
Wow! Get this guy started and he goes on forever! You shouldn't have gotten me going. You know how I am. I'd go on forever if my fingers didn't get tired.
Anyway, I hope some part of this overly long and rambling missive is of some help.
Alan
Edited 7/20/2004 6:33 pm ET by Alan
Alan,
Stop already .................. You always talk about "going on too long" -- but I have never seen a post from you that was not complete and filled with very good information --like this one.
thanks.
nikkiwood,
You are too kind.
Alan
Jeff Jewitt has a flatting agent to add to last coat to kill the sheen of the shellac, but I hve never used it. I always like to rub it out, and then wax. A smooth shellac, followed by wax, is awfully nice to the hand. The first three coats of shellac can be rubbed on with a rubber (french polish guy) without trouble. More and it gets a bit more touchy.
Alan
http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com
Alans4s,
What is your routine for rubbing out shellac?
I've never heard of an additive to kill the gloss of shellac. Do you have any idea what it is and what it does?
Again, I must be doing something different than everybody else. I would't say the sheen I get with shellac is glossy. Mine is more like a semi-gloss, or perhaps a little glossier--but still not a high gloss. Off the brush the gloss is just about what I want.
Lately I've been using garnet shellac on the show pieces; I wonder if because garnet is less refined than orange shellac, that could somehow affect the gloss. Any ideas?
How would you describe the degree of gloss you get?
Alan (no, the other one)
How do you pronounce paduak?
Michael
How about "pa -- duke" -- with accent on the last syllable?
thanks.
I beg to differ, somewhat hesitantly. Google shows 2,120 instances of paduak, 15,000 instances of padauk, both referring to the same species, Pterocarpus soyauxii. I suspect the spelling mutated because, in fact, people don't know how to pronounce it, so they don't notice when the 'a' and the 'u' are transposed. I believe the majority spelling is correct, to the extent that 'correct' means anything when you talk about the English spelling of non-English words. I believe all the references I've seen in FWW were padauk.
I would pronounce it pah dah uk, with the emphasis on the second syllable and very little emphasis on the 'u'. But that's just a guess, based on what I think I know about how people spell non-English words in American English. In fact, I've never heard anyone pronounce it.
Edited 7/28/2004 7:30 pm ET by Uncle Dunc
I type-ooohed when I originally posted. I normally spell it padauk (not that I find myself spelling it that often). I'm afraid to call a lumber yard to see whether they I any in stock for fear they'll think I'm ignornant. Instead, I just drive the 50 miles and grunt if I see anything I like (in true Neandrathal fashion). I figure the lumber yard guys will respect me more that way.
Matt
>> I'm afraid to call a lumber yard ... for fear they'll think I'm ignorant.
I hear you, buddy. Like asking for directions. It's an irrational fear that's just a total drag on my life, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.
Grunt and point ????? ..............I like that.
Spelling? I have also seen it spelled Paduk.
Pronounciation? I have been sitting here trying to say "pah dah uk" (emphasis on 2nd syllable), and my thick midwestern tongue just can't do it.
So, for me, "pa duke" it will have to be. And if that doesn't work, I'll just grunt and point .......
Uggh.
Michael
Pondfish, you no likey the shellac for a crib- what do you recommend, if you please?
Shellac appealed to me due to its ease of application, ease of repair and durability. I am a real novice.
Thanks!
Those padauk pores are one of its beauty marks. A poly, with an ultraviolet inhibitter might be good on an oily type of wood like that, especially if you want to keep that blood red color. There are some spray on spar varnishes from Minwax that I use on small one off items.
It pops the grain reall good, and is rather indestructable too.
Something you might consider with oil-finsihed paduak is that it will likely stain the baby blankets it comes in contact with. I stockpile my laminated cutting boards, finished with oil, stacked vertically face-to-face with a paper shop towel (in the blue rolls) between them. This is after the boards are oiled three times and left in dishwasher racks until completely dry. Over the course of a few weeks, the blue towels are stained where the paduak strips are. If i don't use a towel between boards, the padauk stains the wood on the other board. I'm guessing it would do the same to bedding. Also, for unknown reasons, you can get something like effluorescence at the surface with oil-finished paduak--a powdery white substance that rubs off easily. I haven't heard a plausible explanation for it yet, but i had to start lacquering the insides of jewelry boxes (previously oiled) to foil this problem.
Nothing...nothing at all...will keep the paduak from changing color eventually. It's only a matter of rate of change.
Thanks to all that responded. I put together some samples with just one coat and showed them to my better half. She liked the shellac the best (as I did), so, shellac it is. The oils were too dark for my liking. Although I still have some concerns about its ability to hold up (unfounded or not), it does appear that shellac is used in certain foods/pills so, it shouldn't hurt cradle occupants.
Matt
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