Replies

1. 
   pellaz | Feb 10, 2005 07:25pm | #1

   Hi Harry and others,

   I too am ready to ebonize a small side table project with Rock Maple legs and stretchers.

   David Marks has done this on a couple of his shows...the one with the standing 3-part lacewood screen, and in the most recent season, the base of an asian-influence bookcase.

   He uses metal acid dye.  These modern chemical dyes are very colorfast, which is the reason I chose to go with them.  A number of places sell metal acid dyes, although it is not always clear at first glance which products these are!

   Another thing seems to be the desired effect, and whether or not you use black dye alone, or mix in some brown...which may perhaps look more like ebony itself.

   I ordered dyes from Wood Finish Supply in Fort Bragg.

   Note that on the show, David is using the water-soluble metal acid dyes.

   Let me know how it's going...perhaps we could communicate with each other as we test this out!

   Regards, Pellaz

1. 
   TonLoc | Feb 10, 2005 11:20pm | #2

   Why not use the old technique? Let steel wool rot and rust away in a jar of vinegar and then dye the wood with the resulting liquid. Worked great for me!

1. 
   pellaz | Feb 11, 2005 07:05pm | #9

   Hi Tony,

   My understanding is that the classic vinegar/steel technique is not very colorfast.

   -Pellaz

1. 
   highfigh | Feb 11, 2005 07:10pm | #10

   Why is it necessary to put the steel wool in vinegar? Why not put the steel wool in water along with oak sawdust or shavings? It's the tannic acid and iron reacting that turns the mixture black. Anybody need a big bag of oak shavings and dust? I just planed a bunch of white and red oak.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   TonLoc | Feb 11, 2005 08:53pm | #12

   Instead of relying on the tannic acid (or more properly the tannins) in the oak, I prefer to have a more controlled reaction and rely on the acetic acid in the vinegar. But that said, by all means, try whatever you think will work for you. 

         Any acid plus any source of iron will work.   Cheap and sure (steel wool and vinegar) worked for me

2. 
   highfigh | Feb 12, 2005 01:17am | #13

   The only reason I asked is that I worked at a lumber yard in the '70's and we cut up a lot of oak for the railroad, most of it was fairly wet. When it was hot and our hands would sweat, they would turn pretty dark after handling the oak and the metal handle on the radial arm saw. Pretty effective, if you ask me. We didn't even have to try. I know they made ink in the past by crushing oak leaf galls, putting them in water and adding iron.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

3. 
   Telemike | Feb 12, 2005 09:25am | #15

   The steel wool reacts with the acetic acid (~3% acetic acid in water = vinegar) and forms an iron +2 acetate solution. The iron in solution then reacts with tannins in the wood and gives the black color. You need the steel wool and vinegar to convert metallic iron into iron in solution - that's what is needed to react with tanins. In old wood that is black around nails (like the paneling and trim in my family room), the iron in the nail had to react with water first to form dissolved iron that then reacted with the tanins in the wood.That said, ebonizing with iron acetate works best when there is a high tanin concentration in the wood. I always ebonize walnut - it ends up jet black and uniform. I've not been pleased with ebonized red oak. The superhard walls of the pores have remained light in contrast with the ebonized body of the wood. I've ended up with ugly gray ebonizing poplar and maple. There isn't enough tanin to darken properly.One last thought: If you leave the iron acetate too long, the iron oxidizes all the way to ferric iron (+3) and the solution and everything it touches ends up a really bad gray brown orange.

4. 
   highfigh | Feb 12, 2005 02:22pm | #17

   I know vinegar is acetic acid and the water around the nails turns the wood black around the holes. That's the same reason it turned our hands black/ grey/purplish at the lumber yard. Thanks for the explaination on why the vinegar is needed, though.How well did this method work for white oak?

   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

5. 
   Telemike | Feb 13, 2005 07:58am | #23

   I've never tried white oak. I mostly had access to red oak back east in my Oak Phase, now I'm mostly using white oak painted for outdoors. Too many "this old house" chores for fine woodwork!If you try it, let us know how it worked out.Also, search the forum for vinegar or ebonize etc. There have been several threads that ended up with ebonizing with ferrous acetate.

6. 
   TonLoc | Feb 13, 2005 05:00pm | #24

   Telemiketoo:
   Thanks for the chemistry refresher- absolutely makes sense to me. I found the solution works better on white oak than red. If you find a white oak grown where there is a lot of iron in the soil, it works that much better.All:
   My previous comment about painting the wood was offered somewhat sarcastically. It seems as though any finish you put on that is black is called ebonizing. That is inaccurate. Ebonizing is done to darken the wood without occluding the grain. You can approximate the same effect with stains like inda ink or universal tints, but they are particulate based and not a true dye. They obscure the grain a bit.
   If there isn't much grain showing in the first place (as with some maples) then the effect of obscuring the grain is even more obvious.
   If all you want to do is turn the piece black use whatever method you want, but please don't think you are ebonizing something merely because you turned it black.
   Ebonizing refers to the process - not the result.

2. 
   TonLoc | Feb 11, 2005 08:50pm | #11

   That is not my experience. I ebonized a Dining table I built in 1990. It is still just as dark today.

2. 
   bones | Feb 13, 2005 02:07am | #21

   Do you use white or cider vinigar?

2. 
   Harry6144 | Feb 11, 2005 12:41am | #3

   Did Marks covr witha water or oil based finish?  I  am leaning to a pooy finish, but I am wondering if the water based poly will react with the water based dye.  What do you know or think re this?

    

   Have not started yet due to other more pressing projects--HER LIST!!!!!!!!!!!but should soon.

    

   Let me know what you intend touwe, have used, and how did it turn oyut.

    

   I tried the vinegar and steel wool method on a small sample but was not pleased with the color.  Perhaps I did not let it darken enough.   May try that again.  What covering was used over this, or nothing?

    

   Thanks,

    

   Harry

3. 
   Harry6144 | Feb 11, 2005 12:43am | #4

   Spell check did not work on last reply.  Terrible typist.  Sorry

    

   Harry

1. 
   TonLoc | Feb 11, 2005 04:32am | #6

   The nature of the steel wool in vinegar is that it causes a chemical reaction in the wood that turns it black. Any finish can go over it once it is dry. Try it on some scrap first of course, but trust me, you don't have to buy anything but steel wool and white vinegar. I could not understand your post? I have used this technique on Mahogany, oak, maple, Luan, Redwood, fir, and pine.
   Oak and maple were the best (especially oak). The softwoods were of varied success. The redwood came out pretty well.

1. 
   Harry6144 | Feb 11, 2005 05:37am | #7

   Thank you.  I will give it another try.

   Did you put any finish over the solution?

   Harry

1. 
   TonLoc | Feb 11, 2005 04:06pm | #8

   Yes I Poly Urethaned it. Solvent based -  worked fine - I did make sure everything was very dry before I applied the finish

2. 
   DANL | Feb 13, 2005 04:53am | #22

   My understanding is that the more tannin in the wood, the better the solution of vinegar and rust works--reacts with the tannin. I think you can supply your own tanning by putting tea on the wood first.

4. 
   Harry6144 | Feb 11, 2005 12:45am | #5

   Do you have a website or mail/hone info for the metal dye people in Fort Bragg?  I assume you mean the Fort Bragg in California, and not in NC.

    

   Harry

2. 
   Bear | Feb 12, 2005 05:00am | #14

   I have some experience with black furniture. I use india ink. Good art supply stores will carry it in quart size. Two coats and the maple will be jet black. I top coat with lacquer or water base ploy. Try this method, it really works well.

   Bear

1. 
   Timel | Feb 12, 2005 10:22am | #16

   I second what Bear sez. Indian ink has worked well for me. Really easy to do. No alchemy with vinegar and steel wool (see Terry Pratchett for further details).Tim
   Tim Lawson
   Soon-to-be furniture maker
   Port Townsend, WA

2. 
   TonLoc | Feb 12, 2005 07:46pm | #18

   The only objection I have to using India ink is that it is not a dye. It is colored with particles the will obscure the grain. That is not ebonizing. If that just turning the piece black is what you want, paint it. No problems there, and no alchemy required! just a black surface.

1. 
   Bear | Feb 13, 2005 01:59am | #20

   The problem with paint is you are building a coating on top of the wood. The india ink is like a stain that is absorbed. I don't see much grain in soft maple anyway.Bear

3. 
   KesslerCraftsman | Feb 13, 2005 01:58am | #19

   Hi,

   I just ebonized some picture frames...Birch w/black transtint, topped w/sprayed clear lacquer.  Very black, somewhat easy to use..I mixed the transtint w/alcohol to avoid grain-raising.

   It took a couple of coats to get maximum black.

   You can get black transtint at http://www.homesteadfinishing.com or at Woodcraft.

   I've also heard good things about using Inda Ink.

   Good luck!