a local group is restoring a water powered mill near where we live – a lot of the structural work has been done and the three turbines that supply the power to the machine have been removed for renovation – they date from 1909 and 1910 and use bearings of ebony to support the wheels – a cone shaped lower bearing and a 2 piece collar bearing above the housing – here’s a few picts – where can we get big enough pieces of ebony to reproduce these bearings? –
Replies
here's a link to some more picts if anyone is interested - http://curve.phpwebhosting.com/~luka/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=bar&Number=3417&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=6&o=0&fpart=
David,
Are you sure the bearings were Ebony? Not Lignum Vitae?
Rich
no, I'm not - I'll do some more checking - but the story has 'always' been Ebony - we have pieces, how could we make a determination from a detailed observation?
David,
It may be hard for you to identify the wood. The major differences between them are that Lignum Vitae has a sp. gr. of about 1.14, Ebony about 0.90. Lignum is a tan/brown wood and cut sections have a distinct waxy feel. Ebony may be brown but has much more black pigmentation and, in my experience does not feel waxy. I don't know if you'll be able to get fresh cut sections that will allow enough examination.
They are both diffusely porous woods with very fine, indistinct growth rings which need magnification to be seen. Lignum has interlocking grain. Ebony has straight grain. Both have rays but you need magnification to see them.
Jon Arno frequents this forum, he may be able to help you. I encourage you to get expert advice in identifying the wood for your restoration.
Some project!
Rich
Edited 9/8/2002 6:03:14 PM ET by Rich Rose
Edited 9/8/2002 6:30:05 PM ET by Rich Rose
the festival closed this afternoon - I brought the bearing half home and dressed the end - here's three picts for your perusal -
I have a piece of lignum vitae right here on the desk. It shows the same alternating bands of shiny and dull.
Of course I don't know if that's going to help much with your problem. It may as hard to find big pieces of lignum vitae as it is to find big pieces of ebony.
David,
I don't think the appearance of the wood in those pictures allows an identification. What did you cut it with? How did it cut? What did it smell like? Is the freshly cut wood oily?
Rich
Edited 9/8/2002 8:23:26 PM ET by Rich Rose
An old farmer told me once that parts of mills were made of walnut as it will not rot if submerged. I wonder if you could substitute a chunk of black walnut?
Frank
Rich, I took my utility plane and sliced across the exposed end till the color showed - didn't take much, came off in small flecks- looking at the sample under magnification the brown striations are deterioration and within the 'sound' dark bands there are tan colored flecks, apparently the pores, maybe filled with mineral from 80 years underwater? I'd judge the wood to have a waxy feel -
ALL: as a practical matter, I think potentially several woods could serve the cause, expecially since the machine is unlikely to see a lot of hours of operation - on the other hand it is inconvenient, to say the least, to expose the bearings, particularly the bottom one -
my wife has access to a machine that will allow her to make a digital picture of a magnified section, that I could then post - It'll take a couple of days to get the machine here, so if anyone has technique suggestions (how much magnification, what needs to be shown, etc), I'd appreciate them -
David,
Brown striations, bands? Waxy feel? Lignum Vitae's probabilty is high.
Rich
David, how important is historical accuracy vs practicality and longevity here. You might consider a delrin bearing to replace the wooden one.
BJGardening, cooking and woodworking in Southern Maryland
another good point - synthetics have been mentioned, but while I know enough about wood to be dangerous, I (we) do not have any plastic experts - 50 years of service life is pretty impressive and I would not ever have to worry about dealing with it again if we can achieve performance on that order - I would conjecture that 'delrin' is a family of synthetic that would have different formulations of different compressive strengths, etc - someone would have to put it on the line and say 'this compound will offer the service you desire, I've got these blanks, let me machine them for you' - well, we do have good machine/tool and die shops availible to us, but haven't found the materials expert yet, so I'm starting my search (there are others looking elsewhere) by seeing what it would take to freshen original system - I'd be happy to pick your brain on the possibility of modern materials, tell me more/what do you need to know-
David,
I second the suggestion for using a synthetic, unless exact restoration is the goal. When the original was built, the designers used the best material available to them. No one forced them to use something else that was traditional. I sometimes wonder why we get ourselves so caught up in replicating old design. The oldtimers would never have tolerated someone limiting them if they had a superior (for their time) material.
If you need to stay faithful to the original, I think that you will be able to locate a source for Lignum Vitae. However, you might want to consider using Ipe if you can't readily find a source of whatever the original wood was. Ipe is readily available and inexpensive. It can be had in good size lumber. Its density can be had up into the high range of 0.95-0.97. You have to specify that you want premium grades as it is sold as decking material in the less dense (0.85) grades. Ipe is very dense, durable and resists decay. I'm not sure how much natural lubrication quality it has - certainly less than Lignum Vitae which stands alone in that respect.
http://www.cocobolo.com has Ipe, Lignum Vitae and Verawood a type of Lignum Vitae, Bulnesia arborea
"Maracaibo Lignum Vitae". Virtually identical to Lignum Vitae except for less oil and a lighter color to the wood. It is also available in much larger sizes due to the growth of the tree. It is the only tree of the Lignum Vitae family that grows to timber size.80+lbs per cubic foot.
Rich
Edited 9/9/2002 4:30:39 AM ET by Rich Rose
Looks like lignum vitae to me, but I have no great experience. I have a friend who runs an old East Coast marine terminal. He gave me a chunk of lignum vitae some years ago, found in one of the many warehouses. It is about 8" in diameter, and 8" long. He believed it was lignum vitae, carried on a ship for making a replacement bearing. I am sill waiting for enough time and knowledge to make it into plane base plates.
Edited 9/9/2002 6:36:47 AM ET by s4s
Hi David... First question.... Looking at picture number 2, how do you get your mill to turn out such a nice stack of $1 bills?? If you speed it up will it produce 5's, 10's or 20's??? There is a HORIZONTAL water wheel out here (Eastern Long Island) that was restored almost 30 years ago. If memory serves me correctly, the gent who made the bearings used Lignum Vitae (as mentioned in another post). Where are you and the mill located?? I always enjoy the sound of mills, especially when they are sawing wood or grinding flour.
SawdustSteve Long Island, NY (E of NYC)
this mill is on eel river in north central Indiana - built in 1857, with major renovation in 1909 - originally had an undershot wheel on a horizontal shaft, was converted to the much more efficient vertical shaft turbines during the 1909 reno - the small turbine runs the feed side, milling corn, oats, and such for animal feed - the two larger turbines run the flour side, which manufactured wheat flour for human consumption - the machine was in operation until 1964 - a fascinating machine with shafts and belts and elevators and cleaners and crushers and sifters and separaters etc, etc - machinery is all there, but there is no piece that does not need work - here's a pict of the mill I took this afternoon -
how do you get your mill to turn out such a nice stack of $1 bills?? If you speed it up will it produce 5's, 10's or 20's???
actually, that's a photo of the mill eating dollar bills - it feasts just fine on $20's, 50's, and 100's - here's a photo of the pricelist for repair parts -
Dave... I hope you received the e-mail I sent you with the name & phone number for the Society for the Preservation of Old Mills. If anyone reading this thread is interested in getting involved in this sort of woodworking (there are LOTS of wooden wheels out there) this is a group of people who spend lots of time restoring mills...Their address is: Mr. W.L. Denton 5444 Alpine Ridge, Stevensville, MI 49127-1302. No, I am not a member but belong to another group that lists their name. As to the price list, it looks like the repair bill for my car! It's time for your group to start a 'Friends of the Old Mill' or look for a commercial sponsor to help defray these costs. I'm part of a crew restoring a Light House. That's the way we have been raising funds. SawdustSteve
Does the wood float? If not, it's most likely lignum.
Looking at the pics and knowing a bit about historic mills, my feeling is that the bearings are lignum vitae. Ebony was traditionally used for a lot of things but bearings wasn't one of their applications.
Stephen
hoowz about this?
David, sorry to be coming to this thread so late, but I've been out of town and trying to catch up. I would agree with Rich that ebony is not a likely candidate for bearings, especially when put into context with the historical period. Lignum vitae would have been the wood of choice and at that time it was readily available. As for identifying the wood itself, unfortunately two of the best clues for separating lignum vitae from ebony are these woods' strikingly different pigmentations and the oily extractives found only in the lignum vitae. By comparison, ebony is a very dry wood. I suspect these clues are long gone, given the age of the wood and the abuse it has experienced. This leaves you with just the wood's anatomical structure to rely on and the gross anatomy of these two woods are very similar. The minute anatomy (ray seriates and pits) do differ, but you would need very high magnification (a microscope) to analyze these features. If the correct identification is absolutely critical, you could send a sample to Regis Miller up at the USDA Forest Products Laboratory in Madison, Wisconsin, for positive identification...He's getting old like me, but he's still the best in the world at this game.
The sad fact is though, if it happens to be either of these two woods, the odds of being able to get the replacement stock in the necessary dimensions falls somewhere between impossible and absolutely impossible. You might be able to locate verawood (Bulnesia arborea), which is a close relative of lignum vitae native to Venezuela, but even it is getting scarce. If the bearings operate submerged, it would not be as good, because of its lower content of natural lubricating extractives...and it's not quite as dense as lignum vitae either...but it would be a good choice, if the bearing can be periodically lubricated. All things considered though, your best functional choice would be to go with a synthetic material...or if using wood is esthetically a must, your best price-value option in today's market would be to use ipe. It's cheap and when selected for maximum density, it's wear characteristics are not all that inferior to those of verawood.
Edited 9/10/2002 9:41:23 PM ET by Jon Arno
Edited 9/10/2002 9:45:47 PM ET by Jon Arno
Thank you, Jon - - after all this I feel almost foolish to report that I got ahold of the assembly section drawing of the turbine from the manufacturer which clearly identifies the Lignum vitae 'top step' and 'bottom step' - I called the company (still in business - they sent a copy of the index cards with the original purchase details) and talked to a salesperson and he said 'I think we have some on a shelf in the warehouse' - felt like I was in a time warp - I said 'go check, dust them off and give me the 1910 price' - - we chatted further about the project and he said he would check and get back with a price - not a done deal, could be way too easy, we'll see -
today some of us worked in the turbine room, working to clear the discharge channels - exposed the spider holding the bottom step - - concrete guy was suppose to check in, but didn't show - would be nice to apply myself for a year or two to the project, but I'm afraid real life is going to interfer - -thanks to all - I'll update as a noteworthy steps are completed, if anyone is interested - DOUD
Here is a link to a site that can probanly help you. Lignum vitae is still a preferred material for large ship prop bearings!!
http://www.lignum-vitae.com/
Thanks - to 'ALL' - looks like the link JANATION provided will get new bearings of original style - anyone care to guess how much they will cost? - - I'll post after they reply - sent off to Rich's link also, we'll see if 10"X10" lignum vitae is availible -
I'm prepared to accept that the bearings are lignum vitae rather than ebony - there are few in the county who could pronounce 'lignum vitae' so I see how it could get shortened - - Dwight (the main man) spent the day in the turbine level of the mill hosing and trash pumping the turbine wells(?) - tomorrow I'll get a look at whats left of the lower bearings and get a pict, hopefully - - exciting, excellent times -
anyone else reading thru this, if you have anything to offer, jump right in - we're making it up as we go along, and a fun trip it is -
David,
The link that I posted, http://www.cocobolo.com was an error. It was meant to be http://www.cocoboloinc.com.
Amazingly, http://www.cocobolo.com turns out to be a valid site also, with the stock that you need.
Lots of choices. Best of luck!
Rich
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