What do you do with Eco Know it alls who even question 100% pure tung oil as a finish? I make wooden toys and for the most part this has been acceptable to most Greenies. However , today , when making a sales call I got questioned about my use of tung oil and, in fact, was cross refrerenced over the internet as I was talking about it and its suitability to young kids. It seems that they have this idea that vegi oil is the only thing to use for kids toys. Now The smart salesman would say, ” yes……..you are soooooooooooooooooo right and your toys will come with that on them and just do what I want ( like they would really know tung vs veggi). It gets to me that this enviro thing has become more than a cult. I mentioned to this customer that I have been selling to a ” Vegan” wed site because of my enviro friendly approach and their answer was a very smug “we are greener then they are”. ……..ahem…….this web site has a lot more customers than this one small store and the audacity to take the higher “green” ground just made me think of where this eco friendly thing is leading us. I feel compelled to give them a product soaked in olive oil and a bit of garlic and call it a woody salad…….devoid of any cheese. Then again it’s all about making a buck so I’ll sell em’……..because the ultimate victory is in their acceptance but it will be at a very good profit to me. Thank you God for Green! Being Green means you never have to apologize about the price.
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
” If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy……..yessa!”
Replies
I just have to wonder if shellac would be considered acceptable to vegans...
Try explaining what shellac is and watch the look on their faces. Its natural and comes from bugs............wowWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
cherryjohn,Read Adam's post again. And again. And again. Memorize it.Nothing more needs to be said about these situations.Do you want to live in an ivory tower or sell your merchandise? Finish the work with extra virgin, low fat olive oil if they like that. Imported, of course. Balsamic vinaigrette if they want. And don't let them catch you rolling your eyes.Your real task is to make them think you are farther along the curve then they. That they can come to you as their expert in these matters. The rest is easy. Just take it to the bank.Rich
You miss the point, Rich. The original posting by me was only to point out the folly in the minds of some of these Eco focused folks. Because they have their heads in these green clouds I could certainly take advantage of the situation. It wasn't my original intent but when they resist I saw an opening. My tactic was to resist then come back with a suitable to them and cheaper ( to me) alternative that I charge the same price for and they were happy as clams at high tide. A good deal happens when both parties are satisfied. They will get the finish they find suitable and I will get a higher net margin because their focus on only one alternative. Im very well aware of the need to give the customer what they think they want if it means more profit and wont end up giving me a bad name. This cypress sail boat ( walnut sail and water line) has Waterlox on it. I wont supply it without a finish because i know just how short customers memories can be. Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
should have checked the size of that file before posting it....here the pic is in a smaller sizeWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
"You miss the point, Rich"Nah. I get the point.You think your overbearing opinions are more valid than their overbearing opinions.Good luck, chief.Rich
you dont need luck when you have talent, bucko........or so I have been toldWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Just in case the use of shellac comes up, it's used to coat enteric medicines and is also marketed as confectioners glaze. All with the blessings of the FDA.
The lady told me she intended to spend the rest of her life in efforts to reduce her footprint on the earth, to leave little trace of her life. I suggested she take everything she owned to appropriate recycling and then to walk naked into the woods, lie down in the dirt, and die.
She seemed to take this idea seriously and of course she didn't buy from me.
It's a religion for sure!
If religious folks are content to just do their thing and go home after service and practice their dogma that would be just fine. The world would then be a better place. The Eco crowd seems to think much like radical Islam; if you doubt , you die. They think that the wood they are so intent on saving is suitable for harvest if it is meant to make stakes to drive through the hearts of the non believers.
I dont subscribe to their philosiphies in entirity but I will be making stakes for them and saying " praise be" when they pay me for them. My dogma is pragmatism.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I love this post!
If only we could all make millions off the Greenies who haven't a clue what green is.
We could then retire to work exotics off our diesel generators and eat microwavable TV dinners in styrofoam containers, guzzel our vintage coke in six packs with the plastic holders and leave all this on the curb in one can for the garbage men to take to the dump!.....? Oh my what the heck am I saying. Ha ha ha
I just hope he who laughs last is holding the fuller wallet.
Chaim
RW
Is the confectioner's glaze waxed or dewaxed?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
What can be more of a "veggie oil" than an oil pressed from a nut (which is from a tree, which is not an animal) ??? The company owners aren't so much Green/Enviro oriented as the are Green/$$ oriented -- all a sales pitch to my ear!
I see in the Wikipedia entry that they talk of "severe reactions" to tung oil. While some people may be allergic to it in the wet state, it's not necessarily a given that the same people would be allergic to a completely dried finish. I corresponded with a toy maker several years back who finishes his toys with walnut oil. He corresponded with an MD who was an allergy specialist at a local university to verify that the finish would be safe for children, got a complete thumbs-up.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 9/20/2008 12:44 am by forestgirl
Having also wet my feet in the waters of "green" marketing, I can tell you this - IT'S THE NEW RELIGION. Once you've realized that, everything you describe starts to make sense. Best of luck,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
I think you were given a fantastic opportunity to market your products. What do you want us to say? Yeah stick to Tung oil, screw those customers! I've never sold anything by trying to convince someone they were wrong.
Put walnut oil on your toys and raise your price! Call that person back, tell them you made the switch and that you're done poisoning children. Never again! You've seen the light, brother.
Did you know that Oak has a lot of Tannins in it? Do you really want your children exposed to that? They use tannins in evil leather production you know. That's where the word "tanned" leather comes from. So now you only use locally harvested american maple.
You get my point? David's right. Don't fight it. Work it girlfriend.
Adam
he he....I know exactly what you mean and I did just that. When I got home I called them back and told them I could supply something really green and rare. Several years ago I came across this fallen sugar maple on the side of the road here in NH. The butt end was 44" in dia and the tree was 23 feet long. The narrow end was 36" in dia. They had cut this tree down and topped it and let the rest. Mills are reluctant to take a large tree like this ( about 250 years old) because of the possibility of spikes burried in it. ( yes I got permission to take it!) I salvaged it and still have quite a bit of it left. I told them the story and told that I could supply them with wooden vehicles with no finish at all using this saved from smoke wood. My god you would have thought I was passing out communion at Easter Sunday Mass. Oh, and because of the rarity and the difficulty to work wood this hard.....same price. There is money in them Eco Hills, fo' sho'Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
oh.just a note Adam......just went to the "head" and I was standing up during the " experience". Wrong plumbing for a "girl friend"Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Ask your "greene" if they would prefer peanut oil ? But that may be toxic to some of the rug rats.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I do not understand the antagonistic attitude toward environmentalists that I perceive in this thread. Do some of you think that the scientists are mistaken... that the world isn't warming and all is well? Do you not think that our homes, businesses, and other shelters are not being flooded with toxic chemicals that are causing all sorts of long term health issues? Are you not concerned with toxic chemicals being introduced into the food chain (ask the Chinese parents and american dog owners about the health benefits of melamine)? Are you not concerned about the quantity of non-renewable resources that the world consumes? Why would you be angry with anyone who does care about these issues? How can we achieve a balance with what our world can provide unless some raise our collective awareness? I don't have any problem with any craftsman/business man who is having a difficult time explaining the non-toxicity of certain finishes to the uninformed. But I think they will have an easier time of it if they accept the validity of the green movement and accept that a lot of people are just learning how to incorporate it into their work and lives.
Its not anatagonism about the movement, its the single minded focus on its correctness despite differing opinions. There are 1000's of elinghtened scientist around the globe who dispute the fact of global warming. Their position on the issue is that the earth has gone through cycles in the past much more dramatic than what we see now. The greenies scream out loud when the fact that over the past 100 years the earth gained 1 whole degree in temperature ( on average around the earth) but when the average temp has dropped in the past 2 years more than that it is ignored. Whats also ignored is the fact that the past 10 years has seen a drop in temp every year except one I think. Thats not acceptable to admit. So we have folks making money off the singlemindedness. Hell, Al Gore started a company that sells "green credits" to big money people to make them feel good about flying in their private jets. Where did he become the green credit CEO. Guess because because he feels he was screwed out of the presendency he can do anything it will be ok. This green movement is a cult and there are people poised to make money because of it. That it the entirity of the stated post. The toxicity of chemicals in our enviroment is indeed true and no one will dispute that fact. The fact is there are a lot of people making this into a religion where no one is allowed to express a differing opinion is also a factWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I do not understand the antagonistic attitude toward environmentalists that I perceive in this thread. Do some of you think that the scientists are mistaken... that the world isn't warming and all is well? Do you not think that our homes, businesses, and other shelters are not being flooded with toxic chemicals that are causing all sorts of long term health issues? Are you not concerned with toxic chemicals being introduced into the food chain (ask the Chinese parents and american dog owners about the health benefits of melamine)? Are you not concerned about the quantity of non-renewable resources that the world consumes? Why would you be angry with anyone who does care about these issues? How can we achieve a balance with what our world can provide unless some raise our collective awareness?
I don't have any problem with any craftsman/business man who is having a difficult time explaining the non-toxicity of certain finishes to the uninformed. But I think they will have an easier time of it if they accept the validity of the green movement and accept that a lot of people are just learning how to incorporate it into their work and lives.
The great irony here is that people are living longer and longer in spite of all these threats to our health and well being.
Where I live the winters are very severe and long. Personally, I'm hoping global warming is true and that it will hurry up!
I'm not at all antagonistic, and I feel we all must face up to the real crisis that we have brought on our little planet. I am currently looking into ways of making my WW business much "greener", because it makes good business sense and because it aligns with how I feel about our ecological responsibilities, especially the issue of sustainability.However, the ludicrous part (and the typically American one, if I may say so as an impartial observer) is the tendency to make it into a quasi-religious crusade, in the process setting up different "churches" and ending up by ostracising those environmentalists who aren't fervent enough or who don't pray at my green church. Like so much that happens in human affairs, it turns around and becomes its own antithesis. How does responsibility to the environment gradually turn into hostility to other humans? The sad fact is that it quickly becomes an issue of "belonging" to a group, to a cause, and that identification entirely overshadows the original impulse to change our environmental behavior. The US constitution should really have a new amendment, guaranteeing freedom from political correctness.regards,
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Ahh, well put sir.
We try to recycle as much as possible in our humble abode, even the horse doo doo for fertilizer, aged to a subtle aroma of course. Hey we even get cow doo doo from some of the local farmers too.
If you lived in the States I'm sure you would get all warm and comfortable about blessings from the FDA here. Their signature on a product is to die for!
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Well there is a lot of hysteria about global warming, and in my mind there is no doubt that human activities have contributed to it. But it seems to me that all our concerns are within our human sense of self importance.
I don't think the Earth and the universe gives a tinker's cuss about us as a species. We are just another life form that has developed and prospered for a titchy period in the Earth' existence. Like the dinosaurs we as a species could be long gone in a million years. I don't think the earth will have stopped spinning by then and there may have been other dominant species and life forms come and gone too.
I believe we are nowhere near as important as we think we are, and if we all die out I can't imagine the universe will care at all. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
In a million years we humans may all be gone. But the fact is, we are here now. And, as a species, we've developed an ability to think about our place in the world. So, as one who chooses to think the world (meaning: humans, plants, fish, ocean dwellers in general, my dog, and the whole rest of the mess) will be better off if we stop despoiling our air and water, I can easily embrace the green movement. This does not mean that I have to believe or follow the most radical among them. Nor does it mean that I have to suddenly stop driving, farting, and eating meat. But I do have to raise my awareness of those activities and modify them. I see no reason to disregard nor to get upset over some individuals who are a bit more radical. In fact, I encourage them. Without the radical fringe (radical only in that they espouse new and different ideas that are a departure from "normal"), change won't take place. And change better start happening soon or the human species isn't going to make it another century let alone a million years.
I should have directed that last post to ALL. Sorry.
When the anti-greens wax apoplectic, one recalls the phrase, "Methinks they do protest too much". Some are in denial; some are idealogically wedded to consumerism (rabid or otherwise); some are simply self-centred little skin-bags who guzzle gas, food and just about everything else with gay abandon. (Guess which two I am).Still, Richard issues an undeniable truth - the planet and surrounding universe doesn't do "caring" so when we as a species shrink to a few cave-dwellers in Utah and Mongolia there will be no Mommy-Goddess come to rescue us, whether we tried to be green or otherwise. Neither is that Big Bloke in The Sky likely to appear to help out(we made him up too). One of these Big Change scenarios (or worse) seems likely in a few decades, not a million years. Our complex societies and their systems are both vulnerable and attractive to radical change factors.And then one must ask, "What activities constitute being green"? There is no easy answer in fact, as shifting energy-usage by doing many of the so-called green thangs is just that - a shift, not a reduction. (Recycle your glass, plastic, paper, etcetera and burn huge amounts of gas or oil to do so). Often we ignore unintended consequences of new "green" solutions to energy and toxin problems, which consequences make things worse not better. Grow crops for fuel - cause global food production to fall. Oops.Lastly there is that other human arrogance at work - the belief that we are somehow in control of events and can do things that will alter them. It begs the question, who is this single "we" that may somehow reach a consensus and act in a rational and error-free manner? Of course we do do things to effect changes; but they are determined by factors we are neither in charge of nor even aware of. We rationalise our actions after, not before the fact. The unintended consequences are also someone else's fault as.....we didn't intend them!Naturally I am hoping, personally, that The Mother of All Storms or the Next Pandemic doesn't scour me or you from the planet just yet. I'm also hoping that WWIII is a few years off; also the Global Economc Meltdown. Of course I am thus thinking wishfully - just like you anti-green lads. Heads in the sand time! It's dark down there and one cannot see the Nasty Thang about to bite one in the erse.Lataxe, a pragmatist and a stoic (knows wishing is futile).
Without delving too deeply into the politics of the issue I believe WWII is upon us as we speak!
IRAN SYRIA NORTH KOREA etc., etc., etc., and lots of AFRICAN nations.
I'm willing to bet That we won't be able to sell glo in the dark night stands, after all the fallout. That is IF? were the ones still around.
Chaim
I think you missed WWII by over 60 years.
When your right your right! I meant WWIII of course.
Thanks for pointing that out to me.
Chaim
Lataxe,Despite my many years in academia, you have enunciated my thoughts far more eloquently and forcefully than I ever could have! For myself, the biggest changes to the world we live in will occur after I am but a flake of dust somewhere on the planet, but I am far less sanguine where the future of my children (and grandchildren) is concerned....As one pragmatist (stoic though, not) to another, I salute you!Ted (retired old f...t, biology)
"I see no reason to disregard nor to get upset over some individuals who are a bit more radical. In fact, I encourage them. Without the radical fringe (radical only in that they espouse new and different ideas that are a departure from "normal"), change won't take place. "
There were some 'radical' ideas practiced around here for the last eight years. I think I've had enough of radicals. How about some nice slightly tainted middle ground with the 'messiness' of life taken for granted. We are not perfect, and what would that be anyhow?
"In a million years we humans may all be gone. But the fact is, we are here now. And, as a species, we've developed an ability to think about our place in the world."
Actually, what we've developed is a rather keen ability for mindless denial. There is no scientifically valid argument against the fact that the world is vastly more populated than can be supported for more than a century or so. And that's not just running out of oil.
However, I've yet to hear even the most rabid environmental organization say what actually is the truth - there are way too many people riding around on this planet, and some will have to get off. While it's theoretically possible that could be done by voluntarily restricting family size, we've proved beyond doubt that the urge to breed overcomes most rational thought. Problem is, population control will occur, whether it be voluntary, or by war, disease or famine (or perhaps all three simultaneously).
My point supports the original poster's insuation - the current "religion" of "green" is no more based in rational thought than the failure of the above environmental organizations to talk about the true issue. We as humans have an enormous and disturbing capacity for "I can't refute any of the facts you just told me, but the conclusion is uncomfortable, so therefore the facts must not be true."
Hi all;
I'm very thankful for FWW and use it often for advice, though I seldom jump into discussions because I have nothing particularly important to add. In this case, while painfully aware that this is a woodworking forum and not a world affairs one, I'd like to take a shot at supporting poor, lonely Sapwood. Obviously, the tung oil issue is not what concerns me, it is the tie-in to "Eco-nuts" and other follow-on commentary.
My qualifications, I think, are relevant enough to mention: I am a scientist, with doctoral degrees in both electrical engineering and biology. I have been an environmentalist since high school in the '70's, and have watched in dismay as humans - particularly my beloved family and countrymen - ignore overwhelming scientific consensus and continue to trash the planet.
I have also been performing aerobatics, driving way too fast and engaging in other wasteful activities since the 70's. Schizophrenic? You bet. But, we live in the first age in history where we have realized an ancient dream and a human CAN actually fly through the air, like a bird. The point? I am definitely not claiming to be "Holier than thou", no one is lily white, and I believe technology will let us keep a reasonable amount of cake and eat it too.
I have always tried to take what can only be considered pretty dramatic steps in other areas to minimize my impact. Much more importantly, I have always supported stringent environmental policy decisions that could help to reduce human activity to sustainable levels because even if we all suddenly become far more virtuous in our personal lives than I've been, will not be able to do enough to avert disaster. Given appropriate actions over the past decades, we would not be in the fix we are in.
We are currently in the "Holocene Extinction Event", arguably the fastest species extinction rate in the 4.6B year history of the planet and leading to the loss of perhaps 50% of all species on earth by 2100. This is demonstrably due to human activity. Above and beyond the ethical and aesthetic concerns of all this, this web of life is what sustains us. Perhaps mother nature will start over and build another dominant species out of bees, but I don't want to force her to do it in our childrens lifetimes. This is no different from a concern for avoiding nuclear holocaust and Mutually Assured Distruction.
Global warming, a separate but related issue, has been within the mainstream of scientific opinion for a couple of decades, despite what people are told on Fox "News". There are not "thousands of scientists" or even hundreds of scientists that question the science.
Commonly it is misunderstanding of the scientific method that leads people to see controversy where there is broad consensus in the scientific community. In the interest of time I will not go into what is involved in scientific progress but let it suffice to say that if any scientist could find defendable data refuting global warming he/she could publish it tomorrow and become an instant, and wealthy, celebrity. Heck, I'd do it if I could...
Any good terrorist knows that a bit of fuel oil will spoil a whole reservoir of potable water. In the same way, Earth and its components such as the sea and atmosphere each have a carrying capacity. We have reached the limits and it really doesn't matter what the cause. I think that we are compelled to do what we can to rectify the situation.
Petrochemicals and other, higher uses mean that oil is already too precious to burn. Moreover, "clean" coal is a myth and anyone who's flown over West Virginia knows what I'm talking about.
Technology is the only hope for providing mankind with enough leverage to correct the damage that we have caused and to save ourselves. There are many alternatives to burning fossil fuel, and an Apollo project begun in the 70's would've fixed a good bit of this by now but we lacked the common knowledge and will to act.
It is both shameful and terribly, terribly sad that there are still so many people talking about "tree huggers" and other "enviro-whackos" and whatever, when it is really just people who have, for whatever reason, jumped on board the bus.
As someone who has been a fact-oriented environmentalist all my life, a part of me resents the "greening" of everything. Partly this is because there is so, SO much "greenwashing" going on by corporations from agribusiness to big oil that I fear the truth will remain lost to those less than truly interested in finding the objective facts.
More to the point, I recently have seen the same things that some of you do; i.e. that there is some element of blind religious acceptance of the "movement" without factual understanding.
I would argue that at least these people have decided to do something, regardless of whether they are doing the right things. This raised awareness is a valuable thing, because it is dismaying to perennially see "Concern For The Environment" at the very bottom of peoples lists of important political issues when in fact, there is nothing that could possibly be MORE important to humanity's collective survival than ecology - not even considering questions such as the survival of other species and the beauty of our planet.
The quasi-religious zealotry can sometimes lead to incredibly stupid decisions - on questions from tung oil to ethanol - but moving "The Environment" up onto people's radar screens surves the higher purpose of awareness, which is the bottom line need to get some things done before it is completely and utterly too late.
If we all chose to use local wood species, use hand tools when we can and power tools when we must, insulate and solar heat our shops, recycle and so forth, that is a big help.
However, to make meaningful progress on a national (and hence global) scale, we must also support regulations that clean up the power grid and our transportation systems, improve wetlands, reduce deforestation and monoculture, and what-have-you. If we can do those things, the population can level off at it's currently projected TEN BILLION people and we'll still probably be ok.
I truly apologize for what will no doubt be seen as "preaching" on the environment, but if I can get even one of you ladies and gentlemen to take your limited time look into the objective facts of the situation with sufficient additional depth to understand what is at stake, then it has been worth it. I'm also sorry for the length of this, it was some off the cuff free-association and as such, a bit verbose.
If anyone has actually read to the bottom of this message, thanks very much for your time.
Rob
Well Rob, I read to the bottom of the page. And, while I feel neither poor nor lonely, I appreciate your support and input. I especially like this: "It is both shameful and terribly, terribly sad that there are still so many people talking about "tree huggers" and other "enviro-whackos" and whatever, when it is really just people who have, for whatever reason, jumped on board the bus."That sentence pretty much sums up the reasons for my initial response. I simply cannot wrap my head around the idea that some people are so antagonistic toward others who are concerned for the environment and actually do something about it.
Global warming, a separate but related issue, has been within the mainstream of scientific opinion for a couple of decades, despite what people are told on Fox "News". There are not "thousands of scientists" or even hundreds of scientists that question the science.
Actually there was a conference about 2 years ago of concerned scientists who do no whole heatedly support the dogma that global warming is totally man made and therefore is controllable by us. It was attended by much more than a "few hundred" scientists but it wasnt carried in the news despite being held across the street in NYC from 3 of the major's.CBS, NBC and ABC. "if we ignore them they will just go away or convert".Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
"Actually there was a conference about 2 years ago of concerned scientists who do no whole heatedly support the dogma that global warming is totally man made and therefore is controllable by us. It was attended by much more than a "few hundred" scientists but it wasnt carried in the news despite being held across the street in NYC from 3 of the major's.CBS, NBC and ABC. "if we ignore them they will just go away or convert"."<!----><!----><!---->
Hi Cherryjohn,<!----><!---->
Well, actually, there wasn’t. <!----><!---->
I believe that you must be referring to the “International Climate Change Conference” of the New Zealand-based “International Climate Science Coalition”, which happened in March 2008 and was the first of its kind. The conference was attended by 500 persons including 100 claimed scientists, and most of those I know about have never published any work on global warming. The only American on the ICSC board is Scott Armstrong, who is a Professor of Marketing with a PhD in Management. <!----><!---->
The ICSC is a version of the usual suspects, a group of self-proclaimed experts who do little or no research on climate change, but who can always make time to serve on the advisory board of any organization that is trying to forestall action on global warming. You will no doubt be shocked - Shocked! - to find that this conference was sponsored by The Heartland Institute”, which is funded by – Surprise! – Exxon. <!----><!---->
For its part, the ICSC very zealously guards information as to the sources of its funding, as well as the history and economic roots of the organization. However, the executive director of the ICSC is Tom Harris, longtime oil-industry lobbyist turned, well, turned into a badly disguised energy-industry lobbyist. <!----><!---->
The main purpose of the conference was to unveil the “Nongovernmental International Panel on Climate Change” (NIPCC) report, edited by longtime oil industry lobbyist Fred Singer. The NIPCC document is the culmination of 5 years of work by 23 authors from 15 nations, many of whom are not even scientists, let alone climatologists. <!----><!---->
The Washington Post reported at the time that the Heartland Institute offered "$1,000 to those willing to give a talk," and "a free weekend at the Marriott Marquis in Manhattan, including travel costs, to all officials wanting to attend". The New York Times reported that the conference was largely framed to seem scientific in nature “... but when an organizer made an announcement asking all of the scientists in the large hall to move to the front for a group picture, [only] 19 men did so." <!----><!---->
I have neither time nor inclination to look into whether the network news shows actually covered this conference but I’d have to say that I have never seen network reportage on other modest-sized and undistinguished conferences of this “Flat Earth Society” ilk. There was no legitimate, objective reason to report on this one. NYC probably hosts a significant number of larger and more newsworthy conferences on any given day. <!----><!---->
Not surprisingly, the conference has been loudly trumpeted on Fox “News”. In the largest study on media bias to date, using simple and objective survey questions such as names of Supreme Court justices and other government leaders and so forth, the University of Maryland found that people who cite Fox as a major source of their news were the least-informed citizens in America, ranked behind major and local newspapers, Google, Yahoo, NPR, local broadcasts, and all other network and cable news sources. At risk of starting another controversy, I’d like to express my well-considered, well-founded and overwhelmingly defensible position that Fox News is demonstrably propaganda and not news. Any viewers who use it as a source of information, rather than as a source of comfortable shared opinions that may or may not be supportable by any objective truth, owes it to themselves to research the actual facts of the issues of interest to them. <!----><!---->
Cherryjohn, I think you cited the wrong quote from my admittedly hastily written posting. This is the applicable one: <!----><!---->
“Commonly it is misunderstanding of the scientific method that leads people to see controversy where there is broad consensus in the scientific community. In the interest of time I will not go into what is involved in scientific progress but let it suffice to say that if any scientist could find defendable data refuting global warming he/she could publish it tomorrow and become an instant, and wealthy, celebrity.” I stand by this statement. <!----><!---->
In sum, I did not intend to stir up an irrelevant (i.e. non-wood) controversy in this forum. I simply wanted to offer food for thought in defense of trying to preserve some of the already degraded earth for future generations, even though I have no children of my own. I apologize for jumping in and in the future, will refrain from doing so.
Rob
Rob, you have tried to inject facts and reason into this non-woodworking topic.You didn't stir up any controversy... that started with the original post. Please don't shy away from speaking the truth.
The original post started as nothing more than an observation about people who are green based and think they know it all about wood and wood finishing . Tung oil was the point at the time. I went on to say that they are willing to part with $$ if they think you subscribe to their religion and drink the Kool Aide. It was meant solely as an observation as to an opening, market wise, for wood workers . wasnt putting down their phiolsophy as long as they dont put down others. thats all. Now its evolved to global warming.......
the point was stated.." going green means you never have to apologize about the price"...pure and simple..
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Edited 10/1/2008 3:19 pm ET by cherryjohn
It is a religion, and in a religion if you disagree you are kicked out of church. Not knowing much about the conference in questions I would like to point out a few things. First off is the they are not published scientist. In most (if not all) scientific publications one has to be peer reviewed. So, you are asking someone who is not of the religion to write and article saying that the religion is false and this is why, then you expect them to get the members of the church to agree with them so it can pass the review and get published. Good luck with that. As for the number of people that stepped forward to get a photo taken this is more of the same. You are asking member to publicly support that the idea behind said religion is (or at least maybe) wrong. They do need to live and eat don't they, or where these scientist independently wealthy?
It is kind of like the issue with the study of Egypt. If you publish anything questioning the current accepted view on Egypt then you will not be given access to any of Historic Egyptian locations. This makes it all but impossible for a dissenting view to be heard. If you did publish something that was in opposition to the accepted view you would be doing massive harm to you professional live.
Doug M.
<!----><!----> <!---->Doug, your post exhibits a profound misunderstanding of the way science actually works. The process of peer-reviewing articles for publication consists primarily of evaluating the scientific rigor of the authors work processes. Very specifically, the process makes no attempt to evaluate whether the conclusions fit into any particular viewpoint. Disagreement is most welcome and indeed, it is both highly valued and fundamental to the entire process.
The quibbling over each esoteric, minor point is the principal mechanism by which sciences advance. Work that generates the most discussion and causes the most controversy is considered the most intellectually stimulating and the most scientifically useful, and such articles also generate the greatest buzz for the journal in which it is published. <!----><!---->
Moreover, those scientists that are among the first at finding data to refute a prevailing theory are held in the highest esteem, they garner the most research support, and they become the most called-upon representatives of their particular discipline in subsequent media and governmental proceedings of all kinds. Science is competitive, and the folks who can issue preliminary findings that disagree with prevailing wisdom are the most successful at attracting grant money. <!----><!---->
Serious science that shows promise in refuting some part of the current understanding of climate change, for example, would be greeted by a flood of petrodollars far in excess of anything available elsewhere. Far from being a profile in courage, standing to be counted early on is among the best ways to make one’s reputation, not to mention the big research bucks – provided there is any current or anticipated factual basis for the theory under discussion.
The science in this case is overwhelming but the door remains wide open for any dissenting views or refutations that might come along, as long as they are supported by a valid methodology. I submit that your unsubstantiated claim that “It is a religion” does not meet the validity test. My definition of “religion” in this context would be a belief system that is unsupported – or unsupportable - by means of a logical analysis of objective facts. I further submit that your claim is a great illustration of that definition. <!----><!---->
As a scientist and a born skeptic, I wholeheartedly welcome any and all factual information that might challenge my assumptions. As is my nature, I have looked at each of the non-supported claims made by the various persons in this posting. In each case, I have found them to be unsubstantiated and I have tried to bring the objective contravening facts back to this forum as gently as possible. <!----><!---->
I come to this forum to learn from those folks who are more knowledgeable and experienced about woodworking than I am, and I only chimed in on this post to help clarify the facts in a non-wood area in which I do have meaningful knowledge. Regrettably, I’ve now wound up in this lengthy discussion about a non-wood topic with folks whose minds already seem to be made up and who, like me, will be dead before any crisis comes to full fruition. <!----><!---->
My mistake was to assume that I was on solid ground because these folks would probably jump to correct anyone who played similarly fast and loose with information on a wood related topic. “Ketchup is a good substitute for tung oil.” “A dull saw blade will cut like new if you paint it red.” “You can remove planer snipe on hardwood with a magnet.” Etc. <!----><!---->
Imagine how difficult it would be to fully correct misstatements that contain such fundamental misunderstandings of the topics in question. I mean, where the heck do you start? My current answer to myself is that I shouldn’t have, so I will now withdraw, sadder but wiser, and remember in the future that all too often, the facts are the least of the discussion. I apologize for wasting everyones time.
Rob
Rob,Bravo. I think the only mistake you make is trying to inject facts into someone's beliefs. People will believe what they choose to believe and the facts be damned.I tend to think that those decrying "greenies" as a cult religion are more annoyed by being corrected. (accurately or not) But the issue I think has more to do with extremists or know-it-alls of any sort than anything exclusive to green marketing. I don't know this for a fact but I would guess there might be some Christians that claim to know the "correct and true" interpretation of the Bible. I could be wrong.There are always those that want to be more knowledgeable than the next person and take any opportunity to demonstrate their knowledge; accurate or not. I think of it as the "Cliff Klaven" effect; if you remember the old sitcom Cheers. This phenomena seems to be present on both the conservative and liberal sides of society.But I gotta say comparing someone with a "green" mindset to radical islamists is more than a little inflammatory. People that want to avoid chemicals and try to live a sustainable existence are hardly the equal of those that want to destroy societies and kill people that disagree with their philosophies.I don't think the greenies proselytize any worse than evangelicals; maybe thats a better comparison.I tend to think that since a customer is paying for services that they can have whatever finish they want, if you want to add a PITA charge thats up to you. I know I consider that PITA charge option whenever I sense that a customer is going to require more attention than usual.If someone wants to avoid a "toxic" finish; fine. They can tell me what they want. If they don't know, I'll try to help them to a point. Something to keep in mind is that customers are likely to be in shorter supply in the near future so anything that can be done to make your product a "must have" is a good thing.
The point of suggesting green extremism is on a level with radical Islam was not to point that greenies all will want to kill you,. The point was that both can be very intolerant of any other view. They look at an opposing view and subsequently the practice that follows as an affront to their religion. Devout Christians, I don't believe, have such intolerant views. I believe the FBI just said recently that Ecoterrorism is on the rise and it poses a huge threat. I do commend you for actually seeing that the original post was not putting down the Greenies but merely pointed out the tunnel vision that some have of what was acceptable and how it could be profitable. Give them what they want but......"ahhhh that's going to cost extra".
I use tung oil on my toys.....100% pure..... and the customer that originally prompted this post asked me where I got it. So I told her Woodcraft. " The tung oil from XYZ suplier is accepted by the green community. You should get your's there" she suggested Its 100% pure just like Woodcraft and the same price when you factor in shipping. She expected it to be more expensive and therefore I gave her what she wanted....... special order, "more expensive" tung oil. Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
We may not agree but I think "fundamentalist" is a more accurate comparison of some greenies but the problem is that some of their positions can be substantiated empirically. So the whole "religion" thing seems problematic in that you can't ever prove a religious belief. I used to manage a retail furniture store in the early nineties that also produced futon mattresses and we offered "hypo-allergenic organic" options. So I guess this was green before there was a name for it.It could be pretty annoying to me at the time when people I thought were a little wacky would grill me on the cotton type, where it was grown, how it was harvested, and yes; types of finish on our bedframes. Turns out they were on target about a lot of things, but annoying nevertheless. In retrospect it feels like I was a flatworlder being told that its really cylindrical. They might not have been right, but they were closer than I was.There were some things they were simply misinformed about but it wasn't my job to argue; I just worked there. But just because they were wrong about some things didn't make them wrong about everything.I get your point about what its like to deal with such a person but the intolerance is something I never had to deal with in this situation. I know some people will not be told that they are incorrect, where I grew up we just called them a-holes."Devout Christians, I don't believe, have such intolerant views.""Devout" Christians of course can be intolerant. Ever heard of Fred Phelps? He is an extremist with few followers but to a less extreme is James Dobson and he certainly has followers; both would claim to be devout Christians.I've lived in a couple places (native Kansan, lived in Portland, OR) that allowed me up-close and personal with jerks on both sides of the spectrum."Eco-terrorists" are of course criminals, but they attack property not people. They don't kill. I do want to say I am in no way sympathetic to them.But I also feel that the "you-name-it-terrorist" label gets placed on groups too freely. Kind of like when people go throwing "Na*i" and "Fascist" around, its a quick way to a common denominator.I can't say what the green-types are like in New Hampshire, but they can't be much worse than the ones in Oregon. And maybe Christians in Kansas aren't like what you have out there, if so you are lucky. I guess the issue I have is drawing the comparison of the green movement to such a "hot potato" as radical Islam. My understanding of the green movement is that its focus is getting society to think about the consequences of our actions and lifestyle choices. This seems like a good thing but it can be annoying to consider.As a woodworker taking into consideration my materials and practices seems pretty natural and it seems the green movement is just a macro application of that concept. I wouldn't classify it as a cult just because there are some jerks associated with it any more than I would my Christianity just because there are some jerks that are associated with it.However thanks for the thread to give me something else to think about besides the tanking economy. Really.
Edited 10/2/2008 4:34 pm ET by adastra001
please believe me when i tell you I love the Green movement. Opened up a market for me.
My wife and I were watching "her show" the other nite......Mad Men. If youre my age (58) you watch that show and look for places where they got it wrong ( dont tell me..I was there!!!!). Well in this last episode I noticed that Dan, the big guy on campus, was out with the family for a little picnic. It showed him drinking a beer....the beer can had....2 holes in the top. remember them days?.No pop tops?? well when he finished he threw the can into the woods.and his wife picked up the picnic cloth off the ground and left all the garbage right there..... my wife said " I dont ever recall doing that....but I do. Those producers have it accurate on how things used to be. We have come a long way and no doubt we have further to go. For me Im drinking the Green Kool Aide because there is money to be made in single mindedness and you dont have to worry about the WalMart pricing mentality.
This thread was not ment as a soap box for or against Green.......just the notion that there are people out there willing to pay a premium for their version of it and we are fools if we dont oblige them.Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
wineman:HA! You're right. I've always had the same thought when I have had doubts. "I'll know for sure some day"Cherryjohn:I'm 40 and I can recall those days in the seventies when it was nothing to toss your empty out the window. Hard to even think about doing that now!I'll take that note about Mad Men and get Netflix on it. I had been thinking about checking it out but if they are getting the details like you say sounds definitely worth the time. Besides I really love the style of the era.BTW I'm now living in Hawaii and have a whole new cultural experience going on. Hippies, Polynesia, Asian. Interesting stew.
Maui wowie?Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
No, big island.Haven't checked into Maui wowie, but it is strange being in a place where things grow so readily. Just went into the back yard yesterday and brought in about a dozen avocados the size of Nerf footballs. We also have several banana trees producing in the yard. Helps offset the cost of food at the grocery store when you can grow things easily at home.One thing I've learned is that living on an island so far from the mainland is this is a crash course in sustainability. We have a landfill problem and of course there is the .49/kw energy and milk thats $7/gal.On the woodworking front decent materials are not easy to come by and even though Koa grows in this island its still $30-40 bd/ft.Thinking about building stand up paddle surfboards, at least we'll have fun with them if they don't sell right away.
"I'm 40 and I can recall those days in the seventies when it was nothing to toss your empty out the window. Hard to even think about doing that now!"I'm 63 and learned as a child in the 50's not to be a "litterbug" and as a boy scout to leave only tracks and to take only pictures. Have you looked at the streets and highways these days? I don't see much difference in the propensity of jerks now to throw their trash out the car window or onto the sidewalks. The main difference between the 70's and now seems to be those "This highway adopted by" signs.
BruceT
Getting off track but one thing that is very surprising out here in Hawaii is to go to some of the most beautiful spots hiking etc, and find empty cans, abandoned vehicles, and appliances.Pretty strange when tourism is such a focus of the economy, but it is quite a bit smaller aspect over here on the east side of the Big Island. The west side (Kona area) is where all the fancy resorts are.Still pretty hard to imagine just dumping trash in the forest.
"...find empty cans, abandoned vehicles, and appliances. Still pretty hard to imagine just dumping trash in the forest."That's unimaginable to me. Careless littering on roads and streets is one thing, but what you describe has to be very deliberate.BruceT
Bruce,The dumping of rubbish (trash) in a beautiful place is often quite deliberate. Generally the dumper has motives that far outweigh any considertions of beauty (ours or theirs).In Britain the dumping of rubbish is known as fly-tipping. This is where someone with a lorry-load of nasty stuff will find a quiet spot to shed the trash, in order to avoid the inconvenience or cost of travelling to and using an "official" dump. Naturally, many of the most beautiful spots in the countryside are quiet, which suits the dumper as no one is likely to oversee his crime.But fly-tippers are but a small section of the dumper-offenders. Some of the worst are farmers who abandon every kind of crap on their land, from generations of rusting farm machinery, heaps of rubble from half-destroyed old buildings to heaps of rotting carcases. Like the fly-tipper, they claim "economic necessity" as their justification.Then there are the many industries who create rubbish on a huge scale. We are rid now of the thousands of old slag heaps from mining. (Or rather, they are disguised with a green skin, these days). But there are still many industries that dump nasty stuff into the environment, even when it's illegal or very dangerous. The fines imposed on their blatant crimes are merely worked through the balance sheet so that we, the consumers of their products, end up paying.And do we have to mention what virtually all nations dump legally into the oceans? Even today, many of the smaler seas around the world are turning into toxic ponds, despite various environmental laws, cleanup campaigns and so forth. In the end, big business will buy government complicity - and we too will all give a passive "OK" as we buy their products and enjoy the convenience.In truth, we are are all fly-tippers, one way and another. I salve 1% of my own conscience by extracting "waste" wood from heaps of trash and going around the vilage picking up litter. This is a pathetically small recompense for my "trash footprint" elsewhere on the planet.Lataxe
CJ,I believe you are correct in comparing them folk that do green-like gestures with the other lot who go through various motions involving snakes, hymns, goblets of blood or whatever fetish they believe will somehow make them good and save them. How folk love to go through ritual in an effort to outdo the rest in the "I'm best" stakes.Still, selling a "green" bit o' furniture to such naive gulls seems somewhat like a friar selling a relic to a daft Christian. Both are merely bits of wood and the seller is a scoundrel.Lataxe
not if the Christian is estatic with the purchase.........
a good deal happens when both come out smilingWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
CJ,You have a good point there. It is amazing what strange things will please folk. Perhaps it's some variation of the train-spotting meme?Lataxe
Radical is fine as long as they respect your right to be less than radical. Heres is where the religion of the green movement comes in though. They look at you as destroying their ability to worship if youre not quite up to their standards. I tell you, the more I see it the more I equate this with radical Islam.
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Funny that you should say that. While I was at the store they were handing out chocolate as free samples. When the question of tung oil and its possible reaction to people came up I mentioned that there are a lot of people that are allergic to chocolate. The response was ' well they can take it or leave it". I said that my tag on all my toys says they are treated with tung oil.......and in the same manner they can take it or leave it. If I wasn't so determined to win them over Id walk away. All this for $120 order. 25 years as a sles rep.........I cat walk away from a deal.
"winning isnt everything , its the only thing"...............Vince LombardiWicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Doubleyeh,
I thought about it. You're saying you know where the Big Button is that a wise one such as yourself may press to make the planet all better agin? Shurely this will shut up all the politicians and greenies with one fell swoop, just as you say.
Git to pressin' it then! I look forward to permanent blue skies with sunny weather and a motor car that runs on air. Also, John Wayne will come and sweep away the bad guys. Huzzah!
Lataxe
WM,
Yes, those self-proclaimed experts are everywhere! Some have even lodged in Knots. :-)
The worst kind are the politicians and celebrities who mistake a cheer for their policy on the price of milk, or for their latest popular ditty, for universal popularity. They then do a hooplah with this assumption and persuade themselves that all their opinions are popular. They also equate "popular" with "correct". So many logical errors.
Still, we need not dismiss all the real experts, who have spent lifetimes measuring stuff and refining their models of reality. Some make wonderously engineered thangs or even better wine than the French made in 1934. Some gain an understanding of the planet's climate changes, ecological changes and even the effects of zillions of busy little humans clogging up the biosphere.
At bottom, I prefer the stories from these kind of experts to the indignant hootings of Mr Oil Billionaire or his paid-for hench-liar on Polecat news.
Not that what you or me think will make the slightst difference to the unfolding of events, what e're they may be.
Lataxe, enjoying his Indian summer (winter's coming).
but...then the agnostics would say......... you're beyond proving
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
You should have more respect for your customers. You should have more respect for those who are trying to do the right thing, even if you disagree with them. You should have compassion for those who know less about wood finishing than you do, for certainly, you have found yourself in the same place about many a topic. It is difficult to respect someone who is always tearing other people down and that is often what you do in your posts here at Knots. There is just too much of that in the world today anyway.
BTW - do you really know what is in the bottle of Tung Oil from China? If they put poison in their food, what kind of horrible filth is hiding in that oil?
first......the tung oil ORIGINATED in China 1000 years ago.......... the tung oil I use does not come from China!!..........
Secondly.I have total respect for customers who know what they are talking about. In cases where they dont know what thet are talking about I still have total respect....for their money. " you want it special?....thats gonna cost you........... ( even if it doesnt cost me)".
Guess you didnt read the qriginal post either huh.
you seem to like to generalize especially about me constantly tearing people down............. I currently have about 5-6 messages posted in Knots including this one. Show me an instance of me tearing anyone down. Posting an opinion that is contrary to yours is not putting someone down.
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Edited 10/4/2008 8:30 am ET by cherryjohn
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