Replies

1. 
   Alan | Nov 23, 2004 02:42am | #1

   duke-one,

   You should have been able to shave with your edge tools long before now.  I don't have a Tormek, but from I've heard and read about them you should be getting an extremely sharp edge with just your Tormek grinding wheel and strop.  Most people I know who have a Tormek don't use a buffing wheel, and are more than satisfied with the edges they get right off their Tormeks.

   The above was a gentle way of saying that perhaps you might want to see why your Tormek isn't getting your tools sharp enough.  The other Tormek users will have to help you, I know very little about that machine, but I think there must be something going wrong somewhere.

   Another thing, though, I wouldn't let a buffing wheel get anywhere near my edge tools.  I've tried it, and I've learned about others buffing edge tools, and it's pretty clear that buffing wheel dubs edges, making them duller than they were before they were buffed.

   Again, I'd try to improve the edge you get straight off your machine.  If you still feel you should have sharper edges, I would say to get a flat strop and maybe a 5000 or 6000 grit stone.  There are plenty of people who use a polishing stone after using their Tormek.

   Alan

1. 
   RickL | Nov 30, 2004 04:55pm | #7

   You clearly haven't tried a hard white felt buff. If used properly it does enhance an edge tools sharpness. Used improperly it will dull the edge. There's a lot of different ways to sharpen tools and no wrong way if you can master the technique. In this day of gadgets and gizmos folks have lost touch of what the true craftsmen of the past did more with less.

1. 
   Alan | Dec 01, 2004 03:29am | #8

   rick3ddd,

   Perhaps you're right, that a properly used "hard" buffing wheel would improve the edges I get.  However, I can't imagine that it would be worthwhile for the insignificant improvement buffing would make.

   The latest fashion in sharpening seems to be Shapton stones.  I know some woodworkers who have spent real money, and continue to spend their time rubbing their tools on a 12,000x Shapton stone--and some use even finer Shaptons.  It's a waste.  There's no point in going beyond a 6000x or 8000x waterstone, or its equivalent.  Certainly higher than 8000x you reach the point of rapidly decreasing returns: the slight improvement in a tool's edge will make no difference at all to the tool's performance or the life of the edge.  As Lee also reminds us, there really isn't a Western stone that's as fine as a 6000x waterstone; yet centuries of master woodworkers seemed to be able to do just fine without them.

   You may recall there have been some discussions around here about the finest grit sandpaper that ought to be used on raw wood before finishing.  The most knowledgable around here agreed that in general going much beyond 220 is wasted effort.  I'm convinced it's the same for sharpening:  it's simply wasted effort to do more than a proper job up to a 6000x or 8000x waterstone, and then strop.  After all, Leonard Lee's most basic sharpening kit has only a 4000x stone; and he clearly has no use for anything finer than an 8000x stone.

   BTW, using stones and a strop is what the "true craftsmen of the past" did--and often without the strop.  I've never seen an account of an old master who used a buffing wheel, or an old "how to" such as Moxon, or an inventory of their tools such as Mercer's, that included a buffing wheel.  So who has lost touch?

   Alan

1. 
   RickL | Dec 01, 2004 05:20pm | #9

   A hard felt wheel would be power stropping. Just faster than the old fashioned stropping. What ever works!

1. 
   KeithNewton | Dec 02, 2004 05:32am | #10

   I have a disk of MDF on one of my grinder stations which I use the white compound on after using a cratex wheel after the grinder. The MDF holds the compound without rounding the sharpness angle.
   I can take the used bur off of a 3" long scraper, which I sharpen like a chisel or plane blade, and go through this 3 step process, and have a new bur rolled on an edge in under one minute that will still shave after the bur is rolled.
   I do everything by eye though. I have never understood why so many people have to rely on all of those jigs. They seem like such a waste to me.

2. 
   Alan | Dec 02, 2004 12:02pm | #11

   rick3ddd,

   Using a buffing wheel to strop an edge is faster than the "old fashioned" way?  I'll bet the farm I can strop an edge before your machine can get up to speed.  Plus, I don't have to worry about dubbing the edge.

   But, as you say, whatever works.  Many people feel more comfortable and think they're doing a better job when they use machines.

   Alan

    

3. 
   RickL | Dec 02, 2004 08:31pm | #12

   I'd be surprised if you could  strop it faster than using the buff and until you try it, it's purely specualtion on your part.  You can buy leather stropping wheels too.   I went with a sandpaper /buffing system years ago.  Hmmmm!   Scary sharp under power years before all these postings about the scary sharp method and  seems that Lee Valley just reinvented it in their new sharpener.  Whatever works. Many things have been reinvented several times over the years. I'm still waiting for folks to finally get the concept of the "horizontal slot mortiser"!!!!

4. 
   Alan | Dec 03, 2004 12:00pm | #13

   rick3ddd,

   I don't know why you think I haven't tried buffing my cutting tools.  I have.  Yes, hard wheels too.  I seriously doubt you use anything I haven't come across at least once.

   As to me stropping a tool faster than you on your machine, I'll cover any bet you care to make.  Before we do, though, we need to agree what we mean by 'stropping'.  I think we may mean different things.

   From things you've said it seems like you use your buffing wheel more like a very fine grit stone.  I get the impression you use the buffing wheel to remove a little more steel to perfect the polish.

   You can put buffing compounds on leather strops, and they will add a tiny bit to the polish--if you spend long enough time at the strop.  I put a little loose aluminum oxide powder on mine, but I spend no more than three or four seconds stropping a tool (if that long).  Two back-and-forth swipes is the most any tool gets: up on one side, down on the other side, and then once more--with feeling.

   All I'm trying to do when I strop is to remove that teeny-tiny little itsy-bitsy burr left by my last polishing stone--if it left one at all.  That I use a leather strop probably leaves the fellow who taught me most of the little I know revolving like a pinwheel.  After he took a tool from his last stone, he stropped it as he walked the four steps back to his bench--on the palm of his hand.  If he didn't want to use his hand for some reason he would strop his tool on his overalls.  That's what I mean by "stropping."

   Alan

5. 
   joinerswork | Dec 03, 2004 04:27pm | #14

   Alan,

   I, too have stropped on the heel of my hand.  Also on the side (not the sole, please) of my shoe.  Brown paper bag works too.

   Regards,

   Ray

2. 
   AlanTurner | Nov 23, 2004 03:21am | #2

   KDM
   I have the tormek, and use it for grinding, but not honing. I also would not buff. I think it rounds over the edge of the tool. I prefer to take my chisels and plane irons right to the waterstones off the Tormek, and finish with 8000, which is quite shavable.

   Alan

   http://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com

1. 
   dukeone | Nov 23, 2004 03:41am | #3

   I have thought I was getting a good edge with the Tormek, maybe I am blaming other problems on not quite good enough edges. I am just a year or two into woodworking and love to buy tools hoping that the next one will solve the x,y or z problem.  If it does not, well I have another fine tool. I am working on techique with books and F.W.W. and some videos.

   So you are saying from the Tormek to the waterstones? And skip the Tormek leather honeing wheel? What grit would you go to first? I use a leather strop with aluminum oxide inbetween sharpinings but I am never quite sure if things are sharp enough.

   Thanks all, KDM<?xml:namespace /><o:p> </o:p>

   Kenneth Duke Masters<o:p />

   The Bill of Rights December 15 1791<o:p />

   NRA Endowment Member<o:p />

   LEAA Life Member<o:p />

   CRPA Member<o:p />

   <o:p> </o:p>

1. 
   AlanTurner | Nov 23, 2004 02:23pm | #4

   KDM
   What I do, if that is what you are asking, is use Shapton stones. I have the 3 stone set from toolsforworkingwood.com and they are 1000-5000-8000. I use the Eclipse sharpening jig, to hold an accurate angle. When I freehand sharpen, I end up with some rounding, which quickly increases the angle. Once the primary bevel is ground, I do not return to the Tormek until I nick the blade or iron. Just the Shaptons are fine.
   You will need to keep the Shaptons flat, and this I do with a piece of very flat granite, 12 x 12, and use a silicon carbide grit, but what grit I use I do not recall. Some water and I can flatten all 3 in about 2 minutes. This I need to do after maybe 15 or so chisels or plane irons. They are much harder than a typical waterstone.Alanhttp://www.alanturnerfurnituremaker.com

   Edited 11/23/2004 9:06 am ET by s4s

2. 
   Alan | Nov 24, 2004 03:56am | #5

   duke-one,

   I guess it doesn't matter which Alan you ask; you seem to get the same answers from both.

   Alan s4s knows, and I do not, the limits of a Tormek.  All I know is what I have gleaned from others.  Heed what he says about the right way to use yours.

   I would add, though, that you might want to thoroughly check the way you use your machine, just to be sure you're getting the performance you should.

   I would also suggest that you check the universal sharpening basics:  for example, be sure the backs of your tools are dead flat where it matters; check often as you go through your routine to make sure you're not somehow dubbing the edge at some step; etc., etc., ad nauseum.

   Again, Alan s4s knows better than I do (beware, the ubiquitous 'but' must sneak in about now) but (ha! I thought so!) I think you should be getting a better edge right off your machine; perhaps not the best possible edge, but better than you're getting now.

   Alan--no, the other one. 

3. 
   pritcharded | Nov 24, 2004 05:08am | #6

   KDM

   I have a Tormek and I'm surprised that you're not getting a better result. Before  investing in a different system it might be worth your while checking out the following:

   • Is the grindstone really flat - has it ever been trued
   • Are you using the fine side of the "stone grader" on the wheel before moving to the honing wheel?
   • Has the back face of the cutting tool been properly prepared (ie: is it flat and polished)?
   • When did the honing wheel last get a coating of oil? Has the leather dried out?
   • Are you regularly reloading the honing wheel with the appropriate abrasive paste?
   • If you're using the jig to hone, it can be a bit tricky to set it such that the actual edge is being contacted. Are you marking the fresh bevel with a black marker pen before honing to check that the wheel actually contacts the whole bevel including the edge.
   • When the bevel is like a mirror, are you then gently honing the back face (care is needed to keep surface tangential to the honing wheel)?
   • Have you revisited the manual? The full Tormek manual is available on line (http://www.tormek.com/index_gb.htm) and it gives very detailed instructions.

   If you are doing everything right you will have no trouble getting an edge sharp enough to shave hair. I also have an 8000 grit stone and it also gives me a good edge - but to be honest it doesn't get much use anymore.

   Ted