The local electrical permit and inspection bureau has stopped my remodeling project for a 1600 sq ft one person artisan woodworking business. The argument is that woodworking produces “fibers and flyings” (f&f) which makes woodworking shops a Class III hazard in the National Electric Code (NEC). This is I thought a tenuous position – explanatory note 1 to NEC 500.5(D)(1) gives as examples of locations producing f&f as “…textile mills, clothing manufacturing plants, woodworking plants…” and explanatory note 2 says “Easily ignitible fibers and flyings include rayon, cotton…jute, hemp, … spanish moss, excelsion, and other materials of similar nature.”
The bureau says the elec code makes no exception for [business] size so 1600 sq ft/1 employee is a woodworking plant, and that sawdust is an “other material of similar nature.” I haven’t found a definition of woodworking “plant” or “fibers and flyings” in the NEC.
I pointed out that the National Electric Code (NEC) is one part (NFPA 70) of a collection of National Fire Protection Association codes and standards, and that another part, “NFPA 664 Standard for the Prevention of Fires and Explosions in Wood Processing and Woodworking Facilities” says in the 3rd sentence “This standard shall apply to woodworkingoperations that occupy areas of more than 465 sq meters (5000 sq ft) or where ddust-producing equipment requires an aggregate dust collection flow rate of more than 2549 cubic meters/hr (1500 cubic fpm).” The bureau said NFPA 664 isn’t part of NFPA 70.
I said wood dust is covered as a potential Class II hazard. They said the “sawdust” produced by a table saw is an f&f and therefore a Class III hazard.
I’ve been ranting for a couple weeks to no avail. My last chance to submit an appeal is Monday.
Anyone have any supportable argument for any or all of:
1) the NEC (or at least “Article 503 Class III Locations” is not intended to be aplied without exception to all operations large AND SMALL
2) the sawdust, chips, et cetera produced by a tablesaw, bandsaw, planer, jointer, and edge sander are NOT “fibers and flyings”
Eventually I hope to propose to FW a series of technical articles, drawing in experts from its sister publication FHB, on electric and building code issues and how they affect small scale woodworking.
Thanks. Don Stephan
Replies
Have you shown any intension for dust collection in your plans? This might be enought to show the problem is/will be addressed. This sounds like a case of someone is pissed about something.
Yes, the electric drawings clearly show a dust collector with a .5 micron filter cartridge.Avoiding the permitting process is not an option.. . .
What Steve said (saw him pop in there as I was mid-way through typing this...)
They're not telling you that you can't do the remodel at all, are they? These woodworking "plants" exist elsewhere in all sizes. So what are they telling you to do to meet their "Class III Hazard" requirements?charlie -- "Count your blessings....it could always be worse!"
What would it take to comply with their interpretation of the codes?
"Eventually I hope to propose to FW a series of technical articles, drawing in experts from its sister publication FHB, on electric and building code issues and how they affect small scale woodworking."
That would be nice, but I doubt that they would have any direct influence on code enforcement officials.
-Steve
Is there any possibility that a neighbor who has some pull with the city has instigated this?? Their logic sounds flawed to me, and as though perhaps they are reaching for a pre-determined conclusion.
Apply for an extension if you can. Look for other comercial shops like yours and ask them for advice.
I feel your pain. It sounds like you are willing to go over and beyond to meet reasonable standards.
Try taking the business impact argument. I am assuming that you are not grossing over $200,000. Explain that you are not a million dollar grossing business and implementing these levels of enviromental and mechanical controls represents an "unreasonable burden" on your buisness. $1,000 is not a lot of money to most of the manufacturing businesses that come before the board, but that represents XX percent of your average monthly gross and cannot be supported by a small operation whos intent is to serve the local comunity.
Also you are not "manufacturing" wood work. You are providing a service. In IRS terms and for local tax purposes there is a big difference. I do not build stuff to sell, I build things for a specific client. Therefore I do not need to keep inventory or pay sales tax (Texas law).
Sounds like you have a tough battle. Good luck, and let us know. If FWW is not interested in your experiences I am. Please post as detailed a synopsis of your experiences and what you have learned as you can.
Thank you
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Maybe you need to think of another way to classify your business. There may be another type of business which has more relaxed codes close to what you are planning that will get you under the wire. Once you are up and running, you probably will never see them again.
When I was looking into buying my shop in a historic neighborhood, a cabinet shop or furniture manufacturing business would not fly. However, there were people at a level who were able to help, who thought that an artisan studio was a good fit for this neighborhood who pointed out that a re-finishing business would be OK, so that was what I applied for my permit for. . I didn't lie, I have done some of that type work.
You are not trying to move into a mall where there are shops that will bet dusted by your proximity, are you? It sounds like they are making this a bit too hard to me.
Since we are talking about getting up and running. Don't overlook getting insurance. I had insurance with a company for 20 years with no claims. Then I was hit by a tornado, with a $12000 claim, which then doubled my premium, while they had been upping the premium steadily all along. Finally my agent thought they were too high, so we found a new under-writer. Well after I dropped the first policy, the second one said, Woops, we didn't notice that this was a wood-shop. Sorry we can't cover you. Well, I went about 3 months pulling my hair out, before finding someone to cover me. Company A didn't want me back even for three times the premium.
I don't know what is driving this. I just don't hear of many wood-shops exploding or burning even. Life should be easier than this.
If you have any connections with someone of high political standing, you should give them a call, and explain your situation. Tell them that you are taking your business to china or Mexico if they don't want you bringing business to their neighborhood. You need someone to pull a few strings for you.
Go to the codes commission and make your case. There will be more heads there and a diverse perspective. I'm afraid the lingering demon may be the fear of dust explosion. Once somebody gets one of these stories out, its like a cancer. (Consider the mold controversy. You can eat most of it, but somebody died once and now the rule is fear.) Address the level of activity at which you will be operating. How many bd ft will you process in a given time span. Dilute the danger, don't negate it. They don't like being told they are unreasonable. And somehow try to slip in how helpful they have been in assisting you to see the whole picture of what you are doing. Basically, its a sales job. You're in business...sell yourself.
Just an update for anyone interested.
I submitted a four page appeal, arguing that a 1600 sq ft one person woodworking shop was not intended to be submitted to literal application of all parts of the National Electric Code (NEC), and that "fibers and flyings" as used in the NEC do not explicitly include sawdust. The electrical inspection bureau is a for profit private corporation unrelated in any way to the city building dept, and they denied all arguments of my appeal. The president of the bureau said they want to avoid any accumulation of combustible material that could be ignited by a spark, and were interpretating the NEC accordingly.
There is no appeal board beyond the bureau, so I had to hire an electrician and submit to their ruling.
For general information, I was able to obtain through the local fire department access to on-line National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA) documents, one of which is the NEC.
Both the 2005 and 2008 editions of the NEC do not explicitly include sawdust in "fibers and flyings" although a couple others do (e.g. NFPA 505 Fire Safety Standard for Powered Industrial Trucks Including Type Designations, Areas of Use, Conversions, Maintenance, and Operation).
My concern is that the NEC as written allows an electrical inspection agency to find that any woodworking operation that has a lathe or that could use a hand-held router to be a Class III location, even with a working dust collection system electrically locked to require operation anytime a table saw, jointer planer, band saw, planer, edge sander, wide belt sander, ... is operating.
There is no effective way to capture waste as it's generated at a lathe, and no way to electrically lock together a hand held router and dust collector. Therefore any woodworking business with a lathe or hand-held router by definition is a Class III location. The local electric bureau could rationalize that only the immediate area of the lathe would be a Class III location, and overlook the hand held router, but the bureau could not be forced to do so. The result could be to require that ALL electric junction boxes, switches and plugs be dustproof. The result is that all wiring, even behind walls, would have to be in conduit with dustproof boxes. Standard receptable plugs (also called duplexes) would not be allowed, because they allow dust into the junction box. Instead, I suspect short sections of hard use round SJ cord (such as used for extension cords) would have to be connected to the box with a dust proof strain relief and terminate with a plug. This would be the only way to use corded tools such as drills, routers, biscuit cutters, et cetera.
The effect would be to push small woodworking shops underground and/or into rural areas, both of which would greatly hinder marketing and selling of products.
Individual businesses do not have the financial ability to fight this battle, I only hope Fine Woodworking will recognize the threat this poses to its readership and undertakes a campaign to achieve exemption for small woodworking shops.
Don,
It is unfortunate that you are in this situation.
The NEC in its' introduction allows for local jurisdiction to have governing authority, and that the governing authority may have stricter interpretations of the electric code.
Shy of getting a lawyer and paying all kinds of experts to plead your case. You are doing the right thing by going with the dust proof requirements. Your shop will be safer, and I might add, alot less expensive than pursuing the other route.
Good luck in your new shop,
Chris.
I think you are incorrect in your interpretation of the NEC and the local codes.
I think you miss the point, this is not his interpretation it is the local code reviewers.
Doug
GHR:I'm confused by your response. Do you think the NEC intends to include the waste generated by table saws, lathes, planers & jointers, edge sanders, and hand-held routers in "fibers and flyings"?
and no way to electrically lock together a hand held router and dust collector.
Don... while I sympathise with the hassle you're having, my own experience re the quote above runs contrary to your statement; I've been using hand held power tools connected through a PTO built into my shop vac... fire up the tool, the vac powers up... kill the tool and the vac powers down...I appreciate that I'm on the opposite side of the pond, but these things have been commonplace here for years..Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
If you look at his earlier posts you see that the "auto-vac plug outlet" is not good enough by these standards.
I too am very disheartened by your (origional poster) problems. I know that I would not have been able to start my business if I had to comply to such regulations. They are obviously not intended to stiffle the small craftsman, but to protect the comunity from the dangers of a large comercial operation.
As crass and reneck as it sounds, all I can think while reading your posts is..... "Thank God for Texas".Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
If you look at his earlier posts you see that the "auto-vac plug outlet" is not good enough by these standards.
Bear with me Mike.. as I said, I'm not familiar with your codes and standards..
if yer Mk1 shop vac isn't good enough to enable small hand held tools to meet the code, is there a viable alternative..??Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
The local electrical inspection bureau insisted that relays be hard-wired between the cyclone dust collection wiring and the wiring for the table saw, ... They weren't willing to trust me to turn on the dust collector before turning on the table saw, and that would be the equivalent of trusting me to plug in a hand held tool to an auto vacuum like the Festool and similar. That's why I forsee the electrical requirements escalating unless national attention is drawn to the situation.Sorry, Tex, but the NEC is a national electric code and likely adopted by your state as well.
hmmmmmmmm.... auto-sense seems a bit over the top, not to mention adding a ton of strain to the DX's motor. Might be better to electrically interlock the circuits; none of the shop tools can power up unless the DX is already running... Much the same thing electrically, just means the DX is subject to less start ups...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Edited 10/22/2007 8:15 pm by Midnight
That seems to be one of the options. But that gets more complicated with routers and mobile machines.
As for Texas. These codes aren't new. They have been there for a long time. it is up to local municipalities to adopt, ignore, or add to those codes. In Texas you do not even have to have an electritions license to preform electrical repairs or instalations*. (*most municipalities do require a license). There is also no general contractors license, cabinet maker license, etc... In your case it sounds like the powers-that-be are being overly liberal in applying these codes. Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Just wanted to provide a final report. The indep elec inspection bureau approved a set of five 220V contactors that are not closed unless the dust collector is operating. An extra piece of romex from the dust collector motor switch closes all 5 contactors, one for each of the table saw, band saw, jointer, planer, and edge sander. The contactors do not turn on the pieces of equipment; rather, each is a switch in the wiring to a piece of equipment. If the contactor is open, then power is not reaching the switch for the table saw, ..., and it cannot be turned on. Once the contactor is closed (the dust collector is on), then the switch on the table saw can turn the saw on and off.All of the equipment was purchased from Grainger's. The contactors are 25A, 2 pole, Grainger number 2CF93. They are mounted on a "back plate" or enclosure inner panel, number 3A930, which in turn is mounted in a "NEMA 12/13 enclosure," number 6XC05.When the inspector came out for the final, he again expected the dust collector to be interconnected with the general lighting, so that the dust collector would come on whenever the lights were turned on. He also said, in response to a question, that they would expect a wood lathe to be interconnected to the dust collector if one were present. They just want to jump on the bandwagon and treat every woodworker, no matter how small, as a production shop.There's nothing wrong with requiring the interconnection and a dust collector. They should have told me at the very beginning, during a consultation I paid for, however of the requirement so that I could plan for it, rather than stop work on the remodelling for several weeks.Nuff whining, hope everyone had a good week.
Hi DON,
It's a miracle our economy is still working. Sorry for your situation.
" Instead, I suspect short sections of hard use round SJ cord ( such as used for extension cords ) would have to be connected to the box with a dust proof strain relief and terminate with a plug. "
Just curious. Is the above statement your interpretation or a code requirement? Because that device still leaves an open plug end for dust intrusion.
Best of luck,
Paul
I saw that described in a section of the NEC, although right now I can't remember where. I think it was in Section 503 on acceptable wiring methods for Class III locations as recognition that normal duplexes would not be dustproof. I agree that the plug itself would be susceptible to dust intrusion. Perhaps it was mentioned as recognition that there has to be accomodation for corded equipment, and that the plug would be out in the air and not inside a junction box?
IMO, this government reg stuff has gone over the top, and there's no end in sight. It's no wonder we're losing jobs overseas: our own bureaucracy keeps adding more and more hoops with greater complexity, delay and expense. We are being legislated and regulated out of business.
Every Couple years around here we get a new set of Building Codes, and every time they make things harder to comply with. Do we really think that we need to improve a house design every 2 to 3 years? This is Mich. Not California with its earth quakes or Florida with its Hurricanes. Only thing we have are tornados and if a big one hits your house is just gone (unless it was built from concrete) and their is not building code in the world that will help with that. So what is the point? Other then that all the legal types (and this goes for Congress on down to the local city level) needs to justify his existence with new laws.
Latest thing they are talking about in this state is requiring an arc fault interrupter like we need in bed rooms in the whole house. If this happens it will make a major increase in the cost of the house (these things are not cheep) and most of them don't work very well. They limit how many outlets can be on a circuit and how much wire to a small number, and this will increase the number of circuits needed (odd how the city permits are paid on a per circuit basis) And I have never seen one that will hold a large load, heck my sisters house hers will not even run a hair dryer. So figure what will happen when you try to use tools in you wood shop.
Frankly the local inspectors are out of control in a lot of towns. Some of them are good (and some are even very good) but a lot of them are not.
Doug
Lets face it, this is just a money grab. Nothing else.Is there any way to fight this stuff where you are?
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Doug,
Like Peter said, ANOTHER money grab. That's the new way; make it more complicated and you have to hire someone to do the work. Creates jobs man! Bullfeathers.
Are you telling us that you have to retrofit your wiring in an existing structure? Now, that's a first!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
While a money grab, it is also a way for the do-gooders to micromanage everyone else's moves.
My son is building a home. He had to get an "engineer" to make a drawing of where his dirt driveway entrance will be. Only $700. Three things don't make sense about this.
How critical is a drawing of his driveway entrance?
He hasn't put a shovel in the ground yet and his permits have taken over a year and are up in excess of $7,000.
And what the hell does a guy who runs a train know about driveways, anyway?
I'm in the real-estate business and just ruin wood for fun. I have a lot of run-ins with the building department as a home owner and as a Realtor and the building department in Alameda CA is out of control you will get a different answer for every question from every person in the department as well as each person asking the same question will get a different answer. It has gotten so building department is asking for drawings of whole houses and floor plans to be done buy an architect for non structural remodel work such as kitchen counter-tops in houses. We actually had the head of the planing department tell us "the good news is you don't need a building permit to paint or change a light bulb". Troy
"the good news is you don't need a building permit to paint or change a light bulb".
I wouldn't need one for changing counter tops, either. I figure whatever I do inside my own house is nobody's business.
Harry
Following the path of least resistance makes rivers and men crooked.
I share your sentiment. However it appears that in more and more jurisdictions if you don't grovel then pay parasitic government employees a great deal of money to shuffle useless paper around, you could end up doing hard time. Ick.End of rant.Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
"I wouldn't need one for changing counter tops, either. I figure whatever I do inside my own house is nobody's business."OK for DIY, but a licensed contractor remodeling a kitchen risks losing his ticket for not pulling that permit.
BruceT
The scary thing about this is in Alameda where I live somebody is going around to open houses and if they see something like counter tops that have been done with out permits they file a complaint with the building dept. and you end up with a red flag on your permit history and you can't get a permit without clearing the complaint you can't get a building permit. It gets worse the fine for doing un-permitted work the fine is 4 times the permit cost plus the permit so a kitchen counter-top would be called a kitchen remodel and the permit cost is about 1000.00 dollars so you are out 5k. But it gets worse Alameda has two point of sale ordnances the require a permit one is a automatic shut-valve for the gas meter and the other is a sewer lateral test requirement and you need a permit for both so if your property is flagged you can't get a permit so your property sale is held up. Anyway I just can't say enough about how instead of being there to help the building dept. is just making everybody's live hell.Troy
Oh, the beauty of living out in the country, although I now border the town. In building a house, garage, and a barn, I had to get one permit - a $10 permit to put in a driveway. This guarantees that if the state ever changes the road that they will fix my driveway to fit it.
Tinkerer,
Oh, the beauty of living out in the country
Hear ya on that. Four years ago I put a new metal roof on our house and one of the selectmen stopped by and asked me why I hadn't pulled a permit for it. I said that because the roof was leaking I was replacing it.
He told me, "You're doing a nice job, have a great day."
On another occasion I was remodeling our breezeway (putting up drywall, replacing lights - not wiring new and adding crown molding) and the Town Manager stopped by.
She also asked why I hadn't pulled a permit; to which I responded that I was simply making this living space that we are taxed on, liveable. After a cup of coffee she asked how the fishing was out behind the old dam........
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That is a great reason to get out of town.Troy
Arc fault interrupter in the bedroom ;-O My gut has cramps from laughing so hard !!!!!!!!!
Thats got to be one of the best things I've read on knots.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
I guess what I've missed or perhaps overlooked in all of this is the end result. Whats the difference between having your place classed one way or another. I'm sure there's a dollar sign involved, but I dont know what it is or what changes get you there.
I won't play the "not that way here" card . . . I'm just glad I'm not there. It does sound, on its face, like someone being exceptionally zealous with rules interpretation.
Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
Well keep a couple of things in mind. First off the whole country is moving to a unified code book. It has special codes for special things. Like seismic in Cal. OR wind in Florida or snow load in Mich. But it will (soon) be the standard. It is based on the so called IBC (international Building Code) so this mess will be in everyone's area soon.
As for the dumb questionable interpretations I want to do a cable railing (a metal cable for the "can not pass a 4' Sphere" and a wood top rail. But somehow this is considered a "Ladder" and that is a no no. Of course I do not see anything in the code stating this is a no no as long as I do not have a swimming pool on the other side, but the fact that it is not in the book dose not seam to mean anything unless I want to get a lawyer and take it to court. This would not be a good thing so.....
But I can go on and on and on. Being as I do this for a living, I have a ton of these. What really gets me is that it took something like 14 permits and twice that many inspections to get a 2400 sq ft house built. I did a 22,000sq ft store addition with some really fancy stuff and really high end power. And a bunch of other things that make my house look like a doll house and yet the permits needed was only 6 or 7. But go figure.
Doug
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