Replies

1. 
   RW | May 20, 2003 02:34am | #1

   ENVY

   I'm green with it about now . . .

   "The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb "      lyrics by Roger Waters

2. 
   Napie | May 20, 2003 07:26pm | #2

   Nice job.  It will be worth all the work mounting it.  I aquired a Yost "turtle-back" about 7 years ago, (for $50.00, no less). It replaced the Record on the bench and has been a real asset. The tapering feature of the jaws gets a lot of use.

3. 
   ChasStanford | May 20, 2003 07:28pm | #3

   Nice looking, sturdy bench too.  What are its dimensions?

1. 
   AlanTurner | May 21, 2003 04:14pm | #7

   Thanks for the compliment.  The bench size is 6 ft by 26 5/8" wide, overall, with about 19 1/2 solid, and the rest the tool tray.  34" tall, including the rubber feet.  I posted it in Feb under, I think, "just another workbench."  In the gallery, I think.  Please note that I did use power tools in its construction; sorry about that.  I wold have loved an 8 or 10 ft bench, and would have been glad to make it that size, but my shop wouldn't hold it.

1. 
   ChasStanford | May 21, 2003 06:44pm | #8

   Hell, don't apologize.  Power tools are about the only way around the "I need a bench to build a bench" problem.  It would be damned hard to hand plane and joint (with hand tools) all the lumber needed for a bench without having a bench in the first place.

   About the only way I can think of would be to throw some plywood on a set of saw horses and mount a temporary vise or something along those lines.

1. 
   AlanTurner | May 21, 2003 07:49pm | #9

   Truth be known, I apologized sort of tongue in cheek, knowing your aversion to power tools.  I enjoy both hand and power tools; whatever is most efficient.  Hand tool usage is more satisfying, but frequently inefficient, at least for me.  The bench has improved my hand tool usage immeasurably.  And, the Emmert probably won't hurt either.  Still, I wouldn't want to four square  12/4 hard maple unless I didn't want a bench in my lifetime.  And, the grain in theese planks was occassionally a bit squirley (sp?).  A 12" jointer, and a 20" planer let me do the job pretty quickly.  Note that the widest dimension is 19 1/2 or so on the solid part of the bench top.  But, that said, I find the narrower bench more useful since I can comfortably work from both sides. 

1. 
   ChasStanford | May 25, 2003 02:50am | #20

   Of course the bench designs that we all copy were well established way, way before electricity.

4. 
   JsHerbel | May 20, 2003 09:38pm | #4

   The Emmert patternmaker's vice is about the most functional, multi-functional tool I can think of, not just gadgety. I use my Emmert in all of it's umpteen different holding positions regularly. I have gotten in to a routine of moving the vice around with little thought and it has become a part of my way of working that is just second nature. I would hate to have to go back to contorting my body or trying to come up with screwy ways of holding my work in the position that I want.

   It seems like I pinched my fingers alot when I was learning to use the vice and when you're dealing with something that is probably in the neighborhood of 50 lbs., I suspect it could cause a serious injury when you get to twirling it around.

5. 
   Andrew | May 20, 2003 09:47pm | #5

   You're a lucky man. I hope to find either an emmert or an Oliver #1 pattern makers vice one day. Right now the only ones I've seen have been priced way beyond what I want to spend. If you don't mind sharing, how much did the vice set you back?

1. 
   AlanTurner | May 21, 2003 04:11pm | #6

   The vise was $175, and included the original 2d jaw.  I thought it was clean, but turns out it was slightly broken.  My son, a great welder, brazed it, and I expect no trouble.  I think the patternmakers were hard on them; I will be less so I am sure.  What's a hammer?

6. 
   Trees2dust | May 23, 2003 01:06am | #10

   Hi Alan,

   You scored!  I paid more than that for the Emmert copy from Japan Woodworker.  Actually the copy looks fairly well made, but I would rather have the original any day, even if it has a repair. 

   My problem is I can't get myself to cut into my bench to install it.  My bench top is similar to yours, 2 1/2" thick maple with 4 1/2" thick skirts and breadboard ends.  So much wood has to be removed to make clearance for the vise screw housing and mounting plate that I'm afraid it would weaken the top.  So I keep delaying the front vise installation and have been using my bench with just a twin-screw end vise.  I believe your Emmert installation is similar.  What's your feeling regarding weakening of the bench top?

   Rick

1. 
   AlanTurner | May 23, 2003 01:42am | #11

   Rick,

   I took a chance.  I wasn't worried about the relief for the screw housing, and if you have  a copy of a No. 1, it will be even less of a problem.  I think I had 1 5/8" left above the screw housing, and on a No. 1 it would be more.  My concern was the removal of the stock for the hub.  The bench top gets pretty thin right there.  Mine goes back 5 3/4" for the hub, including insetting the rear jaw vise, and I think the No. 1 may be deeper.  Some let the rear jaw extend out from the front, and do not inset it.  I did so because I didn't want to give up the implied floor space.  Smallish basement shop. 

   That, and the closeness of the hub to the end, were bothersome.  One of my end cap bolts is out, and awaiting a welding tab for the nut.  But, on the other hand, the value of the end cap is the tenon that hopefully helps keep the top flat, and I am away from the tenon a good 1.5" or so.  It wouldn't have been so bad except that I wanted the vise jaws exactly at the end of the vise, plus because of the smallish size of the bench, the legs are such that I couldn't have moved it too far anyway.  I have seem many (in photos only) mounted mid-board, perhaps for that reason.  I don't think I will do heavy chisel pounding on that portion of the bench, but that should be no problem.

   Sounds like you use your twin screw as a tail vise.  Mine has a more traditional tail vise.  Are you thinking of mounting it on the end, and using the dogs of the vise like traditional dogs?  I am not sure that I would cut into the end cap to mount it.  On the other hand, an end cap can be remade pretty easily if it doesn't suit you.  My bench is 2 7/8" thick throughout its full width.

   Bottom line for me was that aI really wanted an Emmert, and decided that if the mounting did not go well, aI was prepared to rip off the front of the bench and rebuild it.  It is a tool, not a living room piece.  Hell, I chop into it with a chisel occasionally, doing dovetails and such, and it doesn't bother me.  Pencil line, and occassional knife lines, are there also.  If this bothered me, I would have put MDF on it, which was not a consideration.

   Good luck, if you decide to dive in.  I will say that it did take me a lot of thinking time to make sure that I was getting it marked and cut correctly the first time.

1. 
   Trees2dust | May 23, 2003 07:47pm | #15

   s4s,

   Thanks for the detailed response.  The top would have to be reduced to 1 5/8 thickness to make clearance for the screw housing as I recall from the instructions.  I have seen photos of benches with the inset for the rear jaw that you mentioned, and I have decided I won't be doing that and just live with the vise sticking out.  I may regret it every time I bump my hip on the vise, though, but at least I can always inset it later if needed. 

   I will be mounting the Emmert copy as a front vise, in the same general location as you have yours.  And yes, I use the twin-screw as a tail vise.  It works well for that, but then I have never used a trad tail vise before.  This is my first tail vise ever, (actually my first real bench ever) and it sure is nice when used with the dogs for planing and such. 

   I planned the bench around the Emmert copy, to make sure the dog holes and end cap bolts didn't interfere.  Now it's time to take saw and chisel and hog out some wood for the vise.  Thanks for the inspiration.  One more question- did you line the vise jaws with anything?

   Rick

1. 
   AlanTurner | May 23, 2003 08:08pm | #17

   I sure tried to.  The left edge of the jaw is even with the left edge of the bench, and the top edges of the jaws are just a smidgen below the level of the bench top.  And, if I didn't note it before, after the pix were taken, I installed a sheet metal type screw into the hub housing portion of the cutout, and adjusted it so that when I return the vise jaws to vertical from a tilted position, the hub hits the protruding screw and the vise jaws are dead perpendicular to the benchtop.  I could remove it without problem, but rarely will, I think.

   I put the Emmert into the bench so that on edge planing operations of boards too wide to plane if on the benchtop, between dogs, the front of the baord could be held by the vise, and the rear supported in some fashion.  Plus, the space issue was important for me.

   My Emmert came after the bench was built - just stumbled into it - and got lucky that I didn't have major problems.  BTY, did you see that someone is selling a turleback for $1500 in the classifieds?  Wow.  I suppose that a turtleback may have antique value, but I recall that some have said that the imporved Emmerts are more reliable, or better, or something.

   For the screw housing, I used  a circular saw with a fence to establish the outside cuts, and took several inside, used a chisel to take out most of the waste, and finished with the router to clean it up.  Pretty efficient.  Did the same with the hub area, but a ton of gouging was needed.  Good mallet work workout.  Had a sweat by the end.  I didn't clean these gouge marks up, preferring the carved look, both up in the hub area, and in the areas where I had to give extra relief on the front edge to permit the jaws to rotate.  Great way to spen last Saturday.

   Good luck!

1. 
   Trees2dust | May 23, 2003 09:15pm | #18

   Alan,

   I didn't phrase my last question very well.  What I want to know is if you used anything on the faces of the vise jaws- leather, hardboard, cork, etc?

   As far as hogging out the screw housing clearance, I can probably get most of it with a router, but the 4 1/2" thick lip on the front edge of the bench will be in the way for part of the groove.  I don't mind taking the neander approach with brace and bit, chisels and mallet and a glass or two of something cold.

   When I first looked into the Emmerts, they were around $500 and up, so I settled for the copy.  Will post some pics when I get it installed.

   Rick

2. 
   AlanTurner | May 23, 2003 09:34pm | #19

   I misunderstood.  Oops.

   No, nothing yet.  What I have in mind is a piece of good leather, glued onto about 1/2" pine jaws, easily removable.  Possibly cork over pine.  MIght even round the edges of the substrate pine.  It is new to me, so Ill try whatever till I find someting I think works well.    This weekend it may get its first workout as I begin a pair of bedside tables with modified, cabriole legs.  Roughed on a bandsaw, but shaped with rasps and spokeshave.  Can't wait.

   Please post; we will be interested to see your new toy.

   Edited 5/23/2003 2:40:10 PM ET by s4s

2. 
   user-17340 | May 23, 2003 01:56pm | #12

   I'm sorry to pop up like that on that subject, but the weakness you get by removing the wood in front of the vise on your bench will be compensated (I think) by screwing the vise in place, with a big metal mounting plate exactly where your bench is weaker.

   Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Québec

1. 
   AlanTurner | May 23, 2003 03:17pm | #13

   I would be interested to see a drawing of a potential plate. I think the only place the bench is weakened is on the very left end, and only at the hub, which must left be free to turn, and in an area where the tilting bar and lock are located. On a No. 1, the centerpoint for the screw trough is 9" off the end, and the probably 2 1/2" wide trough still leaves 1 3/4" bench top thickness, clear back. I don't know the length of the No. 1's screw, but probably longer than my No. 2's by 2 or so inches. If so, the depth of the trough would be 20", assuming that the back jaw is recessed into the bench front, which I did, and would do again. This is probably a 3" difference on the No. 1. Were I a patternmaker, I might not recess it. On the benches that I saw in the patternshop where I purchased this vise, they were mounted with the back jaw protruding, but I suspect that it was the nature of pattern work which dictated this mounting choice.

1. 
   user-17340 | May 23, 2003 03:35pm | #14

   I did not express myself properly, mainly because english is my second language and I often stumble with words. By ``plate``, I meant the mounting plate of the vise, the one that you screw by the top of the bench. The location where you screw it is the weakest point of your bench, because you had to make place for the hub. But I think that by adding the vise, you reinforced the weakest point.

   I hope I made that clear this time, sorry for the inconvinience.

   Bob in Sherbrooke, Province of Québec

2. 
   Trees2dust | May 23, 2003 07:55pm | #16

   Bob,

   You may be right about the mounting plate compensating somewhat for the weakness.  At any rate, it's not worth worrying about.  I just need to install the vise and start using it.  Thanks,

   Rick