Replies

1. 
   mudman | Jun 17, 2005 06:18am | #1

   For a shaper to be usefull or productive it needs to be at least 3 horses. If you have time look in the paper and Net for a used Delta, General, or Powermatic. You will pay 600 to 1000 bucks and probably get some cutters as well. On the new market I think that Grizzly is the best value.

   Mike

   please excuse my spelling.
2. 
   notDusty | Jun 17, 2005 07:00am | #2

                   Hi CAG ,

                                   What type of profiles and use will you be doing may determine the type machine that would be best suited for you . Buying a heavy duty machine will give you the ability now and in the future to do whatever you choose . The smaller the hp the more passes will need to be taken. You can do raised panels on a 2 hp , but as Mike said 3hp would be better. Also the spindle diameter will determine what type and the cost of the cutters you use . If you are talking commercial industrial use then a 1" + size spindle would be great , although you can use bushings to reduce say a 1 and a 1/4" cutter to use on a 1" or even a 3/4" spindle . I also would suggest a used machine , make sure the seller will demo it for you so there will be no surprises .

           good  luck                     dusty

3. 
   Adrian | Jun 17, 2005 10:08pm | #3

   I'd look for a used machine, min 3 HP, 5 is better especially if you are thinking about doors at all (I have a 5, and a 7.5 HP here at the college, and they bog down sometimes)......smaller spindles are okay and may be nice to have, but personally I would make sure it could take an 1 1/4" spindle, and had one. Shaper tooling is really expensive, and sometimes you can make an expensive mistake by buying a cutter for a smaller spindle (cuz it's cheaper)....then you find it won't do the heavier duty stuff. So I stick to 1 1/4 for everything.

   A sliding table is nice to have if it's in the budget. General makes a nice shaper (my 5 is a General); Powermatics look fine, but you don't see them around here. I have a Delta also.....normally I hate Delta tools, but this one is okay......has it's pros and cons though.

   Seriously consider budgeting for a 1 HP power feeder right from the start. This is a tool that really benefits from a feeder. When you get to buying tooling, look for insert tooling (when they get dull or you need a different profile, just change the carbide insert).....cheaper and better in the long run.

   cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
   

1. 
   philip | Jun 18, 2005 09:13am | #4

   Hello Adrian,
   Sorry but this question is little to do with the thread.
   You mention that the college shapers, even though they are 5 and 7 horse,sometimes bog down. Please tell me what work you are doing on them to result in this. Even in my days of dealing with unsophisticated operators I never came across this situation.... 7 horse power??? bog down? Even with huge slotted collars like helicopter blades, or those 300 mm combination tenon cope and stick cutters for door making , with power feeders....
   I am intrigued- are we talking of a different horse power here?
   Anyhow , referring to the original subject, I think you are advising CAG to sort of go nuclear: unless he is to go professional then I would have thought a 3 hp Delta with the 1 inch shaft would be more than adequate for most applications-them's my sentiments.

1. 
   notDusty | Jun 18, 2005 04:50pm | #5

               Hey mook ,

                             I sort of was thinking on the same lines. I read that and wondered what profiles or cutters or tasks bog down a 5-7 hp shaper . I can barely bog down my 3hp shapers and it seems a 5hp is like  twice as much power.I have even run some collars with small helicopter blades (scary) and never bogged down . The poster sounded to be more of a hobby shop woodworker than an industrial user , so to advise machines of nuclear proportions IMO seems overkill .

                                     dusty

1. 
   philip | Jun 19, 2005 01:28am | #6

   Absolutely, Dusty. I am waiting for a reply-maybe we are missing something!

2. 
   Adrian | Jun 20, 2005 03:13pm | #7

   Nuclear?....I don't think so, not by a long shot. They make them a lot bigger than I'm suggesting, with lots more bells and whistles. Also, I don't think you read my post. I said '3 hp minimum, 5 is better'. And that's true. Larger than that may indeed be overkill, but I never told him to get a 7.5.....I said I have one. And yes, even bigger shapers, and I've worked on lots, in many situations, do bog down.....not to the point of stalling, but you know they're working. If your experience with shapers is limited to a little edge-shaping and cabinet doors, maybe you won't have seen that.

   CAG said he was looking for a mid-level shaper....to me that means medium-duty; 3 is a light duty machine that has it's place, but it also has it's limitations especially if you get into serious work, and a lot of the more serious machine companies don't even offer a 3 hp machine. And 1 1/4 tooling is a better investment than smaller tools. If you have used shapers with power feeders, and without, most guys I know very quickly come to consider them a necessary accessory, just like good dust collection.

   I know CAG, I know he's in the trades, not a hobbyist, and who knows what he's going to get into. Used 5 hp machines are very easy to find, and very cheap.....much less than a new 3 hp. Used 3 hp machines are a dime a dozen anywhere I've lived; people are either scared of them because they don't know how to use them, or they get sold off to step up to a larger machine.

   Anyway, I know if I was looking for one shaper, that can pretty much do everything I expect a shaper to do, I'd look for a 5 hp. If you guys choose to think that's 'nuclear', fine by me.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

1. 
   philip | Jun 21, 2005 05:28am | #8

   Adrian,
   I am not the only one to think that the original poster is in the hobby category. I wish people would put in more detail about themselves....
   Anyway to me shapers up to about 2bhp rank as "small", 3hp are mediumand 5hp and more are industrial and heavy duty. In all cases I am talking of "proper" horse power and not router type non sustainable type ratings, and 3 phase.
   I still maintain that a 3hp with either a 1 inch shaft or a 11/4 is middle of the road, and will not cost him extra in terms of heavy tooling and the electrical complications that may come in with the bigger horse power stuff.
   I have an old Delta with 2hp and inter change shafts 1" and 3/4". Also a 3hp with sliding table. Both 3 phase and have not found them to be too small -from moulded panel house doors to any other furniture application.
   I still want to know what application is going to cause a 5 or 7 hp to even think of slowing down (unless the belt(s) is not happy)

1. 
   Adrian | Jun 21, 2005 03:01pm | #13

   My belts are fine. To me, heavy duty shapers are the 10-15Hp machines (or larger).....lots and lots of them out there.

   Specific applications? Panel raising in dense hardwoods and some composites......full size door joinery in hardwoods.....handrailing.....big rebates etc. with a lot of material being removed.....big and deep moulding profiles. As far as I'm concerned, a shaper should be capable of doing all that, in most cases, in one pass. And with a power feeder, which I think should be used most of the time, you will hear the machine bog down sometimes, depending on the application.

   Now, you and Jellyrug are getting pretty aggressive in asking me to make my case, and I'm getting a little fed up......I'm basing my opinions on my own experience as a professional cabinetmaker with a decent background in millwork, and what I see in the plants I visit. One of the good things about my job is that I get to visit a lot of plants, all across the country ......everything from one person shops to 2000+ employee manufacturing plants. I would never describe myself as a shaper 'expert', but I've put in my time on them, and I see and have seen them in use a lot. I'm sticking with my opinion (and it is just my opinion).....3 hp is the minimum, and it's a light duty machine. I would buy a 5 hp.

   I appreciate that you have detailed the machines you have, and your good experience with them......glad they do what you need them to do. Here's a question for you: do you have experience on larger machines, to know what they are or are not capable of?cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

2. 
   Jellyrug | Jun 21, 2005 07:01pm | #15

   "I appreciate that you have detailed the machines you have, and your good experience with them......glad they do what you need them to do. Here's a question for you: do you have experience on larger machines, to know what they are or are not capable of?"

   Adrian,

   Apologies for offending you, there is a definite application for 10Hp tilting spindle shapers with sliding tables, it all depends on the type and volume of work.

   The problem with these larger machines, is the cost of tooling. One can spend more on a molding head, with one single set of cutters, than the cost of a complete "light duty" 3hp machine with a molding head and a complete set of cutters. A 3hp machine will handle all the standard cutters, you can buy of the shelf, granted which limits the application. With a smaller molding head, custom grinding is also an option. To fully use the capacity on larger machines, is a game of custom cutters, power feeds and big $$$$.

   I can't imagine that one would need more than 3hp at a woodworking college?

3. 
   Adrian | Jun 22, 2005 07:27pm | #17

   "I can't imagine that one would need more than 3hp at a woodworking college?"

   I teach industrial woodworking, not small-shop furnituremaking, though some of my students may do that. I actually need larger machines than I have, and am adding them as I can....one will be a 10hp+ shaper, but just to repeat, that's not what I recommended to CAG. We don't have much call for a 3 hp.

   I'm also signing off this thread, and apologise for my part in any uncivility. I guess none of us have any intention of changing our opinions.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

4. 
   Adrian | Jun 22, 2005 09:00pm | #18

   Gentlemen;

   Here's a link to a thread on another forum.....not trying to make any particular point here or grinding an axe, but I just happened on it , it relates to this discussion and you may find it interesting.

   http://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/forums/swmf.pl?read=413347cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

5. 
   Jellyrug | Jun 22, 2005 09:04pm | #19

   Just curious,

   Where do you teach and what courses do they offer?

6. 
   Adrian | Jun 23, 2005 02:25pm | #22

   I teach for the Nova Scotia Community College....I teach the two-year diploma wood manufacturing program.....not a big program, but we are growing and I think we do a pretty good job. Geared towards production woodworking, but we cover a wide spectrum. I teach basically everything, from drafting, CAD, CAM, design, machining, cabinetmaking/woodworking theory, tooling, production management, to finishing. Best job in the whole world.cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, N.S

7. 
   philip | Jun 21, 2005 10:59pm | #16

   Adrian,
   Referring to the original post, I feel I have answered the question helpfully.
   I have had experience with very heavy duty shapers and British and French 4 and 6 head moulders.
   I am signing off this thread now as it is not going in a useful direction.

2. 
   Jellyrug | Jun 21, 2005 07:42am | #10

   Adrian,

   Still waiting for a proper explanation on exactly how you bog down a 5 or 7.5 HP shaper? Unless you are in a semi automatic, multi spindle, industrial mass production environment, a specific example will be interesting.

   I'm not sure where you are, but the standards used for shaper cutters in Europe and the liability scare here in the US, results in very limited capacity on simple manually operated shapers. (Spindle molders in Europe). If you start looking at 8" diameter cutter heads, with auto feed, perhaps I can understand, but you are talking about a school?

4. 
   JeffHeath | Jun 21, 2005 06:46am | #9

   CAG

   I have a 4 hp SCMI that has been able to do everything I've asked it too with no problem.  I use it mostly for raising panels, which is the largest requirement of hp you'll run into, and have had great results with a new, sharp cutter.

   Jeff

1. 
   philip | Jun 21, 2005 09:38am | #12

   hi Jeff,
   Just as a matter of interest on my part: your SCM-is it the minimax version or is it the Invincible?
   If it is the latter, I am familiar with them. In Zimbabwe it was well respected as Industrial Iron as good as any British like Wadkin or Robinson (read Oliver , Yates for American comparison I guess)

1. 
   JeffHeath | Jun 21, 2005 05:01pm | #14

   It is the Minimax version, with the sliding table.  I almost bought an Oliver 287, but couldn't justify the cost in my mind.  I picked the Minimax up for $1400 US, including 29 different cutters, including C & S, and 3 different raised panel cutters, and a complete door set.  The price of the cutters alone was over 2000, and half of them were still new.

   Jeff

5. 
   notDusty | Jun 21, 2005 09:33am | #11

                         CAG ,                                                                                                 Well , long time no post , it   seems a few of us have responded to your post . As one can read we are concerned as to your needs . There have been several opinions and much wisdom extended to you from all of the posters . Part of the beauty of woodworking is certainly the fact that many roads and paths  can be taken to accomplish the results we desire .

                         To ALL ,

                                  Perhaps we should debate or chat about something more important ?

                                                       regards          dusty

                                  

6. 
   FitandCut | Jun 23, 2005 06:24am | #20

   I have a 2hp Shop Fox shaper purchased from Grizzly by my wife for a Christmas present.  So far all I have done on it could have been done on a router table, but I like the shaper much better.  Slower turning cutter & very clean cuts.  I don't have a stock feeder, but all those post that recommend one are probably right.  This thing is scarry to use.  Bought the Amana cutter head with the interchangeable steel cutters.  It works fine and the cutters are only about $15 per set.  I also have a few carbide cutters, none of them panel raising size.  Just bought a 3/8" bull nose cutter from Infinity that works like a charm and only cost about $30.  You will definitely need dust removal.  The thing blows chips back at you without it.  One problem- the fence must be shimmed to be true and an accurate fence is an absolute must.  I was never able to shim it well enough so I made new polyethylene fences and countersunk the screws enough that I could run it over my 6" jointer to true it.  This works very well.  Both fence sides have parallel faces.  Seems like to me it should have been machined better, but the owner's manual states that shimming is normal.  I have already wished that I had a machine which would swing a slightly larger cutter so that I could take a full 2" deep cut . . .with a custom cutter which would cost way too much even if I could use it.

1. 
   notDusty | Jun 23, 2005 07:51am | #21

                    Fitandcut ,

                               To use a larger diameter cutter you can make an auxiliary table top with a larger hole to accommodate the desired cutters. I made one for and old Delta out of 1/2" Melamine , and use a few small C clamps on the very back to hold it down. Along with my fences that are made to clamp down the top is secure .

                         perhaps this can help that particular quandary

                                                      dusty