Replies

1. 
   user-64052 | Sep 12, 2010 02:02am | #1

   he uses it because he doesn'thave the confidence in his own work or isn't bright  enough to do it properly

   ron

1. 
   geppetto425 | Oct 02, 2010 10:10am | #15

   Huh?

   Thanks for insulting my friend who you know nothing about. He is very bright and has the upmost confidence in his work or he wouldn't guarantee it. In fact the Smithsonian often consults HIM about restoration questions.

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Sep 12, 2010 08:48am | #2

   If by "antiques" you mean old

   If by "antiques" you mean old factory made furniture that needs to be useful for 10 more years before it goes to the dump, well OK I guess, as long as he, and you, are knowlegeable enough to be sure that is what it is. 

   But, if you mean the handmade pieces "of the period" whose preservation is not just of keeping it functional, but preserving a heritage of craft and society then that is pretty much sacriledge, because such repairs are shortening its life by making future repairs more difficult and requiring more drastic measures. Repairs to such pieces must be sensitive to the original construction and reversible.  In my mind epoxy to fill loosened joints is akin to screwing on angle irons.   

3. 
   hammer1 | Sep 12, 2010 09:16am | #3

   Its extremely rare for the majority of us to come into contact with a true and valuable antique. For the most part, its just old furniture. Epoxy is reversible just like hyde glue, if fact, most woodworking glues are reversible. I'm not sure why folks think that we will have to take things apart, we're usually trying to keep things together. If someone has repaired an antique and its working, why do we care how it was fixed? Its a better fix than what we often see, a nail.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Sep 12, 2010 12:22pm | #7

   Epoxy may be reversible, but not "just like hyde glue".  It generally takes quite a bit higher temperatures than hide glue. 

   Yes, we try to keep things together, but over years, stuff happens and to repair that next thing that was damaged may be dramatically facilitated by undoing other joints.  So it isn't unusual to have to loosen joints.  This is particularly true of chairs, where there are only two kinds of chairs, those that need repair, and those that will need repair.  So even if we are just speaking of old furniture that we would like to live with for a long time, not museum quality pieces, there is still merit it doing just a bit extra to make the next repair a lot easier .  Tightening a joint with a little veneer is not really that much more of a challenge than dumping in epoxy--I can easily clean up a little mess from hide glue, but for me anyway taming the mess of epoxy is a challenge.  Epoxy "virtue" is that it is gap filling, but otherwise it doesn't make a better repair. 

2. 
   Jammersix | Sep 12, 2010 01:48pm | #8

    Epoxy is reversible just like hyde glue, if fact, most woodworking glues are reversible. 

   How does one reverse Titebond II or III?

4. 
   9619 | Sep 12, 2010 09:38am | #4

   Gepetto,

   I loved your first phrase "A restoration mentor of mine".        You are the only person I ever met who has a "restoration mentor".       What I am about to say is not in jest.

   One of the most difficult thing about learning any set of skills is determining who to believe.  I have often said this on Knots.  If you get five answers to your question, and they are  different, which one will you believe?     It is much a much more difficult problem for a newbie than for an oldbie.   I don't know you but I see that you have been in Knots for over five years, so you are not a newbie.   I see you have a great photo of yourself,   which indicates to me that you enjoy life and have a good attitude.  I can't tell whether you were serious about your question or whether you were just having a little fun and baiting the audience.  

   After a number of years on Knots, I have found a number of people who are extremely good with their answers, and are essentially never wrong.    One such person is Steve Schoene.  He is to be believed.      

   There are more than a few folks on Knots who have their heads in a dark place.  They tend to be snotty, and act like smart-*****.   You have at least one such response.   My suggestion is to make a list of these, and just ignore them.  Don't respond.  It won't help you or them.   

   I was a bit surprised by your question.  I have been fixing up old furniture (from 1840 - 1940) since 1968.   I have never really had an "antique",  that is, one of those things on Antiques Roadshow that sells for a lot of money.   Many of my restorations were of pieces that were about to be hauled to the dump because they were missing pieces, had broken pieces and were in horrendous shape.     But when I finished with them,  they were nice looking and would serve as very useful everyday pieced for members of my family for decades to come (or even longer).  

   If you are fixing up an old piece of furniture that is not of value, and you are only making a useful piece out of it,  it really doesn't matter what type of glue you use.  Just have fun.       If you are restoring a real valuable antique, one needs to move slowly, and even think of having it done by someone with a good deal of experience on such things.

   BUT, the thing that surprises me about your question is that all of the reading I have ever done about restoring antiques is in full agreement that "first of all, do no harm".    You only use glues that are reversible -  eg hide glue.     

   I always recommend doing research in the literature before asking a question on Knots, because you have to have information in order to evaluate other information.  If you have done any reading on restoring old furniture, I believe you would have asked your mentor why he is going against all of the literature and using System 3.

   I believe you will be better off going to the library and reading the literature on antique restoration than asking such questions here.      

   I hope this helps.  If you were just having fun with your question, you asked a good one.  

   Have fun.

   Mel

1. 
   RalphBarker | Sep 12, 2010 10:31am | #5

   "The Literature"

   On many subjects, I would submit that "The Literature" is no less opinionated than posts on Knots. Thus, one must still sift through the (printed) opinions in the search for "truth".

2. 
   WillGeorge | Sep 12, 2010 10:46am | #6

   There are more than a few folks on Knots who have their heads in a dark place..

   Does this include me? I as often as possible go out at night and look at the stars..... OK.. If it's not really cold outside. I know, the best viewing, on a cold clear night....

   ..... But when I finished with them,  they were nice looking and would serve as very useful everyday pieced for members of my family ...      ....for decades to come (or even longer)... ??? You never had my children (when little) in your house.. Maybe last the first hour of play? But then again my wife and I let the children roller-skate down the long hallway. We were probably not the best parents on earth, but we liked our children to play at home and not out in the streets if possible. That is not to say we never let them go outside. They grew up knowing to respect other folks property... We never had anything the valueable that they could get near.. The good stuff we just wished we had...

   I do question your comment... "I believe you will be better off going to the library and reading the literature on antique restoration than asking such questions here."

   I would suggest a statement something like...  I believe you will be better off going to the library and reading the literature on antique restoration and THEN asking such questions here.  You would be better informed on what the folks inside of Knots are trying to tell you... Good and bad.

   And I saw a comment about something like.. Using "angle iron" in this subject post.. I have used angle iron inside of wood for 'very' strong book shelves and desk tops. Mostly for my son-in-law who has about as many books as our local Library! He is a Doctor of something about early child studies. Is that Ed.D. ? Not sure.. I wonderful but strict father.. Gee.. they are just baby girls! Lighten up sir! No, I never interfere with his judgements at his house... I have very different ideas while I babysit them.. I look forward to babysitting my 'girls'.. The Dr. never tells me what I have to do.. I guess the little ladies get a mix of what is correct and wrong from different views of what the rules really are.

   I now wonder about using epoxy or about using ANY modern glue now... Can I repair old wood with replacement wood in joints that is not from 'old growth trees'? Will I go to woodworkers hell?

   Mel..

   By the way I have a new grandson.. He was born July 26, 2010. His father is Italian so he ended up with this name he has to live with all his life.. I cannot remember all the fist fights I had over the my name of Wilbert from kids making fun of it..

   His Name is Gabriel Chase .. I will leave out the last name to protect the family from the local nutcakes..

   He looks like a Angel, so I think his name is fitting for him. My daughter was in very long labor as the same for her first baby girl.. I wonder why women put up with this?

    

5. 
   joinerswork | Sep 12, 2010 02:34pm | #9

   gepetto,

   Some random thoughts on restoration, repairs, antiques, and epoxy.

   Epoxy rather than hide glue for "regluing":

   If by regluing, you mean gluing again, as in joints that have failed ot loosened, I'd recommend against epoxy.  The old glue must be cleaned completely from the joint's surfaces, else you are putting the epoxy onto old glue, not wood, and the old glue has already proved it is not adequate for the job.  If the old glue is hide glue, ( likely if the piece was built prior to WWII or thereabouts)new hide glue redissolves and activates the old, negating the need to clean all the old off the joint. , unless the joint failed due to poor fitting originally, warping, or splitting- in which case further work is needed anyway.  If the joint failed because it is the weak point in the design, consider that it may be better to reglue, over and over again a joint, that if strengthened might cause a break , more difficult to repair, in another area of the piece.

   If by regluing, you mean the repair of an old repair that has failed, then epoxy may be justified, under some circumstances.  If indeed the old repair was properly done (how can you tell?)- that is there is no evidence of (1) beads of  glue bridging an open joint or (2) two or more types of glue present in the break- and the old repairs have failed repeatedly,, and the piece will be seeing hard service (daily use), then PERHAPS using epoxy may be justified.  If the piece has real antique value, that is, it is an artifact of a famous owner, a famous maker or manufaturer, or of a bygone technique, technology, or way of life, it should be pointed out to the owner that an epoxy repair may return the piece to daily use at the expense of its long term antique value, and the owner should decide on the course of treatment.  

   Sometimes, an epoxy repair, along with a metal rod or other inlay, is a practical means to return a piece to service when replacement of the broken part is impractical due to expense of duplicating a carved, inlaid, difficult to shape, or unusually finished or painted component.

   In my experience, a repair involving the use of epoxy is- ought to be- a last resort, taken when expense or other parameters absolutely prevent the use of other more proper methods.

   Finally, regarding the use of less than museum- grade techniques, because the piece is of little or no value:  I see in antique shops today, pieces that in the early days of my career were regarded as of little value, and were routinely knocked apart as a source of old wood to be used in repairing "real" antiques.  I'm talking about late Empire and Victorian stuff, so-scalled "cottage chests", Eastlake furniture.  Just because it is of little value today, may mean that it will be desireable in future, because so little of it survives.

   Ray

6. 
   KeithNewton | Sep 12, 2010 05:31pm | #10

   I have probably used more than 100 gallons of epoxy.

   I am just guessing that it may be new to you. 

   While epoxy will thicken when cooled, it will not set without warming up, so you are right back where you started when it does cool down with your method, so forget it You can cool it to extend your glue-up time, but it will not set up without heat. You can screw up badly by mixing and working in too cool an atmosphere if you are not careful. Don't ask how I know this. 

   There are plenty of good additives to thicken epoxy which actually improve its end quality, while making it easier to manage.  Straight epoxy tends to be too brittle, and can benefit from additives which can offer some flexibility and resilience. I keep colloidal silica on hand to thicken it. This is a very light powder that can be added to make it as you like without much worry. I usually add some dust from my belt-sander bag also, which colors it to match the wood I am working with. 

   Whatever brand of epoxy you choose to use will have a user manual, with lots more information than you will be able to digest at one reading. However I strongly advise you to get and read it. Most will refer to viscosity in easy terms to understand like Water > Latex paint > Catsup > Mayo > peanut butter, etc. 

   Epoxy will soften at moderately  high temperature, which makes it reversible. I can't think of a better glue for repairing sloppy joints. Anyone arguing against it probably has never bothered to learn some of the tricks of how to use it. And that is a pity. I hope your mentor has discovered the benefit of CA glue for its many uses.   

7. 
   Westchester | Sep 13, 2010 02:44pm | #11

   geppetto

   The modern products are great additions to the restorers / repair shops,  bag of tricks.  Epoxy is a good product that is a powerful adhesive when needed in the right application. 

   The simple answer is : the repair man knows when it should be used - that comes with experience. 

   Period pieces were never glued with epoxy -  and contemporary pieces today are the antiques of tomorrow -

   We should always try to preserve when repairing

   SA

8. 
   Jammersix | Sep 14, 2010 05:05pm | #12

   How much?

   How much heat to relieve Titebond II or III?

   Hair dryer heat? Heat gun heat? Propane torch heat?

   I've never heard of injecting vinegar or alcohol into a joint. But then again, I've never heard of injecting anything into a joint...

   I've been stumbling along thinking that hide glue was the only one that could be reversed easily.

   Do there remain, therefore, any advantages to using hide glue?

1. 
   DonStephan | Sep 14, 2010 08:24pm | #13

   Even if a white or yellow glue can be softened enough to take apart a joint, I am under the impression all the old white or yellow glue would still have to be removed before applying new.  Since fresh hide glue bonds well to old hide glue, that would be an advantage to using hide glue.  I'm also not sure a white or yellow glue joint can be softened as easily as a hide glue joint, but no experience.  Can anyone with experience chime in?

1. 
   Westchester | Sep 15, 2010 08:52am | #14

   Glue Removal

   Don,

   there can be abraded wood, damaged surrounding finished wood,  and change of fit in a joint when scraping off old glue - - white , yellow, epoxy -

   Also those glues won't come apart as easy as hide glue - more chance to damage woodwork

   SA

1. 
   geppetto425 | Oct 02, 2010 11:00am | #16

   Epoxy revisited

   Thanks to all who replied about my original question especially WillGeorge and the information about properly thickening epoxy. I will repair a dowel joint that is loose by wrapping some veneer around it with hide glue, let it dry and then refit it and use hide glue again. Or I will drill it out and replace with a new dowel. And I’ve had to repair some difficult breaks that leave only end grain to work with, using a metal rod and epoxy. And of course I clean out the old glue as best I can unless it is old hide glue, then I will simply reglue it with hot hide glue again. And I agree, todays furniture could become tomorrow’s antiques, but only the well built hand made pieces. And, yes if a joint breaks or needs repair, an epoxy joint is going to be a lot harder on the next woodworker to resolve.

   But sometimes I just get in a hurry, have some really crappy chairs to fix that may be worth something 700 years from now only because there won’t be any trees left. The joints are still pretty tight even after cleaning out the old glue, so why not use some epoxy? My belief is, if the chairs last another 10 or 20 years with the epoxy, why not? I’m still slightly insecure about using hide glue. I love the open working time, the fact that it’s very organic and traditional, that it won’t leave glue spots and is easy to clean up with water and is compatible with most finishes. But why does it get so brittle with time? PVA glues don’t get brittle do they? I need to do some more research on that... and I did not know that epoxy is brittle. There are hundreds of different kinds of epoxies, do some remain slightly flexible?

   I also believe all chairs made with dowel joints are doomed to fail because it is such an inferior joint. A very popular woodworking magazine featured a very nice chair plan not too long ago, but they put it together with dowels! It's gonna fall apart in 10 years!! The only way I know to improve the strength of this joint, short of maybe replacing it with floating tenons, (would it be that much harder for the factory chair makers to switch over to floating tenons?) is to use a stronger glue. (Windsor chairs are the only chair that won't fall apart, it gets stronger with age.)

   So, epoxy is a modern, very strong glue. If it was available 300 years ago, would the craftsman of the time have used it??? Maybe we are too caught up in tradition... Are there any hand made furniture craftsmen out there today who use epoxy??  "If you've always done it that way, it's probably wrong."

   Thanks again for all your input, except for that one guy...

1. 
   user-64052 | Oct 02, 2010 12:53pm | #17

   those who are insecure

   of their capibilities are the one that use expoxy

   chairs are the most used piec of furniture in the house, so therefore it is understandable that they may require repair from time to time.. it is not that a stronger adhesive is require, but the fitting of components. hide glue has good strength. easy to repair, just a little more effort and time is required, but ofr course we all want instant results

   it is like the 2 bulls standing on the top of the hill looking at all the cows down below. the young bull says to the old bull. " let's run down and get one".  The old bull replies, "no, let's just walk down and get them all"

   ron