How do you estimate the amount of time it will take you to build a project? I don’t want to bid too low of time, and too high can cost me the job. I want to have enough time to build the project so I can put in the TLC that makes the difference between a good job and an example of craftsmanship.
Ken
Edited 1/5/2003 12:02:49 AM ET by Ken
Replies
Mark up all direct materials by at least 25% to cover your time and costs in selection and collection, and a wee bit for profit. This includes timber, board materials, polish, hardware, etc..
Assume that indirect costs will come in at about 25% to 30% or more of your direct materials costs, and add 25% to this for profit. These are such things as glue, screws, sundries, abrasives, local taxes, masking tape, saw doctor charges, etc., etc..
You should be able to process 3 sheets of board material per hour, and about 15 board feet of rough sawn solid timber per hour to basic square parts. This includes an allowance for getting the stuff out, selecting, etc., and finally sweeping up, restacking and cleaning up after the job.
Charge two hours per joint, less 5% per repeat of the same joint up to a maximum of 30% discount. Almost all other processes can be safely charged at 2 hrs per operation, but carving cabrioles, and the like take longer.
Allow 1 hr., per square foot for preparing for and polishing-- don't be surprised if preparing for and actual finishing processes amount to about 30% of your total job time.
If you decide to charge $20 per hour to your customers, then bear in mind that most furniture makers with no staff have an overhead that is at least US$10 per hour for a nominal 40 hr. week. Realistically, most furniture makers in the US need to charge at least $30- $35 per hour just to hang in there.
Charge at least $150 for a local delivery, and at least $250 for anything outwith a 25 mile wide circle. If customers balk at this, you might suggest they pick it up for themselves. If the client brings the job into the workshop, do estimates for 'free'. If they ask you to go to their house to do an estimate, charge at least $150 as a call out charge--cash. If they balk at this, you don't need them as a client-- think what else they'll whinge about after you get into the job?
So a fairly simple table taking 60 hrs., at $40 per hour = $2,400, plus material and sundries at $300 plus 25%mark up = $375. Now you're at $2,775, and add your delivery charge of $150, and you're already close to $3,000, plus taxes.
I haven't made a table of any quality in maybe five or six years for less than about $3,300. Slainte.
Good information, thanks.John E. Nanasy
Thank you so much for the info, it is exactly what I am looking for. The work you do is vary impressive. are you a one man shop or a large operation? I'm a one man shop, but I have a real nice shop.
Ken
I'm a one man band, Ken. I subcontract specialist items out, e.g., architectural panel veneering jobs, and if there's a lot of carving I'd sub that out too, etc.. I'm first rate at veneering, but I reserve my skills for intricate jobs. I carve a bit, but I'm no carver, and I'd rather get turners to do turning if I can. I have a wee network of people I can call on to help out with big jobs.
I also charge for design work at 1-1/2 times my workshop rate, and I don't hand over a working drawing at the end either. They can buy it, but I don't give it. Don't forget that there are a lot of unbillable hours to running a business, such as machinery and workshop maintenance as well as bookkeeping, advertising, networking, photography, etc., so your hourly rate has to reflect this somehow.
One of the biggest battles working furniture makers face is getting potential customers to understand the true cost of the work being done. They don't question paying the plumber or car mechanic $75 an hour. Many 'potential' customers know a guy round the corner that, as a hobby, makes wonderful stuff at nights and weekends, and he'll do the "same" job for only the cost of materials and a six pack of beer. I've had that one happen to me more than once.
You have to learn how to be very hard nosed, and I can almost always tell instantly if a walk in is just wasting my time. If they're carrying a catalogue and show you a picture of what they want, that's a very bad sign, and you're almost certainly wasting your time.
That would be like someone walking into an engineering shop with a picture of any mass produced car you care to pick and asking the engineer if he could make one like that out of the sheet metal and the lumps of iron he's got lying around. Sure, a skilled enginer could probably reproduce a one-off Honda Civic, say, but the job might cost half a million dollars or more, ha, ha. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
You have to learn how to be very hard nosed, and I can almost always tell instantly if a walk in is just wasting my time. If they're carrying a catalogue and show you a picture of what they want, that's a very bad sign, and you're almost certainly wasting your time.
Ah....men.....
Richard,
Thanks for sharing very valuable information. This was clear, concise, and of tremendous value.
By the way, you do exquisite work.
John
I had no idea you had such an elaborate system, but do you actually sit down each time and mutiply the # of joints out and take the percentage, etc., or can you pretty well ball-park a number once you have a drawing?
I like a system, too, so when i do multiples i have actual times studies for every portion of the job. I've been all ready to drop an item from my repertoire, done the analysis, and found it was paying its way after all.
I have a certain amount of money i want to make per day, so i divide a custom job into what i think i can get done in a day's time: all the casework cut and joined one day, make the drawers the next, sand one day, fit/attach hardware the next, etc., then multiply by a daily rate. I have a couple small tables (different designs) coming up that will take me about a week to do, so i've ballparked a thousand dollars. But at the same time i make those for the client, i'll make clones of them, which i know from experience doing multiples will take half-again the time a one-off table would take. Therefore, i increase my profit on the clones.
That being said, i recently spent two hours at the clients' house talking over the design. I enjoy this part of the design phase--i know i shouldn't, but i can't help it--so i donate it to the cause.
Total agreement on a third of the time spent on finishing, an easily underestimated part of the project.
Richard and Colleen,
Let me also add my thanks to both of you for providing clear details on how you estimate and bill for projects, negotiate with clients, etc. Your recent posts have helped clarify and extend the information you've already provided elsewhere.
As my skills/experience have grown, people who've seen my work have begun asking me to make pieces for them -- for "real" money, even! All of which is welcome, since my ultimate (and probably foolish, some will say!) goal is to make this a full-time career. (For the time being, these early commissions are mostly helping pay for additional furnituremaking classes in subjects and skills that are best learned directly, so they're not yet landing on the "plus" side of the bottom line -- or in the bank!)
And while I have the advantage of having been a freelancer for many years, self-employed in another field -- so I know some about marketing, customer service, accounting, credibility, etc. -- my biggest challenge continues to be accurately and appropriately charging for my work at this point in my hoped-for career. Every bit of information helps, as I build up the experience necessary to do all of this successfully.
So thanks again, and here's to a good year!
DavidLook, I made a hat -- Where there never was a hat!
SG, I can 'ball-park' most jobs just from a picture, or a working drawing. I guess more than 25 years in the game has some advantages apart from horny hands, ha, ha. I've also meticulously kept accurate records of projects I've worked on going back all those years, i.e., quantity and type of materials and exact number of hours worked on a project, including my design time if I designed it. I've timed how long it takes me to make sets of drawers, hand dovetailed, machine dovetailed, nailed together, etc..
Show me a picture of a table with a solid timber top, shaped legs of some sort, and four rails, and I'll instantly tell you what it will cost within $500 to $800 to make using my normal techniques-- high quality I like to think. I don't do rough and nailed together unless I'm asked to. It doesn't really matter how small or big a table is within reason. It could be a coffee table, or a dining table for six, the work involved is not too much different.
Start adding intricate carving, fancy cabriole legs, intricate veneering, stringing, lines, etc., to the basic table, and I just keeping adding numbers to the basic charge. I used a table as an example, but it could be a bed, or cabinet, or a whole long wall or two of some sort of built-in job. Do enough of all this different jobs, and over the years you develop a nose for, and a shrewed idea how long a similar job will take.
But yes, in the background, I have a very sophisticated and detailed pricing system which I resort to from time to time. It's all lodged on my computer nowadays, and I just pull up the process, e.g., 6 M&T's entered as a line item just spits out a price, i.e., 6 joints X 2 hrs = 12 hrs less 6 X 5% discount for multiples, = 30%, or 8.5 hrs. to the nearest half hour. It doesn't show all the calculations of course, just the price. At the end I just divide my total labour charge by my hourly rate, and that tells me how long I expect to work on the job. If it 'looks' wrong (intuitively) I might make an adjustment, up or down.
Multiples of the same piece of furniture attract 5% discounts too. A pair of bedside cabinets is not 200% of the cost of making one. All the joinery and process discounts that can be used during the construction of identical parts are supplemented by a final discount.
As before for the joinery and process elements, the discount is 5% per additional 'unit' up to a maximum of 30%. So, for example, a set of eight chairs would only attract a final discount of 30%, and a set of four will get a final discount of 20%. Slainte.
Some stuff I've made.
Richard,
This has been some great information, I too am trying to figure out a way to turn my hobby into some type of business and this information is invaluable.
I checked out your web site and your work is very impressive. I also noticed that your shop is just down the road, I would love to come by and see your shop and some of your other works.
Eddy
Thanks again for the info. I printed it and I'm going to study it to see if any or all will apply to me. Once again, your work is absolutely impressive.
Ken
There's no substitute for experience...but good record keeping comes very close! I keep a spreadsheet running all the time on an old computer in the corner of the shop. Every time I complete an operation I record what I did and how much time it took to do it. At the end of the project, I compare these times with the list of standards that I use to generate an estimate and decide if my "average" times are still reasonable. If there is a big difference, I ask myself what was different about this job that made the big difference - sometimes I need to factor that into future estimates. Also, at the end of every project I add up my actual costs and actual labour and decide if the job met my expectations - if not, I need to adjust my rates for the next time.
When you first start out, there is a tendency to think that you need to land every job that you quote. If you think this way, it causes you to underprice your work.
When you first start out, there is a tendency to think that you need to land every job that you quote. If you think this way, it causes you to underprice your work.
This is exactly how i started out, landing every job bec i gave a helluva price for value. The skinny end of the wedge, it was! I'd liked to have started at the top, but my setting called for some dues-paying. Looking like Heidi didn't help much, either.
You're all welcome to study my methods of pricing to see if it has any application in your business. And if you live nearby I'm always happy to meet and chew the fat for an hour or so-- bring beer, large quantities of good dark stuff-- not Bud, but wait 'til after 4:30 pm to bring such offerings.
I think I've just been inspired to write and send off an article somewhere-- ha, ha. Slainte. Some stuff I've made.
6 M&T's entered as a line item just spits out a price
Don't you factor in the type of wood as a multiplier? A job in cherry compared to purpleheart would cost the same? On the bubinga bed i've posted, i missed the amount of time required to round over all the edges of each segment of the four fans. I'd rounded a lot of edges and worked a lot of bubinga, but i miscalculated by at least a half-day how long that process actually required. I'm not making the same mistake on the little matching table that's currently on the drawing table, though.
Also, come clean about the romance of woodworking--ever bid a job and downplay the money or put more hours into it bec you just really, really wanted to JUST DO IT? I've got clients who want a little table i've designed to feature a bronze that i won't be able not to make even if they both drop dead...Indian headdress motif, feathers of tiger maple et al. in a fanned half-circle with notched edges. Luckily, i quoted a price before i thought of all the possibilities or i'd have written them a check on the spot, or, if they balked at the amount, asked if they would let me pay in installments for the privilege.
...or p'r'aps i've had too much amaretto...
No Splintie. I don't factor in the wood type during the estimating. My pricing assumes that it's always the most difficult timber to work, and at the end, if the estimate looks a bit too much, I knock a bit off, or if it looks a bit too little, I add a bit on.
No, woodworking, at the sharp business end, is a way to earn money. Is installing or repairing air conditioning systems in a Texas roof space during August romantic in any way? (Think 125°F and 80% humidity for 8- 10 hrs.as you slog your guts out.) I don't think so. Furniture making is sometimes no more than sheer bloody hard work, and there's absolutely nothing romantic about it. Slainte.
Some stuff I've made.
Edited 1/8/2003 1:26:31 AM ET by Sgian Dubh
I suppose if i had to install HVAC i would be a lot more bloodthirsty. Talk about slog...i can certainly relate when i have seven vertical feet of cutting boards to sand and oil. I have that down to decimal points in time and pricing, both wholesale and retail, and wouldn't take a penny less.
But...but...you furniture dudes make it look so sexy!
I'm out of amaretto.
Nothing sexy about woodworking or furniture making for a living, sg. It's mostly not generously paid hard work in less than ideal working conditions, as I know you know. Slainte..
Some stuff I've made.
Hi Richard,
Beautiful stuff ... and inspiring! Yowser. :-)
I have to ask about your Coffee Table 3 ... what are double twisted dovetails (besides being sufficient inspiration for a self-directed rapid and vigorous hair-removal session)? I don't think that I have ever heard of them.
It seems like it would be the sort of thing that one would want to see a close-up of the joint on the page that showed the table (and mentions the joint).
-Peter T.
Pete, the double twisted dovetail locks in two directions at the same time, and looks like the image below.
I take your point about showing a picture of the joint next to the table, but I think it depends on who you aim your promotional literature (or website) at. In the first place I don't believe potential customers are generally much interested technical details, but I hope they are attracted by the general 'style' of work and might contact me to make a piece, or pieces.
Later, as they become more familiar with what I do, they could develop an interest in the technical nitty-gritty, but I don't push that side too hard unless they show a real interest--- well, except that with the outrageous prices I charge they do tend to realise most of my stuff isn't just nailed together!
On the other hand, you are a woodworker and the technical stuff interests you, but for obvious reasons I don't see other woodworkers as likely buyers, ha, ha. Slainte.View ImageWebsite
"Slainte" said:
<<Pete, the double twisted dovetail locks in two directions at the same time>>
Yep- just what I thought; an 'impossible' joint ... I love it! My enfeebled congnitive capabilities won't allow me to figure out how you were even able to put the joint together for glue up. Very cool. Kind of reminds me of the (double splayed) dovetails that you find in dovetailed metal planes- "How'd they do that?" (but in this case I was able to find out how it was done: peening one of the plates' dovetails to "flow" the metal/brass/bronze into the void). No- I am going to resist temptation and not ask how you did that ... I will leave that as one of the endearing mysteries of life and the universe. :-)
<<and looks like the image below.>>
Thanks, Richard, for uploading the picture ... I appreciate it.
<< I take your point about showing a picture of the joint next to the table, but I think it depends on who you aim your promotional literature (or website) at. In the first place I don't believe potential customers are generally much interested technical details, but I hope they are attracted by the general 'style' of work and might contact me to make a piece, or pieces. >>
I see your point. Yep- as interested as I may be in the "how'd he do that?" aspect, that interest is probably only as a result of my own involvement in woodworking ... as you said.
<< Later, as they become more familiar with what I do, they could develop an interest in the technical nitty-gritty, but I don't push that side too hard unless they show a real interest--- well, except that with the outrageous prices I charge they do tend to realise most of my stuff isn't just nailed together! >>
Kind of reminds me of a hidden dovetailed joint (like inside of a mitered corner) ... from the buyer's perspective- effort that isn't really appreciated because the challenge isn't sufficiently obvious.
<< On the other hand, you are a woodworker and the technical stuff interests you, but for obvious reasons I don't see other woodworkers as likely buyers. >>
I don't see why you say that ... Well, see ya later ... I am going to go out to the shop and try and copy your Table #3 [kidding]. Oh, I guess that I DO see why you say that! lol
Warmest regards, Peter T.
Ken,
With appreciation and respect for all that's been offered in this thread, I add my few cents:
I've been estimating labor for various types of construction as well as my woodworking time requirements for years now, and historically, I come pretty close. The key - break the work down into pieces that you can get a feel for, price the pieces individually, and then add them up and look at the whole. If the whole doesn't look right to you, go back to the pieces and try to figure out where you're too high or too low. I'm more reliant on the sum of the pieces, rather than my feel for the whole. For work that I'm familiar with, I need less pieces / detail. For work that is new to me or that I'm unfamiliar with, I need more detail. You'll find that you can manage your labor estiamting if you look at the detail. And yes, I do count tennons, and I count mortises, and I do count every thing that I see that will take my time for any sort of accuracy unless I have such familiarity with the work that I can "grump" the whole.
Good luck,
jdg
Baton Rouge, La.
I'm in no way a professional ww, but I always try to price the work I make anyway, just 'cuz. I always ask myself what I would charge for the learning portion of the project. If someone asks for string inlay and you haven't done that before, do you charge the time it took you to learn and equip your shop; Or do you pay for some of the learning time yourself? Obviously you couldn't charge for learning mortise and tenon joinery, or something that, as a woodworker, you are expected to know, but also, you can't afford not to charge for something that you know you will never need on another project. I guess this is fairly similar to charging for design time or not.
Tom
JDG,
Your making me want to throw in my 2 cents also. Running a woodworking buiness I know very little. Costing and setting up a new business...been there done that several times.
Sgain did a nice job of outlining the bottoms up approach to determining a price for a specific product. A top down approach is very important also, especially if your starting out. The key questions to focus on is what portion of your day is being spent on the various activities that comprise the business. Sgain went through the production aspect but then there is the marketing, business office activities, equipment maintenance, etc. that all tike time from production and all have to be covered in the hourly charge (ie burden rate). If a normal work year is 2080 hours its hard to imagine actual production time being more than 60-70% of those hours. Yet your healthcare insurance ($2.50-3.50 per hour) has to be paid. A new business needs to project out for a 12 month or more period what protion of the day , week, month how the time will be spent and the results that should be expected (eg. amount of buniess generated from marketing activities). Also, what the business will look like in a steady state operation. The difference between where you wnat to be and where you currently are can be thought as the startup capital required to be successful.
Lastly, another tool that can help is a risk analysis. In a simple form as it applies to woodworking, you break down the project inot its sub-parts and associate the risk with doing each part. if you have done the funtion many time the risk is low...a few time medium and high if never done before. The idea is reduce the high risk (mitigate) activities with increased thought so that your project comes out on time and on budget.
There is a lot more to all of this but maybe a thumbnail sketch will help someone.
BG,
Thanks for your 2 cents worth. Your suggestions also will be very helpful.
Ken
jdig,
Thank you for the info, it will be very helpful. I can see I will have to organize and go into deep thought to figure all the suggestions everybody made.
Thanks again and happy woodworking.
Ken
Yep, you Gentelman are certainly correct. I found myself with a severance check a year ago and decided to make furniture building my career. Well, after seeing the reality of a one man shop, the amount of time involved in just getting the jobs and then dealing with clients,whew!!!!!!!!! I've decided to make furniture building a part-time job. The cost of insurance alone is devistating!!
It can be done but, you may want to have a second source of income for those long winters :)
That's exactly how to do it..
This a bit tongue in cheek, but if you have the bad habit of shooting from the hip with estimates, stop one moment, take the estimate you would have given, double it and add 10% and you'll probably be a lot closer to a price that will actually make you a living. I ran into this rule-of thumb years ago and it seems to be surprisingly accurate.
Not discussed here, so far, is the need to be halfway efficient at what you do. Most professional cabinetmakers who are making a good living at their craft can turn out beautiful work at pace that most non-professionals find intimidating and/or amazing.
John W.
Edited 6/30/2003 10:47:17 AM ET by JohnW
Edited 6/30/2003 5:55:20 PM ET by JohnW
here in spain madrid 1 hour is24 euro without tax [16]
Years ago a woodworker friend told me to always use the pi factor. You know, multiply your original time estimate by 3.14.
It's actually quite accurate.
Steve
An architect friend said 3x--pi is easier to remember :-)
However, and excuse me for butting in, this topic is really good for any type of business and tho' I normally hang out in CT, the Threads people were talking similarly.
Good bookkeeping will help you track where your expenses really are, and which items you can afford to pad/mark up for potential gliches, based on retail v. your cost, etc. Put all data into a spreadsheet/database and sort like crazy to see trends--most expensive, most frequently purchased, companies offering discounts for bulk, customers who like your fave wood/style/object/etc., any old thing.
Frankly, if you've been in business over a year, pad by pi, and are doing well, why not just price it right to begin with?
The main prob tile contractor Bro gets into is homeowner adjustments that they want for free. A contract can help avoid this dilemma, and written change orders.
BTW, everyone here does beautiful work. I don't have time to see all the photos, but you are certainly exemplary of FW, as are the other pros (and gonnabe pros) in the other forums.
How many times have you been in your shop at 3:00 am muttering to yourself things like: "I can't beleive I quoted this job so low, what was I thinking?" or "Next time I'll finally get the estimate right."
I've been pro for about two years now, I'm getting better, but I still don't think I estimate well. I've doubled my price since I began, and I'm getting ready to double it again, (I'd like to think that the quality of my work has kept pace)
One big problem for me is that I have a lot of repeat customers, It's really hard for me to say to one of them, well I know that this project is about the same as the last one I did for you, but it's going to cost twice as much.
Another big problem, (or quality, if your one of my clients) is that I will never increase an estimate. If I get half way finished and realize that I completly misjudged the time, I'll just bite the bullet and get it done.
And finally I cannot work below my ablity. If a client says, well this project doesn't have to be that high quality, it's just for utility, I can't help but make it at the best of my ablity. (unfortunatly I seem to be able to estimate at utility quality)
Anyway, these are just some pitfalls to avoid.
Cheers. Justus Koshiol
Running Pug Construction
If you don't have any competing projects to evaluate then don't worry about it. When my business was slow I would routinely take a month to finish a piece that I could have otherwise done in two weeks (or thereabouts) had I had another job waiting behind it. I don't get off on sixty hour weeks by the way.
Business suicide is probably the first thing that comes to mind, right? Well, it's not. If I've got $3,000 to $5,000 profit in a job when considering only quantifiable raw material cost then what the heck - that's not a bad month's profit - especially for a custom woodworker. If that's the worst it gets, then you'll be fine.
My overhead - rent and utils are low - I could work out of my home workshop if necessary. I disregard tool cost as a factor in overhead. I use only handtools. They'll all last at least my lifetime. If I divided their cost over their estimated useful life (or the years until I 'retire') to obtain a monthly depreciation rate to add to shop overhead the number would be completely insignificant.
I can't remember the last time I sold something for less than $3,500 or so. Therefore, I consider finishing supplies and incidentals to be completely insignificant. I might use 50 bucks worth of varnish on a decent sized piece. And that's a stretch. Fifty bucks isn't much on a $6,000 ++ commission. I don't use sandpaper so no cost there for me. The only thing I send out for sharpening these days are handsaws and that costs me less than $100 a year. Totally not worth considering.
Moral of the story - simplify your operation as much as you can. Personally, I stay away from high-volume woodworking like bookcases and bulk cabinetry made with lots of sheet goods - too much like manufacturing and too damn many people building that kind of stuff. I don't do built-ins. They were profit killers for me early on. I deliver my pieces when it's a local commission. I've landed more than one commission as I stood there in the customer's home admiring the piece I just delivered while suggesting that a "so-and-so surely would look good over in that corner." Take a client to lunch. Make the delivery an event. Live life, enjoy life.
Being in a hurry, sweating the clock, and producing an inferior product is IMMEASURABLY worse than being a little slow. Custom furniture is supposed to be exquisite, leaving little if anything to be desired.
Wanna watch your business dry up and develop a ho-hum reputation? If so, then install a full-blown cost accounting system and attempt to run your business like a furniture factory instead of an artistic and aesthetic endeavour. You can't 'out factory' the real furniture factories. Don't try.
You'll develop a feel for how long a piece takes to build. I'd personally go nuts keeping detailed time sheets, pricing by the joint, etc. etc.
My two-cents worth.....
Edited 8/3/2003 7:52:54 PM ET by CHASSTANFORD
Thank you for your input. A lot what you say I am in complete agreement with a lot of what you say. My business is kind of in operation. I'm still trying to figure out exactly what I want to do with it.Thanks again.
Ken
I appreciate those words Ken.
I like your attitude. Nice to hear from some one who enjoys what he is doing.
If you dont keep the customers coming through the door and excited you won't have to keep track of the extraneous stuff. Well said ! Validation is a good thing.
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