Hi Folks,
Another bit of bad news has come to my area recently with the announced closing of the original furniture factory in Beecher Falls, VT. More than 200 workers will be out of jobs and while this may not seem that earth shattering it is downright devastating here. I live just 14 miles from it.
They will be continuing the rough mill and kiln operations in support of the Orleans, VT factory but will employ less than 100 workers.
The Beecher Falls facility began making furniture in 1895 and in 1936 was purchased by Theodore Baumritter and Nathan Ancell who named it after Vermont Revolutionary War leader Ethan Allen.
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 6/27/2009 7:58 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Replies
Too bad, but not surprising.
American workers seem to want too much, like decent wages, safe working conditions, vacations, healthcare and pensions. They don't realize that every dollar they are given is taken from the pocket of the CEO. How do they expect that poor man to hold up his head at the country club if he's only made $50 million last year?
American workers need to be less selfish and learn from Mexican and Chinese workers. Work 12 to 14 hours a day, seven days a week. Keep your mouth shut and your production up. And be happy with a bowl of gruel and fifty cents a day.
(Before anyone flames me - the above is sarcasm.)
Remember this the next time you shop at Wal-Mart - The home of no quality cheap Chinese junk.
Farooq Kathwari, Chairman and CEO of Ethan Allen owned 13.5% of the common stock, and was paid cash compensation of $1.12 million, and total compensation of $2.04 according to the most recent DEF 14A as of Oct. 2008. The company is profitable, though as one might expect profits have declined as revenue has declined since it peaked in 2006.
Sarcasm or not, I do think we need to realize that we are in direct competition with foreign workers within the global marketplace. "American-made quality" only works if domestic workers are allowed to care more about quality than productivity. But, that gets in the way of competitive pricing (demanded by consumers) and profits (demanded by stock holders). Add comparatively high wages and benefits (demanded by domestic workers and unions) to the mix and the obvious results - more off-shore manufacturing.
Ralph,
That's as concise a global free enterprise economics lesson I've ever read. Nailed it!
It's not the fault of the American workers.. it's the faught of the owners who have simply failed to keep pace with modern equipment and techniques.. Far too much hand work involved in our factories flow is poor to impossible and machinery is either antiquated or obsolete..
I'm not sure there is a single scape goat here. Seems to me there is plenty of blame to go around, if one wishes to play the blame game. Owners (actually corporate execs), Union bosses driving worker demands, Wall Street pundits driving stockholder expectations (the real owners), and government policy (driven by politicians coveting votes), and consumers have all played a role. Just for grins, let's assume that EA had spent $50 million to upgrade the machinery in their plant, making it more like the highly-efficient Chinese factory example you presented. Of EA's 200 workers, only 193 would be laid off, leaving 7 to run the automated machines (following the Chinese factory example). From an accounting perspective, however, EA would be trading labor costs for equipment amortization. That might actually make sense for the company, profit-wise, but the 193 workers would still be out of a job. I suspect, however, that their union contract would come into play, and might prevent such a decision. On a global scale, the shift in manufacturing jobs certainly benefits the folks in low-wage countries. But, that benefit comes at the expense of workers in high-wage countries, and assumes the availability of uninterrupted transport of materials and finished goods. What happens when oil returns to $200/barrel, or goes to $1,000 per barrel when supplies are nearly exhausted? We'll have to tear up all those WalMart parking lots and turn them back into farm land for food, and teach computer programmers how to make socks and underwear. The WalMart stores will close, since there will be no more Chinese-made goods for them to sell, and the minimum-wage, no-benefit WalMart employees will be out of a job, too, not to mention the sock and skivvy makers in Honduras and Nicaragua. On the bright side, however, we might, at that point, be able to buy fine tools from Lie Nielsen at fire-sale prices. ;-)
I'm from British Columbia,when I was young the Lumber Mills were the number one employer in the province. The mills that used to take thousands of people to run, can now be run be a hundred or so highly skilled workers.
Taigert.
Interesting, indeed. I suppose one of the questions we are dealing with in the global economy is how much education and training is required for the "highly-skilled" work in an automated operation? Is a four-year degree required? Or, does it really only take a couple of months of training on the specific machines? If the answer is closer to the latter, then any reasonably intelligent person anywhere in the world could actually do the job.
then any reasonably intelligent person anywhere in the world could actually do the job. ??
Hardly.. I am skilled with my hands but could NEVER be a Banker or an Artist or do Quantum Mechanics!!
I think we all live in our little worlds and we make things in the shop that other folks like! Like that think like me..
OK so maybe Mel can do Quatum Mechanics!
Will,I could be a banker in a New York Minute. You give me all your money to hold and I'll give you back half.OK, if your going to be that way, I'll also thrown a toaster, the White Album and 1/10th of the interest I made on your money too!!!(but I'll keep the fees I made on selling your mortgage)If there is a problem, talk to the Hand (atm machine) as I will no longer be accessible in person or on a land line....
Cuts into the overhead and bonus ya know!It's a no brainer :>Boiler)
Ralph sadly America is quickly losing it's last stronghold.. a superior education..
We've been at or near the bottom of the worlds education for over three decades. Now our leadership in Colleges is being challenged by other nations..
India and China have many times more scientists and engineers than America does and they are graduating from colleges in their own countrys.
I'd like to take the freedom to differentiate your statement a bit:
At the third-tier level and below you are certainly correct; at the top of the crop, no doubt, we still have the best Universities. However, most of the folks who populate our Institutes of Higher Learning (in numbers: 95+ % of the graduate students in Engineering departments), were not born in this country.
Statistically speaking (as in: our goal is to attract the smartest brightest from around the world) that is a good thing, strategically speaking this my or may not be a problem.
Chris
Harvard's business school is still considered the cream de La cream of colleges. Mostly for the contacts you make and the prestige but don't forget they produced many of those responsible for the draining of America's economy. Yes some of the Ivy League school and top schools like MIT etc.. are world class..
However it doesn't require graduation from those schools to create and invent a new mouse trap. It does however require great skill and knowledge to create new micro or nano technology.. India and China both have good colleges for those subjects as well as engineering etc.. required to build the great buildings and bridges we'll need. Since they graduate a 1000 for every one we graduate in those subjects we will quickly lose our edge on even creativeity..
All,
I have enjoyed reading this thread. It reminds me of the old joke about the Martians who landed on the roof of Yankee stadium and who tried to figure out the rules of baseball by listening to the roar of the crowd. Scanning the responses, there were a few which stood out in my mind. The difficult thing in a complex situation, is to figure out which aspects of the situation are the important ones. I believe that joelm hit it on the head. EA was a very good company, a trend setter, when I was in high school. Since then, for whatever reasons, it lost its hold on how to be successful in the furniture business. Like the "buggy whip" business, things change. The singer, Madonna, has gone through many morphs, as has Cher. When my wife and I got our first jobs, we commissioned my youngest brother, a young woodworker who started his own company, to make two bedroom chests and a kitchen table. He went directly to the EA catalog and came up with some nice designs and made them for us. We still use them daily. That wouldn't happen today. In past decades, I used to enjoy meandering through the EA showrooms. I gave that up quite a while ago. To me, what happened to EA, is not uniquely "American", but uniquely "human". In all countries, some companies lose their way. This has nothing to do with getting new machinery, or the rise of the Chinese. While EA went down, Apple has continued to bloom and renew itself and continually generate great new products. THat too, is not a uniquely American thing, but rather a "human" thing. I think it is good to toast the old and good Ethan Allen furniture company, and to remember it fondly, and then let go. There are a lot of old furniture companies which go on and on and their stuff remains great. Karges comes to mind. See it at:
http://www.karges.com/Another company is Widdecomb. It has changed over the years and is now made by L. & J.G. Stickley, Inc. http://www.johnwiddicomb.com/History.htmThese are two of my favorites. Yours may be different. But that guy, Darwin, was right. We adapt or we die, and even if we adapt, we may die anyway. How many companies are left from the original Dow Jones Average. I believe it is only one, and that one doesn't resemble what it was originally. This has been a good thread to make one think, regardless of one's take on the EA situation. Nice job, Bob. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Yours may be different. But that guy, Darwin, was right. We adapt or we die"
Unless your GM and have some heavy union paybacks to deliver. Then the gov't to the rescue! Darwin is right if we all play by the rules. The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
So I guess those investment bankers we tax payers gave to TARP etc.. didn't happen? Last I heard they didn't make cars or have unions..
So is it just that REPUBLICANS WANT TO GIVE THE MONEY TO THE UBBER RICH WHILE THE DEMOCRATS WANT TO GIVE IT TO THE WORKERS?
Dude, I did not approve of Tarp. That was not a good Idea, either but suposedly it was to stabliize the money supply that is critical to all not just one company. Now after they had the money they fudged the rules to use it as they saw fit. Huge dissapointment on the Bush admin for that one. Now given that, it does not mean we can do two stupid things.
If you look at your boy obama's cabinet IT's tight with Goldman sachs so don't give me the Rupublicans for the rich and dems for the common man. CLass envey does no one any good. I guess you never bought into the rising tide lifts all boats. And just remember that saying its ok as long as you only stick it to the rich is a cool sound bite until you realize just who the government thinks is rich and you realize it's YOU!!!!!!!!!
You have a good one Frenchy, I bet the lakes up your way are looking mighty fine about now. I'm close to burn out from work and need a good vacation and would love a good lake or a view like Lee posted in another thread. later.The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
It's not at all about class envy.. (the standard fall back position of your party when the obvious is pointed out to them)..
Instead It's about burden sharing..
Here's why it's really skewed at this point.. When Clinton was president the top 400 people paid 31% of their income in taxes.. last year those same people paid only 19% of their income in taxes.
How? Well don't forget there are over 22,000 pages of tax breaks in todays tax codes.. plus countless legal exemptions awarded as a result of court fights etc..
Most people aren't even aware of them. I mean the tax form the governemnt sends out to most people doesn't list 99% of the deductions and exemptions not to mention legal precidents.
If the Ubber rich like Madoof etc.. don't pay their fair share then the middle class and poor wind up picking that up..
An investment banker making a Billion dollars a year paying only 19% of his income tax and being able to pass the full amount onto his children smacks of what caused the French revolution.. Too much money in too few hands..
50 % of the wealth of this nation is in the hands of the top 5% Following WW2 that was 50% of the wealth of this nation was in the hands of the top 25% of the population.. That's when this country really became a powerhouse.. when wealth was distributed according to merit rather than because you happen to be born into the right family..
Inherited wealth is wrong.. America fought against it for their indepence. It's what America was founded on..
bones,
How 'bout these just to kinda tide ye over for a bit till ye git there?
View Image
View Image
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob nice view. Which lake is that?
Shoe, that is Lake Wallace from the good side (Canada!), where I am right now. It sits astride the US/Canada border in northern Vermont. We have to go thru customs to get there.
We'll have to see what happens when we go back as I forgot my passport. Maybe I'll get lucky and they won't let back in the states. :-)
There's a lot of Oh Canada playing here today.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/1/2009 11:44 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Thanks Thats very nice. I nice distraction from the trials and tribulations. Take care.The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
I'm close to burn out from work and need a good vacation and would love a good lake or a view like Lee posted in another thread. later.
OK Bones I have just the thing for you and its right near by. If you are fimiliar with Kempton PA(near you) you still have time to plan and make the event.
Chuck Dixon has a gathering of the Kentucky rifle builders on his farm in Kempton. Admission is free and it goes on for the entire weekend.
Last Friday in July every year. Easy to remember.
If you want to see if anything might interest you, you can google this and look at photos from a previous gathering. Lots of high quality wood work to see.
Just a thought.
Dan
http://dixonmuzzleloading.com/index.php?section=gunmakersfair&link=generalinfo
:04 pm ET by danmart
Edited 7/4/2009 12:05 pm ET by danmart
Thanks, I'd love to try to get that. Your right it is close. I'm traveling on business but might make it back in time. I love blackpowder. I use to shoot a lot and hunt with primitive wepons. Biggest buck I ever took was with a muzzle loader. I'll give it a google. (now thats not something i ever expected to say as a young man. )The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Bones,
The government does not have what it takes to make GM successful, IMHO. It is only a matter of time. I don't want to get into a discussion of what the government can or cant do, or should or shouldn't do. I just don't think Knots is a good place to do that. Besides, I believe that talking about what the govt does is a waste of time. DOING something about it is a good thing. It is just talking about it that I dont like to do. Please don't think that I am trying to stop you or anyone else from doing it. Have fun, my friend,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well said.. that often happens when the originator or the person who made the business successful because of his drive or ambition etc.. retires and is replaced by someone who promises greater profits..
Drain the resources off any company and that's a formula for failure..
sadly <!----><!----><!---->America<!----><!----> is quickly losing it's last stronghold.. a superior education<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
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We only have ourselves to blame for that.
It's so easy to blame the unions.. However unions have done and continue to do good things and adjust to real world market conditions..
Let's look at so called socialized Finland.. that's where one of the worlds richest men makes his living building furniture. His secret? efficency.. his goal is to save 10% a year (and he does it too) He tracks waste and finds uses for it.. recycles energy and etc..
His labor and tax costs must massively exceed America's due to their superior health care and social safety nets.. Yet he's one of the top billionaires..
Ralph,
I suspect, however, that their union contract would come into play, and might prevent such a decision.
To the best of my knowledge there was no workers union at the Beecher Falls facility. I'll confirm that tomorrow.
Also, I'd be curious to know when the boom years were for Ethan Allen. I suspect it was between 1960 and 1980. The rumor mill is flourishing around here right about now. Too bad my aunt Eleanor wasn't still operating the switchboard down at the old telephone office. :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I was referring to my hypothetical factory, not the actual EA shop. But, it would be interesting to know if the EA factory was unionized, and, if so, under which union banner.
"...it's the faught of the owners who have simply failed to keep pace with modern equipment and techniques.. "
Frenchy, why invest in retrofitting an old factory when I can move my whole operation overseas at a fraction of the cost and at the same time eliminate dealing with a business unfriendly environment that has become the US. Now that cap and tax has passed the house, or as I like to call it the manufacturing death act of 2009, want to do any upgrades where my costs for utilities, compliance, environmental, etc are going to go way up? If I were not considering moving production I will now! It's happening has been happening and will accellerate. The irony is hurting mfg hurts the middle class the most. It's those marginally skilled jobs that dissapear. I'ts sad, but maybe necessary for people to open their eyes. The problem is once those mfg jobs leave it gets harder to get them back. The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Well,
there is also a case where a large manufacturer built a factory in China. Same everything (why change is something works well?) same machines, same processes, same quality control. After all said and done the result was a significantly higher yield (20% if I recall correctly) out of the Chinese factory.
Of course management appointed a team to understand the root cause of that issue. The final conclusion of that team's report, as I understand it, was that everything was indeed the same and that the Chinese workers in this specific factory were just better than their American counterparts.
Having said that, I am sure that plenty of counter-examples can be found.
Chris---
Chris Scholz
Dallas/Fort Worth, TX
Galoot-Tools
Maybe, but my point is you have areas of the globe that are encouraging by policy bringing manufacturing to them and other areas that consider it a problem. Sometimes there are unintended consequences and byproducts of what we do as a gov't. I guess the old saying is true "we don't succeed in business because of government, but in spite of it". Have a good one. The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Let's not forget that the company has to pay aprox 50% in taxes and if they have it made in Ireland it will be around 12%. Dang shame, but I saw the same thing in southside VA with the textile industry. The very folks shopping at walmart worked in the mills and wondered what happened to their jobs. Face it price matters.
The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Edited 6/27/2009 9:19 pm by bones
While undoubtedly higher than the recent corporate tax rate in Ireland, Ethan Allen's tax rate, tax expense as a fraction of net income before taxes has been around 37--38 percent, not 50%.. Which makes sense since the basic Federal tax rate for corporations is 35%.
Now, working this out as real taxes paid is quite complicated, given the accounting treatment of taxes, which is one of the most complicated accounting exercises around. And, until GAAP accounting rules for US and EU firms are unified, making detailed apples to apples comparisons across countries is quite impossible to do from published financials statements.
Effective tax rate is much higher than that. When added all together rate is around 50%. I work in manufacturing and in a global environment. We (us) can have the most efficient operations and still lose simply on tax basis alone. Its a fact mfg in the us is on the the decline as a whole, but the gov't is never going to give up one bloody nickle, so china and europe will win big on this. They are out smarting us on this. The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
As a matter of curiosity, what are these hidden taxes that increases the rate so much?
There's several. And depending on what you manufacture, many. The federal income tax is only one. However when you run a business you add it up and get an effective tax rate. Now keep in mind, it will not be called taxes, but fees or costs associated with compliance with regulations and exports and inports of certain materials. Now lets add the states in there and thats what I was reffering to. Its taxes just the same. What's the old saying if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, well you finish it. To be competative a business is going to do what is necesary to survive. So do the math and only look at one tax rate fed as you say 38 that alone could kill your chances to compete if you are a global company. I'll use another example. Let's say you make widgets and I'll not even make it a global situation lets make it domestic US. You look around and compare states and while state 1 has the best widget builders in the world and the plants are modern and the work force educated and labor rates are competative. Lets have all that even. Now lets say that state 1 wanting to have lots of mfg base for taxing says ya know what come on here and we will only tax you at 12%. State two says you greedy little company that has a ceo that makes too much money, you need to pay me 35% of your net just to be in my state. Further, since I have some programs that I want to do and fund you need to kick in that money so I can keep my constituents happy and I can get re-elected. Now you stay here because this is whre you are from and you owe us! What ya gonna do? Well unless your a putz you move to where the best deal is. State one then goes dang don't understand why I'm loosing mfg jobs. We need to compete, so I'm going to make those bad businesses pay a higher tax to punish them (Inside I really need more money since my tax base is leaving but I'm not cutting any of my programs but it sounds good on TV). So I'm going to pass a carbon tax. That way I can say I'm hoping to stop the global warming, but inside its just about the money honey. MFG costs due to high energy consumption of mfg, double further making state two uncompetative. Meanwhile state one goes, boy I'm glad we just bleed our businesses a little instead of being so gready that they go away.
Steve, I know I way over simplified, but I've seen first hand how you can be the best in mfg and still loose simple by looking at the bottom line. When you look at that P&L statement and see the impact of what taxes alone do, you start looking for ways to do it better. Also keep in mind you have other companies in other countries making your widgets and if you don't compete and get close you will go out of business. My walmart reference is a good example. Even the workers in the textile mills in soutside VA shopped at walmart because of price, knowing their products come from china. We are not just a few points higher we are huge and instead of seeing that we should be cutting tax rates to stimulate we are going to raise taxes! It boggles the mind and yet we put them in and they do it and the jobs go bye bye and we sream why?
Further, I continually watch the auctions of the furniture factories equipment and feel just horrible. I hate it but with the current climate it's only going to get worse not better. I'm close to retirement in a few years and hopefully will make it, but my Son's I fear for. Have a good one Steve, I'm off to make some saw dust.
The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Edited 6/28/2009 12:19 pm by bones
Edited 6/28/2009 12:21 pm by bones
The main problem is that the products that EA made are out of fashion. How many people do you know buy traditionally made furniture anymore? What people are buying isn't cheaper made versions of EA furniture. They are buying much less expensive furniture that is designed completely differently. Simpler, less sturdy, designed to be replaced, but much much less expensive. Also people don't have the same kind of furniture they used to have - lifestyles have changed. Sadly the management of EA didn't keep up with the design and innovation and a lot of good people consequently got the short end of the stick. Joel
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com
Joel,
To add to your post I've seen pieces that were/are not of the same quality they used to be. One in particular, a cherry bench that I fixed, had a lot of sapwood in it. After removing the finish the seat looked like a mosaic of pieces of heart and sapwood, albeit the pieces were all solid cherry though.
The main problem is that the products that EA made are out of fashion.
Seems as though they made an attempt at adapting but the horse was already out of the gate long before. Recent advertising alludes to more modern pieces and design services in an apparent attempt to diversify their offerings.
Not sure but I think the degradation of their quality may have also contributed to their demise too. They are not down the toilet, yet.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Even the workers in the textile mills in soutside VA shopped at walmart because of price, knowing their products come from china.
I wonder if the unemployed textile workers in New Hampshire shopped at Ames (predecessor to Walmart) because of price, knowing the products they used to make in NH came from southside VA.
You are 100% on target the government is a major factor in forcing companies to move over seas. All the regulations and corporate taxes will end up eliminate the middle class. It is very sad that the American people are ignorant to this fact, and a certain political party plays to that ignorance. Fact one corporations do not pay taxes,only individuals who produce goods and services do. Fact two rich people are good for America, Bill Gates company employes over 200,000 people world wide many in the U.S.A. The best way to stimulate the economy is to lower taxes across the board for everyone, the reason the politicians will not do that is with your tax dollars they have all the control. America is moving toward a socialist might i say Communist country.
God bless America
The Liberals are very effective at painting the rich as some fat cat smoking a cigar and stealing from widows and babies. They further instill the belief that only covernment can save the day. Most people don't understand what they consider rich. It's seems to be ok when the governemt is shaking down the next guy. I still laugh when people say corporations need to pay more taxes!!!! They just don'e understand that it's us that pay the taxes not a company. They just pass it along. When the governmnet raises the taxes a company can only raise their prices so much because generally they are not the lone supplier of that product, so what do they do? Cut the most costly expense they have people. I know Obama wants to emulate europe, well now he's succeeded. We now have the same unemployment as Europe. YEEHAA! Change man we gettin Change!!!!!!!!!! He's a post Turtle! The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
I can't believe you. Do you drink the republican coolaide daily and refuse to accept the flaws of your party completely?
Here's some fact to chew on.. the cuurant condition is caused by your boy Bush's war in Iraq.. we spent more than we had. Instead of raising taxes to pay for it he lowered taxes leaving a giant debt.. when his economic policies started to fall apart in his last year he brought the world and this country to the brink of a massive great depression..
CURRANT UNEMPLOYMENT IS A DIRECT RESULT OF HIS FAILURES!
The fact that in less than 6 months Obama has slowed down the rate of increase is a good statement about the policies of Obama.
As for the rich.. under Clinton the tax rate paid by the top 400 was 31% Bush dropped that down to 17% and the nation got deep in debt..
The ubber rich must pay more in taxes they receive the most benefits of this country.. Remember what the ubber rich fail to pay the middle class has to make up for..
We can learn a lot from Europe..
They don't have Auto Factories begging for a bail out.. they aren't losing market share, Their employees have more vacation,, and better working conditions than our workers..
They live longer and healthier lives..
You are greatly mistaken, President Bill Clintons i didn't have sex with that woman and Al the globe warming Gore were shouting to go to war against Sodom Hussaine,but they wanted someone else to do the heavy lifting, you should check it out. This economic melt down goes back to another Dem. President Carter we surrender. The congress under the Dems. forced banks and other lending institutions to make loans to people who could not otherwise qualify, if not they were labled as racist and the democratic congress would investigate these companies. What do you think about a United State senator on the senate floor of the congress call our men and women in uniform ####, his name Senator Dick i am a Democrat Derbin.
God Bless America
"You are greatly mistaken, President Bill Clintons i didn't have sex with that woman and Al the globe warming Gore were shouting to go to war against Sodom Hussaine,but they wanted someone else to do the heavy lifting, you should check it out. This economic melt down goes back to..."
I think that the above is a great example of why we should stick to woodworking.
LOL..
And I am listining to a old song.. I watched the Haror Lights. Or was that Shrimp boats Is Comming?
Edited 7/3/2009 7:23 pm by WillGeorge
woodenhead..
Twist whatever you want, however you should know some basic facts..
According to whitehouse .gov (during Bush's presidency) Republicans have the dubious record of increasing the nation debt the most while democrats have the remarkable record of decreasing the national debt.
The lowest Debt to GDP ratio? Carter at 31% The Highest (pre Bush jr) 78% under Reagan. Debt ration remained the same during Bush sr. tenure but Clinton brought it back down to 54%
Ironic that inflation #caused by not paying for the Vietnam war started under Nixon 6.2% and increased during Fords tenure.7.0% President Ford went around the whitehouse wearing WIN buttons (Whip Inflation Now)
Lowest rate of inflation? Kennedy at 1.1% Clinton at 2.6% and Johnson at 2.9%
Compare them to Nixon @ 6.2%, Ford @ 7.0% Reagan @ 4.2%
As for No money down housing It was first introduced for returning GI's following WW2 amid great fear by the republicans who opposed it, that it would result in massive foreclosures.
However that proved to be not true since the rate of foreclosures remained at about the same amount as pre WW2 and no higher with GI's buying with nothing down..
You have managed to confuse the issue of redlining with court decisions regarding it's practice being illegal as determined by the courts.. With a banks fiduciary duties. There was no requirement to allow unqualified people to purchase homes they did not qualify for.
That was introduced by greedy bankers in an attempt to get more of the extremely profitable Home loan origination fees. To prevent themselves from being burnt by their failure to qualify customers bankers invented unregulated unfunded Credit default swaps. Taking advantage of the federal regulations which clearly require funding for any "insurance" simply by calling them swaps..
If you want I can go into a great degree of explanation as to how it slipped by regulation. Or it's creation by a Nobel prize winning economist who used flawed data to set up the terms of those swaps.. Swaps which almost nobody (including the very bankers who issued them) understood..
I don't blame you for being confused. This is a very charged situation which nearly brought the world to a great depression. Giving full Credit to President Bush (jr.) he at least followed the advice of leading finacial experts and stopped the massive crash by quickly issuing Tarp funds..
While government interference in the banking industry is hated by republicans, If he'd followed the Precedent established by Hoover the result would have been far worse than another trillion dollars added to the nations debt..
Left to it's own devices as Hoover did during the great depression the result would have been far more catastrophic.
Finally your comment about Clintons statement about his personal sex life should have never been brought up. The republicans lead by Newt Gingrich made viciuous attacks on President Clinton during his whole term in office attempting to do in court what they could not do with the vote.. It's Ironic that 2 of President Clintons most Vocal opponants were both forced to resign based on details about their own sex life which a Magazine threatened them with disclosure..
It would seem that I'm on an endless program to point out Democratic successes.
Frankly they are flawed as well! Ask and I will go into great detail about their failures as well. I will gladly do so if you acknowledge similar failures by republican politicains..
Frankly both parties have dirty underwear.
Edited 7/3/2009 8:25 pm ET by frenchy
They didn't do it in the OVAL OFFICE and lie under oath.
What? are you kidding? Politicians not lie? When did that happen? Even George Washington was caught in a whopper!
Besides details of something as personal as sex should never be on the news for little kids to hear about Blow jobs..
That in my opinion was criminal.. Especially when those making the most noise were foced to resign because of their own sex life!
You really cares who screwed who or where they did it??????????????????????
Taigert it was ####B J and he said B J it's Sex .
He said it "wasn't" perhaps he got Hillary to go along with him on that.
My wife looked me straight in the eye, and warned me " don't even think about going there".
Like W.C. Fields said, "there's a sucker born every minute"
No punn intended of course?
Taigert
I've read all 112 messages in this thread and it's been interesting.The first thing that struck me was that the only two people who use a political sign off quote (I'm sure there's a word for this but I'm not into forums much) are Conservatives, one of whom quotes Reagan under a different name and the other of whom quotes an old pseudo-Libertarian saying. No Liberals use a political quote at the end of each post as far as I could tell. I don't profess to know what this observation reveals, if anything, but I found it interesting.Second, I was amazed to learn that there are still active Randian/Libertarian believers that don't mind stating their views. One would have thought that the last eight years would have caused a logical person to reconsider that belief system. Though it may be true that the Strauss-Friedman-Laffler-Regan-Greenspan-Rand-Gordon Gekko cult is shrinking rapdly that would only seem natural considering the results of their philosophy when they were put to the test in the real world. The economy collapsed under their economic philosophy. Even worshipping at the alter of wealth didn't bring an answer, or at least not one that they can live with, so they migrated to another state - the State of Denial.But does the complete failure of the Conservative philosophy necessarily mean that Liberalism is the answer for all things? Why should it? We can safely say that Liberalism isn't as wrong-headed as Conservatism but can we say that it's right in all particulars? I don't think so. Besides, there are so many variations of Liberalism, as there are of Conservatism, whose to pick the particular one?The Conservative philosophy has failed in a very large, very public, and very horrible way, dragging much of the world down with it. Instead of beating that dead horse shouldn't we be talking and debating our way through the many options that Liberalism offers? All developed countries in the world have universal health care. Not having it puts American companies at a disadvantage, lowers the level of health care in America, and increases health care costs for Americans. Paying attention to the failed ideas of Libertarians is a time suck. The conversations should center around issues; in this case which variation of universal health care is the best for the country? If each issue were tackled in this sensible way we could make progress.Edited 7/10/2009 6:50 pm ET by msteroftheuniverse
Edited 7/10/2009 6:52 pm ET by msteroftheuniverse
Thus far the libertarian party hasn't attracted enough support to be considered a viable alternative to the two major parties.
We can speculate why that is, but bottom line America seldom has a effective third party..
True, as a political party the Libertarians are nothing, but the philosophy is pervasive in modern Conservatism and therefore the Republican party. It's what was put into practice during the last eight years, which is why the economy collapsed. Ayn Rand was a Utopianist and her beliefs were as unrealistic as the Communism she left as a youth. Trying to read Atlas Shrugged is a chore. The plot makes no sense, the characters behave in unrealistic ways, it ignores human nature, it's illogical, it's preachy, and when you look at it in the cold light of reality it's simply goofy. Her book(s) and the Libertarian philosophy have always been popular among high school seniors and college freshman, but once a person matures it loses its appeal. Unfortunately, since 1980 that philosophy has taken over the Republican party and the Republican party took over the country. Regan started the downward slide (de-regulation and the Savings & Loan Scandal were precursors to the current investment bank/hedge fund/securities libertarian meltdown of our economy. Same beliefs, same pattern, same result - but bigger because the Republicans had more power, controlling the Administrative branch, legislative: both houses of congress, and the judicial branch (the U.S. Supreme Court and the overwhelming majority of Federal District Courts). Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
But the conservative wing of the Republican party is far, far from libertarian in ideology. It has largely forgotten the social liberty side of libertarianism, and focused entirely on economic liberty, where rich are poor alike are free to sleep over subway grates for warmth.
The emphasis, if not all their attention, has been placed on the economic side. I agree totally. That's why Ron Paul had such a time with other Republican candidates on certain issues.There seems to be a strong strain that runs through economic libertarianism which embraces social totalitarianism. I've given some thought to that but don't feel I've reached the answer yet. I suspect it centers somewhere near the idea of egoism and egotism which accompanies economic success. The rich often feel that ruling is their due, that the less than rich are inferior and therefore subservient and need to be controlled (not least to prevent them from getting the riches of the rich). In their view of the rightful order of things they also place themselves above the law and therefore feel no hesitation in expanding social laws to the point of a quasi-totalitarian state.Or it might be the confluence of Libertarianism and Conservatism. Libertarianism brings the money and Conservatism brings the social totalitarianism. For me, it still is an unsettled question and I'm still open to new ideas.
well said.. The problem is the flaw in their approach is hard to explain in a sound bite.. which given the poor state of American education is all many people are able to grasp.. Thus the democratic party with all it's flaws becomes the resort of the educated and intellectual. With that group of people there is a broad diversity of priorities and very little agreement on workable solutions..
Which in a nation of 300 million people is required. Not all of what conservatives expose is wrong nor is every program proposed by democrats right.. The best solutions come from a broad diversity of thought freely and exhaustively debated.
To: Taigert
"I've read all 112 messages in this thread and it's been interesting."Fabulous!
But are you prepared to submit to a test to demonstrate your expertise?
No true false questions and no multiple choices mind you!
TT
To: Twotowers
Listen up now! I am perhaps guilty of a few things in life, but reading all 112 post in this thread is darn sure not one of them.
I have learned to use my time in a much more productive way, than to argue about politics. Sorry
Taigert
Taigert:
Just pulling your leg! But I will put the test aside for the next person that we can catch.... I will administer the test and you can grade ;-)
Best
TT
As long as I can fill out the answer sheet with crayon I'm game.
Well said!
Taigert
Frenchy.. Well said. I vote no party..
Unfortunetly that won't work.. Anarchy will result which is worse than what we have now..
Countries need governments to do all the things governments should do.. defence, roads, infrastructure, etc. etc. etc.
I would say no..
My neighbor is a ChecK? He and I drink togeter.. His wife gets us to the proper home we live in.. After drinking...
He hardly ever speaks English.. I know no Check! We get long some how..
I wish I was rich and had to pay taxes!
Me too!
No matter what the tax rate is I would be better off if I earned a million dollars a year than if I make minimum wages.
Whining about the cost of being rich sounds nice to me.. I wish I could..
Dude, you go from coolaid to the war in iraq causing unemployment, I had to read twice to see where that train went off the tracks. My beliefs are not from following a party line, but from studying the history of our country and the founding fathers. You envy the rich but think of them as the enemy and think somehow by someone else having something you are denied something. Only in America, can you take an idea apply yourself and if you are successful reap the fruits of your labor. You don't have the Garantee of success only a shot at it. Don't give me the bs about only the rich succeed and keep the masses down, success happens every day for those that don't feel sorry for themselves and go out and do it spite of people telling them it will never work or it can't be done! The test of ones stuff is what you do when your down! Do you stay there or get up try again. If I would have accepted my position in life at birth, I would not be enjoying life now (no garantees for tomorrow but today). I don't have but a fraction of what you call uber rich, but I don't spend my days wishing someone would take their money away. How will that make me better? Further, I don't assume that every person that has money stole it. Finally, I defininate dont condone the government stealing the wealth of someone just because they're dead! If I manage to make money and die with a nickle, I should be the one to decide who gets my nickle. If it's my wife and kids thats my decision. I took the risk to make that nickle and I should give it away. If it's a nickle my dad gave me when he died its none of the damn gov't business. Have a happy 4th man.
The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Well by some standards I'm rich. I mean my home is worth millions and I've got a lot of fancy collector cars etc.. Most of my neighbors consider themselves well off. So I guess you're wrong in that regard..
By the way Warren Buffit thinks it's too easy to evade taxes completely and I guess if someone like him thinks the tax system is too easy then maybe we better take a second look at it! Do you realize how many pages there are in the currant tax code?
22,000
That's right! and that doesn't begin to count the numbers of court rullings that affect things or the numbers of appeals granting other tax breaks..
I want to be rich I like a lot of my rich friends However the republican party has made it extremely easy to avoid taxes once you are above a certain level.
This country was founded on the principle of equlity of all. That's why inheritance tax was created so the ubber rich couldn't pass their wealth down and give their children an unfair advantage.. Thus creating an American class structure!
There are plenty of legal ways to give your children your wealth right now and avoid inhertiance taxes completely. If your p[arents choose not to perhaps they don't want to burden you with their wealth..
Great wealth is a great burden. It carries it's own issues and problems.
The fundamental flaw with the tax system as it exists now is that too much of thios nations wealth is in too few hands.. Once a certain level of wealth is achieved money becomes a accounting or status symbol and doesn't trickle trough the economy very well.
Look at the post war era. and note the spread of wealth following the great depression.. compare that to today and you'll see how few people control such great ammounts of wealth.
That in a nut shell is what caused the recent recession. And what's more that's why recovery will be so slow! You and the rest of the middle class don't have enough assests to spend America out of it's problems that wealth(50%) is being held by 1% of the nation.
"That in a nut shell is what caused the recent recession. And what's more that's why recovery will be so slow! You and the rest of the middle class don't have enough assests to spend America out of it's problems that wealth(50%) is being held by 1% of the nation."
My man the reason this recession is going long and will continue to do so is the fear that runaway spending (inflation) and threat of increased taxes is going to hurt us. Business are holding back even shedding jobs trying to hunker down and wait it out. Look at people they are saving every nickle. If they wanted to stimulate the economy they could have cut taxes and instantly stimulate. The govt cannot create demand. They can put capital for people to use and let them create the goods and services people will want. Look at all this so called stimulus, they are just growing gov't. We are monitizing our dept and if we don't stop what people think is bad now will be pittance. So what does our illustrious leaders want to do now spend more money. You've got California going broke, NY is not far behind. We have a president that has an American express with no limit and is breaking the bank. And go check and see how much the top 5 percent pay in taxes. Let me ask you something when is the last time you had a poor person give you a job. And as to your comment about the 1% wealth what would you do make us all earn the same, have the gov't tell us what to make where we can live. You sound like you want central planning. Sure don't sound like the America of Jefferson. I know you just want whats "Fair" the only problem is who gets to decide what's fair? You know if you think the gov't should have more money to waste you are free every year to send in more than you owe. Just kindly keep your hands out of my pockets. The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Bones we can't cut back on taxes.. Bush doubled our national debt with his economic policies. It was slightly below a trillion dollars if you add the surplus back in when he took office.
It took us 225 years to get that deep in dept. Eight years of his economic policies and it's now more than doubled when Obama took over!
Interest alone will eat up a sizeable portion of the revenue..
That's before we buy a single bullet or fill one plane with fuel to defend us..
Face it spending a trillion dollars on a war 1/2 way around the world was stupid.. To spend that while giving a tax cut is stupid squared!
That plus republicans never had a spending bill vetoed.
So much for being conservative!
Good news!.. America knows how to deal with this problem.. We've done it ever since we became a nation..
How? Inflation.. it happens after every war. The price of things double and slowly our wages catch up. So if your house is now worth $100,000 when inflation is over it will be worth $200,000 and your payments won't go up a cent! If the number is diffrant just double it and you should be pretty close.
It won't hurt Americans because we have a negative savings rate. Almost Nobody really has any money stuffed under their mattress.
So we can't cut taxes untill we deal with this mess.
Personally I don't care if they do cut taxes.. On average I pay 1% of my income in federal taxes (state is slightly higher at 2%)
That's because I'm cleaver enough to know how to legally avoid a lot of taxes (well my tax advisor is extremely helpful in this regard)
The average person doesn't have enough knowledge to take advantage of the 22,000 + pages of tax code. Not to mention the legal precidents and court rullings..
So untill you earn a lot more money and can afford the people who can help you , you will be stuck paying a lot of taxes..
It's called the poverty tax!
frenchy,
I may have missed it but I can't seem to relate what you say to Ethan Allen? Maybe I should look in the Cafe?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/5/2009 11:06 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
I pointed out early in the discussion why Eathan Allen and many other companies are going out of business.
To briefly review it has nothing to do with unions and lousy American workers as was alledged. Instead it is because the owners failed to reinvest in their plants to keep themselves ahead of competition..
Prefering to take bigger and bigger chunks of the equity instead. We're now at a point where Owners can get large tax breaks simply by closing plants with obsolete equipment.. They don't have to go in debt to buy the needed equipment. Since they get a big tax write off it's mostly tax free income!
It deteriorated from there..
It seems to me that your argument assumes a couple of factors:1. the owner of the business was obligated to make the initial investment for the purpose of providing jobs for the employees, and2. There is an on-going obligation to invest more capital to improve the viability of the workers' jobs.Capitalism doesn't work that way, and Socialism doesn't work at all. Eventually, we run out of other people's money, and Atlas shrugs.
If you own a business and want it to remain viable you have to change Update) with the times.. That or competition forces you out of business..
What has happened all too often in the last generation is the children or grandchildren inherite a business and treat it like a cash cow, squeezing all the money they can without reinvestment.
When the company can no longer compete they take the final measure of a tax deduction in closing down the business. That to me is the ultimate crime against the people who helped the owner achieve what he did.. Instead of paying his fair share he avoids it and thus passes the burden on to the very people he was instrumental in putting out of work.
Look I hear tyou want employers to get a break.. they get many breaks in the tax code. The ultimate is that 8 years ago to top 400 tax payers paid 31% of their income today they pay 17%
Tell me have your taxes been cut in half?
"What has happened all too often in the last generation is the children or grandchildren inherite a business and treat it like a cash cow, squeezing all the money they can without reinvestment."
You are suggesting that our country does exactly this in a separte thread regarding healthcare. Fix your contradictions.
No representation without taxation
Edited 7/9/2009 1:28 pm ET by MattInPA
Bob,
you said: I may have missed it but I can't seem to relate what you say to Ethan Allen? Maybe I should look in the Cafe?Why would you assume that anyone should stay on the original topic of a thread? Remember the 6000 post thread? Multiple topics at any one time, and none stayed for long. Yet it was a lot of fun. Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
Let us travel to where our minds take us.
Laissez les bon temps roullez.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
10 trillion in new debt 10 TRILLION! Frenchy you are so far left that any further and you would be with Marx. Oh well, only history will tell, but I'm sure he will be with Jimmy Carter in that regard. I'm done with this topic so keep in hating the rich and blaming them for everything you don't have if you want, I'll just keep doin the best I can and be positive that is all I can do. The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
I remember all sorts of Bad News..
Hell, when I got out of the Army nobody was hiring anybody. My last interview was a man that was in Army as I was.. He hired me on the spot! I did not know that at the time... I guess he figured if I got out of the Army in one hunk I was skilled or lucky..
Lost my last job from Down-Sizing after I worked for the same company for many. many years.. Best thing that happened to me besides meeting my wife in kindergarden..
Spent most of my funds going to China for my two girl grandbabies... I will NEVER regret that! They are the best and really smart and some poor mother gave them up.. We tell them they are adoped, We love you as your Mother did.. And your mother crys for you..
We leave it at that.. Except to tell her your mother left a kiss for you. Your old grandpa left it on the plane in the hurry to get off the plane...
I think they will believe untill they are 14 so so!
Edited 7/3/2009 2:16 pm by WillGeorge
American people are ignorant to this fact.. I drink Jack and should drink Absolute Vodka?
Bones Taxes in China and Finland are much higher!
yet they're the ones kicking our butts!
You are wrong, corporate taxes in China are lower. The political corruption is higher.
Corporations pay taxes only on their profits, not on their earnings.
Corporations pay taxes only on their profits, not on their earnings.
If only that were true. Corporations pay tons of taxes in order to operate whether profitable or not.
Oh yes, the roughly 8% share of payroll taxes. Can you name others specifically as well as the rate? If you can't name them, they aren't taxes.
Oh yes, the roughly 8% share of payroll taxes. Can you name others specifically as well as the rate? If you can't name them, they aren't taxes.
Let's just leave it that your original post was wrong - by your own statement, above - and leave it at that. The list you want is very much dependant on the state, county, city in which you operate, the nature of the business, whether or not you import or export, etc., etc. This forum isn't the place for all that detail. I simply didn't wish to leave your original post up there unchallenged in it's incorrect state.
That said, your 8% number is a tad low.
If 8% for the employer's share of payroll taxes is low, then what is the exact number? The employee pays the other 8% or so plus medicare.What I dislike is all the ranting and raving and hand-waving about vague generalities and dubious conclusions such as in the post by "bones". If we want to cite specifics, let's do so.
What I dislike is all the ranting and raving and hand-waving about vague generalities and dubious conclusions such as in the post by "bones". If we want to cite specifics, let's do so.
With all due respect, the most vague generality and dubious conclusion I've read so far is yours when you attest that corporations only pay tax on profits. That has been corrected now.
With regard to payroll taxes, a discussion on the specific list of taxes, by state, county, municipality for various types of employers isn't the right discussion for this forum.
If interested, you might want to visit the Bureau of Labor Statistics website and look at the report:
EMPLOYER COSTS FOR EMPLOYEE COMPENSATION—DECEMBER 2008
Fascinating reading if you are so inclined.
For example, did you know that in the US it costs the average employer about $1.51 to pay a manufacturing employee $1.00 in wages? Yes, that includes taxes, benefits, etc. It also includes something the BLS calls 'legally required benefits' and 'workers compensation insurance' and 'short term disability.' for example. While these are not specifically taxes, the government requires employers pay for this (depending on state/county/municipality) to third party providers. If you don't want to call that a tax, you can call it a fish or a bird or a pancake; don't matter, it's a tax.
Sorry, didn't mean to get so involved with this stuff. I hope it is at least remotely germane to the topic and of some interest to those reading this post.
Ok back to the shop!
I think it's worth googling the CEO before deciding the market is in decline, the product quality is falling, or labor is too expensive. Get the facts before you throw Americans under the bus.
The CEO was an Asian supplier (light fixtures? hardware?) of EA before he became CEO. I imagine he's been putting Americans out of work for years. My guess is he isn't all busted up about it. A cursory read suggests to me he's been trying to close this plant for at least 10 years. His online resume suggests he's alot more interested in the Islamic world than he is about furniture. If I were a shareholder, I'd be concerned.
For my part, I like companies like FWW, PW, Lee Valley, LN, where there are enthusiasts who care about their products, customers, and workers at the helm. Unfortunately, that isn't the case in every company. As I think of it, the companies whose products I most admire most, Apple for example, all have enthusiasts running them. I think there's a comnnection there. At least for me.
Adam
Edited 6/30/2009 1:09 pm ET by AdamCherubini
Adam -- LN is a great example; Apple may be a bad example as many (most?) of their products say "designed by Apple in California -- assembled in China" The Apple computer I'm typing this on has it on the bottom -- check yours!
Edited 7/14/2009 10:19 pm ET by Joel7
Don't forget that many large companies evade state and local taxes as part of the neogtiaions involed in setting up a new factory. For example the local Ford assembly plant does't pay any local or state income taxes. Plus they get free electricity (and have since the plant was opened in 1922)
Their plant is right on the Minnesota river among multi million dollar homes in a very desirable neighborhood.. (and hasn't failed to make a Profit for Ford since it opened) Yet Ford intended to close the plant because of a better deal offered by Mexico..
You have the equation wrong.
what has happened is instead of reinvesting in modern techniques, equipment, and flow Owners of such factors have drained off the capitol in search of greater returns..
GO to China,Finland, etc. look at what the best run factories are doing.. They're buying American wood and shipping it halfway around the world and then shipping the finished product back again.. Yet they make great profit and the workers are extremely well paid..
IT's not about wages! It's about efficency!.
Those big Chinese factories are run by very few people, everything is automated, computer controlled and the flow works so efficently that nobody is rolling push carts of stuff from one work station to another.. It's not unusual that factories putting out millions of dollars worth of product a month be run by 7 workers.. Logs are dropped at one end and the finished product goes out the other end already packed in shipping containers..
I sold material handling equipment to some of America's largest furniture factories and compared to what the Chinese have we might as well be back in the stone age..
American workers cannot compete against that sort of efficency.. That's why we're losing.. Lack of investment on the part of the owners..
frenchy,
I believe a lot of what you say is very true or at least that's been my experience here. In the case of EA, specifically the Beecher Falls faility, the milling machines are antiquated to say the least. Not sure about the wage thing but efficiency and flow certainly.
A fairly recent tour of the facility pointed this out to me. Sections here and there were automated but interfacing between them caused all manner of issues/problems. Lots of parts carts and the workers pushing them were in a panic state most of the time. Couldn't keep up with the machines........
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
EA has been a second tier furniture maker for at least the last 25-30 years. The quality has been a notch below Baker, Statton, Harden, etc. No North American furniture (or tool) company can compete with Asia for second class products. If a NA company is going to have a place in the market, it will not be with knock-off goods, but with high quality products. That means that the mass market will be a tough place for them to succeed.EA decided years ago that it would try to market itself as a first tier manufacturer, but sell second tier products. An enormous amount of capital went into show rooms, with acres of furniture, but not into modernizing production. The quality, attention to detail and workmanship suffered.The irony is that given the rising cost of fuel, an efficient American manufacturer, located near to its hardwood suppliers and to population centers, stands a good chance of doing better in the coming years. The idea of shipping Appalachian cherry, walnut and oak half-way around the world, making furniture, crating it and shipping it back is passing. Many people will go to Ikea or RF or some such place to buy cheap furniture, but the high margin segment of the market will pay for quality, if a company is willing to step up.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
10 years ago, my wife and I visited an EA store to shop for dressers, beds and other furniture what-nots. Every drawer (and I do mean every!) in the showroom had faults in the dovetail joints, far beyond 'normal' production variances. This was plain not-givin'-a-durn slop.A local furniture retailer (Hoot Judkins) used to sell Amish furniture. That was their term for high prices cherry furniture. Which looked great, until you opened the drawers - bad dovetails, saw marks not sanded away, Left Side written in Sharpie marker. $2500, are you kidding?Several years ago, my parents bought 4 pieces of Mako brand unfinished alder furniture. In stark contrast to Ethan Allen, every (and I do mean every) dovetail joint was perfect. No gaps, no putty, no flubs.We just bought 6 drawers from Scherrs.com for a bathroom vanity project. Custom made, and perfect dovetails!My point - it ain't hard to make perfect joints in production, machines are totally capable of it. Only company mandate + employee effort is necessary to keep things perfect. EA had the ability to make great dovetails, they just didn't bother. So I didn't bother to buy anything from them. Cheers,Seth
"Many people will go to Ikea or RF or some such place to buy cheap furniture, but the high margin segment of the market will pay for quality, if a company is willing to step up."Glacone,
but the problem with that strategy is it is only about 5% of the business! Not to over simplify but that is a strategy where 95% of the public - isn't your customer. The company will be very small......TT
I hope you don't consider Ikea furniture, what I have seen is pure junk, mass produced. Even the worst quality EA is steps above this imported crap. But people do buy on price.
Hay,
Sorry I love what Ikea does. from a price/design perspective how can't you agree?IKEA designs for 95% of America Artists design for the other 5% - Best,
TT
Glaucon,
A lot of what you say fits with what I understand about the company. Bear in mind that understanding is kind of centered around the local facility, Beecher Falls.
Back in the 60s and 70s the facility was booming with production - considered by many local workers to be THE place to work. Times were good. Along about the time the store front strategy was being put into place the quality started going down. I think you're right about them being a second tier furnituremaker but before that I believe their furniture was top shelf.
What's interesting is that at that time they did have stores, but not that many if I recall and they were sort of localized in the Notheast. I do believe they switched markets and that was the beginning of the downward trend, both in quality and profits.
Also along about this time there was a switch in management at the facility and basically the old managemnt team retired........... Not implying anything but it is rather coincidental.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I agree, US industries are not re-investing profits to increase efficiency and improve productivity.
CEOs are putting that money in their pockets.
Compare Japan and the US. In Japan the CEO makes 10 or 20 times the salary of the lowest paid worker. In the US it's more like 500 times.
I'm an engineer. I make good money. The CEO of my company makes more money in ONE DAY than I make in a YEAR. So he makes more money before he has his coffee than the mail room guy makes in a year.
Meanwhile the company stock is in the toilet, we get no raise this year, our pension is under funded and our health care benefits cut.
And pretty soon, "to cut costs and make the company stronger", there will be another round of layoffs. In the meantime the CEO, senior management and the board of directors will give themselves another big bonus for doing such a swell job.
By the way, I don't think Chinese workers are "extremely well paid", as you said. I'd like some proof of that.
Not all chinese workers by any means but those in some of the newest factories are.
They are all computer literate and capable of writing progams etc..
But over all chinese have doubled their income on average every 4 years since Nixon first went there in the 1970's. That's why their savings rate is so high. (the average chinese saves 50% of his income.
If my wages had kept pace with chinese I'd be earning something over $5million a year. (which would be pretty typical for the average American with my education)
I get at least 2 calls per week for foreign made cabinets, furniture that is either falling apart or the finish is failing after a few years. This stuff is in 500,000 dollar homes in my area and when I look at the product for a bid I can't believe the poor quality and craftsmanship. When I give them a bid to restore the piece many times they just throw the piece away and buy another. The foreign (Chinese) stuff is disposable and too expensive to repair. Disposable furniture is an incredible waste of natural resources, and it's our resources.
What can I say? those people who bought cheap cabinets for a 1/2 million dollar house sure didn't understand value..
If you come into my house you will see the bedroom set is very expensive made in America Stickly (mahogany) My desk is an Ethan Allen rolltop that is at least 35 years old.
The kitchen cabinets are or will be solid cherry I make myself.. I do have a few pieces of value that were antiques. Although I bought them from thrift shops I simply knew what to look for.
Not all quick to fall apart stuff is made in China. There's plenty of particle board stuff made right here in America. About 1 in every 4 houses I looked at when I was calling on contractors all day every day for 20 years is built with dirt cheap cabinets. Stuff that I would be ashamed of if it had my name on it..
Surprisingly some of the better cabinet makers have cheap lines too. So it's not the name that means anything.. pinned and glued assemblies made of particle board. laminated doors etc..
Not all cheap imports come from China. Ikea is a big name and they are made in Finland..
Cheap and shoddy is not exclusive to China, plus the Chinese do make some very fine solid wood furniture.
Ikea is designed and headquartered in Finland. The furniture is made all over the world. There is even a factory (or two) in the US.
There is some very cheaply made stuff, but the prices are generally commensurate. Some things are pretty good. I am setting besides some solid wood bookshelves that cost less than I could buy the wood only, even buying it in 100 bd. ft. lots. With the addition of a little glue on some dowels and clamps to draw things together firmly they are VERY solid and my son will someday have to figure out what to do with them.
Thanks I wasn't aware of that! I knew only that they were in Finland and that the owner is among the worlds richest men. That he gained that wealth by controling waste.
Nice to know details like that..
IKEA is Swedish.
Please - this is not just about American Workers. This is about the decaying network of middle class Americans. These are the people that kept our economy growing for 100 years.
Somewhere we lost our societal leaders. They were replaced by persons who are self serving and driven by greed. We have been left with fewer choices in goods and services.
Furniture, tools, automobiles, airlines, rail passenger service, decaying infrastructure, and a host of other social, political, and businesses problems developed because of corporate officers and failed government policy. Unable to compete because of a failure to invest in the future of America we are sinking.
There is not one worker in America who was given wages, salaries, or benefits without the acquiesces of administrators, boards of directors, corporate officers, and community leaders. The American worker is not the cause of the problem, they are a symptom of the problem.
Robert,
You and I are on the same page. I agree with you completely. I wrote my post to be sarcastic.
I fear for the standard of living my teenage daughters will have. I'm sure it won't be as good as mine.
And that is sad, really sad.
We - the people - need to send our message to every one in every way. Thanks for your posting.
"I fear for the standard of living my teenage daughters will have."
Thats what is great (was and will be again) about this country. Your teenage daughter as well as my two son's and whom ever else applies themselves, have the opportunity to be as great as their god given talents enable them to be. Somewhere out there there is the next Bill Gates, or Steven Jobs, or entrepreneur who envisions the next great mousetrap or Website dedicated to videos or something else and in spite every body telling them the field isn't level or you can't do it because the rich wont let you, or some other BS, they will succeed! You notice I used the word opportunity not guarantee! One of the most common threads among successful people is they have all failed at one time or another, they just chose to get back up and do it again!
Have a good one!The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Well, you are entitled to your opinion. But the facts show that real wages for all but the richest Americans are going down. Government budget deficits are going up, (a trend exacerbated by 20 years of republican "voodoo", err, "trickle down" economics.)<!----><!----><!---->
And look at the damage "george the lesser" has done to our country and our economy.<!----><!---->
When the creditors call the bill our children and grandchildren will have to pay it. That means taxes, and lots of them. So money that would have gone for homes, cars and clothes will go to the Chinese and other debt holders to pay for today’s republican spend and borrow fiscal irresponsibility. <!----><!---->
My kids are lucky. They will complete college and will be able to get a good job working for the Chinese. Kids who aren't so lucky will be flipping burgers and working at Wal-Mart. Or, if the republicans get there way, those kids will be cannon fodder in a perpetual war against some boogie man.<!----><!---->
People who believe that the next generation will be OK because there will be a new Bill Gates or Steve Jobs need to turn off the AM radio and Faux news. (By the way, where are the Microsoft and Macintosh hardware products manufactured?) They need to take off their rose colored glasses and wise up. There is still time to save My Country, but time is short and those in the "land of opportunity" camp need to see things the way they really are. Then they should lead, follow or get out of the way. <!----><!---->
If you feel you are defeated then you are! You've bought into I can't do it and you therefore you won't. Unless you are limited via your faculties you can chose not to loose! It does not matter who is in the white house you control your life!
I did find your comment interesting thought:
"When the creditors call the bill our children and grandchildren will have to pay it."
With the new borrowing being done, it will be tough, but I think people will begin abandoning this flawed policy once inflation hits and the taxes start going up to fund that 10 trillion in new debt but only time will tell. We will recover. It will be painful but we did it after the 70's with the Reagan Revolution, and we will have another. These things go in cycles. It may mean that folks have to reinvent themselves do something different. I'm sure at somepoint some guy making horse drawn carriages decided that was not the future. Now unfortunately manufacturing is under attack in the US. With the Cap and Tax bill now under consideration it may hasten it's demise. When utilities double the ability for US to compete will be further damaged but some liberal in DC will FEEL GOOD about themselves. And after all, it's not about results, its about trying!
Anyway, if I could recommend anything to the youth or grown ups facing major challenges, is keep plowing ahead do the right things and it will work out. It's still the best game in town! If your kids will soon be starting in business I've found these texts very helpful. They are as timely today as they were back when. The new version for the Teens is supposed to be well done as well for effective people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Habits_of_Highly_Effective_People
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Moved_My_Cheese%3F
Hey, if I loose my job tomorrow, I'm thinking of giving up IT and becoming a Community Organizer! I've heard that's a pretty good gig!
The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
You make my point exactly. I don't see anywhere in your post where you expand your thinking to the COUNTRY and all the middle class citizens. Your post is more of the same republican, "I got mine, the hell with you", drivel that got us into this mess.
I'm not only looking at myself and my family. Of course I'm interested in our welfare. But without a successful, strong, middle class rooted in good paying jobs and a comfortable lifestyle my family, my children, will suffer. It's already taking place.
That's the part that republicans don't get. It's sad that a portion of our citizenry, who have benefited from the sacrifices of so many of their countrymen, now turn out to be selfish skinflints. Remember this quote?
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith
You wrote, "...after all, it's not about results, its about trying!" That has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. "Well Ma, I didn't get a job this week so there's no food for the kids. But I'm trying, and that's what's important!"
Certainly there is opportunity for success via hard work in My Country. But without quality jobs for those who need them our lifestyle will decline. It's already happening. People like you just won't admit it. Luckily, you're in the minority now. Perhaps progressive, thinking people can stop the bleeding in time to save My Country. I hope so, other wise we are doomed to the republican ideal of "haves" and "have nots".
You make my point exactly. I don't see anywhere in your post where you expand your thinking to the COUNTRY and all the middle class citizens. Your post is more of the same republican, "I got mine, the hell with you", drivel that got us into this mess.
You miss the point entirely. My views are class independent! Your belief that somehow how you are born determines your place in this world. My view is exactly what this country is about. If I had accepted my place in society when I was born, I'd still be receiving a welfare check blaming someone in Washington for my fate. It's pointless and silly. It's the liberals that use the class labels to divide us and make you think that somehow your neighbor having something denies you something. I believe the exact opposite, you can go and do what you dream if you work for it. I don't believe you are OWED anything.
I'm not only looking at myself and my family. Of course I'm interested in our welfare. But without a successful, strong, middle class rooted in good paying jobs and a comfortable lifestyle my family, my children, will suffer. It's already taking place.
That's just it, the current policy will do little if not hinder the creation of jobs.
That's the part that republicans don't get.
See that is what Republicans get! We would rather put the money in the hands of those that pay for things! If Obama wanted to truly put money in the hands of people quickly he could have instantly reduced the Federal withholding tax for all Americans and put that money in your hands quickly. Why is it that the Government is never willing to do with less but always ready to tell us we need to do it!
It's sad that a portion of our citizenry, who have benefited from the sacrifices of so many of their countrymen, now turn out to be selfish skinflints. Remember this quote?
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." John Kenneth Galbraith
Selfish skin flints? Who the hell are you to determine what someone else should do with their money? You quote a liberal who favored price controls! Remember how those worked in the 70's. If it's quotes you want here's one!
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government. Thomas Jefferson You wrote, "...after all, it's not about results, its about trying!" That has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard. "Well Ma, I didn't get a job this week so there's no food for the kids. But I'm trying, and that's what's important!"
Yes it is stupid its the LIBERAL Mantra! It was said sarcastically!
Certainly there is opportunity for success via hard work in My Country. But without quality jobs for those who need them our lifestyle will decline. It's already happening. People like you just won't admit it. Luckily, you're in the minority now. Perhaps progressive, thinking
By progressive do you mean the Gov't taking care of you?
people can stop the bleeding in time to save My Country. I hope so, other wise we are doomed to the republican ideal of "haves" and "have nots".
See I see this as OUR country! I truly believe we are entitled to the Constitution and "...Pursuit of happiness" from the DOI. I will be the best I can be, and if the guy down the street has more than me, I will not assume he stole it or is not deserving of it or support the government taking it from him. I could support it, but it would do me no favor. If I witness a rich man being mugged, I do not think it's ok as long as he has lots of money, and I'm not the one being stole from. Theft is theft! There will always be haves and have nots. The only sad thing here is you believe that the Government is going to come and make us all equal and the lamb will lay with the lion and if we just negotiate with our enemies they will love us and we will all be as one! It's fantasy.
I just believe your lot in life is up to YOU, not the government. I am in a decent place now not rich by any means, I pay my bills(for now) put food on the table and have a roof over my head, so as my mom would have said " I'm wealthy beyond my wildest dreams". And I do work in MFG in the US. If it ends tomorrow, I'll go do something else. It's all about attitude! Using your analogy, Lance Armstrong should have crawled away and died! I'm sorry dude, I just have low patience for feeling sorry for one's self or envy of what others have its a terrible waste of energy. Take what ever God Given Talent you have (and everybody has talent) and make the most of it. If you don't you only have yourself to blame, not your neighbor!
Have a good one!
The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Edited 7/14/2009 1:55 pm by bones
Maybe you've heard of Warren Buffet? I guess you can say he's been reasonably successful (since he plays tag with Bill Gates for the richest American#
His opinion was that the tax system was too much in favor of the wealthy. He explained how simple it would be for him to owe no taxes at all in spite of the massive profits he makes every year..
The fact that he voluntarily PAYS 19% capitol gains tax says a great deal about his character..
I digress. one of my neighbors is a 3rd generation trust fund baby. (maybe you're eating his breakfast cereal) tells me how little taxes he pays on some really awesome incomes..
Bottom line? Start reading all 22,000 pages of the tax code and then start reading the court rulings that are many more volumes on top of that. At a certain income level taxes are for the other guys to pay. #mainly the middle class)
Frenchy, Frenchy, Frenchy. In the ilustrious words of Renaldus "Now there you go again!". I think its swell Warren pays extra. Its out of the goodness of his heart. I also appreciate your 3rd generation weathly friends ability to avoid taxes. Just what does that have to do with me or how much I have to pay .vs. Bill gates .vs. anybody else? Saying we should tax the wealthy plays great to the populas but in reality there is not enough of them to go after to pay for what we are now spending!!!!!!!!!!!
People at the bottom not only don't pay any taxes but have had the government use the tax code as a wealth redistribution system. I mean you don't pay any income taxes and you get a check back at the end of the year! What a deal! Don't get me wrong, if below a poverty level I'm ok with zero, but to make mone on the deal seesh. Meanwhile we in the middle keep on a keepin on. To be honest I could go for a national sales tax (with the abolishment of the IT). That way you consume you pay! Don't tax any forms of production. Only tax at point of consumption. Your poor and don't use much, you don't pay much, but you still have some skin in the game. That would definately hit those evil rich you hate so much. Now, do I ever think that would come to pass, no so I'll keep on keepin on. I think I'll retire and go on cash basis and start gettin a check from the Gov't! Thank you and praise obamma!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BTW at what level do you call someone Rich? I'm curious about your interpretation.
The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
two points.. what the ubber rich avoid paying you have to make up for.. that or we could play the republican game of cutting taxes while increasing spending thus ensuring your grandchildren have plenty of debt.
In the meantime more money goes towards payment of interest.. Our infrastructure will get older and older. Some countries have been issueing warnings to thier tourists, don't drink American water and avoid American hospitals if possible.. (our hospitals have a far higher rate of medical infections than some other countries)..
How many times do I have to explain that I'm one of those so called rich?
I own a multi million dollar house living with the movers and shakers right on a lake. I own a bunch of collector cars and a big cabin cruiser.
So I don't hate the rich. I hate the rules that benefit the rich over the middle class.
It's our own fault.. the rich donate the money that gets politicians elected and so with this"access" they have, they get to help make the rules.. Both parties are equally guilty of this..
Frenchy, after a few years of reading your BS, I would not believe you if you said the sun was coming up in the morning.
You are probably still unemployed and living off the dole.
You don't own your house or property, you rent from the government that is stealing from others to feed you. if you don't believe me just miss a couple of tax bills.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Frenchy if you are so rich and feel sooooo guilty write a damn check to the fed govt and quit your complaining, but please keep your liberal hands out of my pockets!!!!!!!!!!!! I love how you libs are so free to spend others money! The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Bones if you could stop calling people names and look at cause and effect you'd see that this country is strongest when the wealth of the nation is spread the widest. Right now less than 2% of the nation controls 50% of the wealth..
You see the results.. the middle class is debt ridden and unable to strengthen the retail market enough so that we can buy our way out of debt.. As a result even the wealthy are losing a sizeable chunk of their wealth.. Many of my extremely wealthy and conservative neighbors tell me their net worth is down by 30-50% while a sizeable portion of them have lost even more due to poor timing or simple bad investments.
Look back at the 50's and 60's Inspite of extremely high tax rates America was a strong growing country whith a massive industrial base and able to give a large percentage of it's citizens a middle class life style..
Reduction of taxes while increasing government spending has resulted in a concentration of the nations wealth in too few hands.. As a result demand for refrigerators,, stoves, cars, boats, etc. is in the toilet and with them employment in those fields..
Bones if you could stop calling people names and look at cause and effect you'd see that this country is strongest when the wealth of the nation is spread the widest. Right now less than 2% of the nation controls 50% of the wealth..
Calling you a name, like LIBERAL? Why are you offended by it? Embrace it it's you. Don't be ashamed.
You see the results.. the middle class is debt ridden and unable to strengthen the retail market enough so that we can buy our way out of debt..
People choose to go into debt. No one forces it upon them. When young and starting out I made a couple mistakes acting as my own GC when building my second house. Went over budget on the constrcution loan and had to wrap up to convert to final mortgage or loose it all. So I grabbed the credit card and before I knew it, I was close to 20k in debt. I managed to crawl out of that hole after 5 years but it was painful. Learned my lesson and never again will I be a slave to the CC. Did I look for the government to help me, no. It was my falt I got myself in the mess I got out. So maybe people saving a bit is not bad.
As a result even the wealthy are losing a sizeable chunk of their wealth.
I thought that would make you feel good? I mean isn't that like stickin it to the man?
Many of my extremely wealthy and conservative neighbors tell me their net worth is down by 30-50% while a sizeable portion of them have lost even more due to poor timing or simple bad investments.
Ok, Stuff happens. People make bad decsions and loose money. I myself lost a chunk by not pulling out of the market in time last year. I did see the likelyhood of an obamma presidency and reacted in time to avoid a total melt down. I only lost 18% which by a lot of standards is not bad. I have about another 15 or so years earning power so I can take the down swing and recover.
Look back at the 50's and 60's Inspite of extremely high tax rates America was a strong growing country whith a massive industrial base and able to give a large percentage of it's citizens a middle class life style..
You can't really compare then to now. One, you need to look at the times and we had just come out of a war and were firing on all cylendars in the 50's and early 60's. Two technology had not happened so labor requirements were intense to produce anything. Regulations were no where near what we have today. Gov't expansion began to accelerate in the late 60's and the war on poverty and expansion of gov't programs. Third there was not a lot of competition in the mfg arena globally. Today its intense.
Reduction of taxes while increasing government spending has resulted in a concentration of the nations wealth in too few hands.. As a result demand for refrigerators,, stoves, cars, boats, etc. is in the toilet and with them employment in those fields..
Tell me how reducing the witholding of every working American would not put money back in the hands of individuals (at every level) quickly? It would require the Gov't to get by with less. How about that Frenchy? Not one budget is less than the previous. The Libs will never support that because then people would decide how to spend that money and thats just not right. You cannot continually take money from the producers and give it to the non producers and expect things to thrive and grow it will not happen. Things will stagnate as the producers reach egqulibrium with the non producers and decide why in the heck am I busing my butt for this and become one of the non producers. If you want to create jobs you need to get the govt out of the way, and put the capital in the hands of the entrepreneurs. You complain about the loss of good mfg jobs, how do you feel about the impact of cap and tax then?
The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Renaldus Magnus
Edited 7/15/2009 9:51 am by bones
No I'm not a liberal not in the true definition of being a liberal.. I'm a progressive. There are progressives in the republican party and some in the democratic party..
Being a liberal implies a losing of the rules.. Being a progressive implies anticipating future trends and getting a jump on them.. Instead of reacting to what has happened in the past.
Let me be clear.. Following WW2 conservatives built better and better battleships, progressives built aircraft carriers..
Battleships played no major part in WW2 while carriers were the most successful weapon sytem employed. Virtually every battleship that was sunk was sunk by planes from carriers!
Next
you are correct in that the middle class can choose to become endebted. However that is not the whole truth is it?
Access to credit is shoved down the throats by big banks because it is profitable for the banks. Yet allow a bank to get over extended and there are plenty of safety nets to bail them out.
I point out the great depression, the savings and loan scandle and most recently the credit default swaps.. They were all the result of deregulations..
Where in the constitution is it written that big and powerful cannot fail? While Joe six pack can be chewed apart by the big and powerful banking interest?
Again you seem to think that I want anybody rich or poor to fail.. sticking it to the man means sticking it to myself.. It is not about us versis them. it's about fairness and what is best for the country..
You are so wrong as to cause and effect. FDR's policies spread America's wealth from the top 10% to a new middle class.. that middle class is what funded America's war efforts and was instrumental in creating much of the post war wealth.. the middle class built housing for returning vets, shopping malls, etc..
In turn they bought washing machines, and a refrigerator, 2 cars and furniture..
America invested In America and became wealthy as a result.. In spite of high tax rates!
as we returned to the economic conditions of pre depressionwith more and more of the nations wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people we lost the incentive to invest in America and as a result out infrastructer is old and crumbling. Our roads are pockmarked and jammed. Poorly maintianed dykes fail and floods result..
The republican policy of tiny tax breaks for the middle class and massive tax breaks for the wealthy has resulkted in great debt which costs interest to support.. money spent on interest cannot go to fixing our roads, bridges, and schools.
Nor can it be spent on defence..
We must return to the policies that made America strong and powerful. It's not by giving the rich a free pass!
In fact that is plain Anti American!
We left europe with it's rulling by birthrite to establish a country based on merit!
Instead of inherited wealth and power we elected those we felt could best represent our needs..
We've given that up.. the politicain of today get the money to run his campaign by selling access to him.. If you contribute a million dollars that politican will return your phone call immediately and listen to what you say. Thus laws are written to benefit the ubber rich. We've managed to legalize bribery! (both parties)
(but only for the Ubber rich)
Yes the government needs to get by on less. they can too!
Republicans don't know that because every single one of them increases the national debt!
Here are some facts for you to chew on.. The source is white house.gov. during the Bush administration.
Post Vietnam Carter had the national debt down the most at 31% of the GDP
Reagan increased the debt to 78% of GDP as did Bush (on a side note that's why Bush was forced to go back on his promise of no new taxes.. {very couragous and the correct thing to do. I really Respect President Bush senior}
Clinton reduced it to 56% of GDP and well we know what Bush (jr) did. The last numbers won't be out untill Jan of next year but it is looking like around 150% or more of GDP.
To review
Carter 31% Reagan and Bush 78%
Clinton 56% Bush (jr) 150+%
I remind you these are republican numbers.
frenchy,
So I don't hate the rich.
I don't blame you, if I were in your shoes.
I say a fixed tax rate is the solution. Everyone pays, let's say 5% of their income. No loop holes, no dodges, simple.
A downside of this approach is that it eliminates jobs (think IRS) and is against conventional wisdom, that being to complicate thangs so it takes a Philadelphia lawyer to figger it out.
Ok government, ye got 5% of our money, now you figger out how to make it work.
Praying that management doesn't hit the Cafe button,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
A goodly portion the 22,000 pages of tax code is devoted to the question of how to define income. Got to do that before you take a percentage of it.
Then a few items of fairness quickly come up--like I had a salary of $100,000 but my hospital bills for my sick child were $125,000. Cut me a break?
Or, I sold 100 shares of XYZ stock at $75 a share. But I bought those shares for $100 each last year. So why do I have to pay tax on the $7,500 when I really lost money? Aren't capital gains and losses different?
Thus, item by item the complications just creep in. And, they become loopholes that require more and more detail to keep them from being complete breaches in the wall. For example, if the definition of capital gains isn't quite precise, with detailed rules to define capital assets, and holding periods, etc, I'd bet a whole bunch of folks could find a way to make their salaries as employees LOOK like capital gains. Again, more complexity.
see Steve that's the trick.. Let's look at just one small sentence in the tax code.. (I'm paraphrasing here) Any company which exports 1,350,000 litres of wine shall be exempt from inheritance taxes..
Turns out that only one company fits that description.. Christain Brothers winery. That simple sentence exempted them from some 8 million dollars in taxes.. They got that by donating a little over $800,000 dollars to politicians.
That's how the big boys play!
I'm not quite sure how a winery owned by a religious order (until sold to Heublein) is involved in inheritance taxes to begin with, but that's not really the point. Of course some pretty sketchy provisions get encorporated into a complex tax code. But I expect that in dollar terms, by far and away the biggests divergence from a simple flat tax come from various fairness or incentive issues that apply more broadly, coupled by the rules needed to keep those provisions confined to the targeted issue.
Edited 7/15/2009 10:36 am ET by SteveSchoene
"But I expect that in dollar terms, by far and away the biggests divergence from a simple flat tax come from various fairness or incentive issues that apply more broadly, coupled by the rules needed to keep those provisions confined to the targeted issue."Yeah, like the mortgage deduction. You'll never see any major change to tax code if there's a chance this goes away.
A flat tax seems like a good idea to me, but I think I heard the rate would have to be 18% to fund the fed govt with it's current spending.
18% on a pack of gum sounds OK, but 18% on a $20,000 car is $3,600 (before state sales tax), and 18% on a $200,000 house is $36,000. That will scare a lot of people away from supporting the flat tax.
Obviously one could augment the proposed flat rate tax, say reduce the tax on real estate (under certain conditions of course) to encourage homeownership or increase the tax on e.g. tobacco to encourage a health lifestyle.
The so-called flat tax has an appealing simplicity and on a superficial basis seems to be fair. Odd though that the rich are so enthusiastically in support of it while tax groups that look out for the middle-class find it to be a very unfair tax that disproportionately benefits the ultra-wealthy. The old Steve Forbes gang.Talk of taxes makes me realize once again that Conservatives are always talking about money while Liberals tend to focus on people. Not that Conservatives are good at dealing with money (witness our current financial crisis) but they seem obsessed by it. They seem to judge a person only by their economic status.
mms
18% is based on normal exemptions!
If you eliminate all deductions (including purchase for resale) the percentage drops drastically. Down to about 3%
The advantage of that approach is that it is visably fair.. There is a massive incentive to build here in one company (much more employment) and while there will be some taxes upon taxes when Items get to the retail customer the elimination of all other taxes will easily offset the slight increase in tax on an item..
Wow, a policy that would the make the only financially successful business structure large vertically integrated enterprise, the larger the better.
Could be there is a reason that the nations that do use a form of national sales tax for financing tend for that tax to be a value-added tax.
Why is it "visibly fair" for the poor to pay a much larger proportion of income for taxes than the rich?
If investments "including purchases for resale" are taxed what incentive is there for investment--such a tax structure may encourage "saving" but only the unproductive "under the mattress" kind.
The numbers cited are nonsensical, and non-comparable. You might reduce the "rate" to 3%, but on 3% of what--of transactions, not of income. But, you still need to generate a similar percentage of income as now--there is no magic. There is a good reason that Simon Kuznets, and others, devised the concept of National Income --GNP, GDP, etc, to avoid the nonsense of double counting the same value in transaction after transaction.
Actually comparing the "rates" is even more complicated than just adjusting numbers to income base versus transaction basis since the massive dislocations or reallocations in the real economy, both short and long term, would make it virtually impossible to estimate the effects.
Steve let me answer that somewhat in the order you asked it..
First vertially intergrated business is not a bad thing.. It would bring production (and with it jobs ) back to a country that is currently exporting them as fast as possible..
It would also provide a great stimulas to small companies capable of making a product and selling it.. To fully grasp the benefits of this read the Peter Principle and see how small compaines would have advantages that they've never had before..
I believe in social justice. That some of our citizens may have needs they cannot meet themselves. Home ownership or welfare for example. Why should the collection of taxes be the way to deal with the inequities of the system?
That only clouds the issue and makes taxes less transparent. Plus the poor are the least likely to figure things out..Why not if there is real social need issue checks or debit cards to those entitled?
How that would work is again simple based on your income if you qualify. You may get some or all of the taxes you pay back in the form of a credit on your debit card..
(perhaps even more than what you pay if the need is justified) That would bring clarity back into government!
As for exactly what that percentage is I cannot say. I feel that it would be an extremely modest percentage if absolutely everything sold paid a tax.. With 22,000 pages of definitions of exemptions etc. plus a virtual limitless amount of court cases and precidents. Many who can afford the cost of CPA's and Tax lawyers dedicated to their benefit can and do avoid their share of the tax burden.
Read What Warren Buffit has to say on the subject for just how easy it would be for him to evade all tax liablity.
To really work this would need some sort of bipartisian accounting of what is actaully being spent and the white house and congress need to agree to balance the budget or in the event of extreme circumstances such as the great depression or WW2 coming along borrow money to balance the budget with the idea that debts have to be paid and not simply rolled over and added to..
Well, whatever. There is just so much economic and financial system misinformation that there just isn't a place to start. But there is also a completely zero chance of such a program ever being enacted that it isn't much worth worrying about.
There may well be some real merit in value-added taxation, and in other real reforms of the tax code. Personally, I think a measure of progressivity enhances fairness based on "ability to pay" considerations. I suspect that any negative incentive impacts of progressivity are dramatically overstated. CEOs and entrepreneurs work to "succeed", not to increase their income by 25%, where success may be defined with money as one part of the score card but not necessarily as an absolute goal or even dominant goal.
Since it is particular true in the modern economy that "no man is an island", it is also true that everyones income earning capacity depends only partially on their own efforts or abilities. In addition to that is the endowment that each of us receives in various measures from society as a whole, which provides the infastructure that allows earnings to happen.
By the way it in German it is ûber or ueber--which contrasts nicely with unter (no umlaut) as in underclass. Personally, I think that class analysis has pretty limited utility in the modern developed world. But, "the rich" isn't a term for a class, merely a specification of wealth levels. You tax the rich but not as class warfare, but for the same reason Bonnie and Clyde robbed banks.
You may have a valid point about the ability to change the currant tax code.. However unless something is demanded by the citizens nothing will ever change.. Look at the handful of rabel rousers who incited America to seperate from The King..
Fundamentally systems which are not percieved as fair are doomed to fail.. the result is usually a bloody revolution. There is absolutely no way Americans, even those who benefit from the currant system, feel that the system is fair..
The time is right for a revolution. Let's make it a peaceful one by debating the merits of the currant system and merits of any system to replace it.. Once there appears to be universal agreement on a superior system that we can discuss in sound bits it will be able to be implimented..
You have hit upon the fundamental problem, perhaps inadvertently. Any major tax system that can be discussed in sound bites cannot be a superior system. The consequences of any major changes, even to a system that might ultimately be superior, could be catastrophic.
Asset values could be destroyed, the financial system collapsed, and a great many unintended consequences could occur. A small change in sub-prime lending markets nearly brought down the world economy, without unpresedentedly vigorous governmental responses. Economies can only tolerate evolution well--revolution is almost always a bad thing, particularly in any short run of several years or a decade. (By the way, the Industrial Revolution wasn't)
The relatively rapid opening of world markets to international trade has been a major challenge, even though it is very clear, and has been since David Ricardo wrote early in the 19th century, there are gains from trade, that economic welfare in trading countries is at least always possible to be increased as a result. Yet the issue can be heated politically even so. Rapid changes in tex policy don't have the same positive economic bias as opening free trade would have--it is likely to be MUCH more divisive politically.
I have to throw a cold pail of water on you guys.
In Canada we Have VAT = GST 5% were I live Provecincal sales tax 5%. Some exemptions on consumers and collectors ( all business). They have loads of cash and rebates to the lower income. Where i live is the lowest unemployment in North America and still growing. lots of construction going on lack of skilled trades. Public health care!!!!!! We are considredrd a right wing goverenment but compared to yours still pinko commi fags.We have free trade with US and Mexico but you still put up soft wood tariffs, fight the Canadaian Wheat Board after 10 World trade Association ruling against the law suits, Mad Cow and any other whim but you sure like our oil and naturel Gas.Your problem is since the great depression the NORTH AMERIACAN recovery plan was based on sound banking. over the years your lobbiests eroded that agreement and the Canadian system did not buckle to the big dollar lobby groups.
Next you are fighting a war on credit. Can't be done.
Canadian and British and other NATO troops have died fighting your oil wars, and you guys just don't get it. your quest for oil and rising profits have hit the ceiling.
Bang your their, now..You can not expect every year you must make an equal or better profit for the " Shareholders" It is unreasonable that you force every person to do better every year or risk there job. Well you hit the wall, you can only automate your phones, lay off staff and outsource till the bean counters say you are done. But the bean counters get paid you get a pink slip. am so glad Baby Bush is gone, thought he was almost going to grow a mustache and start goose stepping. Why are you flying unmanned drones over the 49th watching for no - good nicks trying to get into your country???? they are all coming here because it is easy to come to Canada and the welfare is better here.Your paranoia as the worlds big commander is now giving you a big wake(expensive) up call.Quit trying to keep big oil in business and save your selves.
Bring your troops home and quit trying to control the world, you economy will do fine.
well said but it is more fundamental than that.
Here on TV if it bleeds it leads in spite of the relative modest number of people affected.. IN Canada your news has talking heads who discuss and debate important subjects. You are better informed than we are and that's the whole key to why the military industrial complex can succeed here, why our tax laws are so badly skewed, and why our politicains can legally be bribed..
Your news programs have real news not dirtractions that earn quick ratings.
The only thing keeping Canada and Europe safe and free is America. We don't control the world we set it Free from Tyrants and Despot. You must remember Canada chose a dictator who was called King.
So the billions of Francs, Pounds, and Duestchmarks, spent in Europe didn't count? Remeber Europe was one of our defence companies best market for planes and equipment.. Germany in particular was well invested because they expected to be the front line of any WW3.
IN addition those nations provided America with bases, landing sites, and Ports to operate from.
It may be difficult to admit that other nations helped America defeat the Soviet Union but they certainly did. Totally ignoring Japans contribution to our goal.. (their contribution was massive too).
Too bad you don't know eneough about history to understand what really occured..
America received help,but we did the heavy lifting and continue to do so. Every one envies the top dog, friend and foe alike.
woodenhead,
You don't get it do you?
It costs a fortune to be top dog. It cost more lives and limbs and other appendages of brave military people to be a top dog..
Envy? I don't need it.. I'd rather be their friend than envied by them.. (it's safer and less expensive)
Would these men be your so called friends Kim Jong-il.- Joseph Stalin- Pol Pot of the killing fields-Mao Ze-dong. Adolf Hitler? Remember the words of i believe his name was Chamberlin Peace in Our Time. I cost the lives of 70 million men ,women and children.
Calm down and go take your meds.. then try again
King? Dictator ? never heard of them.You statement about America keeping the rest of the world safe and free, I'll agree to a point but you forget Canada's rule as a peace keeper role all over the world for many years.. Longer than you and I have been alive. When NATO wants soldiers who jumps in every time Canada.Who is your largest trading Partner? Canada.Our Prime Minster does not have veto power only the Senate. unlike the veto power of your president. We don't vote for a Prime Minister we vote for our local representative who then form a majority. Our opposition is more than 1 party. so there is a differeance of thought from all persectives as legislation is passed.We are allowed to openly critisize our goverments and not be labeled by the department of Homeland security as a risk. Remember your last dictaor said" if your not with us, you are against us" It's all black and white. No grey areas of which to problem solve.Your healthcare costs per person are higher than ours. How many of your people have lost their jobs and access to healthcare. do you measure your quality of life or just the quantity of cash?
Our President has veto power, but he doesn't have the same party discipline as a Prime Minister has until the government is close to toppling. American Presidents have lots of power, but also lots of constraints. Notice that the assertions of nearly unchecked power in the previous administration were soundly rejected, and not just by the election. The last year of the GWB administration was marked by an almost totally ineffective President due to the lost of public confidence, which while not as clear cut as a vote of no-confidence in a parliament, was as insidiously effective. The last President with "enemies list" mentality was forced to resign from office.
If you are not with us you are against us was directed (mainly) to foreign governments, one of the reasons why the coalition for the second Iraq war was so minimal. Hopefully, you are dealing with history not the coming reality.
I absolutely agree about the health care system in the US. We have dramatic rationing of health care--only it's not on any sort of rational basis, but based on income and employment status. Canada undoubtedly has less rationing, but even so, the health care lobby here wants to paint the Canadian healthcare system in the worst possible light as an example of what must be avoided. I'd bet for every supposed example of healthcare denied in Canada by government health care systems, one would find dozens of similarly egregious problems due to insurance company claims or coverage rejections, let alone the lack of care without insurance at all. Disgraceful.
Edited 7/17/2009 12:27 pm ET by SteveSchoene
Shoe,
Dang man, that hurts. All those points you made. And they've all got truth to them...guess that's why it hurts.
Zolton
If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
I say we completely sever all ties with each other and see who is better off in five years. Bet your northern paradise won’t be so rosy then.<!----><!----><!---->
NO America would be the worse off.. We get the majority of our oil from Canada, and they are our largest trading partner.
Canada closing off the border would be a real problem for America, not so much for Canada beause there are plenty of markets available for their oil but not so many markets for our cars and trucks.
There is a reason almost all Canadian oil comes to the States, cost of production. The tar sands are losing money below $65USD per bbl. There is no way to economically get it to a deep water port that can handle tankers so without the US market it would just stay there. So no, they need our market.
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<!----><!----><!---->US<!----><!----> <!---->GDP<!----> $13,860,000,000, Per capita $46,000
Canadian <!---->GDP<!----> $1,274,000,000, Per capita $38,200
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So who needs who?
You don't get it do you? Canada has been a grest friend and neighbor.. as for the tar sands, Canada could shut down export completely and simply wait for the market to get to a price they like..
The world is slowly running out of oil. We have to go to greater and greater lengths to get it. Deep ocean is the remaining untapped source of any decent quanity. The cost of extracting that will make the tar sands look positively free in comparison. look at the north sea for example much of the oil already has been extracted from there. While there remains some smaller pockets of oil along the northern coastline the difficulty of extracting it with Ice movement etc.. hasn't been figured out yet..
I’m in <!----><!----><!---->Canada<!----><!----> one week out of six (my part time consulting business) my opinions are a result of direct contact. I also live 40 miles from the border and see a lot of Canadians coming here to shop the big box stores and seek quality healthcare, (<!----><!---->Henry<!----> <!---->Ford<!----> <!---->Hospital<!----><!----> in <!----><!---->Detroit<!----><!----> does a brisk business in Canadian cardiac patients). How much time are you spending there?
Edited to add: There is no way they can “shut down” the tar sands, just think of the unemployment, lack of provincial and federal tax revenue and general disruption. That statement is just plain foolish.
Edited 7/18/2009 11:49 am ET by Napie
There is a low rate of unemployment in Canada, a fair number of Americans go up there for work.. (just like mexicans came to America a while back)
as for health care here in Minnesota we buy our percription drugs from Canada because they are so much cheaper and it's not unknown for Americans to get medical care north of the border either.
I guess it's the grass is greener..
America has more oil than the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the only thing preventing us from getting it is the Democratic Communist Party leader Barack Hussain Obama ll.
Look up the war of 1812 we kicked you butt. but let you retreat with grace.
Calling some one a commie don't have the sting of the McArthurthy arena and I don't know what empty your pocket means.Speak to the facts, lose the commie retoric, it is old and immature like your last pres. if you think he was so good go be his lawn boy. march the lockstep.I served with the Canadian Armed Forces. did you serve your country?Doubt it Armchair quarterback. Buy the way your 4 down football sucks. CFL has a longer field an 3 downs. cause your #### freedom players can't run as far and fast. Fascist
2 Battalion 4th Marines 3 Marine Division Sergent E5 Chu Lie, Viet Nam 1965- two bullet wounds would you like to see the scars? I served with Marines that were awarded the Medal of Honor the highest U.S. MILITARY DECORATION, IT IS BESTOWED ON A MEMBER OF THE UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES WHO DISTINGUISH HIM OR HERSELF CONSPICUOUSLY BY GALLANTRY AND INTREPIDITY AT THE RISK OF HIS (OR HER) LIFE ABOVE AND BEYOUD THE CALL OF DUTY WHILE ENGAGED IN ACTION AGAINST THE ENEMY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. UNFORTUNATELY FOR MY FELLOW MARINE IT WAS AWARED POSTHUMOUSLY, AND AS FAR AS FOOTBALL IT'S A CHILDS GAME.
Semper Fi and God Bless America
You are nuts! Why didn't your Furher, Bush (jr) get the oil out? Wasn't $130 a barrel enough? I mean he gave the oil company's a massive tax break so they saved that way.
You are pathetic,and have on understanding of the Constitution of the United States of America there are three co- equal branches of government EXECUTIVE, LEGISLATIVE AND JUDICIAL. Let me inform you corporation do not pay taxes only people who produce wealth that is goods and services pay taxes. You can't give tax breaks to a piece of paper that is what a corporation is. The oil companies in the U.S. make a profit of 9 to 15 cents on a gallon of refined gasoline the gov. makes 50 to 68 cents, who is the real thief.
And all of this has to do with woodworking? Take all of this stuff over to Myspace instead. Begorah!
I'd say this thread has developed over the last 100 posts or so to a point where the main protaganists might consider cooling down a bit. It seems to me that as the thread continues the messages get shriller and they are accompanied by decreasing civility.
The positions of those with opposing beliefs and points of view appear to remain as far apart as they were earlier. No-one seems to be persuading anyone to come around to their position. The thread is getting too close to containing only messages of the yah-boo-sucks variety, along with a tendency for those contributors still engaged to spit the dummy out of the pram; the value of that type of exchange doesn't have much to commend it. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Richard,
I agree. I'll close the discussion.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
You are right. If we cut off your oil and sold it to other markets. and the natural gas demand would drop and our prices would drop here. No wood for your mills to cut, no wheat, Metals of all sorts, fish, beef. did I mention uranium and your medical radio isotopes for medical purposes. and don't come up our new syncrotron Ha HA yup give it upwere I live our province has the lowest unemployment in the North American market. I see US contractors up here working. We still have a lack of skilled trades. people are building houses and business is booming.. We export more of our potash for fetilizer to China than anyone. we have more non us trading partners than most so the recession is not really hurting us. If you read any news lstley you would see that you guys are pulling out pipe made in Canada for your stimuless package. What about that lope sided in your favor North American Free Trade Act do? your protectionism killed you in the 30's you don't learn.Steve thank's for the insite full thoughts, you have a better grasp than most. I will never stand up and say our healthcare system is perfect. I worked as an RN for 18 years before burning out, I also am a trained orthopeadic shoemaker but due to rules and insurance and crap you can't make a living therefore I do renovations furniture etc.I have friends who work as Nurses in the US and also Orthopeadic folks and the conversation always turns to HMO's third party billing and taking more time to get approval than doing the work. Medicaid seems to be a royal PITA or gold mine depending on how well you can jump hoops.That said my MIL is 82 and just hit the hospital with many heath problems and dementia. She was caring for a 42 year old mentaly challenged child that works at a "sheltered workshop". the one brother has power of attorney and gambling the money away dispite warnings from laywers and Public Trustee.
So we have been scrambling trying to get her into long term care and the son living and keep working. But we don't have to worry about a big bill for care in the hospital. Her long term care is prorated against income. so that will keep her in good stead with late spouses pension and Canada Pension. We can always buy a top up insurance for max 500 a year and a lot of employers offer dental glasses etc.There are a few Private hospitals in Canada. if you got the bucks. Just for the record WCB pays the medical bills, Veteren Affairs pays there share and First Nation healthcare is funded from the Feds in a weird agreement.When it comes down to it. If I walk down the street and have a heart attack the first question is not "Who Is your Insurer" or leave. If I break my leg it gets fixed. So what is so bad with that? I lived through the Canadian Medical System change and if you want to get into it go ahead. I remeber when in 62 the Doc's all went on strike for a week , my dad said to me and my cousin wrestling on the floor " don't hurt your self this week" "no Doc's", I replied I don't care Mom's a Nurse.Just to clarify most Doc's are self employed and bill the gov or other agencies.Zolton always enjoy your posts and we don't got no possum but we do have 'Coons
Gee another Yankee with a global view!! go fiqure. I will not fault you grammer, spelling, the idea is what I want. I used to go to a Catholic school run by nun's. till grade 8 then Priests in high school I quit in grade 11 and went to the public school.Golly those chaste people are twisted.?><I am uber nothing but near broke. Or is that Stuper after a few grog?I like shellac, shellac is my friend. Like big wood. I like small wood mills. Call me a left wing socialist, pinko comie losser liberal. I don't care. I always consider the source. But my friends think I am a right wing hard core capitalist, but they never mind a low priced tile job. That's why I drive a 1989 chev truck. They drive an Acura and work at a G job
Oh just thought about WATER.
Google the Great lakes, Columbia watershed, Souris Valely and Devil's lake in North Dakota that want to dump there disease ridden water into the Red river/ Churchill system.But your NAFTA secured water right's from us and a percentage of oil extracted goes to you with no negotiation. You best be checking your facts instead of cleaning your Handgun while not woodworking.Post a oic of your last project. I did it's in the gallery "unusual garden bench"I got a free plan witch I still must reply to from, a left wing Brit took the unpaid time to measure and develop a set of plans for a nice old bench. With the help of an American (Larry) he sent the plans all over North America. Now there are these benches showing up all over the US and Canada. Should we all forward liesnce fee's to the Velosopede warrior. I don't think you would. I don't think he would expect it!!!! not all life is measrued in dollars. The internet and sites like this give us a forum to exchange ideas, plans, techniques.Do you think we should charge some one a fee for advise?It is free take it our leave it. I have never met Lataxe , Bob or ASK but I am sure if we ran into each other we would have a good time. How much does it cost in the States to have a good laugh with friends. Do you have to by insurance for it? incase some one had a grin wrinkle develop and sued you for it???????????????
Shoe,
Now tut tut with all the funnies. Quakers meeting's just begun.......
Careful or Uncle wil slap an enjoyment tax on us from reading your posts. By the by have you received the bill from the hospital? I had to have corrective jaw surgery from laughing at that dang fish pikshur ye posted.
I really don't know what all this border fussing is all about. Just last week our hometown volunteer fire department assisted the Beecher Falls Volunteer Fire Department with a house fire up in Hereford, QC. The BFVFD responds to calls from Hereford and have for many years.
Everyone up here is worried what's going to happen as the fire station is housed within the Ethan Allen factory that's closing soon. I believe one of the former management teams made sort of a pact with them so all should be ok. That team was very community oriented.
I cross the border almost daily from April/May thru Sept/Oct. every year and except for the rediculous passport requirement (more $$$ for Government) it almost seems like it isn't there. You folks are supposed to be our friends but we demand you have your passports to come down here.
Some friends, eh?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I have posted a number of pictures of my turnings thank you, not that your opinion is relevant to me.
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Seeing as though I was able to retire at 47 because I live in a great nation that rewards hard work I have plenty of time to both clean and shoot all my handguns, work wood, fish for walleye in Ontario, travel and just about any other thing I choose to do including a good time with my friends some of whom are even Canadian.
"Obsessed" is just a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated.
I then bow. you did good I have no problem with that.
risk/reward is ok with me, I have encountered so many as we would say in Romaian "Bunuttes". Slang for Just don't know.I have encountered to many Yanks that think we are an igloo nation and mouth breathers. Get's a little tired after a while. and am glad to hear you like the walleye. I live on a lake with lots of them and even channel cat's that have come up from the US via the Missuorie and Red River. am I upset NO!!See us guys can agree to disagree but the "blue suits" that made all that wierd passport ####
are the one's who divide us. I spent many summer's on Grand pa's farm 1 mile north of the North Dakota/Saskatchewan border, did many beer runs before we could by beer on a Sunday. The closest neibours were 1/2 mile away but on the south of the 49 th Parellel. My Grand mother was the go to midwife from 1912-1930 and the border didn't matter back then. They were all sod busters in a c##p farmland. now the border is filled with viberasion sensores and drone planes.I think we al the same ideals but it is how the person has to jump through the hoops of life.
You also failed to mention that Canada was fighting Germany over 2 years before America entered the war doing so while respection America's neutrality and in spite of the massive burden that put on Canada. That on the side of America on D Day it was Canada right next to America going ashore at Normandy.
Canada was part of the British Imperial Empire, and not America. Guess you did not have much of a choice. But this is not about America vs Canada it is about free people fighting against enemies foreign and domestic. And right now my enemies are the Democratic Communist Party leader Barack Hussein Obama ll who came out of the cesspool of Chicago politics. Give me the definition of ( Change we can believe in) he is a disciple of Soul Linsky Rules for Raticals.He took control of GM put his friend and big time political contributor $$$$$ in charge and gave the other half to corrupt union, might i say Hugo Chavez of Venezuela.
Hey!
Talk like that is what makes you sound so foolish..
Are you related to tailgunner Joe?
Empty your pockets and then tell me how much freedom you have, as to health care America has the best and a much higher standard of living. In this world might makes right like it or not and it is not going to change, check the history books. Job or not every one is treated if they get sick. A much more important point Obama is a Communist and wants to destroy Americas Constitution and our way of life. The Militia is made up of ordinary citizens and are getting new recruits every day,our founding fathers realized that government could be as dangerous to ones freedoms as any external enemy. New York Black Bear Militia join and save America.
Valid points all, however due to the poor state of education in this country, any change has to be discussed in sound bits. While the more thoughtful and intelligent among us can estimate and calculate the risk reward balance..
Why place tax collection at the top? The golden rule.. He who has the gold makes the rules.
We will never find a proper balance of education (the silver bullet), health care, military strength, business climate etc.. untill we start following Canada's (and much of the civilized worlds practice with regard to news.
In America there is one absolute rule on TV. If it bleeds it leads.. show some blanket draped corpse with blood around it and that will be the lead story for the day. That in spite of far more important items in the news.. That blood stained body might affect a relative handful of people but a decision to alter a tax rule which will affect everybody never gets mentioned let alone debated on TV..
That's not how Canada and the rest of the world do TV..
You think I'm nuts?
Look at Canada's gun death rate. Now look at America's
Why the differance? Well because if it bleeds it leads.. TV viewers are constantly reminded of death so they feel a great need to protect themselves (no matter their ability to use properly). Guns stop becoming an interesting hobby and assume priorities far beyond reality. Then because there are so many guns around and they are often poorly stored they are often targets for thieves who add more guns in the hands of criminals. And the circle goes on..
Canada on the other hand will debate such things with their talking heads. Will arrive at solutions which are intelligent rather than emotional.
It's extremely hard to become emotionally invested in tax policy or Governmental goals.. Those however are the important subjects! Not which sports team did what to who.. Or familes with short tempers shooting each other..
Steve,
That is the problem as I see it. 22,000 pages to define the tax code! That's absurd; no wonder. You get a paycheck from your employer, you pay 5%. A company is a person in my mind. Company makes a profit/income, it's taxed at 5%.
Downside of this is a lot of lawyers would probably be looking for new careers? Yeah I suppose that isn't fair either. But then again it seems that nothing is fair in the world. That in and of itself is a sad reflection on all of us. Used to be that two men agree, shake hands and they proceed with the agreement.
Here's one for you. I called Amazon as I wanted to purchase something. The gal asked for my credit card and I told her I don't have credit cards (Haven't had one in over 30 years either) and she told me they only take credit cards. I said, "If I send you a money order you can't accept it?" She said, "That's right, we only accept credit cards".
No sale.
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Tax rates aren't very complicated. The complexity in the tax code isn't about setting a bunch of complicated rates--that's perhaps a hundred pages I'd guess, maybe much less.
The rest is involved in defining taxable income, and that would have to be almost as complicated under a flat tax as under the current code. For a business example, what depreciation methods are allowed, and should they be different for taxes than for financial statements to be released to public owners of the companies--ie. shareholders. That's easy--how about setting proper transfer pricing among units in different countries. No one has the answer to that.
And, 5% is a total pipe dream, and it would have to be pure--straight from the poppy to make that seem realistic.
If we tax sales and not income then there is a great incentive to save. Plus we don't have to spend a massive amount of time filling out tax forms. Or defining what is income..
Every time something, anything is sold a tax is paid. The bank collects the funds daily and forwards it on to the government. On each bank deposit slip is a blank for sales tax collected. That's the sum total of paper work involved!
Better cash flow helps the government.
Social items like home ownership assitance is done in the reverse.. a check or debit card credit is issued by the government.
Tax collected this way would motivate companies to bring production back home.. They would pay less tax on a locally manufactured item than one they import completely..
Frenchy,
Would you stop with this "ubber rich" stuff? Are you trying to use the word "uber?" That's the one with an umlaut over the U.
Misspelling words does not lend credibility to your arguments. And you've, gratingly, used this "ubber rich" phrase several times...
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
NO!
I saw that word (spelled that way) on a televison program about 8-10 years ago and thought it was an apt discreption of what we are a talking about..
I am thus trying to define the differance between Americans who are well off and Americans who have had massive economic success.
It sort of reminds me of the apple farmers I know.. Growing apples isn't very profitable. Few apple growers make over $20,000 a year.
Yet to hear them talking so-and-so is rich because his tractor is 10 years newer than another's tractor and he may own a 6 year old pickup instead of a 15 year old pickup..
Americans in general are wealthy. I've a friend who teaches in a christain school and well you know how modestly they are paid.. He came over one day and announced that his modest income put him in the worlds 70% wealthiest people. My slightly less modest income put me in the worlds 88% wealthiest people..
While that seems like fantastic.. I realize that I'm probably one of the poorer people in my neighborhood. Too large a percentage of the people of the world make a few hundred dollars a year!
"Tax collected this way would motivate companies to bring production back home.. They would pay less tax on a locally manufactured item than one they import completely."That's a good point. Would the secondary sales market be taxed the same or just a primary sale?
You need to clear your mind completely of everything previous to see how this works..
IF I were to buy say Exxon I'd have to pay a tax of say 3% to own the company.. If I bought a few shares I pay a tax of 3%
In return we stop capitol gains tax, we stop income tax, etc..
When Exxon buys oil they pay a 3% tax, and when they refine the oil and sell it to distributors they collect a 3% tax (and pay it to the Fed) The local gas station is the one paying that 3% and the driver of a car that uses that gas pays another 3%
Nobody avoids paying a tax on anything they buy but they don't pay other federal taxes either..
Now I used the 3% just as an example let's assume that brought in too much money.. well we could lower the tax rate or if we spent more we would have to raise the tax rate.
It would be extremely easy to see who is being efficent and who is not.. Thus instead of a bunch of porkbarrels determining who gets reelected. politicians would be rewarded for saying no we can't afford that..
adjustable tax rates have been around since Lincoln. They serve a valid economic purpose.
That principle has been around since, well,... forever..
Royality in europe collected taxes and then used part of that to build roads, provide for the common defence, bring order to society, churches etc..
The problem was the life of the people was contolled by birth and not by merit.
When America declared it's independence from the control of their lives by birthright we became a meritocracy. People advanced based on their merit..
As long as that principle is firmly in place America will prosper. When it's legislated out like for example inheritance tax, we start to return to that which America was founded to get away from.
Access to the best schools is given to the children of wealthy parents due to legacy. attendance at the best schools ensures the best job oppertunities, living in wealthy communities ensures lower crime rates and thus a longer and safer life, wealthy communities also have the best medical facilities. futher insuring a long and healthy life.
Then to compound that with the wealth of previous generations passed down completely. We have gone from a system of merit to a fuedal system based on family wealth or birthrite again..
One final Nail into democracy is that the tax code as it's written is entirely for the benefit of the wealthy. It is extremely easy to minimize the tax exposure if your income is based on wealth and near impossible to evade taxes if your income is based on earnings.. Thus the taxes the wealthy evade are made up by the middle class.
Ensuring that birthrite determines wealth and power not merit..
Back to your flat tax,
I do support such a simplistic approach with a major twist!
Tax sales not income. Tax everything that is sold, from a stick of Bubble gum to a major company! No exemptions whatsoever! None. If I buy something for resale I pay taxes. When I sell it the purchaser pays sales tax. Local banks can act as agents for the IRS. On each deposit slip there is a block for national sales tax. Failure to declare properly brings down the full wrath of the federal government. No we don't have to fire IRS agents, we simply have them double checking that taxes are paid on every sale.
It helps in many ways. It's visably fair! Cash flow for the government improves, federal taxes without exemptions would be a relatively tiny amount, maybe adding a few pennies on the dollar.
I realize there are valid social goals, for example home ownership, that the government must engage in in order for a fair and just society to exist..
Instead of using the tax code to achieve those the government should simply write checks! (or even better issue debit cards)
Thus we can adjust rates and causes as they benefit our citizens and not simply because the program has inertia.
"If I had accepted my place in society when I was born, I'd still be receiving a welfare check blaming someone in Washington for my fate. It's pointless and silly."Bones, let me get this straight. Your parents were on welfare?
Ohh, that's going to leave a mark... `~<;^)-+-<
That boogie man has a name 0sama bin Laden the number was 3,000 Americans, can you name one of them? A picture is worth a thousand words or may be 3,000 Americans.
The difference between G.W.B. and B.H.O.( G.W.B. Kills Americas enemies B.H.O. Kisses them.) Remember what Obama's preacher said to him no no no not God Bless America God Da_ _ America and the chickens have come home to roost, the chickens were the 3,000 people that were slaughtered on 911.
Where is the picture of you in your KKK getup?
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
That white bed sheet is in your closet next to your SS uniform and the Iron Cross you were awarded by the Third Reich for helping to spread anti- Sematism and the hatred of black people.
Semper Fi
God Bless Amereica
Did your lobotomy leave much of a scar?
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Yes, I was working in Manhattan at the time, I can name some. I also have my picture on a visitors ID for the World Trade Center dated a few weeks prior--it's on my dresser--I can't pitch it. A colleague where I worked spoke to his brother on a high floor by phone in the interval between impact and building collapse. I understand the horror.
The World Trade Center bombing happened during the presidency of G.W.B. He used it as an excuse to kill even more Americans (4,319 to June 30, 2009) in a badly planned and unnecessary warfare while at the same time creating a new generation of fanatic enemies to the United States. Osama Bin Laden is still on the loose.
Unless we can begin the long process of defusing the hatred of peoples around the world we are doomed to continual conflict. Lowering tensions can only be done by talking to those who will, even if they are now our enemies. Talking is not the same as capitulation--to think so is extremely naive. Whether specific overtures or negotiations will bear fruit in the future is unknowable. But just refusing to come to the table can never achieve results even if it does provide provide political sound bites projecting an image of toughness to a segment of our domestic population given to jingoism. I don't know if current policies will succeed, but at least they have a chance.
THE JEWS OF WW2 THOUGHT THEY COULD TALK TO A MAN THEY CALLED THE FUHRER INSTEAD THEY WALKED INTO THE DEATH CAMPS WITH THEIR CHILDREN.I BELIEVE IN KILLING MY ENEMIES BEFORE THEY KILL ME AND MY FAMILY. UNFORTUNATELY PEOPLE THAT THINK LIKE YOU WILL HAVE THE WORLD REPEAT THAT MIGHTMARE, ARE YOU READY TO TAKE THAT WALK WITH YOUR FAMILY I AM NOT.
Sempre Fi and God Bless America
woodenhead, the problem with your position is that the definition of your enemy is so broad that you will never ever achieve "victory" until you've eliminated a billion people from the face of the planet. People like you like to talk a good talk with your chest puffed out, but you'd never actually follow through. The past eight years are a good example.
I suggest you actually read some history of the world in the years between the Wars and of the history of the Holocost. It's certainly possible to criticize the negotiations among the parties (but ethnic groups never really had any seat at a table, negotiations were among nation states) in the years that led up to the WWII, but the alternative was never "better kill my enemies first."
It might even be a good idea to consider whether totalitarian Germany was able to build it's military might earlier than the Democracies so that the choice might have been to be killed sooner than to buy time to be able to win WWII. This might well be called failure of leadership in not arming soon enough, but perhaps not failure of negotiations as a policy. "Way not" an easy issue to comprehend though, and certainly not within my strongest areas of competancy. But simplistic and fundamentally unconsidered slogans don't take us far to choosing the best foreign policy approach.
Well said Steve. A rational response to a discussion that is rapidly deteriorating..
Unfortunately, it will likely be lost in the fray.
ZoltonIf you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon
Probably not devastating to many, Bob. I live in a county in Metro Atlanta with over a million people. The un-employment rate is around 12% + at the moment in this county and for the state period. Foreclosures in Georgia have to be printed in the newspaper and that is done every Thursday in my county.
Every Thursday you can count on getting a local county paper about 5 times as thick as the other days because it averages around 80 pages of fine print fore-closures. So simply put... things are just catching up to your local area that have been happening for 1 1/2 years elsewhere. 200 people losing jobs is about average for my area per week and that has been going on for well over a year.
I can't find a part time job as the slots are all filled with young college grads who can't find employment and living at home... or many that have worked for a company for many years and are at this point desperate enough to take a part time job and hope for a better day tomorrow that may not come in time.
Edited 6/27/2009 11:04 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
Sarge,
Probably not devastating to many, Bob. I live in a county in Metro Atlanta with over a million people.
Rattlin 'ol peal heel, there's about that many people in the whole state, my county is just shy of 32,000, the nearest town (6.5 miles) has ~2,400 and Kidderville has 37, plus a skunk and one cranky old phart at the only convenience store.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That's about the population of my then farm county (38,000 1960 census) when I graduated HS in 1965. I only wish for 38,000 again but it won't happen unless I move elsewhere.
Regards to your friends who lost their jobs...
Sarge..
No doubt they will be replaced by Chinese ones. About a year and half ago I was working on a new EA store and stopped at another to check out some details. Took a look at the furniture too ......... was disapointed especially for the price and even more to see some of it made in China. We still have a EA harvest table in the family .......... almost 50 years old, well made. The new stuff doesn't seem to measure up.
"There can be no doubt that Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the abject worship of the state…Socialism is in its essence an attack not only on British enterprise, but upon the right of ordinary men and women to breathe freely without having a harsh, clammy, clumsy tyrannical hand clasped across their mouth and nostrils" -Winston Churchill
was disapointed especially for the price and even more to see some of it made in China
Even the furniture? I could understand the artsy decoration stuff but the furniture too?
I have several friends who worked there and it sure makes times even tougher now, in some cases both breadwinners worked there.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
In 1923 my newly married grandparents in Gilman, Vt. bought a bedroom suite from the Beecher Falls furniture shop-whatever it was called then. In fact, in addition to the full bed, they bought 2 vanities, two dressers, a nursery rocker, and a nightstand. All these pieces came painted a very nice grey enamel. My grandfather, a short man and one to do what he wanted, didn't like the height of the dressers, so he cut them off! The vanity legs and the mirror frames are still intact, really very nice turnings! Somewhere along the pieces were painted white. My parents inherited the suite in the early 50's when my grandmother passed away, and my mother stripped off the paint to expose beautiful yellow birch wood. Today my father uses the bed in his retirement apt., and my wife and I use the other pieces in our bedroom.
I was raised in Springfield, Vt., and spent summers at a camp on Maidstone. Gilman paper-is it operating, what about Groveton? The poverty rate up there is right up there with Appalachia and the Miss. Delta!
All this verbage is leading to this: the loss of 200 jobs in the Northeast Kingdom is absolutly devastating, especially with the taxes Vt. has. When the Gilman paper mill closed down here (St. Marys, Ga), 900 jobs were lost. Most of the workers have found new jobs- although the recent downturn has hit hard, like everywhere else.
As to Ethan Allen itself, I run a restoration business, and it has always been a pleasure to work on their old pieces. I cannot say the same for their newer pieces. Whether it is a question of peoples changing tastes, wages, R&D, greedy management, foreign competition, whatever, the factory furniture produced today in the U.S. is nothing compared to what it used to be.
Has the snow gone yet? Our sweet corn is gone, tomatoes about done, farmers on third hay cutting, birds hatching second brood.
Pete
"I was raised in Springfield, Vt."
I spend the first five years of my life in Springfield. My family lived a few house away from Shem Martin who was the chief of police.
Pete,
I was raised in Springfield, Vt., and spent summers at a camp on Maidstone. Gilman paper-is it operating, what about Groveton? The poverty rate up there is right up there with Appalachia and the Miss. Delta!
Not sure about Gilman paper but Groveton is gone as is Berlin and I hear Rumford, ME is in trouble also. Between wood prices, transportation costs and EPA requirements mills that still exist are on shoestring budgets and the noose keeps getting tighter.
This area has been what I call econimically depressed for many years and the Yankee penchant for penny pinching has reached an all time high lately. Doom and gloom in some cases is a step up - the dumpster diving industry is thriving!
Spent many days on Maidstone beach back in the late 50s and early 60s. My dad used to have his store picnic/outing there for several years. The beach was about the only sandy one around, most others were, well, MUD.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob..
A shame. Small towns can disappear when this happens. Especially when no other companies around that have jobs available or need the skills that the workers had that were laid-off.
All I can say is our first sofa was from Ethan Allen (Approximately 1964?). We had it for many years and re-upholstered several times. Yes, we were the type of parents that let the children and dogs jump and play on it. In fact we let the kids roller skate in the long hallway!
When we had it re-upholstered I always checked all the joints, springs, whatever. No part of the sofa frame ever came loose. Not one joint came loose and the wood was some kind of 'clear grained' hardwood. Hard like maple but a medium tan color. All the joints had no glue sticking out or even had glue stains. No nails or staples Etc.
First class construction in my opinion. We could not afford any more Ethan Allen furniture after the first child arrived. We were far from poor but we just bought junk after that. AND JUNK is JUNK.. MY Ethan Allen sofa was made 'first class'...
But just my opinion. I sure wish I could have afforded a house full of their products. I would think the workers were 'fist class' also!
EDIT: Frenchy said.. Lack of investment on the part of the owners.. I tend to agree but the company I was laid-off from invested and lost it all. No banker here but I think they did it when it was beyond recovery. I lost most of my retirement funds #and many others# by court order!
Life sucks sometimes but then again I worked for them for many years and my family always had food on the table and a bit extra to send them all to College!
EDIT: I sure hope I have not pissed ya off for some reason.. I like your spoken or was that typed? words!
Edited 6/29/2009 11:53 am by WillGeorge
Bob:
I don't think you seem to understand what a good thing this is. That's 200 more people who have been made poor, will now vote democrat, and beg our government to take more control over corporate America. The sooner the government runs all of our companies the less we need to fear losing our jobs.
gdblake
And let's not forget the flavor of the recent administration that created the need and started the trend of socializing risk...
gd,
You may be right.
Thanks for explaining and presenting an alternative thought. I will now sleep much better knowing that our government is taking care of all those poor executives who can't fly the corporate jet to Washington to beg for more money - at our expense.......
:-)
By the way, while you're on a roll could you offer another explanation: What has happened to good old fashioned supply and demand? Is Wall Street hording oil agin?
Stirring the pot but not a rabble-rouser,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
I'll derail this thread to get back to the original thoughts.. Ethan Allen. I'm no expert on EA, but have toured a now closed EA plant. I might be able to paint a picture for those who weren't so lucky.
About 75 years ago in Randolph Vermont there was a large furniture factory called Randolph Furniture. My Grandfather ran the production floor. My Great Grandfather was a "Master" there, and worked for his son. I own a set of twin beds from RF. Simple designs, good work. One day RF burned leaving many out of work, and a scar on the site that could still be seen the last time I was there. In 1959 a new factory was built on the other side of Main Street. It was Ethan Allen, and it put may woodworkers back to work. I visited the factory in about 1990. Got the grand tour by the man who now ran the factory floor. Nice fella. What I learned was that EA got all it's wood(at that time) from Maine in panel form. The panels had been planed/jointed/glued and sanded. All wood was maple with birdseye and curry woods removed before shipping to Vermont. Having this work done prior to shipping saved them a bundle on trucking $$. The factory was turning out mostly bedroom furniture from what I could see at the time. The equipment was quality older stuff. Great for a custom shop, but not production equipment. It was the type of tools I cut my teeth on 15 years earlier in a small 3 man shop. Workers were paid a base rate of around $8/hr with production incentives that could yield them up to about $11/hr when added to the base rate. The workers I talked to only knew a machine or two. They were not skilled on making a piece from start to finish. I can't say if the older tooling had an effect on the future of the site. But this EA site has been closed for a while now.
During my visit the Shop Forman gave me a metal stamped EA ash tray as a gift. It was dated 1979, and was handed out on the 20th anniversary of this EA site. (then 11 years old at the time of my visit) I have 2 maple EA pieces in my home that I've collected over the years. Nice stuff. Not custom, but solid. I've been to the local EA store in my area a couple of times in the last few years. Much of the work I've seen is a far cry from the old. A new blend one might call Ethan IKEA.
My heart goes out to those who have lost their jobs. Mine too has been at risk for about 10 years now. So far I've been lucky. I think there's many factors that brought us to this point, and enough blame so that we can all share a little. (been to Walmart lately?) Some can be blamed on progress. Ideas and companies can come and go like the weather. I'll just sit here with my pet rock and listen to my music on 8 track tapes. I don't want to be blamed for evolution of industry.
Oh man, there's an echo up here as your experiences and mine have much similarity. It's kind of interesting that the last successful management team there (Beecher Falls) was back in the 50s & 60s and since they left it has been steadily going down the toilet. I don't think it was a case of take the money and run but rather some ugly behind the scenes action - maybe a takeover, don't know for sure.
Suffice to say the rumor mill was/is doing landmark business.
A new blend one might call Ethan IKEA. Poignant, just poignant.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I hope for the best for all the EA folks that lost their livelyhood. Laid off a few months ago myself. I think EA's issues may be a number of things. Quality imho has declined plus I believe that some of the furniture is now made in China diminshes their reputation especially at their price point. Increased competition from overseas on both coasts. Ikea while not in the same "class" is seen as trendy by many while less expensive imports from the far east also hurt. Lack of investment in plant and facilities; I seldom agree with frenchy on much but he is correct on that point- Chinese plants are some of the most modern. Imports are tough competition price wise. About 2 1/2 years ago DW was shopping for a dining set. She found a couple she liked - both looked quite similar. One was a made in Quebec Canadel set, the other a Far East set for about the same price. The Far East set also included a china cabinet. Despite the extra cabinet we went with the Canadel set. Nicely made with solid ample well proportioned chairs and we got to chose the finish. We've been pleased. The chairs in the Far East set felt rickety and like they wouldn't hold up long term. I think if EA moved upmarket a little to a semi-custom market they'd be better served in the long run.
"There can be no doubt that Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the abject worship of the state…Socialism is in its essence an attack not only on British enterprise, but upon the right of ordinary men and women to breathe freely without having a harsh, clammy, clumsy tyrannical hand clasped across their mouth and nostrils" -Winston Churchill
jc,
I keep hearing about EA having their furniture made overseas (China?) but haven't seen anything in terms of fact. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not sniping at you, but has anyone seen factual evidence of this?
To me this business of offshoring production/manufacturing has a relatively short history but has been going on for well over 50 years. The thing I liked about the old EA furniture was the quality of the stock and a lot of the pieces didn't really look like it was all made on machines. You could actually see the wood thru the finish and I'm told the finish used to be hand rubbed.
Labor in this neck of the woods is still relatively inexpensive and plentiful. It seems to me that EA looked for cheaper (not necessarily inexpensive) ways to make furniture and covered it with finishes that hid all the sapwood. Not saying that sapwood is inferior but when I buy a solid cherry piece I don't expect to see any sapwood in it. I have unfinished solid cherry panels made at their factory and finding one with 75% (let alone 100%) heartwood is impossible, .
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Don't blame you for being skeptical. Here's a link to a PBS News Hour transcript of an 2005 interview with CEO Farooq Kathwari. http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/jan-june07/globalization_02-06.html In it he mentions "....chairs made in China" and "And we today have 40 percent of our products now coming from offshore,......." And here's another later (2007) interview from the NY Times with Kathwari. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/15/business/worldbusiness/15iht-wbspot16.1.6151733.html?_r=1 Saw it with my own eyes at the store. It's, for better or worse, a global company now.
"There can be no doubt that Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the abject worship of the state…Socialism is in its essence an attack not only on British enterprise, but upon the right of ordinary men and women to breathe freely without having a harsh, clammy, clumsy tyrannical hand clasped across their mouth and nostrils" -Winston Churchill
Edited 7/15/2009 8:10 am by jc21
Edited 7/15/2009 8:20 am by jc21
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