Riverprof,
Would you agree that too few tools and “cheap” tools make it difficult to become a craftsman?
Monte
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Replies
Riverprof,
A cheap pocketknife and a stone in skilled hands may produce fine carved work, but can it produce a dining table or a bookcase?
I respond because I am at a point in my woodworking that I no longer wish to be frustrated by inferior tools. I would rather purchase a quality tool (not necessarily expensive) and be convinced that my skill is the cause of the poor craftsmanship than to use the wrong tool (because the right tool is lacking) or an inferior tool and always wonder if the poor craftsmanship is due to the tool.
Monte
I feel that craftmanship is a skill, and that tools are an enabler to those skills. There are limitations to the work you can do with the tools, but I think the true limitations are your skills to use the tools you have. I think you could build a bookshelf with a pocket knife, it would just take a long time. Expensive/high quality tools will certainly allow faster, more efficent methods, maybe allow different joint structure, generally enhance your work, but it still comes down to the skill to use best what you have.
IMHO
Pedro
Hi all,
craftsman: a workman who practices a trade or handicraft
Have fun with it, Paul
Prof,
You have beaten this one to death in another thread - one containing much negativity; and of no use in the acquisition of woodworking skills (apart from the odd aside by Mel and Co). Even I am finding my customary good humour strained by your dogged seriousness, pontificating and bad manners.
Then there is the dank fog of distrust that you are creating with your questioning of everyone's motives. Personally my experience of Knots is completely different from yours.
I had faith, when I first came here, that the humans behind the avatars and nom-de-plumes were well-meaning and desirous of giving and seeking help. This faith has not been misplaced. Even you, when you're not whining and complaining, have been helpful. There is a huge amount of evidence for good intentions and helpfulness, with only a tiny amount of bad behaviour - unless you define "bad" to be "anything an oversensitive Prof dislikes".
In short, I have come to trust (based on the evidence) many of those who contribute to Knots advice-giving threads. I opine they are not here to merely boast, browbeat or otherwise indulge themselves in unpleasant behaviour towards others. Nor is this only my opinion. Many threads begin with words to the effect that, "I have already learned loads from just reading this forum and would like to ask...."
I wonder what you hope from this thread? If I was a motive-questioner, I might invent you a damning psychological profile, of the jaundiced-wild-guess variety that you yourself seem to favour. "Ah, he posts as a poor chap filled with envy and alienation from the better-off". However, this would be unjust since there is no unequivocal evidence for such a motive.
Perhaps you seek to persuade newbies that they might succeed without $20,000-worth of tools? Well, they will succeed, if they want to make cabinets, whatever the obstacles, economic or otherwise. They don't need you to protect them from "bad" advice from those who, for instance, know and recommend the joy of fine tools - as indeed the chap you sought to "protect" in that other windy thread proved, with his note to you there.
I hope this thread ends up containing something useful, I really do. Another one full of bad-tempered cynicism, motive-questioning and sulking would be....unfortunate.
Lataxe
I have already learned loads from just reading this forum and would like to ask if we can move on so I can learn more! The fact of the matter is, woodworking is becoming a forgotten art and it is the duty for the older and better (you) to pass along your knowledge to the younger and inexperienced (me). So, with that being said, teach and I will listen with open ears and respect.
Jeff
Then I would say, don't waste your time reading threads like this, and quit trying to shut the spigot off just because you are not interested. <G>There must be a 100 other concurrent threads, and when you're done with those, hit the archives for thousands more.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikkiwood,
I hope your post made you feel like a man. All I tried to do was to put a little humor into the thread. As far as I am concerned, you can go pound salt. I hate rude people like you.
How was that rude?Edit: if your piece had humor, I'm afraid it went right over my head.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Edited 1/30/2007 5:37 pm by nikkiwood
nikki,
I tried to put humor into it by quoting another poster about rookies asking qustions and getting pushed along. Maybe an apology is in order to you. The problem I have is that I enjoy trying to help on this forum and it never seems to get any positive responses. Maybe I'm just too young or nieve to be here. The whole reason I am here is to try to make some friends to help me along. It's almost impossible for me to find younger people in my area that woodwork. I'm 34 and tried to join a local woodworkers club and all it was was about 25 "older" folks doing intarsia. Don't get me wrong, its looks challenging, but its just not my cup of tea. Just like yesterday, my wife sent me an email address about an auction this weekend that has a bunch of hand tools. I posted the address here in knots for folks to look at in case there was something there someone wanted and I could buy it for them, they could ship me the funds and everything would work out great. Then one poster says that was not very smart because he was going to go to the auction and tell all his friends. I don't know, maybe I should just move on and not try to communicate on Knots anymore. Maybe I take things to personal? Who knows?
Jeff
Oy vey ist mir!!! Next with the hair-pulling and eye-gouging?! Boys, boys, boys.
Any day that starts and ends with a pulse was a good day. The smell of saw dust makes it better. Enjoy.
One of the finest craftsman I have ever known worked in a small, modest basement shop http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/fea.asp?id=1252
I call the lust for new tools the "golfer's attitude." I could knock 3 strokes off my game with a new {putter, driver, balls, etc.} They should realize that sooner or later, it's going to be practice and technique that improves their game, not spending more money on clubs. I have never golfed, but it's apparent to me when I see a professional driving the ball vs. a celebrity.
"Expensive Tools Do Not a Craftsman Make"
That's the title of a January 1980 article in FWW magazine. It's also an attitude, and an ethic, that I have always associated with FWW, and not with other woodworking magazines (or sites).
It's more of a truism than attitude, ethic, or anything else. I could have the most expensive and technologically superior set of golf clubs available and it wouldn't make me Tiger Woods. I might shave a few strokes off my round, but a 98 is not much better than 101. Similarly, high quality tools (no matter the actual cost - and cost and quality are not always coextensive) will make even an amateeur just a tad better, and certainly poor quality tools will make a poor woodworker struggle and achieve much poorer results. Conversely, an expert may well be able to succeed with poor tools - returning to the golf analogy, do you remember the scene in Tin Cup where Costner plays with a bag of gardening tools?
But I would reiterate that I think you get off the track when you try to equate expense with quality. I have relatively inexpensive vintage chisels and planes that are of very high quality. I have a Rigid drill press that was an exceptional value for the money. I have a contractor's saw, instead of a cabinet saw, and I'm quite sure no one could tell a piece of 8/4 maple sawed on mine from one sawed on a 5 HP Uni - Delta- super - 66. I could go on, but i trust I've made my point.
My tip for you. Prof: Focus on quality in your tools and your work, you'll never go wrong. Any other metrics, like price, are poor indirect substitutes for talking about the same thing.
Obviously we have someone who likes to stir the pot. It doesn't really matter. Let's get back to woodworking.
Craftsmanship...
I think it's similar to learning a musical instrument. At the beginning, when you are learning the basics you do not want a cheap instrument that will impede development, but the best instrument is wasted. After the basics are down pat, you can appreciate the difference between a student instrument and a master instrument. Beyond that, the level of artistry you can achieve has more to do with what's in you than what you play with.
To a degree it's the same with woodworking. At the beginning you want solid reliable tools, hand or power. Cheaply made tools are not a good idea for anybody IMO. Once you understand what you are doing you can move up to better quality tool and appreciate the difference.
But Craftsmanship is about more than good tools, it's a measure of artistry and attention to detail that comes from practice and a critical eye that must develop over time, project after project, solving design problems and building technique.
Tools are just tools, it's what's between the ears and what flows through to the hands that counts.
David C
I like your music analogy. I was given at Esteban guitar purchased from the shopping network. I took it to a master guitar builder for setup. It is now a beautiful instrument. Now I'm looking at my ancient Craftsman tablesaw. There's hope.
I have gone the whole route from the simple to drooling over the big combination machines. I find I use more hand tools as time goes on and find simpler ways to work. I think the secret is in how clever you are.
Ho-Hum think I'll go where there isn't a Riverprof & where everyone isn't tied up with him. No I didn't read all of this thread just skimmed it & saw where it was going. No where.....
Good, better, best never let it rest until your good is better & your better best.
Edited 2/5/2007 3:49 pm by OB
Edited 2/5/2007 3:49 pm by OB
I am still mystified why someone bothers to respond to a thread topic that doesn't interest them. Isn't that a little like slowing down to take a good look at the wreck that just occurred on the highway, and then criticizing all the other gawkers for doing the same thing?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
Have you ever experienced a drill sergeant dropping the whole platoon for 50 pushups because 30% of the platoon screwed up, just to jar their attention back where it should be instead of allowing them to continue nit picking on about what one single person has been doing or saying. I really didn't think that we were a bunch of little old ladies with nothing better to do but gossip.
Re-read your quote.
Good, better, best never let it rest until your good is better & your better best.
Edited 2/5/2007 8:42 pm by OB
Edited 2/5/2007 8:54 pm by OB
Sorry, but your point eludes me.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Its ok to be a little old lady they are known to be a little slow to understand. Some are even deaf but we still love them anyway.
Good, better, best never let it rest until your good is better & your better best.
Edited 2/6/2007 1:04 am by OB
Your point still eludes me. Got anything against just saying what you mean to say?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Who cares? It's just a title of an article from 1980. It's past history. I'm sure that you can find the same thought in titles in all the WW magazines. If you don't like the editorial content of a magazine, then don't buy it. If you don't think that the people here are helpful, don't log on.
OK. From the content in your bio, you've been here for 30 days. If the information is wrong, then forgive me. I've been poking around here for a helluva lot longer than that. You should treat this site just like a pub, a bar, a drinking establishment. There are many out there, but only one or two that you really feel comfortable bellyin' up to the bar at. If you're not comfortable here, then "bottoms up", don't leave a tip, and shove off! No one will miss you. Just nod to the doorman on your way out.
Nothing worse than someone who show's up new to a joint, doesn't like the beer served on tap, pisses and moans that Budweiser should be served instead of Old Style, and starts ranting and raving about it in TWO different self created threads. If you think that all here are snobs, snotty, snobbish, whatever the @#$@#$, then go share your words of wisdom elsewhere.
Bartender, slide me down a cold mug of ale, please. None for my friend; he's leaving!
Jeff
Edited 1/30/2007 4:48 pm ET by JeffHeath
Mein Freund,
Nochmals durch Ihren Kommentaren bringen Sie mir zur Tränen lachen!!
Herr Ober!! Bitte, bringen Sie mir und meinem Freund je ein Maß Helles und auch zwei Ratzepützen!!
Für den Sau-Narren-Lehrstuhlinhaber, bitte bringen Sie ihm ein Glas Pinkeln-Wasser! Es geht ihm schlecht: diese Gedankengänge um zivilisierten Manieren der alten Schule sind ihm fremd.
Ein Prosit!
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 1/30/2007 5:54 pm by pzgren
Prosit, James, sehr witzig. Hat mich gefreut.
-Andy
Andy,
<<...sehr witzig. Hat mich gefreut. >>
;-)
_____
Und es freut mich immer, noch ein Deutschsprechender auf die <WW forums> kennenzulernen!!
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 1/30/2007 6:14 pm by pzgren
Jimmy, me-lad
LOL I appreciate your words of encouragement. Have a seat, and we'll empty the keg!
Jeff
Hey Jeff ,
Gee Ward you were a little rough on the Beaver , really don't hold back your thoughts on the water logged professor .
My guess is he is laid off of work or otherwise has too much time on his hands lately and too few store bought tools in his arsenal to actually make any impressive birdhouses , or to while away his time in a more constructive way .
When and what will the next thread be ? any bets ? or did teach sign off for good ?
gotta love ya Jeff
dusty
Dusty
My guess is that the water logged professor (of what, I don't know) is truly someone else we all know and love (ha!!!!) under yet another assumed alias. He joyfully enjoyed stirring the pot, and has a writing style extremely similar to other infamous knotheads that I am extremely convinced are all the same person..... However, since an accusation on my part could be met with banishment, I'll keep that particular opinion to myself. I just felt like I recognized his spoon from the other side of the bar.
Besides, he had nothing to add to the discussion, anyway.........
I didn't think I was THAT rough on him... I could be alot worse closer to last call.
With a wide grin,
Jeff
<<< He joyfully enjoyed stirring the pot, and has a writing style extremely similar to other infamous knotheads that I am extremely convinced are all the same person.....>>>Ya think????????I hadn't thought of that possibility, but one never knows.......<G>********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Jeff, I've thought for some time that we have had duplicates running around here. Perhaps Stepford Woodworkers would be the correct term.
Wow Professor!
Two days in a row!
Is there not enough excitement in your life? Do you have a case of cabin fever up there in Maine? Maybe global warming could bring some benefits to those in the frozen North, who are normally locked in at this time of year.
To use a deep sea fishing analogy, you're chumming up the calm waters of Knots into a veritable frenzy. Some quiet contemplation about the deeper nature of this hobby and its accoutrements is fine but enough already!
What will tomorrow bring? Maybe a discussion of Wittgenstein's philosophy of language as it applies to modern woodworking? An updated Tractatus?
Lignator omnia vincit!
Cordially,
Hastings
Hastings,
Riverprof has placed his tail betwixt his legs and blown town. Removed all his doggy poop as well from the Snotty thread. Glad I don't have children in his classes.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob:I didn't know you could do that, but then I checked messages that I had posted and saw the "delete" option. I go on the assumption that anything on the internet is pretty much there forever. It's nice to know that you can delete when the brain to finger connection goes walkabout.I am sorry the good professor couldn't take the heat of his own fire.Hastings
Riv,
You again!
As a freshman in college, I decided to make my girlfriend a blanket chest. I went to the local lumberyard and bought a bunch of spruce 1x 8's,(they cut 'em for me)and hauled them back to the dorm. Now I had literally not the first tool, but did have determination, and I'd made the acquaintance of the gent who did the maintenance work in the biology building, and had his permission to use the tools in the basement shop there. As he said, "there's the jointer, I've never been able to get it to cut a straight edge on a board, maybe you can. Of course, I couldn't. So I worked all the glue joints on the top, ends, front and back of that blanket chest with a piece of carbon paper, a sanding block, and sandpaper. That blanket chest is still together today, 36 years later.
Does that make me a craftsman? Not in my opinion. I was an ignoramus. What made me a craftsman was the experience and the teaching I absorbed in three shops along the way. The word craftsman, implies that there is some sort of craftiness involved with what the craftsman does. That, the "art and mysterie" that was referred to in the old apprenticeship documents, was passed from master to apprentice over a long period of time, usually seven years, duringwhich period the master was to see that he accumulated a "sett of tooles" suitable for the trade of a joiner.
Some of that knowledge is doubtless, what is a good enough sett of tooles? Then, as now there were different grades of tools available to the user. Some, usually advertised as "gents" tools, were made for the carriage trade more than for everyday users. That is, more for pretty than utility. And the Holtzapfel ornamental lathes were mainly used by the upper crust of Victorian society, as a hobbyist's playtoy.
But the real question is, what is it about costly tools that so rouses your ire? Is it envy, or a feeling that there must be some sort of wastefulness involved, like seeing a big SUV with only one occupant, going down the road? What's really behind these posts?...
Ray
<<< But the real question is, what is it about costly tools that so rouses your ire?>>As near as I can tell, you have made the prof's point with your story of the chest. With little more than guile and intelligence, you managed to make the chest in your story -- and best of all, it was clearly a good enough production that you still have it 36 years later. This poor prof is getting under the skin of some of my favorite people around here, even though I think his basic message is that anyone can do good work with a minimum of tools, and inexpensive ones at that. nikkiwood, a toolaholic********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I don't think that his basic message was that it is possible to do good work with a few, inexpensive tools --- we all agree with that, anyhow. His message was to exclude the recommendation of better tools. And to make offensive generalizations about people who spend more money than he does on tools. Both of his threads had the purpose of deriding those who had disagreed with him in previous threads.Anyhow, it seems he changed his login to "Toolish." We have a name-changer! He'll be back, in some form or other. We ignored the "do not feed" sign.
-Andy
I interpreted his message to be that expensive tools shouldn't be considered the only option. I don't think that the general tone of this page is that. On occasion, however, I have read messages that could be viewed this way. I have not seen the "tool gloats" here that are so common elsewhere. (I really hate those!)
I think he believes that our focus should be on what comes out of our shops, not what goes in. Truth be told, there are few posts in the gallery. (Intimidation may play a factor.) Again, the absence of tool gloats allows this shortage.
Edited 1/31/2007 12:56 pm ET by MattInPA
"I have not seen the "tool gloats" here that are so common elsewhere"
Hummmppff!
I've got a set of blue-handled Marples chisels I got from Grizzly 3-4 years ago. I'll gloat if I want!!!
;)
Rich
Edited 1/31/2007 12:59 pm ET by Rich14
Matt,
Re: "I think he believes that our focus should be on what comes out of our shops, not what goes in."There are reasons why people post questions about which plane to buy. Some don't have anyone nearby who knows enough to give advice. They look to the forums for reassurance, for multiple opinions. When I was looking for chisels, I read about AI online -- didn't even have to post the typical questions because searches revealed the discussions to have already existed. I ordered one and it was a great choice; am saving for some other sizes I will need for upcoming projects. I never would have this chisel if I hadn't read about it on the forum.I think that the gloats are also important for some people. They are really happy with a new tool (or finding an old one that is rare) that they want to share -- but there is no one at home who really understands. They share on a forum of fellows who appreciate with them.There are plenty of technique-oriented threads to search, too. I think that Riverprof was so allergic to posts about buying tools that he couldn't afford that even 5 threads out of 100 would have been too much for him.As for whether better tools make a better craftsman, I'm not even sure that the oft-stated frugal wisdom is entirely correct. There are a couple of techniques that I can pull of successfully with a relatively expensive tool that I have more trouble with when using lower quality tools. I know that someone with more skill than I have could make do with a $9 dovetail saw, but I am comfortable with the fact that I'm not as skilled -- I don't think of myself as a master, or an apprentice --- I am not part of that system! The way I see it, my skill will still improve over time but in the meantime I have less frustration, less wasted wood, and more completed tasks, which inspires me to further woodworking projects.
-Andy
Where in VT? We have a place up in the NE Kingdom, near lake Willoughby. I have visited a few shops in that area listed in the local brochures. There are some nice things being made up there.
I have a friend who teaches music, mostly piano and guitar. His guitar students are almost all in their early teens and many are much younger. He teaches mostly classical guitar, but also teaches blues and "rock" electric (and plays in a jazz trio and lead guitar in a rock band.)
His first meeting is always with the parents and the student together and the discussion of the cost/quality of the guitar is always held. It is almost a constant that parents expect to buy an inexpensive instrument. Their rationale is that, until it can be determined whether their child (usually son) has any "talent" they don't want to invest too much money. ("If he's any good, we can always get him a better guitar.")
My friend won't take the student if the parents won't buy an "excellent" instrument. He advises them that getting a poor (cheap) guitar will only be an exercise in frustration for a novice. Among musical instruments, nothing is worse than a bad guitar and the quality varies enormously in the low price range. He tells them a master can play anything, but a novice needs an instrument that plays well, or he will never get over the limitations of the guitar, never mind the learning curve of music itself. It's hard enough for a master to compensate for a warped neck or impossibly high strings. It's impossible for a beginner, and that's the end of that.
Besides, a cheap guitar will have no resale value. Every bit of the investment will be gone if the student has no desire or ability to learn music. A good instrument will retain most, if not all of its purchase price, should it need to be sold.
Fortunately, there are excellent guitars in the $500-1000 range. He discourages them from spening much more as the beginner does not have the ability to appreciate the difference between an excellent $500 instrument and a $5000 one. But over time he will, and eventually will be able to appreciate and utilize the subtle qulaities of a $10,000 model vs a $5000. But by then he also will be able to make the $500 guitar play beautifully, if not with the very slight "extra beauty" that the more expensive ones are able to achieve.
Over the years, the greatest mistakes I have made were to buy poor equipment. Fortunately I did very little of that, but there were hand tools and machines that simply were terrible. I have learned never again to buy a poor-quality (cheap) tool with the thought that it could be re-engineered or re-worked to perform better. Such is never the case. (That does not mean that all inexpensive tools are poor - nothing of the kind is true).
It is a natural consequence of a technical forum such as this that discussion drifts to the finest tools that are available. Such discussions almost never imply that the most expensive is the best and only way to go. But where does one learn of the "best" if not in a forum devoted to such thoughts?
On the other hand, this forum has promoted very inexpensive lines when those tools have performed well. In particular, the Grizzly line has been favorably treated in these discussions over the years as that group of tools has provided very good to excellent service at a very low price and has seen steady improvement and refinement. I know, because I have used and recommended several of their machines.
Rich
"My friend won't take the student if the parents won't buy an "excellent instrument."
Wow. I absolutely have to disagree with your music teacher friend on this one. I took up guitar (again) about 4 years ago. I bought a cheapo, $300 new, guitar that played nicely. I regularly attend workshops where other individuals in the classes, who have been "playing guitar" (which I translate into "owned a guitar") for three times as long as I have, and they can't play worth shinola. My playing is head & shoulders above theirs. Nevertheless, they own multi-thousand dollar, top of the line instruments. For some reason, they think, because they can afford a top-of-the-line, name brand guitar, they should be able to play just like Tony Rice. Interestingly, they always comment on my "killer" guitar -- as if the guitar is the key to the better sound I can produce. In one workshop I attended, one of the students lamented how he had the cheapest guitar in the room -- "only $1,200"! When he heard what I paid for mine, he was more than a bit taken aback.
What makes the difference in my playing vs. these other guys is that I practice at least an hour a day. They are stretching it if they spend an hour a week practicing. Same goes with woodworking. If the tools are servicable, and you use them enough, you'll get better -- a lot better than someone who buys the best tool on the planet and doesn't spend the time behind the wheel.
I now own a really nice, top-of-the-line, multi-thousand guitar that I bought because I admire the workmanship of the maker, and I got a great deal on it used. I rarely take it out of the box. I play the cheapo daily, and continue to improve. If my teachers had the attitude of your teacher, I would probably be playing, God forbid, a . . . banjo! Remind your music teacher friend of this potential, disasterous result if he continues with the enforcement of his policy. ; -)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
You completely missed the point. Practicing hours a day is a given. All other things being equal (they never really are, are they) the guy who practices 4 hours/day gets better a lot faster than the guy who practices 1 hour.
The point is, that in few other musical instruments does the student have to "fight" a significant mechanical problem. It's possible, but very unlikely. A clarinet with a sticking key is defective, period and gets fixed. A piano with a key that doesn't activate its hammer is defective. Keys on a piano are a standard size and distance apart.
These "constants" are not the case with guitars and significant mechanical problems are endemic in "cheap" guitars. A guitar with a warped neck is impossible to play. The action can never be set right until the neck is reset. And in a cheap guitar, the repair cost excedes the total price of the instrument. Intonation can never be corrected in a guitar with an improperly placed bridge. With a flat top guitar, if the bridge has not been placed correctly, a major repair is necessay. Cheap guitars have such problems frequently. But it's not too hard to get an "excellent (student) guitar (defined as being free of such imperfections) within the range I mentioned.
Rich
"You completely missed the point. Practicing hours a day is a given."
Nope. Point not missed. I agree a student needs a *servicable* instrument (tool), but not an excellent one. My $300 guitar is a fine example. It is set up properly and plays well. I don't need a $1,000+ Martin to play well and advance in skill. Heck, Doc Watson says he learned on a guitar "that fretted like a picket fence" and most musicians can only dream of approaching his skill on the instrument. I didn't need a L-N bench plane to learn to use a plane. Yeah, I have a few L-Ns now, but I learned with flea market tools that were *servicable*, not works of art. I still use 'em when the mood hits me and I defy anyone to tell apart the pieces that were made on my servicable tools vs. my "artsy-fartsy" tools.
And I'm afraid practicing is NOT a given. I suspect many think, at least subconciously, that an buying an expensive tool will somehow enable them to skip (or at least dramatically shorten) the practicing phase. That's what I disagree with -- the tendency to unjustly blame the tool instead of the tool user.
I think we are only disageeing on the meaning of terms here. I agree that a student needs a guitar that is playable and is properly set up. There are a lot of guitars in this range that are $250 or less that are not what I would call "excellent guitars". I also agree that a woodworker should work with tools that are sharp and properly tuned. That does not necessarily mean expensive, though, especially for hand tools.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Yes,
We are saying the same thing. You are getting hung up on my use of the term "excellent" guitar. Your term for the same instrument is "serviceable" guitar.
Any Martin guitar is far more than an excellent (serviceable) guitar. Martin guitars are superb guitars.
But all things are relative. I used to think that my 1952 Martin D18 was everything a guitar could be, especially in tonal qualities. Then I met a luthier in upcountry Maui, Steve Grimes, who makes flat top and arch top guitars. His instruments start at $5000 (and you'll wait 3 years for one).
"Steve, I said, dubious, "What makes your guitars worth that much?" He smiled and said, "Come up to the studio. Bring your Martin with you."
He handed me a newly-minted flat top. My first reaction was to be afraid of harming its french-polished surface. It was incredibly beautiful - my first exposure to french polished shellac. He assured me I had nothing to worry about and encouraged me to put it through its paces. The sound was so beautiful. The bass was so well defined, the highs so crystal clear and separated, it made my D18 sound like it was stuffed with a wool blanket. Oh yeah, the action was so easy, it felt like the strings played themselves.
Steve was an authorized Martin repair luthier. He reset the neck on my D18 which was warped and had been poorly set all its life! No that didn't improve the tone! But the action was better than it had ever been before.
Rich
Matt,
you completely missed the point. YOU NEED A $10,000 pre-War Martin! I sure would like one.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Which war? I passed through Nashville once and went to George Gruhn's shop. In the middle of the sales floor, he had a glass case on a stand with a pre- Civil War Martin in it. I'll take a 1920s 000-28, please. Or, an old D-28H.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I wasn't referring to any particular war. I was simply pointing out that any guitarist who is worth his strings, needs an expensive (and therefore excellent sounding) instrument. All seriousness aside. It is interesting that the best investments in musical instruments are often those on the more expensive side, not the cheapies. So look at buying a $15,000 instrument as "preparation for a nice retirement". Y'all have fun.
Mel
PS I bought my Gibson RB250 banjo brand new for $600 in 1975. It has appreciated nicely. Had I bought a $150 banjo at the time, it would be worth $10 now.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Yeah, the pricey ones are the ones people want and some are outrageously high now. I don't know if you have seen many Gibson Flying Vs but we had one at the music store- a 1958 Korina wood model. We cleaned it up, dressed the frets, resoldered everything and had a hard time getting $1500 in about '75. The sale manager has a book with all of the rare/valuable instruments that went through the store and the same guitar (tracked by serial number) sold for $46K in about '81 and $64K in '86. I bought a 1958 Fender Bassman amp in '79 (no cabinet or speakers but it sure sounds nice. I did buy the Tweed cabinet & speakers when they re-issued that model). Those are going for stupid money now. Japanese collectors went nuts in the late '70s and early '80s. The good news- there are still some deals to be had.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I'd argue against this guy's approach too -- at least when it comes to 12-13 year old kids, who by definition are "trying on" various interests and pursuits. If my kid came to me with an interest in learning the guitar, I would advocate buying a decent, serviceable, yet inexpensive instrument -- unless I had unlimited funds. If he caught fire, then you start plotting to put a top quality guitar in his hands. Also, I think woodworking and tool acquistion is an entirely different kettle of fish. Most come to it when they are mature and have a reasonable fund of resources. In this case I completely agree with your point about resale. If you buy quality stuff, and your interest wanes, you can usually dispose of it for a very good price. If the same is true (ie. resale value) about guitars, then I would be more inclined to agree with you --- assuming I had enough scratch handy to make the initial purchase.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Some people do not practice and it's obvious when they play. The ones who would rather just play than go through the repetition of practice improve, just a lot slower.Someone MAY get a lot better if they practice four hours a day vs someone who only puts in one hour. Bad practice habits waste a lot of time and if someone has specific goals, they can get more out of less time, especially if they have less time available to practice- then, they need to be more efficient. Someone who plays the same scales, arpeggios, chords and riffs may become good at those but if they don't find new things to work on, they'll hit a wall pretty soon.Bad instruments are a PITA but it's definitely possible to play them. They limit some of what can be done but the player just needs to work around the problem if they can't afford to have it repaired and they have the ability in the first place. Inexpensive beginner instruments are a lot better than they were when I worked at a music store and now that they're usually machine made, the accuracy and consistency is much improved. What (style/instrument) do you play?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Inexpensive beginner instruments are a lot better than they were when I worked at a music store and now that they're usually machine made, the accuracy and consistency is much improved."I've seen some inexpensive mandolins that were tweaked by music stores with much improved results -- really good instruments for beginners.
BTW there was a corrolate in hand planes some while back.
-Andy
I saw a ukelele with a pickup a few weeks ago that sells for $139 new. It's amazing- some of the new instruments are really good, and cheap. Still, there are a lot of good used ones out there, it's just a matter of being in the right place, at the right time. Tweaking can make or break them. I re-set a neck on a bowl-back mandolin about 25 years ago and it really sounded nice. I have been thinking about it more lately and I'm going to force the guy who bought it to let me have it. He doesn't even play it, just sets it on his mantle because he likes the way it looks. I hate that.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"What (style/instrument) do you play?" More accurately, what style/instrument do I play AT? Well, I've got my D18, a Martin 0-18 (no longer made), A Yamaha imitation strat, and several no-name classical models. I'm quite terrible, but every now and then, if I practice for a few days, and get in the groove, I got game.
Rich, you are hurting my feelings...
There is much more to clarinets than sticky keys (or the lack thereof).
I always recommended that my students start out with a quality student instrument instead of a top of the top of the line Herbert Wurlitzer clarinet (I doubt that Wurlitzer would sell a top of the line clarinet to a complete beginner).Why? High-end clarinets don't accelerate but rather slow down the learning curve. Without the necessary skills it is hard to handle a highly sophisticated instrument. High-end and even advanced clarinets are quite a bit more complicated than beginners instruments, ceratinly less sturdy and thus much easier to damage. It takes quite a bit a experience to understand the difference between use and abuse. Heck, it is hard enough to learn how to operate 18 keys with 9 (sic) fingers, not to mention all that coordination stuff, beathing, den Ansatz, or even getting any kind of sound out of a clarinet. If you don't know what the extra 2 to 4 keys of "better" clarinets are good for, you definitely don't need them. Eventually (and if you are one of the 10% or so of folks who reach that level) you will be able to appreciate the advantages of hand tuned precision, forged keys (as opposed to cast keys), superior linkages, better tuning, clearer sound, etc.We've been very successful in using Wurlitzer mouthpieces on average instruments (I guess that would be equivalent to using a quality aftermarket blade with a garden variety plane). Thinking about it, there even is a similarity between clarinets and bevel-up vs. bevel-down planes (i.e. Boehm vs. Oehler system... Makes me wonder what the woodworking equivalent of a Reform-Boehm clarinet would be). Chris
The guitar/tool link is absolute. A guitar is a tool, just like a hand plane or dovetail saw. To be any good, it takes a lot of practice for some, more or less for others. Some can kick azz with the cheapest POS in town and others can't make garbage with the best tools or instruments. Innate ability plays a huge part. "I now own a really nice, top-of-the-line,....."- what did you get? Acoustic, electric, solid/arch top/semi-hollow body?Don't pick on banjo unless you can play like Bela Fleck or some of the other greats, eh?The great guitar/bad player thing reminds me of hearing that Chet Atkins was playing a guitar in a music store and there were a few people listening near him. One guy said, "That guitar sounds pretty good". Chet set it on its stand and said, "How does it sound now?"
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"I now own a really nice, top-of-the-line,....."- what did you get? Acoustic, electric, solid/arch top/semi-hollow body?"
I am the proud owner of a really sweet Collings OM. The Martin mystique never grabbed me much -- I much prefer the smaller makers' work.
"Don't pick on banjo unless you can play like Bela Fleck or some of the other greats, eh?"
Bella rocks, as does Earl, Pete Seger, Jens Kruger and even Steve Martin. I love banjo, but I love to pick on 'em. (All in fun.)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
"but I love to pick on 'em."They are the accordion of stringed instruments.Did you ever notice the banjo Steve martin played on his albums? 1923 Gibson Florentine.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Re: "They are the accordion of stringed instruments."Highfigh,Humpf! I play button accordion AND openback banjo. Funny thing is, although these are oft maligned instruments, evidentally the specific varieties I play are not the object of derision. My button accordions are small, wooden, gorgeous cabinets, not glitzy, enormous, celluloid-coated belly-Buicks! And my banjo is simple in appearance, quiet, with a non-tinny sound. Specifically the accordions bring me a level of positive attention that is actually often uncomfortable for me! Perhaps I should begin hating them? ;)
-Andy
Personally, I can't think of many instruments I don't like. They make music, so they're good. Bad musicians are another story but I have heard the "what's the definition of gentleman?" used for banjo and accordion. My uncle and a really good friend played accordion, Baldoni accordions are/were made here (Evo just passed away) and I like the percussive sound of banjo. I have seen some gorgeous button boxes. Did you see the show on DIY with a tall, dark haired guy whose first name is Michael (last name is French) and his last name will hit me in about ten minutes? They showed him making his button boxes- very cool. If you don't come up with his last name, remind name and I'll find it.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Highfigh,Re: "Did you see the show on DIY with a tall, dark haired guy whose first name is Michael (last name is French) and his last name will hit me in about ten minutes? They showed him making his button boxes- very cool. If you don't come up with his last name, remind name and I'll find it."Wow -- I'd be very interested in that (since I am working on building button boxes). Do you remember, was he French-French, French Canadian, or Cajun? (I play accordions of all three origins -- my favorite is from Quebec). There are some very fine cabinetmakers turned accordion builders.
-Andy
He's Cajun, plays Zydeco and I'm sure you have seen him. Tall, dark hair, moustache, plays on Austin City Limits fairly often. Sorry, it was Marc Savoy and here's a link to the episodes on Handmade Music, on DIY Network:http://web.diynet.com/diy/web/searchResults/1,8092,3,FF.html?searchString=&searchType=EpisodeTopic&WeekNumber=&Show=DHMM%23Handmade+MusicLook for the 5 episodes on Cajun Accordion.Frailing or clawhammer?"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 2/1/2007 3:23 pm by highfigh
Highfigh,
Oh, I know Marc -- I owned one of his accordions. However as far as woodworking goes, there are far better ones out there. The corners on Marc's boxes are simple butt joints covered up in metal hardware; this expediates assembly but always nagged me.
He is an amazing musician though!
-Andy
Mike and Rich,You both are saying the same thing regarding beginner guitars. The only point of contention is whether or not $300 or $500 will get you a guitar that's good enough to start learning on.One thing that might have gotten missed: as far as I can tell, neither one of you has said if you are talking about an electric or acoustic guitars. I think that there are good beginner $300 electric guitars out there, but I'm hard pressed to think of a good acoustic beginner guitar for under $500.This reminds me of an old joke. A man goes up to a woman in a bar and says, "I'm a multibillionaire. Would you sleep with me for $10 million dollars?"The woman looks him over, decides he's not terrible looking, and says, "Sure."The man says, "How about sleeping with me for $25?"The woman gets mad, and screams, "What kind of woman do you think I am??!?!!"The man says, "I thought we already established that. Now we're just negotiating on price."
Wilburpan,
Re: "I think that there are good beginner $300 electric guitars out there, but I'm hard pressed to think of a good acoustic beginner guitar for under $500."I can think of one brand that I found to be a very reasonable beginner guitar 6 or 7 years ago; I don't know whether they've kept their quality up but "Seagull" offered features that beginners benefit from without fancy options that they don't need, for maybe $300-350. All of their guitars are made in North America (in Quebec, specifically), and all have solid tops. Good tuners. Some neck adjustment needed, but buy from a good dealer and they'll do that for you anyhow. Again, I can't vouch for their current quality but when I looked into them around Y2K they seemed pretty nice.
-Andy
"I think that there are good beginner $300 electric guitars out there, but I'm hard pressed to think of a good acoustic beginner guitar for under $500."
Well, I've had 3 Alverez guitars, all under $350 (new), that are GREAT beginner guitars. One I gave to a friend, one I gave to my son and one I play daily. They play as well as many high-dollar guitars and better than some. They are plywood,with solid tops, so the sound is just OK, but they fret like a dream, and I don't need stage quality sound for practicing. And, since they are plywood, they stay in tune better than the good 'uns! Heck, even their all-plywood models (that are even less expensive) play way better than most guitars you could buy 20 years ago. This is the golden age of guitars, for sure. I'd recommend them to any beginner, or even an advanced player looking for a nice "beater".
Bringing this discussion back to tools, a beginner with a limited budget can be well served by picking up an inexpensive flea market plane (or chisel, or saw, etc.) and putting it back into good working order, as would a beginning guitar player be well served by picking up an inexpensive (new or used) guitar and having it properly set up. The trick is being able to spot the bargain tool (or instrument) that can be salvaged.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Hi,I can relate to your guitar teacher's tome but I'd point out a couple of things, no ego involved.Your statement (or maybe a relay of the guitar teacher's) that
..."Fortunately, there are excellent guitars in the $500-1000 range"... isn't quite true. There are adequate and decent 'student' guitars in this price range, but very rarely an excellent guitar, an excellent STUDENT guitar, maybe, but you'd have to be really lucky and you'd have to clarify what you meant by student. If one has expressed an interest and wants to learn, then a cigar box ukelele is a fine, and if you listen to early blues guys, who fashioned themselves up a 'diddly-bo' you can appreciate how the expression supercedes the most expensive model syndrome. Robert Johnson didn't have an A-1 Ramirez (in the $10,000 range) but he is still a fantastic git-box man.A teacher should teach, as music exists more in the mind than the instrument. Beethoven was able to write the 9th while being all but deaf, and yet it is still a great piece of music.It IS true that a nice instrument is more in so many ways. I've had a few factory produced ply-tops in my day, and it was a revelation when I bought my first 'quality' hand made instrument. I've had a few lutes and a theorbo built since, and I appreciate every detail of the finesse of craftsmanship, some I bought and some I made myself. I'm quite sure that these fine instuments weren't bunged out on cheaper tools. RP had his point that a more expensive tool isn't necessarily the only option, however the intractable, officious and pompous way he expressed it certainly didn't win me over. I llke some of my pricey tools, and I more often reach for my fuller butt chisels (around $15 a set at HD) if I'm doing stuff around the house or other people's houses. A tool is a tool and each has is purpose. One tool I wouldn't keep in my box is RP.
nikki,
Me, guile, and intelligence? You flatter me. I'm still curious as to why he feels he must keep beating that dead horse.
Maybe we'll never know.
Ray
<< I'm still curious as to why he feels he must keep beating that dead horse >>It appears he's stopped, since he has apparently deleted all his posts in this thread. He has a sharp pair of elbows, but I have a high tolerance for contrarians, in the spirit of Tom Jefferson -- "I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical."********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
"he has apparently deleted all his posts in this thread."And on the other thread as well. He'll be back in some form.
-Andy
I wonder if He applied for the FWW Shop Powertool Giveaway ??? ;-)
What ever became of the total shop giveaway anyway ?
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Andy,""he has apparently deleted all his posts in this thread."
And on the other thread as well. He'll be back in some form. "This has been a sequence of strange threads, with strange occurrences. Somehow it made me think back to a poem that most of us read in High School, and it inspired me (if inspired me is the right word) to re-write the poem in commemoration of these occurrences. With apologies to William Blake, Here it is.
Enjoy.
MelTiger, tiger burning too bright,
In the threads upon this site.
What Earthly hand or tool,
Could have made this thread less cruel?What started fast
and burned too bright,
has disappeared
into the night.Let us write in terms more subtle,
allowing others a creative rebuttal.
With open minds and a happy heart
We can put up with responses that are off the chart.We know that there is room for all,
Even those who are myopic and small.
To trade ideas and a shop-learned trick,
With a message written quick.Each can be proud, and stand up tall
without implying that one size fits all.
Some Tigers like tools that cost a bunch,
Other Tigers buy tools instead of eating lunch.All of us Tigers have our own way.
Which works as long as SWMBO says it's OK.
With these differences, we all get along,
Because none of us is ever wrong!
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Well done.
With apologies to Robert Frost's "Fire and Ice":
Some say that wood's best tooled by hand,
Some say by power.
The shavings I make (so thin), smell grand,
So I side with those who work by hand.
But with all the bills I have to pay,
That electric power
Saves the day.
Alas, for me, no ivory tower.
Cheers,
Ray
Ray,
That settles it.
You and I are going to be involved in a poetry slam.
It could be the world's first Woodworking Poetry Slam! Since it is difficult to rhyme with "woodworker", maybe we ought to use the term "ebaniste". THink of the possibilities. Beast. Feast. Fleeced. Oh well, I am not going to quit my day job yet.
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Since it is difficult to rhyme with "woodworker", maybe we ought to use the term "ebaniste"
Lurker, shirker, smirker, incur, rancour for a start, but I think I like drinker best, eg.,
Being a poor and impatient woodworker,
he soon became a secret drinker.
or something like that, etc..
Just look up 'The Bridge Over the Silv'ry Tay' by William McGonagall for references to style awfulness and quality precedents.
Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 2/1/2007 3:16 am by SgianDubh
Richard,
With all of those rhymes for woodworker, I should be able to write a epic poem about seven generations of two familys that war over control of companies that supply woodworkers -- how about Lie Nielsen and Lee (Valley) families? This should transcend Beowulf!
My hat's off ta ya fer the help.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
You could perhaps incorporate lines like,
Tom Lie- Nielsen,
Had 'im in a half-nelson.
If you wish to work in the McGonagall idiom, you have make sure it's bad. Achingly awful rhymes, and extra words shoe-horned in, whether or not they fit.
Of course, I know nowt about poetry, poncy rhymes and flowery wording. I'll leave it to you to mangle the language suitably.
Go to it Mel. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Richard,
I thought "rancour" rhymed with wanker, not woodworker. Oh...same thing.
Ray
Mel,
I do not like to poetry slam.
That's not the kind of guy I am.
I will not slam you with a tool.
I do not slam, that is my rule.
I do not slam, not with a router.
Now don't be cross; don't be a pouter.
Ere feelings are hurt, and need be nursed,
We'd best stop now, before things get verse.
Ray
Ray,
OK, we'll give up on the WPS (Woodworking Poetry Slam). I am glad you gave me an out on that because I have another project starting up. I am getting together a group of local woodworking women who want to also be a singing group. I gave them the name -- "The Jointer Sisters". I have to take some of the songs of the McGuire Sisters and other groups and rewrite their lyrics with woodworking themes. That's going to take some time. I got some great ideas. "Hold that Tiger" becomes "Hold that Holtey". "Shoeshine Boy" becomes "Woodworking Toy". "Begin the Beguine" becomes "Begin the Planing" (Well, maybe I gotta work on that one.) Have a nice week,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
A friend used to sing, "Cherry is the wood, I used to scribe," to the tune of The Lettermen's "Cherish is the word I use, to describe," he said it was originally performed by Padauk Aspen (the way he said her name, it sounded a lot like Patty Duke-Astin.
Ray
Ray, you are definitely a dark horse. I wish to nominate you for a further award: you should be in the running for the post of the Poet Laureate. I am sure the Jolly Biscuiteer will give a character reference.Philip Marcou
I have a few questions about plane making materials. Should I PM you?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
By all means-use either method- classified information never leaves my lips (,)Philip Marcou
Philip,
More than just giving a reference to his excellent and forgiving character, I will worship at the alter of his muse and toss him pretty flowers the while.
I only draw the line at financial rewards and accolades of any kind, as I am saving up for this and that top class tool. Ray only needs a file and sometimes a rasp; but I require Marcous, Festools and other such implements. All donations c/o the ladywife please; and don't tell that Boss or that Richard, as they will sneer at me.
Lataxe, gawping open-mouthed and dewy-eyed at the talented Poets of Knots (don't forget Mel the Melifluous).
-- or Richard the Rancorous. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Sire, it is a known fact that as we speak here there are gentlemen in Pakistan who are churning out working AK47's using nowt but Anant hack saws, files and hammers, the work being held between their toes: this lends credence to a popular theory.
In the late seventies when I was a war-mongering youth I saw simialr efforts by certain gentlemen in darkest Africa, using similar tools, but strangely the results were fatal to the end user as those AK's often had the habit of firing backwards-which proves yet another popular theory.
So what are we to do when phillistines such as Richard the Rancorous and Boss the Belligerent are at the gates? Nowt, I believe, as they will never repent and are doomed to forever fiddle and fettle. Each man to his own, but one may have pity on those who insist on plying their craft without enjoying unique high quality tools such as are freely available nowadays-at most reasonable prices too, especially when considered in terms of labour hours an average cabinet maker would have to work in order to purchase them- cheaper in fact than the old days when a man needed something approaching the equivalent of a year's earnings to buy a Norris.( Possibly this last statement may not be concise, but not to worry, we can call on Ray the WellRead to confirm this).Philip Marcou
I think I'm going to need an oxygen supplement after reading that statement!
Breathless,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Yes indeed. Then there's this:
Why should anyone buy one of them high falutin' cabinets made by the likes of Richard, Boss or any of those fussy cabinetmakers, since everyone knows that Ikea stuff is just as good - as long as you don't mind fettling it, putting up with the poorly made or missing parts and having to look at the ugly thing?
Lataxe
Lataxe,This is a facile misunderstanding of the argument. Since you are clearly smart enough to know that, I will conclude that this is an intentional misunderstanding, a clear sophism, on your part.Rp
Prof, lighten up Old China.There is plenty of useful and informative stuff on this forum, so now and again things get balanced up with a sprinkling of twaddle. What argument? Boss is the only one with licence to argue.Philip Marcou
Prof,
Hee hee, yes I am a sophist and a terrible rhetorician to boot. Also I enjoy reflecting the stance of others, including posture, tone and the startling gyrations of their rationalising organ.
The problem is that there have been no arguments to address yet....only bald opinions aided and abetted by sneering and such. The formal logic (deductive and inductive) is mostly missing. Even "reason" is hard to come by, as is hard evidence.
However no more sneering for me, even of the reflective kind, as I might get Bergered. :-) Also, one would like you to stay and play, even if you are a bit of a serious cove who hits too hard, sometimes, for we girls.
So, I hope you won't go off with a hiss, a huff and a delete. Stay to offer more daft opinion - they were grim reading at first but now we know who you are (I mean your character) they have somehow improved. All in all you are stimulating; who could ask more?
Lataxe, your cyber-friend but not pupil.
'Ere, careful now , sophistry will attract a poor grade, not to mention use of the word "fussy" (;)
Am I correct in saying that there would be absolutely no hand tools involved in the construction of The Genuine Ikea Article-apart from the skillful use of rubber hammer to square things up?
I did observe in Germany how on certain days of the year folk threw out all their household junk for removal /free to anyone to pick up-it seemed to be mostly Ikea stuff.On the other hand some furniture shops there also stocked superb stuff-both mass produced and that made by the "fussies".
Philip Marcou
Philip,
"'Ere, careful now , sophistry will attract a poor grade, not to mention use of the word "fussy"'
It's back-to-the-class with the dunce cap on again for me, then. I am hoping to avoid the gym-slipper, though-but.
Lataxe, had-up for raspberrying at Authority (self-appointed) yet again.
philip,
Aw, shucks, (head down, toe scuffing at sawdust) it ain't nuthin'. I don't believe "poet laureate" fits the bill. Dark horse of doggerel, maybe.
Regards,
Ray
Ray,
For a thread that started out ugly, this one sure ended nicely.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ray,
I love it -- wonderful!
-Andy,
in Robert Frost country...
Edited 1/31/2007 7:58 pm ET by VTAndy
Andy,
Yes, in the same way that a hog walking on ice is wonderful.
Ray
You never cease to amaze me!
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
Kidderville, NH
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Amazing, in the same way that seeing a monkey write "Macbeth" would be amazing.
Ray
My neighbors kids dropped by recently, I was jointing several boards with a plane. They were curious, and asked what I was doing. I showed them by making several more passes.
They decided it "sounded really cool"
I set up another board and let them plane the edge with a number of different planes. They associated planing wood with different sounds, "like music". Do you think 5/4 cherry edge jointed with a Stanley 7 sounds like E flat.!! So tuning and using a plane means some thing different to some of us.Lets not do hammers.Ron
Remember the post in the "other" thread about someone being egocentric? Jeff made a good point about him being here since only Dec 29. The guy starts a thread the way he did and says that FWW isn't giving Him what HE wants and it takes 100 posts for Him to actually say what he wants. 30 years as a woodworker or not, being here for a month and he wants us to divine his thoughts, needs and interests? He should address FWW if they're not catering to his every wish, not us. My posts to him really didn't show how POd I was. Me, Me, Me, it's all about me!
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Maybe you should post a list of the tools you consider to be too pricey to recommend. After all we certainly would not want our advice to fall into the hands of someone like you and be the enabler of someone not capable of managing their money.
------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer (1891)
What is it that leads you to fear others can't handle theirs?
Your wish list of wood will not help us to avoid recommending tools that you consider too pricey.
------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer (1891)
If you look at Fine WoodWorking magazine, you'll notice that they don't do comparisons of high-end tools (bandsaws, jointers, planers, etc.). They do middle-priced to low-priced tools: Jet, Delta, Grizzly, etc.
I thought you said you'd been reading FWW for years? Your statment simply is not true. There are plenty of higher end tools in FWW reviews from Lamello bisquit jointers to festool jig saws to powermatic table saws and Laguna bandsaws. I think you're overreaching to try to make a point that cannot be made, at least not in this way.
Check out the review of shoulder planes in issue 171 page 42.
Maybe you missed the bandsaw review in issue 170 page 64 that included an Agazzani and a Laguna.
Sliding bevels reviewed in that same issue went from $4.50 to $80.00. Does a person of modest means buy an $80.00 sliding bevel?
This in 2 random issues pulled from the stack.
I don't believe I've ever heard anyone on this forum claim that expensive tools made them a craftsman.
------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Whoa, now my life is complete - extra credit from you. I hope I don't pee my pants I'm so excited.
So when you're wrong, it was just a test? You're always in control and may not be saying what you mean, but rather cleverly trying to elicit an interesting response through misdirection. Again - whoa. You're really deep and complex. I think I love you, professor.
Here's a test for you: tell me one interesting and original woodworking insight you've had recently as you were performing a challenging task or facing a tough problem on your current woodworking project.
I don't generally find you very interesting either. The MG is a whole nother kettle of fish. Can you post a pic of the piece in question?
------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-- Herbert Spencer (1891)
You just have one set of preference--unique to you, forged from your particular experiences and bounded by your particular economic situation. But every other individual has different preferences, out of other experiences and with different economic constraints. Each individual has his/her own axioms of desire. So what? Revel in the differences rather than attempting to convert the heathens. During most of my tool accumulation days I had more money than time, so buying high end tools was a reasonable way to get satisfaction from the hobby. With different economic constraints now, (depending how next week's interviews go) I view new tools through a different filter. The Roman's had it right: de gustibus non est disputantum "there is no accounting for taste" , despite what Stigler and Becker made of it.
Steve,
Enjoyed your use of Latin. Here are a few more that may serve you in the future.
Enjoy,
Mel"Corripe Cervisiam" (Seize the beer!) "Res melius evinissent cum Coca" (Things go better with Coke.) Vacca foeda. (Stupid cow.)Die dulci fruere. (Have a nice day.)Mihi ignosce. Cum homine de cane debeo congredi. (Excuse me. I've got to see a man about a dog.)Raptus regaliter. (Royally screwed.)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
This I found apropos to RP and his architect of his own misery complex.Silva novae capulum dabat exorante securi
Lignatore sui causa dolenda mali.
Nam simul huic datus est oleastri stipes ad usum,
Hoc instructa suum est orsa securis opus.
Qua silvam populans caedendo strennuus instat,
Arboreum truncans gnaviter omne nemus.
Fraxinus a quercu tum sic vicina monetur,
Fortibus haec animis damna ferenda soror:
Cogimur auctores quoniam nos esse fateri,
Nolle sit haec ergo non tolerare pudor.
In sese quicumque suos armaverit hostes,
Exitii causam moverit ipse sui.When the woodsman begged for a handle for his new axe, the woods gave it to him, the lamentable cause of their own undoing. For as soon as the branch of the wild olive tree was given to him to use, the axe was fitted out with the handle and began to do its work. The woodsman vigorously took his stand, devastating the woods by chopping with the axe, diligently felling the entire grove of trees. The near-by ash tree was then warned by the oak as follows: "Sister, these losses must be endured bravely, because we are compelled to admit that we are the cause of it; therefore, it would not be good manners to refuse to put up with this." Whoever arms his own enemies against himself sets in motion the cause of his destruction.
cbolton,
WOW. That was impressive. My three years of Latin from 1956-59 was not sufficient for me to be able to translate the great story. Glad you also posted the translation. That is quite a story. I will keep it for future reference and use.Thank you for posting it.
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Did you find it strange that both OAK and ASH are feminine in Latin? I've never thought of either as being a particularly feminine in gender.
After studying Latin, French and German, I have ceased to ask "why" a noun has a certain gender in any of the languages. I just accept and move on.After not having studied German since about 1962, I am currently translating "Das Kerbschnitzen" from German to English. It means "chip carving". It has about 160 pages and I am up to page 70. I try these things every once in a while, not because they are rational or efficient, but just for a different challenge. I have been researching the tools and techniques that chip carvers used on the fronts of buildings, rather than on the little boxes. I ran out of info in English, it is was German, Norwegian or nothing. And Norwegian is not in the cards for me. I run into the issue of the genders of nouns on each page, then I go on to the next. I was pleasantly surprised to find a few people posting Latin sentences. I enjoy James and his forays into German. I often come back to Italians in their language (which is also that of my grandparents). Language is fun. Glad to see the variety in Knots.Is it a safe bet that you learned Latin in Catholic high school? Or are you an ex-priest, who left to pursue his true love -- woodworking? :-) MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Son of an Anglican (Episcopalian) priest. He worked for the firm a number of years and was only recently called up to "Head Office".I've been fascinated with chip carving for a while, and terribly adroit yet. Our local cable TV station had an enthusiast who used to do a program every Saturday morning and it was some of the best TV going. Sort of like Roy Underhill but more specific.
I've had more success carving Gothic Roses in soundboards of instruments, lutes in particular although, I'm gearing up towards building a clavichord in the near future. I had a great teacher,when I was studying music, who said something along the lines of "microscopic details have implications and ramifications on the macroscopic picture, and that you're job as the interpreter, is to master, as best as you can, to work on your abiltiy to balance the two". That was a great lesson and one which could apply to any number of circumstances and as I'm doing a lot of woodworking these days, I try to keep it in the back of my mind, and sometimes, when necessary, more forefront.
You are well educated, interested in chip carving, a musician, and a maker of musical instruments. You are one interesting dude. I am glad to make your acquaintance. I hope you post some photos of your work. I look forward to exchanging messages with you in the future.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
So your woodworking insight was that you don't know how to make a part for the wooden frame of a 1940's sports car. Okay, not exactly what I had in mind (I was thinking more along the lines of something you learned/overcame from a recent experience at the bench), but no matter, we can work with it. I'm guessing that there is sufficient expertise on this board to tell you how the part was likely made and/or how you could successfully replicate it. It almost certainly won't be me, mind you, but the skilled and experienced are out there. This would be a topic for an interesting and productive thread (as opposed to some of your more recent efforts). And I'm guesing you'd like some input if this indeed your current project and you are stumped. Let's just hope the answer doesn't involve expensive tools. ;-)
I think he left. Someone's getting beat up behind the outhouse!
I can't believe I read this entire thread..............
Jeff
"Would you agree that too few tools and "cheap" tools make it difficult to become a craftsman?"
Depends on what you mean by "cheap".
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
I didn't see the style similarities the first time around.
I'd go back and read them again now, but alas, they're gone. <G>
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"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
All: My reasons for buying the best tools that I could afford as a beginner:
Duke
"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Can't fault that, especially point number five- why can't some folk understand that?Philip Marcou
Philip: Agreed. I think "guilt" is a prevalent theme in todays society and prevents enjoyment of much of what is available in relatively affluent cultures. The other side of that coin is those who overdo it; spending themselves into a hole where real necessities are pushed aside for instant gratification. The result is tool envy, a condition resolved only by robbing the cookie jar for another spokeshave/load of lumber/router bit. :)
Duke"... Buy the best and only cry once.........
A great violinist insists on playing with a great violin in order to fully express his talents, and a great orchestra is made up of 100 great instruments played by 100 great musicians. The better the equipment, the greater the range and depths of skills that a craftsman can display.
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