Hi, I want to do a lacewood project and have purchase some Bocote. Any comments on working it? do they chip /glue /finish well? Thank you
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Fair warning, I worked with Lacewood ONCE and got a BAD reaction to the dust, was like poison Ivy!!
I won't go near it again...course thats me, it may not bother you at all
Ed-
You too? The only time I used lacewood was to trim out the edges on a dining table.Stading at the TS ripping boards I started to sneeze like crazy. I ended up wearing a respirator and vacuuming constantly until I was done. I would bet allergic reactions don't happen in 100% of people, but wow.
As for milling it, I seem to remember it was a little less dense than oak (it is a kind of oak) and splintered out moderately. I had to use backer boards when mitering and cross cutting to keep the ends smooth.
That's just me though. I only used it that once, about 6 years ago.
Kevin
All,
My 2 cents worth is going to be the same as others. Lacewood (Queensland Silky Oak - grevillea sp.., just so I am more specific) has a bad reputation for causing allergic reaction and breathing problems.
Also blunts tools quickly.
But it's beautiful when done.
No experience with Bocote. Sorry.
Cheers,
Eddie
I want to do a lacewood project and have purchase some Bocote
Hmmm...this seems an odd way to proceed, but...
Lacewood is not an oak except in common name, and that only bec it has the large medullary rays that make the "fleck" figure that QS oak has. Like true oaks, much depends on how it is sawn; i have a whole bunch of flat-sawn lacewood that looks like nothing much at all except pinkish MDF--no grain to it to speak of FS. If you get incredibly quarter-sawn pieces with great fleck, oftentimes the ray will chip out, so when picking stock, you might want to back off a few degrees from perpendicular. In QS orientation, there's a big difference in hardness between the ray and the non-ray, so you must sand it with a hard surface pad to avoid a contoured surface.
Drilling, routing, planing (except for the rays), is a dream. I don't see it as like oak at all, because there is not any strong grain to pull a drill bit or to rive off with a router bit. It glues and finishes well with anything i throw at it.
I don't seem to have any reaction to it at all, however. (I need to keep my allergic fits in reserve for working with chechen.)
I got some bocote shorts at Myles Gilmer some time ago and just stared them a couple years until i concluded i can't hoard all the pretty wood and that they'll probably make more of it. It machines beautifully with little tear-out even with convoluted grain directions. I suggest poly glue or a slow-setting epoxy for joinery since it's kinda greezee. I've used several lacquer and oil finishes on it w/o any trouble.
And it sells like magic in any of my laminated items i include it in, even in small quantities.
Edited 8/7/2002 5:48:53 PM ET by SPLINTIE
Hi,
Follow on from splintie's comment - Silky Oak/Lacewood has good figure in quarter sawn (the 'lacewood' variety), otherwise just parallel growth rings.
Just to clarify my earlier post.
Eddie
Edited 8/7/2002 10:12:15 PM ET by eddie
Nice summary Splintie. Silky-oak and lacewood are common names for two closely related woods in the Proteaceae family. Despite their close relationship they are placed in two separate genera; One is Grevillea robusta, native to the more arid regions of Australia and the other is Cardwellia sublimis from Queensland. Although they are not related to poison ivy, the chemistry of these two woods contain very similar irritants. If a person has an unusually high sensitivity to the irritant, the symptoms are similar to those of poison ivy. It can be really nasty stuff, yet many wood workers seem to be able to tolerate it.
Bocote is a cut from woods in the genus Cordia. This is a tropical genus belonging to the Boraginaceae family native to most of Latin America. It produces a wide range of both bland and relatively unattractive construction timbers as well as several very attractive cabinet woods. The lumber trade breaks the Cordias into two basic categories; the hard, dark colored species, which include bocote, canalete and several other lesser known but often very nice woods...and a second group of softer, bland colored species which are not often exported. As for toxicity, some of the Cordias are pretty potent and there does seem to be a correlation between beauty and bad news, in that the highly pigmented species are typically the most toxic.
Jon,
I was going to put my 2 cents in here, but thought it was probably unnecessary technicality. Howevwr, since you raised the point..........
In fact, there are at least 5 different genera sold here (Queensland, Australia) as "Silky Oak" - all members of the Proteaceae, and all obviously similar enough that few can be bothered to distinguish, though it is worth it in a couple of instances. But the overwhelming majority of it is certainly Cardwellia - a large tree of the northern rainforests that was once very abundant. Grevillea robusta, or southern silky oak has not been a significant commercial species for many a year - this tree had limited distribution, and fell victim to the farmer's axe as well as the loggers' early on. There is a small trickle of it but commercial availability is very low. The wood is much paler and a bit softer than Cardwellia, and in my experience contains much more saponin than the others, but that is purely subjective, and chemical analysis of a representative sample may show I'm out to lunch, there. I've worked both woods extensively for years, with no problems. Interestingly enough, I lived in Nth America for a long time, and managed to come in contact with poison ivy enough to develop the 'usual' contact allergy response - so the allergens may be chemically related, but not closely enough to cross-react.
If I could ever figure out how to do attachments on this board, I'd post a couple of pictures of the woods, or finished items for you to compare....
Cheers, Ian W.
Ian, your points are well taken as to the numerous varies of lacewood...but then, Aussie taxonomy is truly a thing apart. Sometimes I think, if your botanists can find a leaf with a wormhole in it, they'll introduce it as a new species (just jerking your chain mate.) As for Grevillea robusta ( the southern silky-oak), I know your exports have just about dried up, but this is the species that has been selected for plantation use elsewhere in the world (because of its drought resistance) and it's still available on the international market. It's actually a relatively popular cultivar now here in our Southwestern states. Guess we're just getting even with you for all that Monterey pine (Pinus radiata) of ours that you grow down their. But alas, I'm sensitive to the lacewoods and can't claim much work experience with them...once was enough.
As for the allergens in lacewood vs poison ivy, they are chemically similar and produce similar symptoms, but I think you're right in that sensitivity to one doesn't necessarily transfer to the other. Although, there are instances in plant toxicity where this is true. For example, an allergy initiated by developing a sensitivity to teak often transfers to ipe (and vice versa), even on the first exposure. I'm no medic, but I understand this is one of the most poorly understood areas in medical science.
Edited 8/8/2002 8:16:15 PM ET by Jon Arno
Jon, as long as we are in the "Trees That Maim" category, i'm so grateful for your helping narrow my focus to chechen as an allergen. Maybe chechen is related to the above? It has some similar working properties to the bocote and other "rosewoods" with tight grain and waxy feel. I'm always on the lookout for a new wood to try, so i wonder if you know of any relatives of chechen that are similarly toxic or even unrelated ones with the same chemistry of which i might rather not end up storing another 150 BF?
Since i'm not a botanist, please talk down to me.
Splintie, chenchen isn't part of the crowd we're discussing on this thread, but it does relate to that other thread currently here on Knots regarding figs. Chenchen is a member of the genus Antiaris, which belongs to the Fig family; Moraceae. In fact it's sort of the poster boy for the noxious side of that family...But you can't take botanical kinship as a perfect correlation of potential toxicity. It is true that related species tend to have similar chemistry, because their separation (in the evolutionary sense) tends to be more recent...but there are too many exceptions to rely on kinship as the only guide.
For example, there is a species called cow-tree (Brosimum utile), native to northern South America that, like chenchen, belongs to the Moraceae. It also has a latex type sap, but rather than being toxic, cow-tree sap is so nutritious and chemically friendly that it is used as a substitute for mother's milk in situations when a mother can't nurse...There are literally scores of similar extremes in other families; Many of the woods in the Sapotaceae family are to some degree toxic and yet the latex sap of one of its members is (was) used for making chewing gum. Poison ivy belongs to the Anacardiaceae family, which also produces cashew nuts. In the Rose family, we have one species that produces a peach-like fruit where the pit (almond) is an important food...yet the pit of it's close relative, bitter almond is the best natural source of cyanide poison...
Examples like the above are so common that kinship is, at best, only an opening clue. Because some families tend to have more potent chemistry than others, it's a tip off that a species might deserve a closer look...but you still have to research it on a species by species basis. Problem is, the majority of species haven't yet been thoroughly analyzed and the subject is so complex that the experts are highly specialized; one researcher will be up to speed on the Moraceae, while another is the guru on Proteaceae, etc....and nobody but nobody knows it all.
Edited 8/11/2002 11:47:00 AM ET by Jon Arno
Thanks for all that, Jon. At this moment, heaven-on-a-stick looks to me like listening to you and Ian volley this topic.
Besides some folks being sensitive and some not, i worked some chechen into jewelry chest panels before i bought a bunch of it, but i don't remember a reaction. It may have been i just didn't use enough the first time to have a reaction, but it set me up for the second time in spades.
Splintie, it probably wasn't a case of just not using enough of the wood the first time, but rather the fact that it was your first exposure to it. A person usually does get away with the first exposure to an allergen, because it is that initial exposure that triggers the body to produce histamines to combat it. It's the next time your body runs into this particular allergen that the trouble begins...and it often gets worse with repeated exposures.
As for Ian, it's good to have him contributing...especially when an Australian wood is the topic. They do things so bassackwards down there you need a native guide to navigate the subject. He and I have exchanged e-mails in the past and he's the guy I'd go to for help on a question regarding woods in the Proteaceae family. Besides, not only does he know the topic in depth and first hand, he's fun to spar with...Typical Aussie; except for pouched varmints and poisonous plants, about the only thing he takes seriously is national pride. :o)
Hey, will you guys stop talkin 'bout me. Not fair when we're 14 hrs ahead, you catch me napping every time.
Actually, I just want to correct you a bit Jon - it's not all MY in-depth knowledge - I get a lot of info out of a very useful book called "Wood in Australia" by a bloke by the name of Keith Bootle. Have you got a copy in your library? It's a great little book, as direct and no-nonsense as its title. Unfortunately, it's now out of print, and Mr. Bootle is watching us from a higher place, so there probably won't be any new editions. Maybe I'll take the challenge when I retire from my day-job.
And Splintie, what Jon said about needing a couple of exposures is usually right, but occasionally you hit something you are sure you've never encountered before and it will set off a bomb in your immune system. This is supposed to be because you've actually met another allergen previously, that 'cross-reacts' with the new allergen. It takes a couple weeks after the initial exposure, on average, for your white-cells to crank out enough antibodies to an allergen to set you up for the first rash/sneezing fit or whatever your system decides it's going to do. After that, they crank it out more-or-less continuously, racking up the production-line at each subsequent exposure. Unless you're an asthmatic, or are one of those occasional folk who is likely to have severe and life-threatening consequences, the vast majority of allergic reactions fall into the 'damn nuisance' category. (Although feeding a tablesaw, with streaming nose and glasses fogging up as you sneeze for the nth time could have a very unpleasant & painful outcome!) Of the hundred plus woods I must have encountered, only a couple do that to me, and one, oddly enough is Green Ash from the eastern regions of Nth America. You could hardly get a more innocent-looking villain, could you? The usual recomendation is to don suitable breathing equipment, and that's often enough, but if you are one of the 'severe reactions' group, that may NOT be enough - unbelievably-minute amounts can trigger a very nasty situation, once your system is really loaded for bear. In that case, you can't trust barrier methods; total abstinance is the only safe way to go........
Cheers, IW
Ian, you sure had me fooled...I thought you really knew this stuff? Anyway, my modest friend, no I don't have Bootle's book. If you run across a used copy, I'd be very happy to reimburse you for it...even including the exorbitant shipping costs to have it sent up here to the civilized world.
OK, Jon - I'll keep an eye out for it, and certainly let you know if I get hold of one.
IW
Hi Ian,
I bought a piece of Aussie Lacewood on E-Bay. Don't know specifically what type, but would like to have your advice on finishing it. A friend originally from Adelaide just became a U.S. Citizen and I'd like to give him a US flag in a display case made from this board. The board isn't qs so not much in the way of rays, but I'd like to see some depth in the wood. Have you tried tung oil and poly on it?
Thanks,
Ken
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
Hi Ken,
Your question was addressed to another Ian, but I'll put my 2c-worth in, as another woodworker from the same state.
The answer depends a little on what particular wood you have - there are about 5 different species sold as "Silky Oak", as it's called here. The most common, and the one I've seen most in Nth America is Cardwellia spp. This is a pale brown, with quite prominent rayfleck, medium hard, course-grained, but finishes quite well. I've had good success with oil and wax or oil/poly mixes on Cardwellia. You say your wood has little in the way of rays, which makes me wonder if it's one of the other species - some are softer, more of a pinkish-brown colour, and the rays are quite a bit finer. I'm thinking particularly of southern Silky oak, alias Grevillea robusta, which has a much finer grain and can take fancier finishes like French polishing (you'll spend forever filling the pores of Cardwellia). In my experience, all of the silky oaks take most finishes ok - I've had some trouble with PVA glues, though. Sometimes they work fine, other times I've had complete glue failure after a few months - the glue residue is powdery and completely degraded. No idea why - probably extractives. Southern SO in particular is full of saponins, and can cause nasty dermatitis in people who are susceptible to that sort of thing, when working it, but it doesn't cause any problems in use.
Any help?
Cheers,
IW
Ken - I managed enough shoptime on the weekend to dig out some samples for you. Here are a couple of pics of the two most common "Silky Oaks" we use downunder. The pale stuff is Grevillea robusta ("Southern Silky oak") and the dark stuff is Cardwellia sp..
Apart from the rayfleck, there isn't much the two woods have in common. You should be able to see what I mean about the Cardwellia being much more coarse-grained. The flatsawn surface of the Grevillea is much finer and 'silkier'.
Cheers,
Ian
Thx Ian.
The bottom pic of the second picture looks very similar to what I have. I'll post a pic when i am done with the flag case.
Ken
Regards,
Ken
"Do as you would be done by." C.S. Lewis
about the only thing he takes seriously is national pride.
Obviously an imposter if beer is not involved. Or rugby.
Hello, Ian. I don't think we've met before, so i can plead ignorance if i take liberties with your pride. Or your seriousness!
Hmmm Jon, - not just OUR botanists! Taxonomists of every stipe are out to grab their moment of fame, and erect new genera on the basis of a few snippets of DNA, never mind a wormhole (you can actually see that!). Those of us who have to deal with name changes on what seems like a daily basis, these days, often moan about it, that's for sure.........
Interesting what you say about G. robusta being the one of choice, as it's the least attractive of the group IMO. But it certainly is drought tolerant - for a tree with very limited distribution, originally, (high-rainfall riverine rainforest) it is now planted as a street tree all over Aust., and you'll see it struggling along in dusty streets where the annual rainfall is less than 20" p.a. But give it a bit of soil and water and it does make some impressive growth. Two years ago, a friend and I cut some pretty nice boards out of a tree he planted himself in 1962. It had a trunk about 18 feet tall, and about 3 ft average diameter - and it had been chopped back numerous times because it was too close to his house - for which we eventually had to remove it.
As for the allergy bit, you're right about it being a very complicated area, and what applies to one genus or even species, may not apply to a close relative. In my day job I've been involved with (veterinary) toxicology quite a bit, and plant toxins of every kind are the most frustrating things to deal with because of their variability from place to place, year to year, and individual plant to individual plant - add to this the variation in susceptibility between species, breeds and even individuals of the same breeds, and you see why many people (esp. students) just throw up their hands and say "it's all too difficult!". And chemicals like saponins in woods are not allergens in their raw state - they actually bind to bits of your own tissue, creating "new" products that your immune system reacts to. You would expect that the same thing should happen in all people, but it certainly doesn't, any more than some folks (me!) explode into paroxysmal sneezing if they get within a bull's roar of the pre-formed allergens in Rye-grass pollen, while most folks wouldn't even know there is such a thing. But I can handle and work Lacewoods green/dry with nary a sniffle or even mild rash.
But where would we be without variability in this world? The same processes that cause problems are equally responsible for those variations in colour and grain we woodies pusue so avidly!
Cheers, IW
I've used it once for a parquet floor in Melbourne -- there must be regional differences between the Queensland and Victorian varieties because the finished floor was a golden colour -- nothing extraordinary to speak of. No reaction at all to the sanding dust, which is pretty fine.
Dave,
I recently did a project partially out of lacewood and it came out quite well. It seems to glue and sand well, but can be a bit splintery and may tend to tear out if not planed at a low angle. I had no problems with the dust, despite the fact that I sanded it quite a bit - I suppose it varies greatly from person to person. Another thing to keep in mind is that lacewood is on the soft side. On the Janka hardness scale (in which the numerical hardness value of the wood represents the number of pounds it takes to drive a .44" steel ball into the wood to half its depth), lacewood rates only 840, as compared to 1260 for red oak. Additionally, when I finished the piece with tung oil, the lacewood darkened drastically, from a light pink to a mid- to deep- reddish brown.
Good luck,
Tim
Browsing through this thread on 'lacewood', I find that you have provided the key to the resolution of a problem I have in a project I have going. For this I thank you.I have been using some silky oak I have sawn from a couple of lopped
lengths given to me about three years ago. It is going into an old
(read pre-war) umbrella stand to improve its functional value. The problem arises because I have not been able to find a stain that will
match the new timber elements rto the old.Your comment about the effects of using tung oil seems to be the key to
my dilema, and I will certainly hit the test panels in the new week.
I usually lurk in the FHB Breaktimers as concrete construction has been
my lot in the past.I will post results when they are completed.Thanks,Lapun.
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