Replies

1. 
   Metod | Jul 30, 2005 04:26am | #1

   Metaphoric,

   Just a suggestion: Write to Zinsser Company with a detailed difficulties that you have with their product. They might be willing/eager to help.

   Since you are experienced in "old ways" with the french polish, your question could be very focused. It could also be a boon to the company, maybe resulting in "updating" their instructions. Theirs is a recent product (I have no first hand knowledge of it). and I am sure that they wish it to be successful.

   Welcome to the Knots - and please let us know the outcome (either way).

   Best wishes,

   Metod

2. 
   Rich14 | Jul 30, 2005 05:01am | #2

   Metaphoric,

   Please describe your experiences with the Zinser product. As far as I'm aware it is simply a pre-mixed shellac with a proprietary solvent that prevents deterioration so that the shellac remains capable of hardening long after the typical 6 month shelf life.

   I always mix fresh shellac and use it up in a few days, so I've never felt the need for off-the-shelf mixtures.

   Rich

3. 
   jazzdogg | Jul 30, 2005 08:32am | #3

   Metaphoric,

   I've used straight shellac ( both pre-mixed and dissolved my own using flakes) for French polishing as well as Qualasole, but haven't Zinsser's the new product yet.

   I would be very interested in hearing the specifics of your experience if you'd be inclined to share them with us.

   Thanks - and welcome to Knots!

    

   -Jazzdogg-

   "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie

4. 
   omron | Jul 30, 2005 04:16pm | #4

   I had the same experience as you.  Have used the "old" method with good results.  Built some small boxes and thought i would try this new french polish stuff.  I had problems with the rag making ridges and hanging up and leaving marks in the corners.  I finally gave up on getting a good finish with this product and used pumice & rottenstone to rub out all the blemishes.

   I emailed zinsser and they just recommended I go to their web site and download their TDB (technical data bulletin) under the technical dept catagory and also their application bulletin under products then clear finishes.  Did that but the information was not much help. 

   I turned down some pepper grinders on the lathe and used this FP and had very good results.  Since I have half a can left I will try this product on some other items.  Maybe it just takes longer to get the hang of it.

   good luck.

   Ron

1. 
   Metaphoric | Jul 30, 2005 05:31pm | #6

   Well thanks, Ron.  I feel better.  I didn't realize your post was there when I wrote my last tome, but obviously we had similar experiences. 

   Zinsser is a good company with a range of good shellac products, and I don't think they're going to desert us on this one.  I looked at the bottle and didn't see a Made in China label anywhere, so maybe we have a chance.  Haven't called their customer service line yet, though. 

    

5. 
   Metaphoric | Jul 30, 2005 05:19pm | #5

   I intend to send this along to Zinsser in the next day or so, but wanted to consult the experts first.  It was Friday anyway, so I didn't expect Zinsser to reply before the first of the week in any case.

   First, I normally mix my own shellac flake to about a 2# solution for polishing, somewhat more concentrated for brushing.  I store the mix in a dark, cool place and it has a good long life.  I apply two coats with a pad and no oil, about an hour between coats, then sand very lightly to level.  Next I use one rubber of the main finish coat, with mineral oil as lube.  I build up the finish as much as necessary, some passes with pigment if needed, final coat of plain shellac, still with oil if needed.  Then spirit off by starting with an almost dry pad with shellac but no oil, reduce shellac in the pad until  it is almost all alcohol, then alcohol only for the final pass (or passes).   I virtually never "rub out" a finish with abrasives unless I really want to reduce the gloss, and I make new pads when and if I think the old ones are no longer usable.  I prefer to use a mature pad rather than break in a new one.  All this over a fairly short time, usually one or two passes a day, and spiriting off in no more than two days.  It's critical to get the oil removal phase right or there will be a white blush in the polish when you apply wax.  I try to work fast because I'm also a dealer and make my living from what I sell, not what I restore, but I have revisited pieces I polished many years ago and, if the owners took care of them and waxed them occasionally, the finishes have survived very well.  Most of the work I do is on English or French pieces with an older French polish finish, that I clean first and blend in my repairs.  I never strip down to the wood and sand, because the patina is everything in these things.  Most of this I have learned from English restorers and experimentation over 15-20 years.

   OK, probably not too exotic and most people seem to polish about the same way.  When I read about the Bulls Eye polish in the February, 2005 issue of FWW, reviewed by Ernie Conover, I saw a way to shorten or even eliminate the oil removal phase of traditional polishing.  It took a while to locate a local supplier of the product, but I did find a paint store that had one bottle available.  I didn't see any manufacturing or expiration date on it so I bought it ($15.95).   The piece I used it on is an English dial barometer from about 1830 with an old French polish (I tested it) finish that I cleaned and abraded very lightly with 0000 steel wool to level some old flaws, then coated twice with my own shellac per my usual practice, and after a day sanded lightly to level again.  No bare wood, no old finish exposed.  I made a new pad, saturated it with the Bulls Eye, and wrung it out  (is wrung a word?) to near dry.  I added back just a bit of Bulls Eye and started.  Immediately, the pad wouldn't slide properly.  The polish left the ridges you get when the mix is too thick, and I began to see strands of thread from the pad in the surface.  It also wouldn't dry properly for polishing purposes, and was actually tacky to the touch.  Remember, it had shellac under it that had dried for over a day.    I poured off some of the Bulls Eye and thinned it 25% with alcohol, again saturated and wrung out the pad, and then loaded the pad to the saturation I usually use.  Better sliding action now, but still with the ridges and still tacky.  I thinned another 25%, and got better results again, but still not to my satisfaction.  The drying action was better but still too slow.  Finally, I touched a drop of mineral oil to the pad and finally the stuff started to work in the way I'm accustomed to polishing.  At this point, I'm back to square one.  I'd have been better off to use my own shellac, and will probably have to sand the current surface lightly and go back to my old way.

   It is quite possible that I got an expired bottle of the product and that affected its composition, or I may also have gotten one that was mixed badly at the source.  And, much as I hate to admit it, I may have screwed up somewhere.  As I say, I intend to send this to Zinsser today or tomorrow to see if they have an answer, and I'll post that answer here.  In the mean time, I'd still like to hear from anyone else who has some experience with Bulls Eye French Polish.

    

       

    

    

    

1. 
   Rich14 | Jul 30, 2005 07:50pm | #7

   Metaphoric,Your experience with the Zinser product mirrors problems I have had with Qualasole (Behlen). I got a Material Safty Data Sheet once from Behlen's British Web site which actually listed the ingredients in their product:Ethanol 51-60%
   Ethyl Acetate 21-30%
   isopropanol 1-10%
   n-Propyl Acetate, Propyl Ester, Propyl Acetate 1-10%
   Methanol 1-10%
   Linseed Oil, Acid Refined 1-10%
   Nitrocellulose 1-10%
   Isobutyl Alcohol 1-10%
   1,2 Benzenedicarboxylic acid,di C8-10 br alkyl ester 1-10%It behaved as you described the Zinser mix - as though it were too thick. I could not control the ridges and other similar surface irregularities. And once they started, they just built up on themselves. I diluted it with their recommended solvent without much improvement. Then I tried a little mineral oil, and Voila!, just like ordinary french polish. But on a few small touch up jobs in a customer's home, it worked beautifully right out of the bottle.I didn't pursue the problem much, because I have all but abandoned laborious hand application in favor of spraying Acrylic CAB lacquer or nitrocellulose and hand rubbing later. I believe the final finish is indistinguisable from FP methods. (Lately I've been experimenting with waterborne lacquers and varnishes which I believe are going to make me abandon anything with traditional organic solvents. A final wipe of a solvent-only pad can't be applied to these, but the gloss finish after the last polishing abrasive - swirl remover - is gorgeous).Maybe the Zinser product is similar to Qualasole. In any case, you seem to be proving the point that others have also found. If you want to do FP, and you are proficient at it, the old way is the best and fastest way to do it.Rich

2. 
   forestgirl | Jul 31, 2005 08:28pm | #8

   "It is quite possible that I got an expired bottle "  Hmmmmmm, isn't this a pretty new product?  When they say 3 years shelf-life, I've found that they mean it.  A few weeks ago, I used some that was several months over that old, and it worked/dried just fine.

   Thanks for posting this, and persuing it with Zinnser.  I agree they'll probably come through, and look forward to hearing what they say.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

6. 
   Pondfish | Aug 01, 2005 04:41pm | #9

   My understanding of the Zinsser product comes from a Zinsser rep.  The Zinsser French polish product contains a solvent that acts like mineral oil in making the polish stick less, but that this oil is volatile and will flash off, making it less messy than the traditional approach to French polishing, and allowing more coats to be applied in less time (because of less time needed between coats).  This oil-like solvent component is the key component to the product that makes it a "French polish."

   I would think that thinning the Zinsser French polish with more alcohol is the wrong thing to do--you would be diluting the oil part, making the product more prone to sticking.  I would look first at how you are padding the shellac/polish on.  Having the proper applicator (aka tampon or rubber) is important, as is making sure the applicator is neither too wet nor too dry.

   When I pad straight shellac, I always stop when it starts to stick and I always get a mirror smooth finish.  Sticking is shellac's way of telling you to stop, not to try wiping even more on.  I would expect the same result with the French polish product, but I've been unable to get a can of it so far.

   Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
1. 
   Metaphoric | Aug 05, 2005 04:50pm | #10

   I sent an email to Zinsser's customer service address on their web site and the next day received a reply that consisted of two canned writeups on French polishing, one for general work and the other specifically for the Bulls Eye product.  Neither writeup addressed the specific problem I'm experiencing, the sticky pad/slow drying factors.  I'll be glad to forward both articles to anyone who wants a copy of them - I don't see any way to attach them to this message.  They're in Word format, .doc files.

   The Bulls Eye writeup, interestingly, described the spiriting off process as the final finishing phase, in place of oil removal in the traditional method.  They said "Even the most careful and consistent application methods can result in a finish that is not perfectly smooth, and will often have tiny streaks and minute ridges of shellac. Applying more Bulls Eye French Polish will not eliminate these imperfections and may even magnify them."  Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but it looks as if Zinsser actually expects the polisher to end up with pad marks and streaks.  That's not the way my usual polishing ends.  I get very close to the final texture and surface that I want, then start spiriting off the oil. 

   Well, back to the laboratory.  I'm going to start by making a new pad and soaking it with alcohol first, something I haven't had to do with my own 2# shellac mix.  The effect, of course, will be to start with a thinner shellac mix than you get right out of the bottle. As Paul said in his reply, this will also thin the lubricant, but that's where I started to get much better results in the first go-round.

   Some other companies sell pre-mixed French polishing products, I believe Liberon for one.  Has anyone had any experience with those?  Also, an English-trained cabinetmaker who does some work for me uses a polishing method he calls "oil-free", and uses a dab of Behlen's Qualasole padding finish on his shellac pad for lube.  Qualosole is, I think, a lacquer-based product, not shellac. 

      

1. 
   jazzdogg | Aug 05, 2005 07:14pm | #11

   "I don't see any way to attach them to this message.  They're in Word format, .doc files."

   Metaphoric,

   You can simply copy them (CNTRL C) from word and paste them (CNTRL V) directly into your Knots post; no need to attach. However, if you do want to attach a file, click on the "Attach Files" button, below, and follow the instructions.

   Metaphors be with you,

    -Jazzdogg-

   "Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie

2. 
   forestgirl | Aug 05, 2005 08:06pm | #12

   How big are the files? (kilobyte-wise)  You can send them to me and I'll put them where they can be linked to.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

7. 
   Metaphoric | Aug 05, 2005 09:01pm | #13

   Attached are the two Zinsser documents describing French polishing.