Replies

1. 
   jazzdogg | Jan 15, 2003 07:17am | #1

   Wally,

   I'm not sure what "artful" or "moderate volume" mean to you. To me, "artful" is almost synonymous with "well-executed", and moderate volume denotes the quantity of dovetail joints I can cut by hand in the time it would take to unpack, set up, perform test cuts, repack and put away a dovetail jig.

   With a few sharp, well-tuned, hand tools, some clamps, and a reasonably rigid clamping surface like a workbench, I can dovetail a number of drawer fronts in the time it would take to mess with a jig. And I don't have to listen to a wailing router or spend nearly as much time sweeping-up when I'm done.

   If I was going to make a production run of dovetailed drawer fronts, the time it would take to set up a router jig it would make sense, but I'd still have a lot of noise to contend with, and a lot of flying sawdust to muck up the shop - probably a worthwhile trade-off.

   BYW, what's your motivation for buying a dovetail jig?

   Jazzdogg

1. 
   wklemp | Jan 15, 2003 08:18am | #2

   Jazzdogg:

   I've done cabinet grade stuff as a hobby for years but in the last year have decided to move toward high-end furniture pieces instead.  I've figured out that I like working with good woods, elegant designs and exacting execution.  I did one piece (eight drawers) with hand-made through dovetails, following the Tage Frid (sp?) method, using Japanese chisels (scary sharp), Lie-Nielsen dovetail saw and solid beach (heavy) woodworker's bench.  I found the method to be haphazard-hazard and slow.  The only way I could get crisp tight joints was to saw well shy of the mark and hand chisel every edge, with a lot of test fitting along the way.  It struck me that the only way I was going to get an acceptable, repeatable result was with years of repetition and a lot of frustration in between.  Problem is, I don't do this full time, just occasionally, yet when I decide to do a piece, I want it to have pristine joinery...the first time!

   I would prefer to minimize router use for the same reason you cited, I hate the noise and mess, and I have limited patience for elaborate set-up.  I will opt for my cabinet scrapers and hand planes whenever possible and limit table, planer and jointer use to "roughing out" my materials.  With that said, I have a machining background and I like working with more precision than I was getting with the hand-made piece described above.  My hope was to find a method (i.e., Wood Rat or other) that was flexible enough to do variable spacing on a wide range of thicknesses and widths, do inlay joints, etc., yet be able to whip out 10 or 12 drawers and have them all look the same with tight clean joints.  Sounds like you would recommend that I tough it out using the hand method until I get the skill mastered.  I'm just not sure I'll be able to develop enough speed to keep my sanity.

   Perhaps I need to study another method for hand-made joints.  Any recommendations would be most welcome.

   Thanks,

   Wally

1. 
   BenchMarkPhil | Jan 15, 2003 10:23pm | #3

    The Woodrat will probably do what you want, for dovetails it’s main claim to fame is due to the use of solid HSS bits which allow for the hand-cut look.  Cutting dovetails isn’t too hard, it isn’t especially intuitive as say compared to the Keller jig.

    I have a write up on the LittleRat on my site, it is very much the same as the Larger WoodRat.  There is also a WoodRat forum.

    PMB

   http://benchmark.20m.com

1. 
   wklemp | Jan 16, 2003 07:47am | #4

   Really loved your site.  I just spent the last hour reading about half of the reviews.  In fact, you have identified (and solved) just about every gripe I have in my shop.  I got onto the Wood Rat track because I don't have a router table.  I have a Delta two-speed (very nice) shaper, but I use it probably 60% of the time with router bits and I am not very satisfied with the quality of cut. 

   I discussed this with a local cabinet shop owner and he said that I would never be satisfied without a router turning the bits at their higher designed rpm.  Since I also want a fool-proof way to get nearly-hand-made-looking dovetails, I thought the Wood Rat would be a decent surrogate for a router table.

   My concern with using the Wood Rat as a complete alternative to a conventional router table is that I like using a bearing-guided round over bit.  And, it doesn't look like you can free-hand items with the Wood Rat  My default setup for my shaper is a bearing guide round over router bit.  As I turn out various components, I can just step over to the shaper and get fast round overs on almost any shape (like the upper edges of an assembled drawer carcass, resting on the shaper table upside down).  The shaper does a poor job, however, due to its slow speed combined with a bit that was designed for a router. 

   Am I selling the Wood Rat's ability short, or should I think of it as primarily a dovetailing tool?  I just hate the thought of having it AND a router table in addition to my shaper.

   Any additional feedback would be greatly appreciated.  Once again, I really loved your site.

   Thanks,

   Wally

1. 
   BenchMarkPhil | Jan 17, 2003 01:36am | #8

   It is possible to use the WoodRat for the same tasks you would a traditional router table. That does not mean it is truly practical though. The WoodRat video shows the tool being used this way but a router in a table is so easy to setup and use it would always be my preference for typical edge profiling and related operations.

   I think of and use the WoodRat primarily as an overhead mill. It also lends itself to making finger joints and dovetails. Again in the dovetail area it is less intuitive to setup that a Leigh but it is designed to operate with the hand-cut sized cutters. I actually suspect you could use these cutters in the Leigh if adjusted properly but I haven’t tried it myself.

   Basically,

   1. If you want to use the WR instead of a traditional router table for edge profiles I think that would be a mistake.

   2. If you want variable spacing dovetails using a “hand-cut” proportioned cutter, it will do this well but there is a learning curve.

   3. If you want to use it for traditional M&T type work, it will do this quite well and it is very intuitive. You may have to build a jig or two for all the variations of this work.

   PMB

   http://benchmark.20m.com

2. 
   wklemp | Jan 17, 2003 02:10am | #9

   Great summary.  Thanks.

2. 
   noone51 | Jan 16, 2003 08:05am | #5

   Jazzdogg. Sorry, but you are so far off base it makes you sound silly. I use a Leigh D4 exclusively. It takes me a total of 20 minutes to bolt it down, set it up and run my test pieces. From there I can run all of my tails in one run and my pins on the next run. Its a simple matter of flipping it over and changing a bit. I'd be more than willing to race and run with you anytime. I'm not a gambler so theres no prize to win, just pride.

   By the way... Norm uses one... LOL... But.... 

1. 
   wklemp | Jan 16, 2003 08:52pm | #6

   Have you seen the Wood Rat?  It sounds like my choices are coming down to the Leigh (which seems to be the gold standard) and the Wood Rat.  Their web site (http://www.woodrat.com) does a pretty good job of laying out how it works and what it is capable of.  If you are familiar with machining tools, it is the rough equivalent of turning your router into a vertical mill.  Instead of fingers/templates, it relies on repeatable indexing off of any pin layout you want to dream up.  I would really appreciate your assessment vis-a-vis the D4.

   Thanks,

   Wally

2. 
   jazzdogg | Jan 16, 2003 10:24pm | #7

   No one,

   I am undoubtedly "silly," but  I am no luddite.

   My response was qualified - that is to say, my choice of hand-cut dovetails v. machine-cut dovetails clearly depends upon two factors: (1) how many dovetails I have to cut, and; (2) how much noise and sawdust I'm willing to put up with in exchange for production speed.

   I consider quantitative and qualitative factors when deciding which method to use, which obviously includes more than just set-up time. I am not a purist who blindly insists his single-minded method is superior and surmise folks who use other methods are chumps or fools.

   However, I am a bit leery of beginners who "have to" have all of the gizmos they've seen on TV and consider having to cut dovetails by hand inferior because they haven't practiced enough to have become proficient.

   It was not until our correspondent let us know about his background that I had any idea he wasn't just another DIYer who was more interested in acquiring tools than  woodworking.

   I've used several methods to cut dovetails over the years, and, quite frankly, when I hear someone dismissively making comments like "I use a Leigh D4 exclusively" it tends to set off my crap detector. No offense intended.

1. 
   wklemp | Jan 17, 2003 02:15am | #10

   Sounds like you two have bantered before! 

   My "frustrating" hand-dovetail experience was a fully manual and eyeball approach(Tage Frid doesn't use dovetail markers or any alignment mechanisms).  Is that your preferred method, or are you using any guides/assists to create uniformity or speed things up?  Do you have any favorite reference articles on mastering hand-dovetails?

1. 
   jazzdogg | Jan 18, 2003 09:16pm | #12

   Wally,

   Taunton recently published the book "The Complete Illustrated Guide to Joinery" by Gary Rogowski. Pages 150-193 are dedicated to dovetails of all kinds. The rest of my woodworking books and magazines are temporarily in storage or I would recommend several more.

   Good luck,

   Jazzdogg

2. 
   wklemp | Jan 20, 2003 06:48pm | #15

   I will order the book.  Thanks!

   Wally

2. 
   noone51 | Jan 17, 2003 06:49am | #11

   Jazzdog,         Thanks for the explanation. Now it is clear. My initial thought was that you could do a production run of pins and tails faster and better than a Leigh D4. I also was presumptuious in thinking that you owned both the Leigh and a Wood Rat but would rather cut by hand.

   Sorry didn't mean to offend you.

3. 
   NOTRIX1 | Jan 20, 2003 08:01pm | #16

   Hi,

   I'm in the same boat, wanting to cut a number of dovetails for some drawers and deciding between the jig or the learning curve by hand.

   I your opinion how long would it take you to cut by hand 10 dovetails about 5 or 6 pins/tails on a 5-6" board?

   I feel it's important to be able to use both, depending on your intentions of course. I'm currently jockying for a rather large commision from a freind. I'm imaginging dozens of dovetailed pieces. I've cut them by hand before with dubious results and this was years ago I didn't get to a point where I was comfortable that I'd get it right each time or could do them in any predictable time frame. I'm finishing a jewelers bench I made for myself and want to cut the dovetails by hand for that. ( this project is already 5 years in the making!)

   I have about 6 months to prove I can make a nice dove tail drawer "on time".

   For me I'm think I could immerse myself in a jig for a good week and be able to figure what I'm capabile of. ( I'm talking simple through with maybe an occational half blind)

   Thanks,

   N

2. 
   Turbo | Jan 19, 2003 11:27am | #13

   Dear Wally,

           Though I've seen WoodRat advertised, I bought JoinTech.  For repeat performance, quality and ease, I am most satisfied.  Service support was fantastic with an 800 number, one call.   You can use it for production of many items, or a special project, in a few minutes.

                                                                        Regards,

                                                                        Turbo

1. 
   wklemp | Jan 20, 2003 06:48pm | #14

   Just sent for their catalog.  Thanks!