I am building a campaign desk for a client and I am not sure how to join the top and bottom to the sides. A sliding dovetail would not work because the dovetail slot would be too close to the edge and the joinery would be visible from the front and back. I don’t want to use pocket screws or dowels or any other mechanical fastener. By the way, I am building this out of 3/4″ Maple.
thanks
Mark
Replies
Many joints can be hidden by stopping them and cutting them flush. That way they don't show from the faces. Perhaps a rabbett would work for that desk. Leave a 1/4" x 5/16" tongue on the top and bottom of the ends on the inside, stop them back an inch or so, cut a corresponding groove in the top and bottom, also stopped back from the faces. Ordinary full width dadoes as well as dovetail dadoes could be used for the partitions between drawers, also stopped but dovetail dadoes would be seen from the back unless the actual back of the desk would cover them.
Mark,
To be period correct, a full-blind, or "secret" dovetail joint would have been used.
Think of a half-blind dovetail, whose pins do not extend through the face of the panel that the tails are cut into, but stop 1/8" or so short of piercing the face of the board. This 1/8" extends out to the face of the pin board. The effect is of a rabbetted butt joint.
Best work hides even this 1/8" of end grain by mitering the "blind" portions of each edge of the joint together.
View Image
stopped dovetails?
@ joinerswork:
is this what you meant? FYI In the pic I didn't draw all the female pieces just for lack of time. Wouldn't this just be a bunch of dovetail shaped tenons? If so, how are these stronger than just doing a couple wide tenons? is there more face grain contact with the stopped doevtails?
Hey Hey What's All This ?
>Exposed butts and female parts <
I leave this chat room for a few hours to get some sleep and some much needed pastry and what do I find ? Things have deteriorated, or gone up a notch, depending on one's perspective.
Since it is pretty dead around here I will chime in , well not actually chime as such, it is more of a growl or a bark if you will.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMDlZHdKMqk
Nice drawing ! Perfectly useless place for a dovetail. Sorry. I have never seen a dove tail used that way. And at ther very least face the pins the other way. Points out.
Right ?
May as well just use dowels if one is intending dovetails used in that manner. Nah dude nah Jointerswork did not mean that. I believe he meant : see my photos of my sample
When I first looked in on this thread what came to mind is (see the next link ) but that would get silly . . . have to off set the end ones toward the middle of the top and bottom and the dividers . . . have not seen this joint used with a cross grain orientation. Are the sides to be long grain up and down or horizontally ? Couldn't even use the dovetails you posted with horizontal grain for a few reasons. So since it has been a while since you posted and . . .
OK , Ok I will get to the point
https://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2460
PS: for the full blind dovetails joint pictured bellow the best text I know of is Ian Kirby's book.
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Dovetail-Handmade-Furnitures-Signature/dp/0941936678/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326662417&sr=1-1
If your client is willing to pay for those; congratulations you have just taken the price of the piece into the stratosphere. I recommend it but you won't be doing much else for a while so put that vacation the end of this summer on hold for a while.
: )
PPS: full blind joint orientation
The part to the right in my second photo would be the side of your table and the piece to your left would be the top of your table.
Sorry, in the last photo the parts are reversed, the left part ( that has the tails ) is the side.
The point is . . . the pins are cut into the top and the tails they slide into are cut into the sides.
That way the dovetails act mechanically to suspend the sides from the top even if the glue failed.
Not that it really matters much in this particular piece. Ok my mind is getting bent and I am babbling.
revision
Yeah I noticed I put dovetails pointing the wrong way but I didn't have time to go back and change it.
I like the idea of the mitered/hidden dovetail, but in the end it doesn't end up looking like the piece that I originally posted. I also don't think there is room on the end of the top to house the hidden sliding dovetail- it would be too close to the end of the board- notice the FWW article says to keep the joint at least 3/4" from the edge of the board.
In the end the desk might end up looking a little different if the client wants to decorate the piece with brass corner trim. Doing a dovetailed case doesn't take that long so hopefully adding the mitered aspect won't be that big of a deal. On the other hand, cutting a nice even miter on a tiny strip of end grain seems like it might suck.
Mark
Sorry that's about all I came up with
>Keep joint at least 3/4 from the edge of the board<
you could just use a side that is 1-1/2 thick
: )
>Full blinds don't take that long<
Sweet ! I want to take your class.
>miter on tiny strip of end grain<
I use this :
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?sku=half
Post with pics what you came up with; maybe even write an article for FWW
Mark,
Not the same; Roc said and showed it (thanks Roc); for some reason the drawing I tried to attach to my post does not show up. As you surmise, wide tenons, being oriented across the grain of the panels, have face grain to face grain only at their ends in this application. Dovetails have the advantage of having more face grain surface across the joint.
Ray
Struggle struggle struggle. I am commiserating with you.
>drawing I tried to attach to my post does not show up<
They don't make it easy here do they ?
The FAQ was not helpful but if you go there and click on
More about formatting options
At least you will get a laugh.
You may want to look into the file type
TIFF, JPEG for example
In the document / drawing creation program you are using you may find in a pull down that it says convert or save this document to a different file type.
There is a list of file types that can be posted here. I have not found that list yet.
roc,
Welp, it was a drawing that I found on the internets. Copy and paste, and it appeared in my post when (before) I posted it, but not now. I don't believe this forum plays well with links to other 'net places.
I have no interest in delving into the arcaneities of file types, I'd just get into a tiff over it (haha) in a maze of my own ignorance. It amuses me to read knowlegeable IT types explain how easy it is to embed images: "You just click "XYZ", and drop the image in a temporary file, resize to 720x 963 using your image manipulation program, then drag it to your clipboard, hold it there til the bus door opens. Get off on 43d street, re-format to enable terrabyte (the bigger the byte, the more the terror) inclusion, synchronise your modularities to vernical/boranam and that's it. Easy!"
In other news, congrats to Mark on his secret dovetail. Huzza!
Ray
>drag it to your clipboard, hold it there til the bus door opens. Get off on 43d street<
That's about right
Ha, Ha, Ha
Let's expose those butts once again shall we ?
Ray,
I know what you said about no desire to delve into file types.
I just now had to deal with it so I am posting this for your future fabulously fun forays into furniture info posting
The list of file types I found on the edit/creating a reply window with the attach a file button. The file types are :
jpg jpeg gif png txt doc xls pdf ppt pps odt ods odp skp.
I now remember I often use " pdf " with good results.
I save a copy of what I want to convert to that type. In this case it was a tiff or some such. I rename the copy then click on the pull down menu in the save as pop up window and select pdf and save it to the desk top so I can find it. Then just add it to your post as if it were a photo by clicking on the Choose file button and then selecting the newly named file from the list.
The pdf I just did is here :
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/general-discussion/offset-wrenches-router
PS: in this case I drug the page shown there to my desk top, opened it and took a screen shot ( actually a window shot ) and saved it to my desk top which created the tiff and then made the copy and pdf from there.
anyway thanks for listening
I feel better now
roc,
What I tried to do was "copy" an image from the internet, and "paste" it onto the post. It seemed to work (I could see the image after I pasted it, but when I came back , my post had one of those little teeny-tiny boxes there, with a red X in it. Phooey.
Ray
I agree
Double Phooey
PS: part of the secret is to drag FROM THE WEB PAGE onto your desk top (rather than copy (but maybe it doesn't matter that much )). Then massage it as above.
Not that I am all knowing about comfusers. I just F'd with it until it worked.
My secret to success.
Of course some times things explode. That's all part of the " fun " .
Choices
Personally, I'd use normal through dovetails of some heft, and simply allow them to show. These pieces were made for rough treatment, so I suspect that the finer points of full-blind DTs would show up only in units used by higher-ranking officers. In my view, the full-blind dovetail is one of the most difficult joints to master. I'm also guessing that the fixed saw-horse style supports shown in your sample photo aren't authentic to the period, since they wouldn't fold flat for transport. But, I don't actually know.
Ultimately, the design choice is yours, of course, and your piece isn't likely to need to endure the same stresses that the originals experienced.
I gave it a try and it didn't turnout that bad for a first attempt. I also left my 1/4" chisel at home so I had to do the whole thing with a 3/8, which meant it was hard to get into the tiny corners. I now see how getting this to fit is tougher than with other dovetails and might be a pain but it's super strong.
Nice ! Way to go. Looks like you're going to win this one
>hard to get into the tiny corners<
You know it. I finally made up some special chisels I read about. They help.
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