Replies

1. 
   Eef | Jun 10, 2010 02:20pm | #1

   wanna,

   the door frame is not the jam.  the door frame will be fit into the jam,  the jam being the opening.  the verticle piece between the lights is the mullion and i have m&t'd them into place many times.  the stiles and rails of the door frame may be mortised and tennoned as well.  one may just pin the glass stop in place or pin and silicone.

   eef

2. 
   acornw | Jun 10, 2010 04:00pm | #2

   Exterior Door Frame Work

   You will find the terminology is loose, regional and confusing. 

   The frame that carries the door and sidelight(s) is typically 6/4 to 8/4, rabbeted to accept the sash. Sometimes an outer rabbet is added for trim alignment or even to swing a screen door.  The head frame member is dadoed to recieve the vertical mulls, and the two outer frame members are rabbeted to seat the head. We glue and lag screw all these components together.  We like a canted W Oak sill (8/4), with 10 degrees of slope, and ears on the exterior upon which to set the exterior trim. The mulls are cut to seat directly on the sill, then glued and lagged ( x 4 ) from below, and the side frame members are rabbeted to pass over the ends of the sill.  Again, glue and lag screws. 

   We straighten all lumber first, and then glue the frames for mulls back to back, or box them for larger designs. If boxed, enough wood is added for long hinge screws and rigid insulation fills any voids.

   The sidelights are often set into the frame with stops on the interior side.  Add a long kerf when rabbeting to allow sealant to go into the rabbet corners so when the sash are set, they seal themselves in place. Also, a drip mold of some fashion should be made to seal the sidelight face to the sill, with an over-bevel to allow additional sealant.

   Plan the sill to sit about 3/4" above interior finish floor so a rug can be placed. This sometimes complicates the use of a thick sill, requiring flooring removal. Use a vinyl sweep on the door bottom after you coat the bottom with epoxy.  If your install is in a place that gets weather, you may consider a bronze riser and brass j-hook to seal the door bottom. Epoxy the sidelight bottoms also.

   There is much to the subject, but that should keep you out of trouble.

   Davd R Sochar

   Acorn Woodworks (acornwoodworks.com)

1. 
   WannaBeJazzer | Jun 10, 2010 07:51pm | #3

   Thanks David, good info.  Some follow up questions if anyone is up for it:

   It sounds like trying to M&T the mulls is overkill?

   What depth do you like for the rabbit - 3/8 ok or you like more contact area?

   What kind of sealant -  clear silicone?

   Does the completed rabbited frame get screwed to the rough opening on all 4 sides?

   "a drip mold of some fashion should be made to seal the sidelight face to the sill, with an over-bevel to allow additional sealant" - I can't quite envision this.  All 4 sides of the sidelight need the mold?  Back bevel the exposed edge of the mold to get sealant between the mold and the sidelight?

   Epoxy is a great tip.  Regards - Jazzer.

1. 
   acornw | Jun 12, 2010 12:58pm | #5

   More Exterior Jambs

   Go back far enough historically, and you will see that 500 yrs ago, the head was long, and mortised to receive the sides - even on single door frames.  I have seen this in some French work less than 120 yrs old.  As fasteners and glues improved, and rough openings standardized, the dado became prevalent.  It certainly is adequate for providing a stable opening dimension.

   I have seen sills that were pocketed with a shallow mortise (1/8") to locate the jambs, and even used to copy this (40 yrs ago), but once I saw the rot this caused, I moved away from it.

   1/2" rabbets are standard.  If using the kerf-in type weather strip, 1/2" or even 5/8" is fine. If you do not like the compressible foam, then you can use spring bronze and nail it in - see Pemko for the product - and let the door hit the edge of the rabbet.  The spring bronze is tedious, but effective and ages well. I have seen it working well at 80 yrs old.  And, you can slam the door, if need be.

   Silicone is fine - clear or colored, though we use a commercial urethane that has lots of movement and a higher sealing factor.

   You can set the frame with screws on all four sides, into countersunk holes that are subsequently plugged. Some with skip the pluges and place screws where the weatherstrip later covers. The hinge jamb is critical for weight carriage. You can place long - 3" or better - screws in the hinge pockets before the hinge goes in for the final time. The length will tie the jamb thru the shims to the house framing and prevent sag and movement. Place shims carefully at every point a jamb screw goes to the frame.   you can also replace a supplied hinge screw with a long screw if you like at each hinge, but if you remove the hinges (future painting or refinish), then you may lose you critical door clearances.

   At the outside sidelight to sill joint, make a small molded (on top edge) piece that fits tight from jamb to jamb, has about a 20 degree bottom to mate to the 10 degree sill and provide a pocket for sealant.  This can be 1/2" to 3/4" thick and from 3/4" to 1-3/4" high, and profiled to shed water.  Put plenty of sealant in the corner, and gush the molding into place. Clean up the sealant  after it is cured.

   Water shedding is critical in any door/frame that is in weather.  Avoid flats, encourage everything to shed water with a 10 degree or better bevel. 

   Dave S   Acornwoodworks.com

2. 
   WillGeorge | Jun 12, 2010 11:28am | #4

   Great reply.. And then there is the 'terminology is loose, regional and confusing'...

   Forget a drip mold and you are in trouble forever! You mention lag screws... It seems they all come from China these days and will rust out. (What I think of a Lag Screw)..

   I use to make/(mostly repair) doors in very old houses (expensive houses).. I used bronze hardware that I purchased from a supplier in Wisconsin that sold boat hardware. I forget who they were.. I'm thinking, James something.. This was in the late 1970's..

   Doors are FUN and a Pain-In-The-Butt to make..... 

   I'd say, if you do a good door.. THAT IS FineWoodworkingI

3. 
   DonStephan | Jun 12, 2010 06:18pm | #6

   The explanations posted are really first rate.  My suggestion would be to supplement them with a couple good trim carpentry books that will have pictures and additional verbage to which you can refer as needed. 

   If you are great with a caulk gun I guess silicone is okay - lots of people won't use anything else.  But if it gets smeared around, terrible mess.  Just my two cents.

4. 
   OlyMack | Jul 13, 2010 02:24pm | #7

   bottom of sash/sill

   Dave and All,

   I've got the details nearly ironed out.  I'm wondering about the bottom of the sash/sidelite.  

   It doesn't have a weatherstripped rabbit to come against, correct?  I'm guessing it would be nice if the sill is beveled all the way from front to back like an old fashioned window sill.  and the sash equally beveled?  Then the drip mold on the outside, formed and caulked as you said, provides the weather seal?

   Thanks!

1. 
   acornw | Jul 14, 2010 09:24am | #8

   Sidelight and Sill

   We make the sill continuous in profile so it is flat under the sidelight.   See the drawing attached.  We give it about 1/16" clearance, and quirk bead 1/8 x 1/8" on the interior side of the sash to give a similar reveal as to the door.  The drawing shows only the door detail in section.  As the side light goes in, 'generous' use is made of the urethane sealant, and then this is backed up as previously discussed witrh the molding on the outside.

   Seal the bottom of the sidelight with epoxy and let it cure before it goes in so the stiles will not go back to transporting water as they did in the living tree.

   The drawing shows our preferred weatherstrip, rabbetted into the door bottom. This is clean on the inside and weather tight if it is all installed with care.

   Dave S

   http://www.acornwoodworks.com

   
1. 
   OlyMack | Jul 16, 2010 04:46pm | #9

   Beautiful!

   Thanks Dave.

5. 
   TonyCz | Jul 17, 2010 01:44am | #10

   Swing in or swing out side lights?

   Are the side lights you plan to install going to swing in or out? If you plan to use a screen you may wany to swing the side light out so the screen fits to the inside. 

   Here in the west So Cal. the term used is or can be one of three.

   Back to back mull, where the jamb stock is butted together.

   2nd term is one stud mull pocket with a 2" space between the jambs  then there is also a two stud mull pocket.  whcih is about a 4" space.

   3rd is the solid mull post width made to order for ether a swing on or swing out door and side light combo. .  

    I personally like the the 1 stud mull as a general rule but the job in hand may dictate which one is bet suted for you job.  It all comes down to how much room you have for the rough opening.

   As for the right fasterner used to hold the frame together,  use what you have avalible like gold D/W screws or finish nails like senco or the bostich T nails. If you don't have a 5/8" crown staple gun.  

6. 
   woodmanipulator | Jul 21, 2010 09:17pm | #11

   craftsman doors

   I have a great book on this titled Shop Drawings for Craftsman Interiors, By Robert W. Lang.  This book features 3 styles of Jamb, Contemporary (like modern doors, Rabbeted (no applied doorstop), Improved  Jamb (door stop is inset in a dado which hides fasteners into framing), and a 2 part jamb which is more complicated.  The book is available fromFox Chapel Publishing.  I really like the 2 part jamb, and I use it whenever I do entry doors in any style.  I have built several doors from plans in this book.  My favorite is the Ledger door with lights, but it was a extreemly difficult project.  this door is built of 3 wide vertical planks with a square interior cut out toward the top of each.  Three ledgers are cut into the back of the door  (thats the hard part). with something like a sliding dove tail joint.  I didn't have a plunge cut saw when I made the door, it would have been much easier if I had.  It is absolutely vital to have perfectly seasoned wood for a door such as this, especially an exterior door.