Still trying to finalize design and then construction of face frame kitchen cabinets for new house. Have three books, Tolpin, Proulx and Schmidt on subject but neither individually nor in total do they answer all my questions, particularly when I look at commercially made cabs, so I’m hoping I’ll get some insights from you all. Specifically I’m dealing with the face frames and how they fit the cabs. Doors and drawers will be overlap. I’ll be using 35mm Blum hinges and full extension side mount drawer slides. Pocket hole joinery will be used wherever possible.
Face frame dimensions vary from 1 1/4″ wide to 2″, commercial cabs seem to be std at 1 7/8″ what do you reccomend?
Only one book deals with overlap to outside of cab case, 1/4″ , and since it recommends 2″ wide frames with 3/4″ case that leaves 1″ to the inside of case. Commercials are at 7/8″. Is that amount really necessary? I think I understand the relationship between that consideration and the type and overlap of hinges used plus reveal but am concerned about the loss of access to inside of the cab.
All state that kickspace is built at either 3″ or 3 1/2″ high using 2X4’s as base grid BUT one book says that the bottom face frame rail should be flush with bottom of case. Commercials are at 1/8″ proud of bottom. So, given the overlap to the bottom of the face frame, it would seem that one has to have higher than a 2X4 to produce the required kick space under the face frame. I’m confused! Commercials vary from 4″ – 41/2″.
Any help/tips you can give on above plus any other considerations are greatly appreciated.
Replies
As far as the toe kick goes, that can be dependent on the installation - If you use the leveling legs, the toe kick is just clipped onto those and so you can vary the height of the cabinet within some limits and then make the toe kick to fit the final height. They are an added expense, but the savings in time in shimming and leveling the cabinets otherwise makes up for it.
Hi LIMEYZEN ,
The size of your face frame members will determine the look you end up with . Decide what look and the reveals you want then design the faces . If you will use an oversize crown molding then the top rail on the wall cabinets will need to accommodate the moldings . If you will have pull out bread boards then the top rail of the base cabinets may need to be near 3" . The loss of access behind the reveals of the face frame are negligible . 3 1/2 " is fairly standard toe space ht . Check the appliances you will use , see how they measure up. One reason pre fabs may use 4 1/2" toe is because they use the same 30" stiles on the walls as they do on the base , then when they set a 12" wall cabinet on a toe kick it lines up with the rest of the base cabinets . The use of cabinet materials plywoods and such would be better and flatter then 2x4s for the toe kicks . On floor to ceiling units we usually need to make a loose toe , that gets screwed down before the cabinet slides on it .
hope this helps dusty
I would try too keep it simple so I don't mess up and enjoy the experience as opposed to fretting everything. Make all your frames and reveals the same size. There are some very inexpensive face frame programs on the net that have 30 day free trials. Search 'even shelves' then look at companion programs- I think
Make only two sizes: single and double wide cabs and bases. Solve the left-over geometry with returns. Makes milling and assembly a heck of alot easier. What material are you using?
I understand the clean flush look of Euro-hinges; but if you don't have alot of experience with them do you really want to put yourself thru all that on a major home improvement project? If your a masochist and must; then I would buy a good jig to install with.
Lime:
I can understand your confusion. You are getting many different pieces of advice on the same subject and no two pieces of advise are the same.
Frist-- you can and should look at the books on cabinet making. There are many different tweaks to the construction process. This will serve as a good academic review.
Second- It is great that you looked at commerical cabs. Remember, these guys are producing many cabs in a manufacturing facility either in a production line or a dedicated work cell for different operations.
Also the commercial guys build differently as well. For example a Merillat cabinet is build completely different from a Medallion cabinet.
I would suggest that you buy ONE cabinet from the commercial guys. Some in the semi custom cabinet buisness and mimick their construction methods. Then you can carefully tear apart the cabinet and see for yourself how it was made. Some reputable brand names are Kraftmaid, Yorktowne, Medallion, and Dacora.
These guys literally build hundreds of thousands of cabients every year. You will end up speding about $70 bucks for a 15" wide base cabinet. But you will have a visual reference for your cabs.
Goodluck--
Mark
Thank you,
The Great Marko
I use 2"stiles, 2" mullions, 2 1/2" top rails and 1 1/2" bottom rails.
Stiles and vert. mullions have 1/2"W x 1/4 D grooves to accept 1/2" plywood sides and vert. partitions. On the mullions the groove is centered to allow for max drawer adjustment. On the stiles the groove is 1/4" in from the outside edge. This helps when joining cabs together in a run... Irregular walls etc..
Sean
Prolly more than you wan't to know: 2" face frames, 2 1/4" door rails and stiles and 1/2" overlay works real well. It doesn't take long to figure out how to install Blum hinges: buy a few extras and play with them. The Blum inserta jig (~20.00) will align the dowel holes to the 35mm hole (which is easily aligned against a drill press fence), the 35mm holes are typically drilled 4" on center from the ends of the door. The door overlap is determined by the height of the face frame adapter (when you buy the ff adapter they come in heights from 0-3mm) and the amount the 35mm hole is set in from the edge of the door (Blum has tables on line.) 5mm inset + 3mm height = ~1/2" overlay. I recommend the inserta hinge which is the easiest to remove and reinstall, costs a little more but worth it. The mini hinges aren't as adjustable as the full size hinges, thus I spring for the hinge that will cover up the errors. ;)
I usually make all rails and stiles 2". 1/4" "ears" on units to be jloined. 3/4" boxes with 1/2" ply backs. Upper cabs have the rail flush with the bottom shelf. Lower cabs have no lower rail, but a banded bottom with the stiles mortised in. This allows for flush installation of slides and/or access to the bottom. Usually use 1/2" overlay hinges. 2x4 bases. NO MDF.
Pardon my stupidity but I'm having a hard time visualising your approach on the bottom cabs bottom. Can you elaborate for me?
Not stupidity, I just gave you a thumbnail sketch. Hope this will clarify.
Visualize a bottom cab face frame with one drawer opening and an opening for a door below. Standard cabs use rails along the top, middle, and bottom of the frame. I omit the bottom rail, make the bottom of the carcase 3/4" wider than the top of the carcase. I build a face frame without the bottom rail. Band the bottom of the carcase. Assemble the box. Lay the FF on the carcase and mark the bottom where the stiles cross. Remove this material. I use a clamp on router jig for this. Place the FF on the carcase and check for fit. It should lay perfectly flush with the bottom banding. I attach paint-grade FF's with glue and brads. Finished cabs with screws and plugs. Buld doors with any kind of reveal you want, but make them long enough to cover the bottom. I havn't made this kind with inset doors, but I guess you could.
This method allows for 2" more storage space in the under-drawer area. This will allow the HO to hang large skillets and pots vertically from a bar running the length of the carcase. Makes installing slide-outs easier to install also. Hope this cleared things up.
Thankyou- now it's clear to me.
You want the inside bottoms of the case and face frame to be flush, so you can slide stuff in and out of the cabinet without having to lift it over. I suppose this matters less if you're installing pull-outs. I think that having 1/4" or so of face frome sticking out beyond the case is a good idea; makes it easier to snug up adjacent cabinets if you find yourself with a slightly warped case for some reason.
I'm far from an experienced cabinet builder, but it seems to me that face frame widths etc. are in large part a matter of taste. In the design phase for my cabinets, I spent a lot of time measuring the cheap particleboard POS base cabinet (yes, that's singular) in my current kitchen, and adapted to suit.
Mark Sommerfeld sells a good video about building cabinets for ~10 bucks. Kind of an infomercial but well worth the money.
RJT ,
It's true, careful consideration should be given to the dimension of the top rails on base cabinets . The different types of lips and build ups that various countertops require along with the overlay of drawer and door faces with an occasional pull out wood cutting board can change with the types of tops . Most tile tops call for an allowance for a 1-1/2" top thickness , sometimes the edge cap of tile or stone may lip down a bit onto the face . IMO the top rail gives considerable stability and strength , with all the weight of these tops , sagging will not be a problem with adequate partition walls and the right size top rail . On euro style all reveals are much less and a different animal all together .
dusty
I usually make top rails on lower cabs 2". For SS tops (1/2" X 1-3/8" edging) it will give a 1/2" reveal with the drawer faces centered. For laminate (3/4" X1-1/2" edging) you adjust the drawer face width to get a reveal you like on the top of the face, and between the door and bottom of the drawer face. Point is, know what kind of top and edging you're gonna have. I usually mock-up a strip of top material with the edging size in the shop so I can double check the reveal before I attach the drawer faces to the boxes.
Limeyzen,
I notice you intend to use pocket hole joinery. Are you using a Kreg or similar jig? If so, check the minimum rail width required for use of the jig before you rip the rails to width. My Kreg jig requires a rail width of at least about 1 3/4", to keep the screws from splitting out the edges. Gary
There are several different ways you could approach it. I've tried cutting all box componants the same and using 4/4 banding on the front, but flush trimming that was a PITA. And, if you do an inset door, you could omit the extension of the bottom, and just use stock the same width as the FF. You'd only have inset on 3 sides, but it would look lighter than having rails on both the FF and the door. I generally build banded slab doors for these cabs. Not high end, just good solid cabs that will last.
Isn't it great to have so many good people here , willing to sit down, spend some time to write about woodworking? I found this forums an excellent tool to aproach any project.
In reference to the kitchen cabinets, I am about to start the same project and I am going to be making them with maple doors, but without the frames. I guess the frames are a good way to hide all the imperfections of the comercial cabinets, specially those made with particle board. It is more money also to use them, but for me , cabinets look a little bit "bulky". Frameless cabinets look much refined"... But still, if you want to go with those, I found that 2 1/8" is the way to go..
By the way, I found that buying pre-finished Birch plywood , after you put everything in place, looks like maple, and is much less that maple ply.
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