Replies

1. 
   oldusty | Aug 28, 2006 06:38am | #1

   Hi WMH ,

                    I'm sure there are as many opinions as there are elbows on this subject .

        Let the design and function and desired look dictate the type of construction .

       Both face frame and frameless have advantages and disadvantages .

     For an application where sheer strength is critical face frames are the way to go , for a sleek Euro clean line look frameless may be best .

      Imo the frameless requires better joinery , so for a new woodworker trying each style will be a great exercise and experience .

                 regards               dusty

2. 
   cowtown | Aug 28, 2006 07:32am | #2

   No articles that I know of. Not to say they ain't out there...

   Step 1 is to look at all the waste space taken up by the face frames

   Step 2 is to look at all the extra finising required by face frames

   Step 3 is to look at how effectively (NOT!!) FE slides and hidden hinges work with face frames and the extra wasted space might not really be wasted.....

   Step 4 is to to convincee SWMBO that the wasted space, extra time,materials and labour is somehow offset by the fact that there are probably 25% more corners to clean.

   Step 5 is to tell her that if she ever wants to re-door the face frame unit, that it's probably gonna cost about 30-50% more to recover all the face frames too.

   Step 6 is to translate to SWMBO that really convenient aspect of the face frame doors ..when they are overfilled with debris, when you open them, the debris that hits the upper face frame simply pushes anything behind it out the back of the drawer. I ain't figured out if this is a virtue or a vice, but when I was cleaning out a cupboard underneat a drawer, I once found 150 bucks in gift certificates that had gotten "self cleaned" out of the drawer above. OTOH, when u want yer bills to disappear.....

   Eric, with a distintct "frameless" perspective
   from Cowtown

   Oh ya, I know that you can use face frame hinges to accomodate euro-style doors, but have you ever met a client 4 years later.....

   The suckers require constant attention- tightening etc

   For me it's a no brainer...Euro style.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 8/28/2006 2:13 am ET by cowtown

3. 
   highfigh | Aug 28, 2006 02:46pm | #3

   The style of cabinet depends on what you prefer. There are hinges for face frame cabinets that won't need any adjustment over time but if the doors are particularly heavy, three (or more) hinges are needed.

   The Euro style are more of a time saving step than anything else. Closed, they don't really look much different but there is access to slightly more internal volume. I have made both kinds but made face frame for my kitchen.

   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
1. 
   Ricks503 | Aug 28, 2006 05:23pm | #4

   There are hinges for face frame cabinets that won't need any adjustment over time but if the doors are particularly heavy, three (or more) hinges are needed.

    

   Blum actually makes an adaptor plate for their hinges, that will fit on face frames, so you can use Euro hinges with face frame cabinets.  I did that when I redoored the cabinets in the kitchen of my last house. I had face frame cabinets and did not want to spend time and money making them frameless.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go        4 - get a new board and go back to step 1

1. 
   highfigh | Aug 28, 2006 06:39pm | #6

   I bought Amerock hinges for face frames. They have a small tab that helps to align the front/back initial fitting and a set screw for fine tuning. They don't go back into the cabinet as far as the Blum type, either.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

1. 
   wmh | Aug 29, 2006 02:09am | #7

   If faceframe cabinets use more wood, are harder to clean, and require special hardware, why are they so popular?  Do they generally look better?  Are they easier to make?  What is the appeal?Thx

   Bill

1. 
   jesse | Aug 29, 2006 02:17am | #8

   They are more traditional. Whether it's Victorian, Craftsman, or anything in between, face frames are "the usual" and so people like them.To me, euro cabinets all have a modern look. This is not good or bad, just different. It depends what look you are going for.

2. 
   oldusty | Aug 29, 2006 02:59am | #9

   Hi Bill ,

                FF cabinets do not necessarily require any special hardware , in fact the Euro hinges can be the same exact hinge with a different mounting bracket in some cases and sometimes they can use the same brackets as well . Flush inset doors can use the exact same hinge and bracket in FF or frameless applications .

       In reality  when was the last time anyone you know cleaned the insides of their cabinets ? A very moot and insignificant point IMHO .

     Much strength is lost without a face frame , I can't remember ever seeing a Frameless cabinet without a cabinet back , not so with a FF .

      With full overlay doors and smaller frame members of the face frame they can be made to look quite similar .

      Traditionally FFs have been used in the U.S. exclusively until the Euro styles have been introduced as a clean and minimalist look .

       What's hot or popular in cabinet looks is kind of a cycle like the dress hem .

                                           dusty

3. 
   dwolsten | Aug 29, 2006 09:52pm | #10

   Face frames don't require special hardware. Look at the cabinets in any typical 50s house. They just have regular (visible) hinges. It wasn't until the Europeans invented the hidden hinges that anyone even thought of frameless cabinets. Lots of people still gets cabinets with visible hinges, because it's more traditional looking.

4. 
   Pondfish | Aug 28, 2006 06:03pm | #5

   I've always made FF cabinets and find them fully functional in the kitchen with no real wasted space.   It's easy to make them using Kreg joinery and I've had no problems with finding hinges or slides for them.

   It's all a matter of taste.

   Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
5. 
   USANigel | Aug 30, 2006 05:22am | #11

   Faceframe cabinet takes 11 pieces of wood to make, Euro cab can take as few as five. If your doors will cover the front of the cabinets then go with Euro cabs. Strength of the cabs is all down to construction. The 35 mm hinge system is easy to use.

1. 
   wmh | Aug 31, 2006 06:13am | #12

   Thank you to everyone who weighed in on this issue.  Clearly there is no right or wrong answer - both styles have their pros and cons.  I hope to try both over time.

   Thx again.

   Bill

6. 
   RickL | Aug 31, 2006 03:38pm | #13

   I've alwasy disliked face frames as the frames get in the way. Especially in a face framed bookcase. Frameless cabinets can be made to look modern or old and traditional with the appropriate door.

   One thing I rarely see mentioned about face frame cabinets is in Europe most of the cabinets are RTA (ready to assemble, sounds better than knock down). Many folks bring their kitchen with them in Europe as many apartments and houses do not come with furnished kitchens.

   32 mm is based on the grid format used in the hardware and construction boring machines ansd really doesn't have much to do with the frameless concept but it tends to get used interchangably.

7. 
   mudman | Sep 28, 2006 06:40am | #14

   Sorry to dredge up an old thread, but it only got up to 12 or 14 posts! On a subject like this I expect more from my fellow knotheads.

   All the points presented ring true to me, even the seemingly contradictory ones. A couple of importaint things for the hobbiest or amature is that most face frame cabs are a lot more forgiving. If the door or drawer is off a little or out of square no one will see because there is at least an inch between them. The installation is a lot more forgiving, if Euro cabs are not installed very level or if the boxes rack a little (which faceframes resist quite well) the doors will be a bugger to get straight.

   Euro cabs require EDGE BANDING. No one brought that very very importaint part up. Iron on edge banding dosent last. I know someone out there has a 15 year old kitchen with iron on banding that hasn't come unglued, but that is not the norm. In order to do a truly profesional job you need a serious edge bander. If you dont have (at least) a $5,000 edge bander you will have to manually glue (with that awfull contact cement), attatch, roll, trim and chamfer all those unsightly edges that would other wise be covered by 3/4" of solid wood. That process is messy and unpleasant. I know that for me making face frames is not very much slower and is a lot more pleasant. I suspect that most of the posters that are pro Euro have a Euro shop equiped with a good edge bander and line boreing machines, that makes the whole process very nice and clean. And finally in my area the hot thing is still traditional designs with lots of mouldings and intricate doors and multi step finishing. These types of doors dont usually look right butted against each other, particulary if they have heavily profiled edges.

   Personally I like the clean lines of Euro cabs and I like not loosing the 3 or so inches of space. That three inches matters when you are stuck making a 16" cabinet. The drawer ends up around 11 inches with 2" faceframes. A euro cab would still have a 14" drawer. And hardware is a whole lot easier to install on euro cabinets.

   I still think that the beaded faceframes and inset doors will always be the pinnacle of cabinetry. Well made face frame cabinets that maintain an even reveal all the way around the kitchen (between the doors on a cabinet and the doors on consecutive cabinets) with doors that have nice edging and matching grain are the hallmark of an acomplished cabinet builder. Euro cabinets speak more to the design and function and less about the crafstmanship. Granted these observations are generally completely lost on the customer. But I offer both stiles (pun intended) to my customers without even telling them the difference. I show them pictures and they point out what they like. If they ask (not often) about the difference I simply tell them the most importaint thing is that the cabinets fit the style they like. I offer no bias to them (customers tend not to like pompus lectures on these subjects) and I build 7 FF jobs to one Euro job. In the end that is all that matters.

    

   Pardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

1. 
   wmh | Sep 28, 2006 03:52pm | #15

   Mudman,

    

   Thank you.  I thought your feedback was terrific!

   Are there other ways to construct Euro cabinets w/o edge banding?

1. 
   RickL | Sep 28, 2006 03:58pm | #16

   You can easily glue on 1/8" or so nosing with yellow glue. You said you are only making a few cabinets so it's a non issue.

1. 
   mudman | Sep 29, 2006 02:47am | #18

   Glueing solid wood to the front of a cabinet......... kinda sounds like a face frame.

   Really I'm just giving you a hard time. There is more to a "Euro" cabinet than not having a face frame. As another poster mentioned if you set the face frame overlay so that the insides are flush and follow the 32 mm standard, it is still a Euro cabinet to me. I guess it is a face framed Euro cab? Ive glued 1/8" strips to the front of shelves and it workes good, but if you have even a few cabinets at four edges each that necesatates a whole lot of clamps and cowlings. Of course you could do one or two at a time. Fortunately I live in Texas where cowlings are easy to find, especially in the spring. Clamps on the other hand are always in short supply.

    Pardon my spelling,

   Mike

   Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.

2. 
   CJH | Sep 28, 2006 04:26pm | #17

   "Are there other ways to construct Euro cabinets w/o edge banding?"There is a hybrid approach of sorts. If you type Proulx into the search bar at the bottom left of the forum page you should find a lot of threads that discuss Proulx.The short version of his approach is that you build face frames where the inside distance from stile to stile is the same as the inside width of your cabinet boxes. So the frames sit proud of the outside dimension of the cabinet box. Not quite the space savings of standard Euro cabinetry but it allows using all of the hardware and offers the strength and look of the typical American framed cabinet.I ordered his book based on thread here and enjoyed my initial skim through it. It was a very intutitive approach for a guy like me who has some basic woodworking skills but up to this point has been entirely self-taught.