Hi all,
I’m planning my kitchen cabs which I intend on building. I like the look of face-frames over frameless but frameless does provide more space in the cabs … beyond that, I’m interested in knowing if there any pros or cons to either frameless or face-frame construction. Are cabs built with face-frames any easier to install? Somebody at Loews said you have a bit more wiggle room during installation of the cabs if you use face-frames. Not sure what questions to really ask here; just looking for the voices of experience!
Thanks,
Dave
Replies
Ron,
Thanks for the info-actually, I've studied both the taunton books by tolpin, the levine book and I've looked at a lot of cabinets...no real apprenticeship though so I'm at a bit of a disadvantage.
Follow-up question: When you join two face-frame cabinets together, I'm assuming that the face-frames overhang the outside edge of each case and butt against each other. So you're not screwing together the cases but the face-frames only. Is that the case generally.
Or would it be better if, say, you were joining three cabs together in a row to build one large face-frame and install it after you've installed, plumbed, leveled the cabs in their final resting place? What approach do you use?
Thanks again for your advice,
Dave
Two times the labour of face frame? Then you don't know how to do it, or don't have the tools. It's less labour, and less materials, and the hardware works better and is easier to install. The industry rule of thumb is 25% more interior space on average, framless compared to face frame.....maybe less for simple uppers, more for drawer banks....that's about 3/4" on each side, multiplied by two feet or so depth and 30 inches or so height. It adds up, especially when you're trying to ft in all the new gadgets and accessories. I did the math on a thread at Breaktime a while ago....don't know if it would turn up on a search, but I have a copy somewhere.
The only place frame has an advantage is if you can't cut accurate, square parts consistently....easier to fudge, as you say. And I'm not knocking frame; I often do a combination, or at least have a couple of framed cabinets in there. But I do believe in the benefits of frameless construction, especially if you really understand how to use the hardware syatems....and they are systems....to maximum advantage.
cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
WAY too conservative to be merely right wing
Here's a link to that thread I mentioned.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3Ecabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
David,
The cabinets in the attached photo are frameless, or Euro style. My experience is that they make better use of interior space, and as Adrien said, Euro hardware, like hinges, are designed for this type cabinet. Frameless cabinets may only be slightly more difficult to install, because of close tolerances, and I think they take just as long to build, since I spend more time laying out the room and designing details, again because tolerances are closer. I work to a 32nd and sometimes to decimals - my design software makes it pretty easy (Cabnetware).
My Euro style cabs have a bit of an inset door, face frame look, achieved by flush end panels, and solid wood vs. edge banded top and bottom carcase edges. I like solid edged bottoms in cabinets that don't have drawers or pullout shelves - they wear better.
Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
Gary,
Your work looks absolutely gorgeous. I particularly like that curved upper cab on the right. Are these yours or your client's?
A quick question about case construction. I've investigated all of the options: dado, biscuit, tongue & groove. But it seems to me why not butt joints and simply screw and glue them together? Just seems to me that would be a strong permanent connection - is my logic correct in your view?
Thanks, Dave
Those cabinets aren't mine, they're in a Portola Valley, CA client's home.
The carcases are assembled of edgebanded, C-2 grade, veneer core maple plywood with 2-in-long Confirmat screws. Of course they're butt joined, which is the European method. I learned long ago that I don't need special joints or glue. I do use biscuits to join shelves to ends in cabinets where I don't want fasteners showing on the outside, but that's rare.
Frame and panel end panels are applied, with the front edge in plane with the door/drawer faces, to give the job an inset look. Wherever I can, as in attaching the end panels, I screw from the inside of the carcase. And any applied face frames are biscuit joined to the carcase. I don't use nails, except to apply the crown trim and 1/4-in-thick toe kick skins. There I use glue and headless 18 or 20-guage pins. I don't like to see those little filled nail dimples. See the attached closeups.
The upper has a cherry plywood interior behind it's glass doors, which is some kind of wavy, antique stuff - I can't remember what it's called (anyway, it's not the photo). The 3/4-in-thick, MDF end panel has a solid edge on the front.
I guess I didn't apply a frame to the bottom edges of the base cabinet, but it does have one on it's top.
This was a pretty time consuming, but profitable project. Some of the details would have been even more difficult were the cabs to have been traditional. For instance, the end panels are scribed to the wall, which is hard if they're part of the cabinet.
Hope this helps.
Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
Edited 1/10/2003 10:45:22 AM ET by Gary
Gary.....
That is some beautiful work sir, awesome actually.
I have a question, where did you get the glass shelves for the end cabinets?
My glass supplier does not have the ability to cut and polish like that.
Another question, How did you get the crown to run the radius of the end cabinet, did you turn it on a lathe or do you buy it.
I too am in California so I could use some help finding these items.
T-I-A
God Bless......
Raul S
Creative Woods
Raul,
Are you the same Raul who posts on the Cabnetware forum?
Thanks for the compliments. All the glass on this job, including skylights over the upstairs hall (see attached photo), is from Visual Impact, of Mountain View, CA (650-964-4333). I gave them patterns for 1/2" thick glass, which I inserted into dadoes. It's removable, in case it breaks. I shaped all the crown and the moldings under the uppers. I had to reverse the cutter and feed direction in order to avoid tearout.
Each of the VGDF skylight sashes hinge down on invisible Soss hinges. This photo was taken at night, with illumination provided by daylight florescent bulbs.Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
Gary.......
That would be me.
At least the last time I checked it was, so I think I am safe in saying it is.
Most people recognize my closing on all my posts.
Funny how people pick up on little things like that.
I guess you can recognize my stupid questions huh ? Ha ha ha ha .......
Man I cant believe some of the work you guys do, it looks like some thing you would find in a castle.
Awesome Skylights man, do you work alone or do you have a crew?
God Bless........
Raul S
Creative Woods
Raul,
I thought it was you, and by the way, I like your salutation. I haven't seen any stooopid questions here or on the Cabnetware forum, so what are you talking about?
My work is mostly hi-end; I've tried to focus on that sector of the market. I do an occasional economy grade cabinet, usually for a friend, but I prefer involved, craftsman style and contemporary projects for discerning clients. As I continue work on a 6,000-sf Carmel home, I'm trying to land a 27,000-sf place up in Healdsburg. I've worked for the owner before, on their Atherton home - see the mantle in the attached photo. That job could keep me going for the next couple of years.
Right now I'm working alone, but I've had one apprentice in the shop, off and on. I enjoy teaching. With a big project like Healdsburg, I'll probably begin a slow expansion to two employees - an apprentice and a journeyman level craftsman. I need that job because my son wants to join the business in March. He wants out of hi tech, where he trains support people. I don't blame him, and I look forward to having him with me. He'll run the front end of the business so I might spend more time in the shop.
So, tell me, what do you do? You use Cabnetware, so I guess you run a commercial shop. Can you post some pics of your work. As anyone might guess, I got myself a new toy for Christmas - the camera that took all these photos. I'm having fun and getting some feedback.Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
Gary, send me an email - [email protected]... I'm in Santa Rosa.... I have my own shop and I do high end craftsmanship. We might be able to work together on your Healdsburg project. I'm just finishing up a job south of Sacramento and figure to be out of there in about two weeks.
Steve
Gary......
Nice Mantle......
I too work alone, some times I get a helper but I work alone for the most part.
I do mostly residential work such as Media Centers, Home offices, Kitchen Remodles but have taken on a few comercial jobs.
To tell you the truth I love those comercial jobs as they net a better profit margin.
I am presently putting a bid together for a Medical Clinic in Concord, wish me luck big guy......
I would love to post some of my work as I am very proud of it but I have yet to break down and buy a camera.
Speaking of which, what type of Camera are you using ? the quality of your pics is very good if you ask me. I havent a clue as to what to look for in a camera, but I know that when I get seriouse enough I will do some research and then break down and get one.
Anyhow, talk to you a bit later.... I need to get back to work (lunch is over).
God Bless......
Raul S
Creative Woods
Raul,
I'm taking the day off - picked up my girlfriend from the airport. She's been in Australia for two weeks, so I wouldn't think of working today.
I bought a Canon PowerShot G3. It's a 4-megapixel camera with lots of bells and whistles, many of which I need to take the time to learn - especially the white balance control. That's the one that determines how the exposure responds to the color of light. I'm learning, however, that the quality of the posted pic has as much to do with how you shrink it to an up- or downloadable size.
I've had a good time with the new toy, and I think I may use it as often as I use my Stanley block plane. What a great way to present a portfolio. I'm thinking of posting, on my website, some process shots on my current project. The site is still under construction, because I was waiting for the camera to make the photos better than the scanned-in ones there now.
I like an occasional commercial project too, so long as they're not too rushed. I built the cabinets for some Museum West stores. The one in the Stanford Mall closed recently, but that guy really put the rush on me, and I only work at one speed, which is SLOW. I've done a few others, like Palo Alto Bicycles, which was a pleasure. I still prefer working directly for homeowners, developing a close enough relationship to give them what they want. Those jobs are much more personal, and I like that.
Good luck on the Concord job. It sounds like you're in the Bay Area. Where's your shop? If you'd rather, email me.Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
What about combining frameless with face-frame? Specifically, why can't you make face frames that overhang the exterior sides of the cabinet by whatever amount suits you aesthetically. Make the insides of the face frame flush with the inside of the carcase so that you can fully take advantage of the frameless hardware and space-savings inside the cab.
Wouldn't that be the best of both worlds?
Dave
Dave,
While I'm showing off my work, here's a better shot of the curved upper you liked.Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
That's a great looking kitchen. I noticed when admiring it that the trim in the background is dark and provides a nice contrast. Do you know what kind of wood was used there or is it pine stained to a dark color?
Almost all the moldings - casing, crown, base and posts - are recycled stained VG D. Fir from the original house. It seemed a crime to the owner that they might be trashed in favor of new. So it was stained even darker to hide old and new nail holes. I didn't like the idea at first, but it's sort of grown on me. I too like the contrast.
Clients, from wealthy high end to frugal economy grade buyers, are now often recycling and using recycled wood. I worked on a Sierra ski chalet that used almost 80% recycled VG fir and redwood in all but the engineered timbers. Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
Dave
I deleted my posts . I built Cabinets for 18 years built both types. I think the frame would be easier for some one at home to build.
Hey that's just my thinking
Edited 1/10/2003 1:41:14 AM ET by ron61
Ron,
Novice here, but if I may ask a question. A couple of weeks ago I read a thread here that suggested you build the face frames first and then the carcass... any comments on that idea?
Face-frame or frameless? I think a lot depends on the look you're trying to achieve. Frameless lends itself to sleek modern designs while face frames are better suited to traditional, old-fashioned kitchens. Now, it's certainly possible to achieve a traditional look with frameless cabinets. Just take a look at the elegant kitchen in Gary's photograph. Still, this old-fashioned look requires some extra steps as Gary explains. Now, if they could just make some Euro-hinges that didn't look so clunky when you open a cabinet door.
If you build the face frames and doors first, then the box, your shop fills up slower.
BG
I'm just going to get shot down If I post anything .check with some of the experts that have posted.
I've only built Cabinets for 18 years
Ron
"I'm just going to get shot down If I post anything .check with some of the experts that have posted."
So you keep saying keep saying (sic) ron, followed some time later by deleting your own contribution. I don't think I've missed any of your posts in this thread, prior to your withdrawal of them. Do please make up your mind regarding what you want to say, and stick to it. I was rather enjoying the beginnings of testiness that were apparent in this thread. Lurking can be rewarding.
Nothing wrong with an opposite point of view as long you're willing to back it up. It makes for a thorough exchange of experience and knowledge.
I'm almost famous for being contrary, ha, ha. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
Sgian
I just don't understand they think a face frame is more difficult I know you gain space going frame less. If you have not the experience to do fairly precise work then Face frame is the way to go. Like I said before they either look very nice or very bad. I have done both stiles and do it every day.
As far as making accurate square cuts go I do belive that I'm the MAN bar none. I didn't even go to cabinet school.
There ya go let er rip
Mr. Ron the Face Frame Man
Personally, Ron, I think there are pluses and minuses to be experienced with both styles of (kitchen) cabinetry. I speak as someone that doesn't build kitchen type cabinetry of any sort (per se) for a living, but I can if I want to being more than just familiar with both styles of construction-- manufacturing kitchen cabinetry type furniture is a specialisation within the vast panoply of what a cabinetmaker is sometimes asked to tackle, from chairs, to beds, to built-ins, to desks, to shelving, etc.. You get the idea.
For a start, I'd say it's generally easier to do the face frame style of kitchen cabinetry completely on site with less advanced skills, and with a minimum of tools than it is to make the European style of kitchen cabinetry on site. You might have advanced that point of view, and made a pretty good fist of defending it. Slainte.Some stuff I've made.
I'm with you on the face frames. Easier in that there are more places to hide your fups.
If you are doing it for a living you have the patois of frameless. Frame type cover up lots of details that may be inelegant and possibly ugly. Time & materials could be far less with the frameless.
I bow to the understanding one has of the frameless but know in my mind I can't build them in my "ship in the bottle" basement shop.
I'll reread the post and see if instructions are given for this type of assembly.
Dave, the decision to go frame or frameless (traditional vs. european) is more one of a design decision than anything else. European frameless styling is more modern but the traditional frame style has certainly stood the test of time. In some schools of thought the traditional style is considered to be a furniture grade cabinet whereas the frameless are considered economical solutions with space optimization and cost being the incentives.
We are now starting to design and install a combination of the two styles. The use of a frame cabinet with european style hinges is becoming popular as well as frameless cabinets with raised panel doors, crown molding, etc. The big box stores sell homeowner install cabinets that have a lot of built in flexibility and since they produce them in large quantities they tend to be far less expensive.
Cabinet making is not extremely difficult work if you know the rules and have the right tools. If you take your time you should be able to produce a quality set of cabinets. Your starting in the right manner by asking for advice. You may also want to check out your local library for books on the subject.
As for installing them. Again, if you know the rules, the job will be easier but, as has been mentioned before, the installation process becomes difficult when the builder has not taken the time to straighten the walls, the room is out of square or the floor is uneven. To the best of my knowledge, wiggle room is not something a true cabinet maker engineers into his/her product. The use of cope techniques and custom hand fit trim is more the norm.
Hi Dave, Several years ago I had a long talk with one of the largest cabinet makers in the area and his cabinets are top notch. When I asked him about face frame versus non he said he likes the look of face frame construction but when you are in the business to make money there is a tremendous savings by eliminating the face frames. He now pushes the no frame construction by stressing the added space you pick up on each cabinet. He said face frame construction makes for a more ridid cabinet but applying the face frame and hinges is a big cost over the euro style hinges etc. I prefer the face frame and make all my cabinets that way unless a client insists on not having them.
Mel,
I've heard the argument before, that frace frame cabinets are stronger than frameless, and I disagree. Most face frame base cabinets have a web frame top, instead of a full, 3/4" thick plywood top, as on frameless cabs - mine, at least. In other words (as you know), frameless cabinets typically have five paneled sides: top and bottom, ends, and back. Assuming all parts are cut and assembled square, the carcase will be dead square. Also, it'll remain so during delivery and installation. I afix my boxes to a toe plywood sub-kick, which I level and fasten to the floor, and (typical of both cabinet styles) I attach the box to the wall through a nailer afixed to the top, back of the carcase. There it sits where it will remain square, level and plumb.
The frameless carcase has other advantages: it has fewer parts, since the top is one piece, so labor costs less. The top provides a good surface for stone, tile, and solid surface countertops, especially with an undermount sink. After cutting out for the sink's bowl, it's rim rests on the carcase top, and it's surrounded by a plywood scrap roughtop on which sets the countertop material. Then there's the space saving advantage and construction simplicity that we've already discussed.
Mine is one of three shops in a commercial complex. Ninety percent of my work is now frameless, or a variation of that style. The other two shops build traditional face frame cabinets, I believe exclusively. I think your choice boils down to the style or look you prefer, and, if you build them for a living, which segment of the market you want to cater to.Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
I agree. Also, some shops (including mine), make their frameless cabinets with a solid back (1/2" or 5/8")....no nailers, and it makes for an extremely strong, rigid cabinet. Even a 1/4 back stiffens a cabinet a lot. I think some of that lore about frameless cabs not being strong comes fom some of the large factory shops, where the backs are two pieces with a a piece of tape to cover the seam (dome to reduce shipping costs, as the backs are usually the biggest piece)....not a lot of resistance to racking.
You also have to factor in that the strength of an individual cabinet is only part of the question....each cabinet will typically be attached to other cabinets, each will be attached to the frame of the house, and they will all be tied together (bases cabinets anyway), by a countertop. It's the strength of the final assembly that's important, more so than one individual component.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
Adrian,
Although I put 1/4" ply and a 1x3 nailer on my base cabinets, I screw 3/4" ply to the backs of uppers. I might use 1/2" or 5/8", but I don't have the room in my 1600-sf shop to store too many species, grades and thicknesses. The advantages to thicker backs, as I've mentioned before in this forum, are that I'm not limited to fastening through a nailer (also, I don't like the appearance of nailers) and I can hide the screws behind or above shelves. Eliminating nailers means that labor cost's less, because there are fewer pieces to finish and assemble.
You bring up a good point about one cabinet gaining strength and stiffness from adjacent cabinets, because ends are afixed to ends. On the other hand, the point of contact on some face frame cabinet installations is just the face frame.
"'To each his own,' said the man who kissed the cow." Both cabinet styles have their place, and I'll continue to embrace frameless.
How's the weather there in Nova Scotia? I spoke to someone in Montreal yesterday who said the temp was -27 below 0!!! My son reports near zero in Toronto. Brrrrr....Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
Yup.....I use solid backs upper and lower, and eventually, everything will be 3/4" because I do commercial and residential (in Canada, 5/8 is usally residential, 3/4 is standard for commercial....I have the same space/stocking issues as you, and I'd like to be using as few types of sheet as possible). Also, like you, I do largely frameless....I'll add some frames in here and there, and if the customer wants it, they get framed. But they rarely choose framed in my experience after a discssion of the relative advantages of both.
The most striking example for me was a couple of years ago, I priced a kitchen where the designer had originally specced frameless. I priced it that way. Then they decided they wanted inset face frames, so I went backed and figured it out that way (same space, same parameters except style of cabinet). I make my framed cabinets with fairly minimal frame components ( know some shops that use 3" frame components to use cheaper, smaller doors)....still, when it came to the accessories (cutlery drawers, garbage cans, even the sinks)....I had to drop down not one, but two sizes in almost every case, to make up for all the dead space....that's how it worked out in that particular case. I was taken aback, even though I was expecting to lose space.
Weather...that would be 27 below zero Celsius (not Fahrenheit, of course)....not too, too bad, but I'm from near Ottawa originally (second coldest capital city in the world). We're getting an old fashioned Canadian winter here for the first time in a while...lots of dry snow, and fairly cold. I had to snowshoe down the hill yesterday to dig out the truck. I'll take snow over driving sleet anyday. How deep is the snow in Cali?cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.SWAY too conservative to be merely right wing
Adrian,
Do you ski? My favorite mountain, Kirkwood, is reporting a 132 - 180 ft. base. Haven't been yet, but will spend five days the end of this month.
The client/ski friend who owns the kitchen in the above photos, along with his architect, was dead set on face-frame cabs, but I somehow convinced him to buy frameless. He's most pleased now.
I never thought about how much space is lost with face frames. What bothered me most, when I used to build them, was all the extra work it was to install drawer slides and door hardware. Those face frame hinge plates from Blum, Grass or Salice (my choice) don't do near as nice a job as plates for frameless cabs.
If the client wants a face-frame style inset doors, I try to show them how I can still build frameless cabinets and give them more space and the look they're after.
Stay warm up there.Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
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