Does this price seem unreasonable? I built this 12′ cherry wall unit (see attached) for a friend, at a fraction of what a pro shop would charge. He was very pleased with it, and has asked me to build a similar unit on the opposite wall. The wall has an apr 5′ bay window in the middle. I would be building him the same cabinet/bookcases as pictured, except wider at 40″. The two cabinets would have raised panel sides for both tops and bottoms. The bay window would be trimmed in cherry with cherry raised paneling above and below. 4 1/2″ baseboard and crown molding along the top.
Now I do this stuff in my spare time, and the first unit i did cheaply because it was the first project of this type I’ve done, and because i was concerned how it would come out, especially so, since it involved a friend. As an aside, he is giving me a little extra, which is a nice thing to do. Anyway after having done several projects varying in size and complexity, i have a good idea now how fast I work and how long projects will take, so I quoted him a price of $2,600. He was not happy, and made a comment insinuating that I may be asking for an excessive amount. I know I don’t work as fast as a pro shop, but still, for a cherry unit of this size I think that’s pretty reasonable, No? I just can’t see doing it for much cheaper. I’m begining to think that for the sake of my friendship, just to avoid doing any further work, as it may foster some resentment.
I realize it’s difficult to give an opinion on price, since it veries by location, but I live in Western NY.
The pic of the original wall unit is attached in my message below. Sorry, tried swapping pics here, and couldn’t.
thanks,
Dave
Edited 1/16/2008 9:12 am ET by dperfe
Edited 1/16/2008 9:20 am ET by dperfe
Replies
Welcome to a No-Win situation. Ain't it fun?
Pic of original wall unit
How did you finish the unit. It looks nice. I just built my own mantel. Its stained but did not finish it yet. I am thinking of spraying lacquer. By the way, after what I went through to design, measure, obtain the wood, build, install, sand, stain and now finish, I wouldn't build it for someone else for less than 10k. Anytime you want to come to my house an build the same thing for $2600, let me know. For that price I will give you beer, dinner and throw in dessert!
Pocket,I sprayed a reddish brown water based dye. I don't recall the name, but it imparted a more reddish color to the cherry. I then sealed it with Bullseye sealcoat, which is a shelac sealer. This shifted the color a little toward a warm brown. I then glazed it with Behlen's burnt umber. And finished with General finishes oil urethane blend.Since then however, I've gotten more acquainted with lacquers both solvent and water based. On future projects I'll most likely use one of these. Personally, I'm really liking the Oxford waterbased lac, it dries fast and the fumes are much less noxious. BUT, on the other hand, if you're planing to use an oil based glaze, as i used, the solvent based lacquer if much more convenient because you don't have to wait 1 -2 days for the glaze to dry. Instead, you wait about an hour after applying the glaze, and shoot through it with your lacquer. It dries very quickly from there.
Guy probably hasn't a clue as to how much just the wood costs.
HI Dave,
Perhaps you could ask him to get a quote from a few other shops and then he'll see that he is getting a very good deal from you. You work looks great and my guess is that even at $2600 you will not be making much money. Another suggestion, ask him to go out and buy the sheet goods and solid cherry. He'll likely have hundreds of dollars just in materials, then ask him to consider your cost for electricity, the cost of your tools, the cost of the materials used in finishing, etc. Maybe then he'll realize that he is getting a very good deal.
Good luck.
Doug
Doug,
Thanks, I didn't think it was unreasonable, but was unsure. In fact i approached one of the well known shops in town about doing the construction for me, thinking it might be a cheaper way to go. I would then finish and install. After a couple of weeks i still havn't heard back from them, so I'm assuming their lack of interest may have to do with price. Anyway, I agree, I don't think he fully realizes what's involved.
Doug's suggestion about having your friend get a quote from a "real" shop is an excellent idea. Your friend will get an idea about the "real world" cost for his project - and so will you. When you know that, the two of you can work out a price that's fair for both of you.
My personal rule is that only direct family gets something for "free" - and "free" doesn't include materials. Really good friends get a break on my labor rate, but that includes the understanding that the delivery date is very flexible (i.e. their project is filler work and gets set aside for "real" customers. - lol)
I completely agree with everything Dave45 said and that's how I work.
If that is cherry and if that is as well-made as it looks, you are charging about half what it is worth. Don't sell yourself cheap! Tell him to shop around and get other prices - but DO NOT give him the drawings or plans!
Yes, your price is unreasonable...unreasonably low.
For comparison, Thomas Moser sells a cherry bookcase, 72"H x 36"W x 15"D, for $4850. And they, of course, have all of the economies of scale in their favor.
-Steve
As a homeowner, I'd jump at $2,600 for that unit. It's a steal.
Dave ,
For valued friends family or neighbors from my 30 years of experience my advice to you is either do it for full price or do it for free or cost .
Any thing in between can leave much room for problems that could ultimately lead to a lost or severed friendships.
dusty
My thoughts exactly:
For valued friends family or neighbors from my 30 years of experience my advice to you is either do it for full price or do it for free or cost .
You didn't say what you charged for the first one and the amount of his "tip". Seems like three options though:
1) Lower the price to what he thinks is reasonable - you'll resent
2) Stick to your guns - he'll resent. And he'll probably be more pissed if he finds this thread.
3) Withdraw gracefully and perhaps stay fiends, but no guarantee. He still got somethin for nothin. If he has someone else build the second one, regardless of the price there will be hard feelings between you.
Dave,
First, let me say "nice job". You have gotten some good advice from others. You are indeed underpriced by at least a factor of 2. Here is another way to assess price.
The basic process is to estimate labor and materials. Your material cost estimate is straightforward. For labor, think about process. First is the design time and time to procure the materials. Then the materials must be broken down and milled to size. Joinery follows. Then cleanup and sanding. Trial fits. Finishing. Repair and touch up. Installation. You can estimate the time for each step as though you were fully experienced. Add up the hours and multiply by a reasonable labor rate. I would recommend $30 per hour, assuming your estimates are for an experienced person. Add up the materials and labor and you have your price. (the labor rate includes overhead and profit) Also, you should benchmark your estimate against market pricing. Usually you will be lower. If not, re-examine your labor estimate.
I have been using this method for several years and found it to be pretty consistent.
This estimating process also provides a good tool for showing the fairness of your pricing.
Good luck, Tom.
I too think your price was unreasonably low, and you should realize that Moser's cherry bookcase wasn't a custom unit, as was yours for your "friend." Without running the numbers for your design (I'd have to draw it), my price for that finished and installed unit would likely top $10,000.
This brings up the question of how to approach any customer, friend or not, during the preliminary "selling" stage of his project. During good financial times, I sometimes charge for estimates, or at least I work with a "price planning proposal," where I get paid if later the client wants to go elsewhere for a lower bid. I still use price planning during these near recessionary times, although all but the wealthier clients will likely go elsewhere, since there are many hungry woodworkers out there. An alternative is to ask the client what his budget is for his potential project. Most balk, thinking they'd get a better price by working the bidding circuit. However, if your friend told me he could afford to spend $2,000, then I'd probably tell him he should find anothere maker, and I'd save myself the headache.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
Thanks all. Yes the potential for resentment for one or both of us does way heavily. I just don't think he fully realizes the costs and the work involved. When he gets a better understanding he may be a bit disappointed but I doubt there'd be any further issue. He's been one of my closest friends for over 20 years, so I'm not too worried about ending a friendship. We've been PO'd at each other plenty in the past, but still, it's not fun so I'd rather avoid it. The other thing, I think someone was alluding to. He's always got a beer ready, frequently offers dinner when I'm visiting around that time, and has never asked me for gas money when we go boating during the summer. So no, I don't mind at all giving a discount, it's just a matter of how much. But from what I'm gathering, it does appear I may be knocking too much off. Yes, he is giving me a bit extra for the first unit, but no it doesn't come close what it's probably worth. I will refrain from saying just how much I charged for that first unit for fear of embarrassment, but lets just say, it bought me free boat rides the rest of my life ;) I'll just have him call a shop and get an estimate for the project. I don't like the idea, because it's not fair to the shop, but that may be the only way to determine a market price. Further regarding price though, I recall conversation I had with a trim carpenter who did some work for me several years ago. He was going to build a cherry entertainment center for a customer (about 6 to 8ft in length, i think) and asked me about building the doors for him. He said he was struggling to find a way to keep the price under 2k, which he couldn't do. But the fact he was willing to do something close to that for a cherry unit actually stuck in my mind, and, was something I thought about when I was considering this price. I just wonder if these trim guys do this stuff on the cheap for people? I thought this intriguing so I mention it. Thanks again peopleEdited 1/16/2008 1:14 pm ET by dperfe
Edited 1/16/2008 1:19 pm ET by dperfe
Dave,
One last thing. Jeff Heath often posts on this site and he makes these sorts of built ins for a living. He can also tell you, as others have, what such a unit could likely cost. Given that information, perhaps you could show your frield what the professionals on this site have said they would charge. That way, your friend would know that he is getting a great deal.
There is nothing wrong with you covering your costs and perhaps making a little bit to buy another tool or some more lumber. I think that your friend will realize what a great deal he is getting if you share this thread with him
Good luck.
Doug
Thanks Doug, I think I will show him this thread.
dp ,
O.K. I had some time to think today at my installation from heck , here is what I heard you say in this post .
The beer is always offered , your always welcome for dinner , if you just happen to be there at that time drinking a beer .
Boating in the fair weather , never having to share the expense of the day .
Those are a few big items to some , actually this neighbor indeed sounds like a friend .
Maybe he figures it is a way for you to reciprocate , maybe it is ?
Suppose you took the first part and divided it into lineal feet or square footage of face or cabinetry and divided the total to come up with a number like hey you paid $85 per foot on the other wall now we have 7 feet more so the price to be consistent will be X amount of dollars .
how many other friends or neighbors make the same offer to you ?
dusty,,, who values true friendship
Thanks again all, for your perspectives and suggestions.
Have him get some estimates at professional shop. I'm sure they will be considerably more. You also might create a spread sheet or price breakdown for him so he better understands the cost. Then if he doesn't realize the position he's putting you in, he's blatantly trying to take advantage of you, and he's not much of a friend to begin with, don't do the job. Period. I don't have much tolerance for 'friends' like this.
Jeff
You are definitely not out of line! I've built a number of furniture pieces around home and I've heard comments from friends and family that I should build to sell. My usual response is for such and such I would have to charge $1,500 (pick a number) just to pay for raw materials and make minimum wage. Shuts them up real quick!
T.Z.
When I do jobs for friends I usually charge hourly + materials.
I keep a list of my hours, day's, expenses and what was accomplished. this keeps the arguments at bay (at least for me!)
I found that even though I'm charging 30 bucks an hour after a few run ins with other contractors and cabinet makers they're more than willing to pay me and consider it well worth the expense.
Most of my work (by the way) is fixing others mistakes or shoddy workmanship!
It seems like most people want to get in, get on and get off! I guess they don't care about referrals.
ChaimMake your own mistakes not someone elses, this is a good way to be original !
maybe you should read the one minute MBA. It was only published darn near 20 years ago. If you've never had a complaint about yer prices, yer not charging enuf.A complaint or two is validation, but you gotta be prepared to deal with it as wellAnd as for working with neighbours. You got yer work to do, you also got yer neighbourly visiting to do. two seperate things. But yer neighbours gotta take you seriously. You charge for yer work at the going rate, you don't charge for visiting.....and as for folks wanting to "get in, get done, and get off" well buddy, the fact that yer workin for a neighbour makes you gotta pay attention even more so to that ethic, cause it's the only way yer gonna come up in balance with yer neighbours expectation of their bill for yer services. The balance is the important thing. Don't charge enuf, and next thing you know everyone in the neighbourhood is calling you expecting a "deal"; and yu know what, next time yu pay the bill for the truck tune up, send a wack of cash fer yer Workers comp bill or contractors insurance, heck, even pay yer utility bill, just look behind you and I'll tell you that what you won't see is every one of them folks that you gave a break or a deal to standing behind you just salivating to throw cash at you to pay yer bills. Fella, it just don't happen. Moreover, one of them neighbours gets PO'dabout something or other , and next thing you know you got the bylaw #### tacking notices of violations which inevitably cost you bucks or effort to conform and comply to some anonymous and non-specified complaint. All I know is that once I started charging my neighbours what I charged my clients, the frivolous tasks just vanished. Not that I wouldn't assist the widder wimmen, lend tools to the DIY folks, but now they realize that they cannot borrow my tools for three months, or just call me up to drop over and have me "rebuild my deck" for 50 bucks. Nope- now they take me seriously.Just my thoughts.Eric
in Calgary
He may have started as a friend but when I see your work.....I think he is simply trying to take advantage of you.
Your time and talent are worth the price YOU set for them. Do not be swayed. If he wants in, then that is the price, period.
Nice of you to consider his feelings and you friendship but he doesn't seem to be reciprocating.
You owe no one any excuses.
just my 2cw
...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...Be kind to your children....they will choose your nursing home....aim low boys, they're ridin' shetland ponies !!
dperfe
I'll throw my .02 in the ring. Actually, since there has been quite a lot of good advice already, it's probably only worth .01.
As mentioned, I build alot of these types of units for a living. It seems almost all I do, lately.
Working for friends is tricky. There are friends. There are good friends. And, there are best buddies. Noone here can tell you how good of a friend this guy is. You have to answer that. If he's that good of a friend, it should be pretty easy for you to reason with him, regarding costs of material, finishing, and time.
Your design is nice, yet straight forward, and not too difficult to construct. My projects range in price from $800 to $1200 per linear foot for installed cabinetry. Flatwork, like raised panel wainscotting, and fireplace mantels, can be a little less, unless extremely intricate with alot of detail.
I don't recall seeing any sizes for this project listed, but $2600.00 for this, in cherry, is rediculously low, anywhere in the US. No professional cabinet shop or one man road gang with any experience will touch it for that, unless they are starving. And, if they do, they won't be in business very long.
I'll include 3 pictures. The first, a fireplace mantel, was a house warming gift to my best friend and his wife when he built his new home. The other two were jobs he hired me to do after. I gave him a 20% discount off my normal pricing. The total was $13,600.00, and this was early 2006. They are 18 feet long combined. Hopefully, this will give you something to show your friend.
Good luck, and at all costs, including forgetting the job, keep your friend.
Jeff
Very nice work.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
Much obliged, Mr. Green.
Jethro
Like in Tull or Max Baer (Beverly Hillbillies)? :-)
I tend to think more Tullish based on your obvious talent.
Best Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob
LOL. Definately Tull, as I'm a huge Jethro Tull fan. I've done road trips for 15 hours where I load up the CD's, and listen to nothing but Tull. I've got them all.
My nickname around here with friends is Jethro.
Now, that's not to say that I wouldn't mind spending some time with the likes of Ellie May.
:>)
Jeff
Jeff,
I have held a pretty high opinion of you for quite a while just from reading your posts and seeing your work.... but now that I know you are a Jethro Tull fan my esteem for you has risen to a level that would be difficult to measure. :)
In the shuffling madness.....
Rob
Ian Anderson is also a very successful Salmon farmer. It..just..doesn't get any better...Jeff (the other Jeff),,,;-)
Rob,
I don't know what I did to earn those kind words, but I humbly thank you. I'll see if Ian Anderson and the gang will play at a summer barbeque for us.......Well, since that's not happening, I'll just make sure the music selection playing will have plenty of Tull in it.
Holy crap, is it cold today...........-3°, and that's in the sun. Wind chill is at -30°. That 400 foot walk to the shop this morning was never longer, or colder. Well, it's back to work for me.....breaks over.
Jeff
See you this summer, eh!!
3 deg???? Now I know why I'm where I'm at this time o the year!
James
You missed the minus (-) sign!Frosty"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
+3 or -3 Still too cold for my old bones!!
James
Jeff,
Thanks a lot man!
Ya send me that crappy cold weather, it was -14° this morning when I got ready to go to work! On top of Mt. Washington it was -24° with 80 mph winds giving a wind chill of -74°!
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob
I couldn't get my shop over 54° yesterday. It was -9°. Should be a wee bit warmer today.
Jeff
-9 outside, 54 inside. What is this, the knots version of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
Thanks for that hammerandhand.
I'd kill for -9 and 54 in the shop. When I got to work on Monday it was 22 inside the building and we had to put the tarps back up that blocked out the outside air that the wind had blown down over the weekend (seriously) :^) You kids nowadays with your high tech heaters and such... what is this world coming too....
Rob
That's a bloody heat wave! It was -20° here this morning. In the woodshop it was only -10° so I went to work instead.
-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
What did you finish your work with? I am finishing a mantel I built.
Jeff,
I will have to concur with Don. Very nice work. Glad to see you weighed in on the thread - I think your perspective gives an apples to apples comparison for the OP, with realistic pricing from a professional.
Cheers,
Lee
Hey, Lee
What are the chances you're gonna wander up to Illinois this summer for a good ole' fashion hog roast. Or, maybe we'll just drink beer and burn some steaks. What'ya say??
Jeff
Jeff,
If I thought I could get away, I'd be there in a heartbeat. I'd love to see your shop up close and get some sage business advice. I also have a zillion questions about those built-ins - wouldn't mind seeing one up close to see how all the pieces go together.
Cheers,
Lee
very nice work. now they need you to commission a piece to hide that big tv :)
Stick to your Guns! I always said set a price you can live with it and be prepared to walk away. It is difficult when friendship is involved, but doing it for free does not make sense either. Guessing at materials, you priced your labor pretty cheap, so tell him your price is discounted because he is a friend, or as suggested tell him to get a comercial shop price it. Graciously bow out and say you would not feel good if he took your quote and not feel good about it. No true friendship is worth it, but you should not be taken advantage of to keep a friend. If that's required, he's no friend.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
This is obviously rank speculation on my part, but I don't think there is anything personal in your friend's response. The reality is probably that he does not have a clue about pricing woodworking. But he does know that since he is not making such a ton of money that it would be responsible to spend $2,600 for bookshelves. In other words, he probably trusts you enough that he does not need to get a cabinet maker to tell him that $2,600 is cheap. His disappointment is more about the fact his dream living room is out of his reach. Bottom line: tell him the truth. You built the first wall for him as a challenge to yourself and because it sounded like a cool thing to do at the time, and you are very happy that it came out so well and that you could bestow such a gift on him. But, whether he knows it or not, it took more time and effort than you could possibly have imagined, and you know now that it ain't something a sane person would do a second time just for the experience of it. Then find out what he wants to spend, and come up with a more living room improvement in his price range, or not.
Fark,Your speculation is a pretty damn close assessment. "You built the first wall for him as a challenge to yourself and because it sounded like a cool thing to do at the time...and you know now that it ain't something a sane person would do a second time" Yes and it also involved several of those free beers, and one of us blurting out in a moment of inspiration, "Hey, wouldn't it be a good idea if..." Never again.
Now I see why I never charge friends $$$ for anything! Friends & $$ don't mix, unless it's for $2-3 bucks on the golf course. Some things I make I'd probably only make .25 hr.
James
Your scenario is why I never take $$ from a friend for woodworking! I do it for -0- or not at all & keep friends!
James
Your friend is very cheap, cheap, cheap.
For what you just built shop price would be around $10,000plus
Your friend is displeased with the comparisson to the price of the first project, not to what it would cost at a commercial shop. The first project was a learning experience for you, this one is not. At your level, the business (money part) of woodworking changes so fast that it will be astonishing to customers (unless they compare your price to others), who are, hopefully, real friends--who will support your work and not expect a favor the second time. This is why we work for friends at this stage! i.e., those who would appreciate seeing you grow, not resent it. I have a kitchen coming up that will hopefully go that way . . . If your friend doesn't want it, don't kill yourself for nothing. Build something for you own house.
Brian.
I had an 'acquaintance' (not a true friend) stop by one day. He took a look at some shop cabinets I was building and asked if I would build him a narrow and deep floor to ceiling cabinet to fit in an awkward space. It seems he felt the local shop bids were a bit high (a huge warning bell went off when he said this).
I sketched up a plan and mulled it over a bit. I came up with a number that would cover materials but seriously, seriously discount my labor. I didn't want the job so I gave him the sketch and passed, but before I did I asked him what the other bids were. They were the same or slightly less than my number! Most likely there would have been a quality difference (plus I was going to install and finish the unit), but my guess is I would have come across in his eyes as 'greedy'. My acquaintance didn't have a clue as to material cost or labor requirements.
I agree with the others, make them pay for materials (and maybe a new tool if you need it to do the job) or charge them full boat pricing. The last thing you want to do is strain a friendship. In addition, you don't want the reputation of a guy who will build things for cheap.
Picture this: Your friend throws a party and the guests are all admiring the wonderful cherry wall unit. Your friend 'does you a favor' by telling all the guests that this wonderful craftsman named dperfe built it and for only XX dollars! Now you have a raft of potential clients expecting something for nothing. When you quote them your full price, they’ll be mad and tell everyone how dperfe is a rip-off artist. Make it clear to your friend you charged him for materials only or this may come back to bite you.
Dave,
I love doing woodwork for my friends, usually all I charge them for is materials (that scares about half of them away anyway!) and a nice dinner when I deliver the item. I’m comfortable with it because I enjoy the work, I do it at my pace, and I only do projects that are interesting to me.
If I read your e-mail correctly you’re not a pro. Regardless of the quality of your work, this does put you in a different situation. Pro’s have much higher overhead, and of course they have to make a profit. Hobbyists just have to cover the materials cost, and add a comfort amount in. Comparing costs to a pro shop isn’t really grounded in the reality of the situation. For a hobbyist there is no quick calculation, and frankly if you’re happy you can work for nothing.
Further, you are talking about a friend. Friendship itself has a value that far exceeds the small amount of profit you may make. Trying to make a quick buck off your friends isn’t cool, however you shouldn’t feel ripped off either. You have to base your price on what your spare time is worth, and the value of the friendship.
You seem to be a little put out by your friend’s comments. If he’s a good friend you should be able to tell him what you’re basing your price on. Sending him to a pro shop to see how much they charge isn’t going to change his mind. After all you are friends, and you have set a precedent on the previous piece. Given that he tipped you on the last one, I can assume that he does place value in your work. In the end if you feel that $2600 is a fair price, stick to it. Don’t let him sway you to go lower, and don’t let the guys around here convince you to higher. If he’s a true friend, you’ll work something out.
Buster
Dave,
I would agree with what most others have mentioned. I would only add a couple thoughts.
1. I no longer have friends, I treat everyone as a client. This has unfortunately been learned through past experiences. The only people that get something for nothing is my wife and my parents and even they end up waiting forever because they get pushed aside for the paying customer!
2. I don't think I would be a penny under 5k
I always say if I am going to work for nothing then I am going to build something for me or my family:)
RJ
Just as an update. I had a conversation with my friend and I think we're on the same page now. He understood that the first project was under priced, but didn't realize to what extent, and wasn't anticipating as much of a difference. He has a better understanding and appreciation for the amount of work and money involved now. thanks again.
dperfe,
Sounds like a great ending. Glad to hear there were no hard feelings and the friendship is still intact. As others have stated, that is probably the most important aspect of the deal. Hopefully you can still give him a discount you are comfortable with but make a profit at the same time.
Cheers,
Lee
Ask the "friend" to purchase all of the lumber, hardware, sandpaper, finish and pay for time use on your tools(electricity) And make a written agreement that He will pay you for your labor with like time labor(paint your house, mow your lawn, rake your leaves or what ever you wish) See how well that flies!! ;-) I'll bet not far. I say your being too generous.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
We build and sell this kind of unit all the time. Our rates are $800-1200+ per foot, with additional cost for cherry, but less cost for simpler mantles. $10-12K is not unreasonable. The cost includes installation, which is usually a full day for two persons (more if we are installing a hearth and stone fireplace surround).
I saw your picture. Your friend should jump at this. From what I see he is getting a great deal for the price you are asking. It probably should be double what you quoted.
I read a book a few years ago about starting a woodworking business.
Rule number one was. Don't build anything for family or friends. They think you are over charging them. They want Wal-Mart prices for your very time consuming custom work.
I've had similar experiences. Most notably was after I was working a new job for a year and still doing some cabinet work on the side. A friend who also happened to be my supervisor asked me to help him w/ his kitchen design. He also wanted me to bid the job. He told me several times to design it like it was my own (ie, top shelf). I repeatedly cautioned him that I would use top grade materials on my own because that would be my own main expense. I quoted him a price that was about 70% of what I would normally charge. He accused me of trying to rip him off! I did not do his job, have been reluctant to bid on jobs for friends since. I also never ask friends to give me good deals on good/ services from their businesses. Your time is your life and is not free. Value your life and the lives of others. If your "friend" doesn't value your life, then maybe he's not much of a friend.
One of the reasons I got "out of woodworking" over twenty years ago was that my friends were expecting me to make them things for free. I can't count all that I did. My wife used to "volunteer my services" to her friends as well. Fortunately my memory is "failing" somewhat in that area. Not enough, however, to get caught up in doing it all again.. When I started talking about getting back into it they started again. I quickly let them know, as politely as I could, that I wasn't doing any projects for others. My list of projects was already fairly long and I was going to do those things first that I've been wanting to do. While I'm sure that my friends may not be "happy" with me, I've decided that thats there problem, not mine. Yes, this Christmas I did take some time out to make presents for some friends and I enjoyed doing it. They were not expecting anything like what I made and were elated. I made the items on my terms not theirs.
I do work for other folks all the time..
I do my time for free BUT they pay for materials and ANY extras I run into.. (Except family)..
It appears you've convinced him that $2,600 is a fair price for the work.
Sounds like your 'friend' has you right where he wants you.
What's your over/under on what was actually charged for the completed/pictured surround? $1600?
..... If even that, Matt.
dperfe.
If you are satisfied with your price, and you still want to do your friend a favor, do as many have suggested before and have a third party bid the job.
If , as I suspect, the price is reasonable and you want to proceed, why not try bartering with him. That will only work if you need something he provides in the way of goods and/or services. But it's a great system when both parties can work something out.
The concept of having a "third party", otherwise known as a professional cabinetmaker, bid out the job is, to say the least, way off base, and rediculous. Why should a cabinet shop, whether it be a big shop, or just a one man show, waste their valuable time taking the time to properly bid a job that doesn't exist.
Think about the time of the professional, and how much time of his/hers is wasted, just to prove a point to a friend.
Very unethical, coming from a guy who doesn't appreciate it when his time is wasted.
Whatever you do for a living, I'm pretty sure you don't want to have your valuable time wasted and taken away from a task that can actually put food on your table.
Consider that.
Jeff
"UNCLE!"
I give... I was just echoing what others before me have said. However, you are exactly right-on about wasting anothers' time in bidding this project.
After re-reading the original post, I think we can agree that the $2600 is too low. The poster is still willing to do the job for that price, but the customer/friend is afraid it's too high. If this customer is really a friend, the OP should back away from the job--explaining that the friendship is more important that the project.
At that time, the customer will undoubtedly seek out other bids and only then realize the value of the OP's pricing.
Respectfully,
Terry"She wrote a long letter, on a short piece of paper." Traveling Wilburys
Edited 1/22/2008 10:56 am by doorboy
Dave,
Stick with your guns here or you will regret it. I also think you will regret the price you have given him. Back in the summer I did a bookcase job for a contractor friend of mine and I only charged $2000.00 for a floor to ceiling 13' long set of four shelves all trimmed out with a single face frame. I am not saying I did not enjoy the money, but it was way too little. Looking back at my time and everything, I should have charged around $10,000.
Stick with the price or don't do it. When he prices this at local cabinet shops he will see what a steal he is getting from you. Do not raise your price now, you have to stick to your price. Just do it if he wants to and after this is done politely refuse doing anything for friends.
Just my $0.02,
Rob Hix
Yes, I do plan to be firm. For this project however, since I did offer him the two cases, raised paneling and trim work for the $2600 I do feel a certain sense of obligation to stick to that. But future work be offered at a much more competitive price, as people have mentioned.
Friends and family. The WORST people to do business with. If I do for them, it's gratis or nothing at all.
It's a typical scenario. Everybody else's job look easy, until it becomes OUR job.
Everyone wants something for nothing, it seems. Generally these same individuals tend to only value their own time (as in what they would charge for their work). Your "friend" is trying to take advantage of you. He is looking for a sweet deal. However the cold hard facts are that friendship will not pay the bills. And his house has appreciated in value because of what you have already done for him, and would appreciate more as a result of additional work. You have a right to be fairly compensated for your time/skills/knowledge and the materials involved. And let's not forget about all of the overhead involved due to tool and shop ownership/use. You do great work. Don't let your "friend" guilt you into working for less then you are worth. If he insists in cheapening the friendship then he is showing you the true worth of the relationship, from his perspective.
One last bit of advice that my wife says and I have learned is cold, hard reality. You really learn the truth about people when it comes to money.
Edited 1/24/2008 4:08 am by BigK
^^^cold, hard, and unfortunately, true. Your wife is a wise woman.
You really learn the truth about people when it comes to money.
Your right. There is nothing worse than a person who value money over friendship...
I must apologize to everyone, I screwed up the quote. It should read "You really learn the truth about people when it comes to their money."
And to really bring out the worst in people, get them into probating an estate of a relative.'nother bigK39610.76 in reply to 39610.75 BigK
I must apologize to everyone, I screwed up the quote. It should read "You really learn the truth about people when it comes to their money."
Boy, did you hit that nail square on the head. I am experiencing that one right now.
With eyes wide open, I'm starting a woodworking business. As many of my friends have seen my work, they are naturally interested in having me build some pieces for them.
Luckily I'm in no rush to jump on these first jobs (for a number of reasons), but I have put quite a bit of thought into this dilemma of doing work for friends. What I've realized is that probably 99% of the time, one's friends have never bought custom work, so they are comparing your work to what they might see in large retail store. Even if it's a high end furniture store, these are still not "custom" pieces.
I think this revalation has made me realize that the first thing when this topic comes up is education about what custom really entails (especially things like design time, cost and quality of materials, consummables, etc). Most importantly being happy to NOT do the job is critical in this situation.
Carl
I had an interesting experience. My oldest stepson (40 years old, and has never woodworked) decides he wants to make a bench for storing his kids' sneaks 'n stuff in his garage.
I says to him, "Johnny, you can buy this thing for 150 bucks."
"No," he says. "I wanna build my own. It'll just take a coupla hours, right?"
Well, I thought, since I've made things for him like a kitchen table and a grandfather clock and a rocking horse, I'll teach him a little lesson.
I told him to go out and buy x amount board feet of poplar, which he did, then returned and complained it cost him over a hunnert dollars for the wood. So, he came over one night, which we spent dimensioning the lumber. Then we spent two more nights gluing up panels. The another two nights scraping and sanding panels. Then another night making mortises and tenons, and so on and so on.
Finally, at the eleventh night we put the last coat of paint on it, and he admitted to me he had no idea how much money and time furniture making entailed.
But I enjoyed doing it with him anyway. And he got an education.
And that education was tuition free!!!!!!!!!!!1Government's view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
"being happy not to do the job"
That is profound in a nutshell. My wife and I have had a paint contracting business for 12 years and I heard a similar "pearl" from one of our close associates. "You will make more money NOT doing the bad jobs than you will DOING the good jobs".
Regards,
Mack "WISH IN ONE HAND, S--T IN THE OTHER AND SEE WHICH FILLS UP FIRST"
Every time I did a piece for a friend it was asking for trouble and I got it.
I wont do work for a friend or family unless it's a gift.
The way to communicate the value of your time is to talk about what your friend will be doing with his time while you are working on this project.
If he is a friend, as opposed to an acquaintance, then I would basically ask him to buy the materials and shop supplies (including new saw blades) and be a present and active participant in every stage of the project--construction and installation. If he were to do that, then my time would be free. I would consider it a friendship-building activity and try to enjoy the time with him and the sense of accomplishment.
If he is interested in your working alone, then it would be a different story altogether. I would ask what he is going to be doing while you are working and then ask him to put a value on those activities--how much would it take to make him give up the game or dinner with the family or going to his daughter's recital.
To all,
Granddad used to say, "when money changes hands with a friend, you loose the money and the friend".
Granddad used to say, "when money changes hands with a friend, you loose the money and the friend".TRUE... But not always.. My wife always wanted MORE money..BUT she spent it on her Children! I was OK with that! I could not get her to buy new underware or anything else for herself! She was the PERFECT WIFE! Only got on my case if I deserved it.. which was often!
To the OP: Do yourself a favor and simply ask your friend to pay for the materials and supplies. Do the labor for nothing. The price you quoted is so ridiculously low that it becomes problamatic. You will feel better simply giving your time away so do that.To the guys living in cold climates with cold shops: Last week it was about -7 here but my shop is always a comfortable 67. Haven't you all heard of central heat, insulation, and electronic controls?
Haven't you all heard of central heat, insulation, and electronic controls?
Ya see Mr. sapwood, I work a full time job during the day and so I can't justify the cost to keep the woodshop heated all day to use it for maybe 3 hrs. at night. Now next year when I retire that might be a different matter.
Now, if you would like to subsidize my heating oil bill I'd be much obliged!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
67 deg???? That's what my garage was this morning............with the door open!!
James
Ppphhhhlllllaaaaatttttt!
It was -32°F when I left for work this AM! And, we're supposed to get almost a foot of snow starting tonight.
I don't wanna wish you any bad luck but I hope your AC goes on the fritz!
:-)
Just kidding,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob: Good news!! Won't need the A/C for a few. It's gonna be in the lo-mid 70's Ha-Ha-Ha This is why we get out of MI from Oct. to May.
James
Like that PpppppllllLLLaaaattttt of yours.
Edited 2/29/2008 11:26 pm ET by JamesS
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