Good evening,
We are currently reproducing a set of bookshelves that sit in an original Craftsman house. I remember seeing an article somewhere about how to get that wonderful 80+ year old look to the finish. I believe it was a finish mixed with a certain amount of used motor oil per decade you wanted it to age. Any ideas? Other methods? It is very important that it match exactly, as it is a restoration. Thanks!
Joy
Replies
I belive it was Wood mag. a year or so back. wrote on this topic.
they added roofing tar and stain together to make a nice fumed Oak look.
I will look and try to find the article. but it was roofing tar not motor oil,that they used.
C.A.G.
You are so right! It was Wood Magazine! Thanks so much!
Happy Spring!
Joy
The tar finish is a poor man's substitute for Gilsonite, which is a special kind of asphalt used in wood stains. Some of the production stains I used 30 years ago contained it, but the manufacturers always warned that it could cause adhesion problems with subsequent coats, probably because it never really hardens at room temperature & stays kind of sticky if not wiped off real well..
Motor oil in a stain would be even a worse choice because it would tend to seep out for years, just as some of the penetrating oils stains from a long time back used to do. I doubt whether you could get a topcoat to adhere to it, either.
If it were mine to do, I would first try matching the color with TransTint stains, and probably use a little glaze after sealing if i needed to "age" it a bit.
A quick and dirty method I have heard about for getting a fumed look with oak is to just dampen the wood with household ammonia. I haven't actually done this myself, preferring dyes for that kind of job, but you might want to try it on some scrap to see whether it gives the look you want, and what kind of grain raising problems you might encounter.
Whatever method you choose, be sure experiment with scraps until you are sure you have just the look you want. That might seem obvious, but you'd be surprised how many people run into trouble because they don't want to take the time to be sure of their method.
Michael R
Thanks for the great advice. It never hurts to remind each other of the value (in more ways than one) of testing and samples!! I'm thinking the household ammonia might just appeal to my adventureous spirit, even if I go with one of the other ideas that have been generated.
Thanks,
Joy
I wouldn't mess around with either motor oil or roofing tar. You'll likely have problems matching the color, and could introduce a bunch of other problems. Find Jeff Jewitt's site, and try his Arts & Crafts finish.
Depending on what you're trying to match, a lot of different stains would work, but a lot of people have great results with Jeff's procedure. Since it's multiple steps you have a lot of control over the exact shading. You can also mix aniline dyes in shellac to tone to just the right shade.
What you want is a predictable procedure, not some magic formula using an odd material.
my $.02
Bob Lang
http://www.craftsmanplans.com
Thanks for the info Bob. I think we are a little freaked out by the "matching exactly" because of the restorative nature of this project. Jeff's site is wonderful and I hadn't even known it existed! This forum is fantastic!
Joy
I agree, I've tride Jeff Jewitts recipe on a couple of different projects and each has turned out beautiful and antique looking, pretty easy to follow also.
R13
What material are you using to build the bookshelves? What are you trying to match in the house -- the doors and trim, or some built-in furniture, or some other stand-alone furniture already in the home? What wood was used to construct the pieces you're trying to match? I think we're all assuming white oak is your material of choice. But plenty of craftsman style homes were trimmed in redwood or fir or even red oak, so the steps to matching those materials are significantly different than the steps to matching a finish on white oak.
You need to define "that wonderful 80+ year old look to the finish" in terms of colors with respect to the wood that was used on the pieces you want to match. If it's white oak you're trying to match, typically the colors will be described as some base shade of brown with yellow/golden hue or a reddish hue or an amber/orange hue. Real fumed oak might even have a greenish cast. Occasionally the open pores of oak will have been filled with a black filler to create a a flat surface to achieve a smooth finish. Sometimes the grain is obscured by a darker or black glaze. Doors and woodwork in white oak can look markedly different than stand-alone arts & crafts furniture because finishers might have used heavier pigment stains on the trim rather than the more transparent aniline dyes or fuming techniques used to finish furniture. Any and all of these effects can be achieved using modern finishing techniques and materials.
Try searching this forum using a combination of these keywords: "craftsman," "arts and crafts," "mission," and "finish." You'll find a number of discussions addressing this topic, and most will address the issue of finishing white oak to resemble older furniture in the arts & crafts style.
tony b.
Tony,
What material are you using to build the bookshelves? We are using white oak as that is what the original was built from.
What are you trying to match in the house? We are trying to match the bookcases that are already built in around the fireplace including the mullins in the doors and "old" glass.
You need to define "that wonderful 80+ year old look to the finish" in terms of colors with respect to the wood that was used on the pieces you want to match. I would have to describe it as reddish brown with yellow undertones.
Doors and woodwork in white oak can look markedly different than stand-alone arts & crafts furniture because finishers might have used heavier pigment stains on the trim rather than the more transparent aniline dyes or fuming techniques used to finish furniture. Any and all of these effects can be achieved using modern finishing techniques and materials. Proof I still have much to learn. The exciting thing is that there will always be more to learn in finshing.
Try searching this forum using a combination of these keywords: "craftsman," "arts and crafts," "mission," and "finish." You'll find a number of discussions addressing this topic, and most will address the issue of finishing white oak to resemble older furniture in the arts & crafts style. I am so new to this forum, I didn't realize there was a search function. Thanks so much for sharing. I know before I found this site, I had weeded through countless searches for those same keywords and had come up with many suppliers for furniture, but none on how to get the finished look we need.
Tony, Thanks so much for taking the time to reply.
I agree with Bob.
No pre-set formula is going to match your restoration project. Read Jewitt's books..on staining, toning, dyeing, pore filling, etc and then purchase several tonalities of dye stains and experiment.
As you test, be sure to complete the finish all the way through the final topcoat w/out skipping steps. It'll help you to get it exact!
lp
Thanks!
When you select your material, be sure to avoid pieces that have any sapwood. Or work around the sapwood and use those pieces for parts that won't be seen. Depending on the finish, the sapwood of white oak can absorb stains and dyes differently than the heartwood leaving an obvious color change in a single piece of material.
You should read about the differences between dyes and stains particularly the advantages and disadvantages of oil, alcohol, and water soluble dyes. Also, learn the advantages and disadvantages of the various oil based topcoats as well as lacquer and shellac.
Without seeing the actual color, I can only give a "shoot from the hip" reply based on your answers. Let me point you in a couple of directions based on past experiences. If you're willing to invest a few dollars and some of your time, I have two possible solutions that will take you down a path towards the colors you want.
In the past, I've used Jeff Jewitt's Transtint Dye in Dark Mission Brown (from his Homestead Finishing website) and Moser's aniline dyes (available from Woodcraft Supply). Using the Transtint dye followed by a garnet shellac, I was able to get a dark brown base color from the dye with the reddish hue from the shellac. Unfortunately, I'm not very good with shellac and the one piece I finished like this never looked as good as I would have liked.
Mosers "Dark Fumed Oak" is available as a water-soluble or oil-soluble powder. I've used both the water and oil soluble variety and they both yield the same color -- a deep, dark brown with a reddish hue that closely resembles a number of original Stickley and Limbert pieces that I have seen or owned. On top of this, I've used Minwax Antique Oil Finish, Tung Oil, Bartley's Gel Varnish or Watco Natural Danish Oil on a number of different pieces and I've been happy with that color and topcoat. I've also experimented with using Watco Danish Oil in Dark Walnut, Black Walnut and Golden Oak as well as an amber shellac on top of the aniline dye and that gives a variety of highlights and occasionally pushes the color a different direction.
Much of what you will learn about finishing is from trial and error. And ALL of the wisdom I have gained has came entirely from the errors! You can spend about $50-100 dollars on a variety of dyes, stains, tinted oils, and varnishes and gain a lifetime of knowledge in just a weekend of experiments.
Good luck and good skill!
tony b.
Tony,
Thanks for putting us on the right track! Your suggestions will be invaluable here in the next couple of days! I had no idea tints were available!
Happy Spring!
Joy
I have finished a great many pieces of white oak furniture and accessories over the years. Virtually all of these were done with the intent of recreating the finishes from the early Arts and Crafts makers, as they appear on vintage pieces viewed today.
I agree with most of the comments in this thread as pertains to using modern materials rather than attempting to fume and so on. Let me share my technique with you because I find that most woodworkers fall short when it come to finishing their projects. I think you will be able to work with this technique to achieve the tonality that you desire for a particular piece. As usual, practice on some small scraps first.
Absolutley the most important part of a beautiful "mission" finish is the primary tone or patina that is imparted by using an analine dye as a first step. This water-based dye will raise the grain, but I avoid this by wetting and sanding the piece first..then dyeing. The dye color will look awful when it is dry, but the wet version is a hint of the final finish. You will restore look of the wet version of the color by wiping the dry dyed surface with Watco clear oil finish. Each step in this finsh assumes overnight drying time after each process. (You can cheat on this if you do it outdoors).
What you have now is the basic character of the finish. If you want golden oak use light oak dye; dark as chocolate, use dark mission brown; more of a chestnut, use medium red-brown dye. All get the oil applied second.
Now you must seal the finsh as it is. I use spray sanding sealer because I like to sand at this point to get rid of the "fuzzies" left from the dye and oil. Shellac sprayed from a can works ok, but doesnt sand as well. Your finish is about half done and should start to look promising.
Now comes an important step to achieving an authentic craftsman look. For a really dramatic effect that will pop the flake grain pattern out of the white oak, apply black or really dark brown gel stain with a rag and let it sit for about ten minutes. Now remove as much of the gel stain as you can rub off, and you will be amazed at the results. Let dry, and do not sand the stained surface or you will sand through the gel and dye. If you leave some stain in crevices and corners you can have a more aged look. This is what professionals do with glazes.
The last step is your option of clear finishes. My personal choice is pre-catalyzed satin or flat lacquer sprayed from a gun. A wiping varnish finish will work also but may remove some of the gel stain. Shellac is a more traditional finish that works well. Really good paste beeswax imparts a rich antique glow.
There you go. My pieces reside in one of the really good arts & crafts furniture stores and hold up very well to the look and performace of those done by the other artisans. I hope this finishing method is rewarding for you as well.
Thank you for your rich information! We will definately try your method. We have lots of furniture to build. Any ideas on how to darken a finish that has clear coat already on it? I mixed the stain using the dyes and got as close as anyone would ever come. Then my darling hubby applied sanding seal before staining and then went ahead and applied three coats of clear coat thinking (wrongly) that each successive coat would darken it slightly. I really don't want to have to strip it. Any other possibilities?
Thanks!
Joy
Joy,
If you are unhappy, start over...its no big deal...just sand it down. Remember just one coat of sealer over the dye+oil. Sand it lightly, then put on your stain. This is the step where you can play with tone...add stain, remove stain if needed with mineral spirits, use a second stain, etc. You are basically looking at your final color by now. Let that all dry weell and then use your clear coat of choice. By the way, do not use Deft brand spray lacquer. This is a very easily scuffed and scratched finish. The lacquers from Behlens or Mohawk are professional quality and very reasonable. Just Google Behlens finishes. You can set a water glass right on them without leaving a ring. Lacquers are unique that way. Lacquers are very hazardous and smelly and not good for the environment however, so a wiping poly /oil from General finishes may be better for you.
Joy, I read an article somewhere on finishing by George Frank, and he spoke of fuming oak. I'm not sure, but I don't think household ammonia was what to use, more of an industrial strength ammonia. I've played around with samples doing this, actual fuming, and the results are very interesting. It's dangerous, as I'm sure you know, and I'm not saying to do it. But I took the prescribed precautions, and the samples I made have been ingrained in my memory, and one day I will make a whole piece using this technique. It's really a nice coloring for white oak.
Interesting thread.
My father is an chemistry professor. When I discussed with him the possibility of using used motor oil as a finish, he noted that it would actually cause accelerated decay of the wood due to acids produced by the presence of ferrous compounds oxidising the wood. He told me to mix gallon of chlorine bleach with four gallons of used motor oil then allow it to settle and decant the resultant clarified oil. Then he suggested I add "a bit" of styrene to the oil to add hardening capability.
I haven't done this. Instead I followed another recipe of his (from the Mid 1930's) by dissolving hard roofing tar in solvent then mixing that with danish oil. That has yielded the best results so far. Adding a bit of styrene to the mix facilitates hardening of the finish a bit, but I have never needed it as the tar I found (hard at room temp and sold in a 100 pound block wrapped in a paper tube) was never tacky or gummy in the finish or on the piece. I do note that hard roof tars vary quite a bit in color and you may need to shop around a bit before you find one with a pleasing color.
Tony, I believe Watco Danish Oil BLACK Walnut actually contains Gilsonite (naturally occurring ashphaltum) and will deliver similar results to your (dad's!) roofing tar formulation. However, there is tremendous historical value in mixing your own in order to understand how old masters and modern manufacturers arrive at their results.
Fuming followed by Watco Dark Walnut or Black Walnut Danish Oil produces a very pleasing, deep, rich almost transparent brown color with black highlights and a touch of yellow/gold in the ray-flake on quartersawn oak.
tony b.
Now that is an interesting approach: fume, then stain. I'll have to try that on something. I like the fuming process and love the results; it is indispensable if you want the appearance of old wood, because it is the only way to darken the rays. Staining causes too much contrast and highlights the pores too much for my taste. (BTW, industrial-strength ammonia is NOT required, though it may speed things up.)
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Staining causes too much contrast and highlights the pores too much for my taste.
I think that is a function of the technique and type of solvent you use. I use TransTint stains let down in alcohol, acetone/MEK, or lacquer thinner with just a tiny bit of lacquer in it. By using different solvents and varying the way I spray and wipe (or not) I can get any level of contrast I want.
Problem with fuming for me, apart from the time and bother, is that it is almost impossible to get wood that matches from board to board when fumed. Using dye stains, I have complete control over the results, and I would defy anyone to tell the difference from fumed.
If I want to develop the grain and pore figure, I use pigmented stains and glazes as needed, over the dye stain.
I'm not saying that fuming is a bad way to go, but rather that since I have to please customers in a limited time, dye stains are a lot more pactical for me.
Michael R
Dye stains are indeed faster and easier than fuming, no question about it. I have not been able to exactly reproduce the look of fumed wood with dyes, though I have not tried the TransTints. I tried Star NGR dye and it stained the ground a lot more than the rays - great if that's the look you want, which most people do, but not at all what old wood looks like. Fuming colors both the rays and the ground more or less evenly; it is like an accelerated aging process.I'd love to see your technique and results. Where are you? [Edit: OK, I see you are one of the few who has such information in your profile. Any chance you might get up to Montana for Lee's festival? We could compare results!]"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einsteinhttp://www.albionworks.net
Edited 4/1/2005 5:18 pm ET by AlbionWood
Any chance you might get up to Montana for Lee's festival? We could compare results!]
Sorry, can't make it to Montana, although it looks like fun.
For the flattest look possible, dilute some TransTint with acetone, spray "dry" coats, and don't wipe. It'll probably be too flat even for you, but you can modulate the contrast by wetter coats, slower solvents, and lightly wiping for maximum contrast. If you really want a LOT of contrast, use a less penetrating solvent like water or alcohol, and sand after the stain dries.
Do ten test panels with varying solvents and techniques. and you will learn just about everything I could show you about dye stains. If you try it, let me know how it comes out.
Michael R
One thing to remember is that fuming was only used by a few manufacturers of mission and A&C furniture. The great majority did not fume their pieces because of the danger of the process. Certainly, nothing built into a home of the period was fumed.
Dyes and stains are perfectly appropriate for that period furniture or built-ins.
Fuming also can deliver rather uneven shading since each component of a finished furniture piece will be from different portions of several boards. The ammonia used for this purpose is the strength used by blueprint makers. NEVER AMMONIA FUME IN A BASEMENT OR ATTACHED GARAGE. Make a plastic tent and do it outdoors. I do not recommend this technique for darkening any wood...use dyes instead...Stickley did.
Remember an attached garage, if it is to code, will not let fumes get into the house. A code safe garage has to be a vapor barrier for CO from cars, and you must have fire resistant door between garage and house. I wouldn't loose too much sleep over fuming in a garage - especially if you open the door(s) and use a fuming chamber.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
Here's a more pictoral approach.
First, set the background with a waterbased gel stain (easy to apply without blotching). (Pic "Background stain")
After a light scuff sand, overlay with a dark danish oil, gilsonite, motor oil, bbq drippings, etc... (Pic "Porestain")
Wipe clean, give it a week to dry. Coat with the hard finish of choice. (Pic "finishedproduct")
Always make some samples (Pic " sampleboard")
The sample board had 4 different background stains. The top half of the board was then porestained with Watco "Dark Walnut." The right half of each quadrant then got a quick daub of shellac.
Vary the background stain to match the "light" or rayfleck part of the wood, and choose the porestain for the pores. You can get a huge range with this simple technique, and it's much more controllable and reproducable then fuming.
-t
Thanks for the "Cliff Notes" version and the great pictures. Very nice piece (a trunk) with dovetails! By the way I need a lid stay exactly like the one in the photo. Did you make that or are they available from a craftsman. It appears to be hand wrought. If you made it would you consider making one more? Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Thanks for your kind comments. I can't get too excited about the look of such a long row of machine cut dovetails, but I had to get the piece out of the way quickly... The stays came from Lee Valley:http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/page.aspx?c=2&p=41909&cat=3,41427And I think most woodworkers find their 200+ page "hardware" catalog a real treat... it just goes on and on! I had to mock-up the stay angle and depth a few times to get the right results - the geometry to figure that out precisely has long since left my head. I had to modify the "cradle" for the accompanying knick-knack box, so it's worth keeping in mind that both sides of the case will need clearance for the stays.Best of luck,-t
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