Afternoon.. New to the forum (sorta… :>)…) and after many years of use, deep-sixed my PC 333 sander as I flat wore it out. That puts me in the market for a newbie. Looking at several variiable speeds, but have not kept up with reviews. Having a look at the PC 5″, Bosch 5″ and the Metabo 6″.
After reading the review in FW, it gives me some in-sight into the 5″ models. Looking for feed-back on anyone that has used a 6″ Metabo or Rigid 6″ and can make a comparison to a 5″ they have or have used. Any problems with variable controls, etc. ?
Thanks in advance…
grinder47 (aka.. SARGE.. JT.. you name it.. he…. howdy Forestgirl! How are ya?)
Edited 6/24/2006 2:56 pm ET by grinder47
Replies
HI Sarge,
I use a Makita 6" random orbital sander with the Festool paper for most jobs, and finish with a hand cork block. Sorry - the thing's locked away at the moment, so I can't get you a model number.
[edit - to directly answer the question in a roundabout way]
My experience with Metabo has been that they're pretty well built, but don't take too kindly to regular or long use - these are other tools such as drills, not sanders. The 6" is a bigger pad, but you can get more usable pressure on a 5" as compared to a 6" sander as your weight's bearing on a smaller surface (approx 30% smaller surface). So they take about the same time to do the initial cleanup, but the 6" is quicker when you're finish sanding.
Trust that all else is well.
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 6/24/2006 3:20 pm by eddiefromAustralia
Thanks for the reply, Eddie. And yes, all is well indeed.
I had given thought to the extra surface the 6" en-compasses and if that would not be counter-acted by the additional amps. But the max rotation speed is the same, so you probably have a valid point about the weight distribution spread.
Me thinks I will take a test spin one at Highland Hardware here in Atlanta before dropping any money on the counter. Time saved by adding quantity is not a major concern for me with quality and dependability being more of a priority.
Again... cheers and have a good winter day mate
grinder47..
Test spin them all if possible and let us know what you think. I had the luxury of being able to use every tool in the store and it was an eye opener. Take your own wood whose characteristics you are familiar with.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
G,
I can recommend Festool 6" based on 5 years personal experience - they are robust and efficient, especially if connected to the vacuum. But they are also expensive.
Although I never used a Metabo dual speed 6" RO personally, I have a friend who is professional tiler/plasterer and he swears by his. The jobs he used the tool for are not kind to sanders (tons of dust and grit of the sharp kind) but he has used the Metabo for near 3 years on a daily basis with no problems except the need to replace the pad from time to time.
Hope this helps
Lataxe
Thanks Lataxe.... I could not argue about Festool while standing on solid ground. The comments about your friend using it dependably around the dust and debri created by the tile, etc. did not go unheard. That's similar to walking point in enemy dominated territory. ha.. ha...
Have a good day...
grinder47..
Edited 6/24/2006 8:51 pm ET by grinder47
I have the Metabo 6" 450 Duo. I love this machine, very smooth and powerful. Dust collection is very good with the included bag and nothing get away when it's hooked to a vac. I have had no problems with the variable speed and I have found the dual orbit size very handy. 1/4" for really whaling stuff off and 1/8" for finer work. I've had it for about 4 years.
Thanks, dgreen. You response was what I hoped for. Easier to look a gift horse in the mouth when you have prior knowledge from someone that has owned the same breed and taken it through the paces for 4 years.
Have a good day...
grinder47
I have the dewalt 6" ROS and it has worked well, the only problems I have had with it are dust getting in the on off switch. If money was not an issue I would get festol. I think there sander vac combo would be a big step up.
Good luck
troy
If I did it every day, all day; the festool would pay for the difference in price. I build work-benchs during the summer (hand-planes and scrapers for the most part) and the fall and early winter see's a very heavy small project increase. But not enough to warrant the Festool price. Kind of like me purchasing a Ferrari and the speed limit is 70 MPH. :>)
Thanks for your reply...
grinder47..
I'm very happy with my Rigid 5", and one of the other finish carps uses a 6" Rigid.
The consensus in our bunch is that the PCs break too early. My last one had the electrical die after less than 6 months. Bought a Ryobi next, it was a piece of junk. The Rigid is well made and I like the little extras: the light in the plug to show you it's on (great if you're working in new construction and not all outlets are live); and the velcro cord wrap. Wish more of my corded tools had that feature.
Funny you mention the PC electrical problems, Pondfish. I have heard em, read about em but never had a problem with a 5 year old 333. Replacing the pad on it is the extent of the problems I had, which will eventually happen on all if you work them long and hard. I just flat used mine till every ounce of life was drained. But I am wary of another PC because of what you mentioned.
The Rigid 6" is the Metabo 6", me thinks. Without taking the case off and mic'ing inside parts, they appear to be made by Metabo. Either that or Home Depot's supplier stole the blue-prints.
Any difficulty getting various grits of sand-paper disc for the 6"??
Thanks for the response...
grinder47..
Recently got rid of my 333 as the bearings went south. Great sander prior to that though.
Mine went south when I loaned it (don't ever do that) to a desperate soul at my part time work. She said she had so much sanding to do and that hand sanding would take forever. What she didn't say that she had bought a fixer house and put up new sheet-rock and repaired holes in existing. She wasn't exactly a pro and didn't know how to smooth out the excess of putty with a puttly knife when she applied it causing globs.
Ooooouch....... O D'ed on sheet rock dust... RIP little PC 333... ha.. ha...
Regards...
grinder47.. SARGE
PS.. You're quite welcome John... nothing worse than sanding while your loaded.. :>)
"Mine went south when I loaned it"
Grinder,
Looks like a refresher course might be in order for your friend.
Three things you never as ask to borrow from a man:
His tools
His truck
His wife
Not necessarily in that order. ROFL
Sorry to hear about the (choke, choke) dusty death of your ROS.Regard it as just as desirable to build a chicken house as to build a cathedral. Frank Lloyd Wright
Only technically dead, Rennie. Still breathing on life support, but probably time to pull the plug! I will give it credit for fighting till the last amp was squeezed from the main-frame. A ceremonial burial with horse and funeral carriage around the neighborhood is only benefitting.
Hard to find horses and carriage these days, though. I think I will send an E-mail to Budwieser and see if the Clydesdale's and their wagon are free for the coming week-end. ha.. ha...
Regards...
grinder47..SARGE
In my part of the world he might lend his wife and children - dont ask for his horse or his dog.
My Porter Cable 333 is just over 4 years old. It just works and works and works. It does exactly what it's supposed to do.
I use the hook and loop base. I had the adhesive style at first, changed it out, instant improvement.
For the money (about $100 at HD), one of the best values in equipment I have.
Rich
Afternoon, Rich. Interesting about you having no trouble with your 333 also. I know of locals that have had trouble, but none on mine ???... Life's a mystery, I suppose.
I found out something interesting today. The Rigid 2610 6" is the Metabo with made in Germany stamped on-board. I went to HD to look at one. Sitting on top of the display was a Ridgid 2610. The sign said so, but I noticed differences from the Metabo.
Examined it and it was a Ridgid 2611 made in China with a cloth cylindrical dust bag. The air vents on top ran in a different direction. The base plate looked as if it had been hammered from a thin Chinese beer can. The handle had a different feel and had a slight design change. Two boxes of them under-neath the shelf with the shelf sign saying 2610.
Went to another HD and same scenario. Called two more and same. The Ridgid 2610 has been replaced by the Ridgid 2611 Made in China and same price. Imagine that. Went home and called 3 more HD's b-4 I found one that had a 2610 left. It got buried under newer stock without being rotated up.
It's now in my shop. At that price, regardless if I like the 6" or not; I invested the $139 to get the "Big Orange" Metabo made in Germany. I can sell it easily enough if I'm not happy and replace with a 5" Bosch, Makita or PC. No thank you on the Chinese model. If they use the same metal they use in their rifle barrels and quality of machining, that sander spells doom. :>)
Regards...
grinder47..
the sander i reach for 9 out of 10 times is the 6" festool with the 1/8" orbit...
contrary to popular opinion, you shouldn't have to bear down on a RO to make it work...the festool will sand as aggressively as you would like with very little pressure..
there is less felt vibration with the festool than with any other sander i have ever used bar none...this may not sem like a big deal at first, but after a few hours sanding you realize that you can still feel your arm...
I don't care what any magazine tool review tells you, dust collection with the festool sander connected to their vaccum is second to none...period. I've noticed that open grain wood that might have dust in the grain before sanding will actually have less dust on it when i am finished sanding than when i started...the large hole in the middle of the pad lets so much air pass through that it's not even funny...
the price is higher than some, but a RO sander is not exactly the most expensive piece of equipment in the world in the first place, and it is more than well worth it in my opinion...you owe it to yourself to at least try one out before you buy something else...
Festool seems to have taken dust extraction and containment to a high art. I hope I can someday justify the purchase of some of their green machines. The last dealer I spoke to (Woodcraft) warned me, though, that all his customers' wives steal the systainers once they see them.
Rich
Rich.
Wife-women stealing systainers! You need to booby trap them, with mangas or worse!!
I echo the praise for the Festool 3mm orbit 150mm diameter sander (to quote its natural dimensions). :-) It does clean as it sands and you can almost let it loose by itself to do its thing, with only a finger or two to keep it on the work. I like also its three different pads - super soft, slightly soft and rock hard, which will not sandover edges and flattens bumps like a belt sander.
I have the large delta sander too (more like a clothes iron in shape and size). This rascal can be made to suck a vertical panel so hard, with the vacuum, that it stays up by itself. Why would you want to do that? Because you can.
Lataxe, nevertheless having a go at scraping for a change
I bought a Festool detail sander and 20l vac last yer - cost a fortune but I have managed to forget that because it does all that I ask. I have also used their 6" ROS without dust extraction on a reasonable amount of hard plaster wall up to 15' (the house is victorian so imperial measurement is acceptable) Tool was smooth enought to use for long periods and didnt miss a beat. Paper lasted well even without dust extraction. The tool was not new and its owner is not good at looking after tools (he may be my brother but I'd rather lend him a my children -he takes care of them). It seems very robust and was the deciding factor in my purchase of the detail sander.
cscwem..
From what I experienced yesterday, I will agree that the the difference in area will not affect the amount of pressure applied. I have used an old PC 333 for many years and never applied pressure. Just guided and kept it moving. The big 6" weight twice as much as the 5" in general (2.5# vs 6# +) and that relates to natural gravity.
I have used Festool (not the sander) and they make excellent machines. If I was running a pro shop, the extra cost would be justified. I'm just not sure I need that much state of art. I got heavy sanding covered with a 4" and 3" belt on the rare occasion that I use them. My stock has been through a jointer and planer before it hits the work-bench. I use a scraper at that point. I can finish with a functional ROS using 150-180-220 grit generally.
And I do agree that dust is something that needs to be kept under control. I hook directly to a 2 1/2 HP Shop Vac with a HEPA and the vast majority is eliminated.
Thanks for your reply...
grinder47.. aka SARGE
I have 2 dewalt 5" sanders. One is Variable speed, other not. They work fine. Dust collection seems good when hooked up to a vac, and OK using the cloth bag. Although the bag falls off the sander easily.
Only advice I have is don't spend extra for variable speed. I keep them cranked up all the time.
Mike
Pardon my spelling,
Mike
Make sure that your next project is beyond your skill and requires tools you don't have. You won't regret it.
Evening Mike...
I have used a PC 333 fixed speed for the last 5 years and it worked great. I never use the attach cannister, but instead hook directly to a Shop Vac 2 1/2 hp. Drape the hose over my shoulder as in a fireman's carry. That way you control the hose and not vice versa. That hose can be an Anaconda after a meal if you allow it too.
BTW.. you might try attaching a small strip of "duct tape" partially on the neck and on the bag receptacle. The PC is notorious for the hose slipping off the attachment neck, especially if you snag the hose (refer back to the over the shoulder method). If Cya can't fix something with "duct tape", you probably can't fix it. ha.. ha...
I want to try the variable speed. With hard-wood, the full steam ahead is fine. But I do work with donated soft-wood shorts for charity purposes and I want to see if the slower speed will eliminate some of the loading without having to change paper as often. Is there a difference in price at the pump for the more expensive variable? Yes.. Can it be off-set by more fuel mileage by cutting the cost of paper? Don't know.. but I'm going to find out. Guess you might say I like to tinker a bit. :>)
Regards...
grinder.. aka SARGE
I don't know that it will save you any money on abrasives if the standard used is amount of material abraded off before the paper is consumed, but I have found var. spd. useful for control and finesse. Useful enough to justify the extra cost? Your mileage may vary. Mine spend most of their time at full tilt boogie with only the tool for weight and me just for guidance but on the occasions I needed to slow it down the feature was worth it's weight.
Since the house is on fire let us warm ourselves. ~Italian Proverb
Do those big rubber "erasers" people use to clean drum sanders, work on ROS's as well? Do the cleaners work on ordinary sanding blocks?My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I have always run mine at full tilt also. And I will get more build-up on abrasive with soft-wood than hard-wood. This is due to the soft-wood containing more resins even when properly dried ( I work all stock between 8%-12% moisture content).
Is it going to happen at both high speed and low speed, or will the lower speed decrease the loading on the paper? Higher speed will increase heating of the stock by friction. Does the increase in heat relate to increase in release of resin or is it in-significant? I have an educated guess, but assumption on my part is not the formula I use to reach bottom line.
I don't know the answer to this but...... I will soon. :>)
P.S. John... the eraser you mention will work on a ROS and hand-held block. You can get a larger square one mounted on a wooden platform at Highland Hardware or other various places. I added an extra piece to the platform making a leg that turns down 90 degrees. Stick that leg in a vice on my work-bench and the platform sits flat and secure on the top. Touch it briefly with the base of my ROS occasionally and back to work on the stock.
Regards...
grinder47.. SARGE
Edited 6/27/2006 10:51 am ET by grinder47
Thanks for the thumbs-up on the cleaner. Will give it a shot.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Ditto Sarge on the erasers, I have three of them stragically located about the shop and use them every time any of the sanders are used, I'am cheap skate and push the papers to the limit.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
In the days when I played with cars we hand sanded largely because the speed of power tools we had available simply melted the surface rather than cutting it. I have found that higher speeds seem OK on wood, but if being used for and finish you take the speed down and use finer grits (there seems to be an inverse relationship between grit and speed)
Dave
I tend to agree, Patto. Been around a few body shops as I still do part time work with American Muscle Cars after I sold my company. Go to high a grit at high speed on certain wood and you burnish the surface pores is my conclusion. That can relate to extreme difficulty holding an oil or dye stain.
Your statement brought back memories. Give a novice a buffer with an un-cured paint job also and you might just be looking at a few camouflage spots here and there. OK for military, but nasty for car buffs. ha.. ha...
Regards...
grinder47.. SARGE
i also own a porter cable, but rarely use it anymore....the best way i have found to keep the hose on was to
1...buy a second hose, only about $15
2...cut a slit out of the plastic end of the hose that fits over the dust port so that the ID of the hose without the material you just removed from the slit is about 1/16" less than the OD of the dust port...
3...put about 5 or 6 rubber O-rings over the end of the hose that allow the hose end to compress tightly around the dust extractor...
the slit allows the hose to slip completely ove the dust extraction port and around the stiffening rib on the top of the port...the O-rings put signifigant pressure on both the port directly and they cause the sides of the slit to compress against the stiffening rib...it then takes a great amount of effort to pull the dust hose off even when you want to...
since i only used that sander in conjunction with my shop vac, i actually taped the sander cord and the hose together every 6" all the way down their length so that they were not always getting tangled up in each other...
after having done all of that i thought i had a pretty efficient dust collection method for my sander...until I got the Festool and realized what efficient dust collection really was...there really isn't even a comparison...
I agree that your method to attach the hose will work. On the PC, a simple small step adaptor will work well also. I will still wrap a piece of duct tape around it (I have an addiction to duct tape). ha.. ha...
I will take your word about the Festool and the dust. But.. I still can't justify the price at this point. Now if I could just come over and borrow yours... do you have a BBQ grill outside by the shop? :>)
Regards...
grinder47..SARGE
I don't know about 6 in. machines, but I own a 5 in. Festool Rotex. You need one of these. On the orbital setting, it rivals my belt sander for agressiveness. And on the random orbit setting, it creates a surface that rivals Venus de Milo's tuckus.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
i've been looking at he rotex...now that's a chunk of change...does the orbital setting really cut that much more aggressively than the 6" with coarser paper? does it cut aggessively enough to replace your belt sander all together? do you use it with a vac? if so how is the dust collection when you are really hogging off a lot of material? have you used the orbital setting for buffing out finishes yet? if so how does it do?
i appreciate any information you can provide as i am really intrigued by the capabilities of this machine.
I don't know how it compares to a 6 in. ro sander. But since I bought it, I haven't taken my belt sander off the shelf. Partly, that's because the Rotek is just so much nicer a machine to use. It's quiet, light, and you're not fighting the belt sander's pull. But I'd hazard a guess that it equals my P-C 3x21 belt sander.
Case in point. I just finished a qswo stair. I had to edge glue the stock for 14 treads, and I did all the levelling with a Stanley #5 and a Rotek.
I think I go through more discs than belts, but the cost is probably close to a wash.
The dust collection is outstanding, even with coarse discs on.
Edit: I've not used it to buff out finishes.
Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Edited 6/29/2006 6:49 pm ET by Andy_Engel
I've got the new 6'' rotex and I think it removes material quicker than my Mak belt sander.
I have the Metabo 5 incher, and really like it. It didn't make the FWW test, probably because Metabo doesn't advertise enough in FWW and doesn't have a huge market here. It's too bad, it's a really nice tool.
I picked mine up on Ebay, for around the same cost as your old PC.
The OLD Rigid 6 inch ROS was made by Metabo, although the newer ones are made in China POS. Who knows, you may be able to find an old Metabo out there, perhaps on sale as a floor model.
I think you missed the post above that I discovered that the old Rigid 2600 is now the Rigid 2610 Made in China when I went to get one. Went to two more HD's (I live in Atlanta and have 6 within a 15 mile radius) and all they had was the 2610. Went home and got on the horn. A tool dept. employee found one (2600 Metabo) under-neath some of the newer 2610 stock and called me back.
It's in my shop now with Made in W. Germany boldly displayed. Works great and I couldn't be more pleased at this point. Time will tell, but I have a feeling she will be around for awhile.
Regards...
SARGE.. g-47
Edited 7/20/2006 10:04 am ET by SARGEgrinder47
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