Replies

1. 
   PADDYDAHAT | Oct 20, 2006 05:15am | #1

   Mel, not to add confusion but each does as they are succesful with, for each type of polishing. I use a delta 1" x 30 " with a leather belt charged with green compound for smaller flat blades, shaped hard felt wheels on my variable speed  lathe arbor for shaped lathe and carving tools and the list goes on.... live and learn, Pat

1. 
   9619 | Oct 20, 2006 07:35pm | #7

   Pat,
   Being eclectic is the key to happiness. I too am using different methods, and am trying a few more. The journey is more important than the destination. Each year my tools get sharper, but my expectations get higher. Ain't life grand?
   Thanks,
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   PADDYDAHAT | Oct 21, 2006 06:38am | #12

   Mel, I am delighted , you got the message, don't fret, it isn't worth the sweat. I do serious plane irons and fine chisels  on water stones, then to the strop or belt . The big old slicks go to the old Arkansaw stones , the fine shaped edges you know about. I may spend a Sunday  afternoon on my porch (jawin with my neighbors /sharing a little good juice) rubbing those irons. Life is indeed very good but  in a crisis any good edge method is the correct one if it gets the job done. All the best, Pat

1. 
   9619 | Oct 21, 2006 01:49pm | #13

   Pat,
   Over at the Old Wood Working Machines website, they use the term "arn" a lot. It took me a few minutes to figure out that it meant "iron". I like arn better. So to put it in the OWWM terminology, I am not interested in sharpenin' my arn's any better, just in spendin less time and energy in honin' my arns.Keep the faith (the woodworkin faith, of course),
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

1. 
   user-211435 | Oct 22, 2006 12:14am | #14

   9619,

   I once spotted a sign in southern Oregon once that said "FUR WOOD."  I don't remember the price per cord though.

   Hal

2. 
   dgreen | Oct 22, 2006 12:18am | #15

   Probably priced per pelt foot. The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)

3. 
   PADDYDAHAT | Oct 22, 2006 03:14am | #16

   Mel, as I spend more time in East TN prior to my final move, I have had to sharpen my fast NY ears to hear "taters" or "maters"  when presented with "our" little new spuds or heritage tomatoes home grown with my seeds by my fine neighbors as a joint venture. It's unlikely that I will run out of any crop that is current or fresh home made bread. We gather on my porch late in the afternoon and I make sure that my shop fridge is at least half full of PBR's and have on hand a taste of some very old Irish -single pot still- to relive a little congestion every now and then if required. Enjoy,  Pat

   BTW, I now expect to hear from Ray. pfh

   Edited 10/21/2006 8:20 pm ET by PADDYDAHAT

4. 
   9619 | Oct 22, 2006 03:47am | #18

   Pat,
   You will enjoy Tennessee. Soon you will learn to speak the language. Ray can help you out better than I can. Just remember that "Y'all" is singular, and "All y'all" is plural. "Y'all's" is singular posessive."Y'all hurry back, y'heah." = "You all hurry back, do you hear."I'll never forget when I moved Dothan, Alabama. The secretary in our office asked me what I did over the weekend. I told her that we drove up north to Birmingham." She corrected me very quickly, saying, "Down heah we don't refer to Birmingham as being "Up North". After growing up in Connecticut, and going to college in Washington, DC, Storrs, CT, and State College, PA, Mary Beth and I spent one year in Binghampton, NY in 1970, and the rest of the time in various locations in the South. I knew that I had been transplanted when I had a Moon Pie and an RC Cola for breakfast. Let us know what you think of TN when you get there. We have vacationed there and had a great time.
   Enjoy.
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

5. 
   pzgren | Oct 23, 2006 06:04am | #26

   Pat, <<...and I make sure that my shop fridge is at least half full of PBR's and have on hand a taste of some very old Irish -single pot still- to relive a little congestion every now and then if required.>> Aye, Laddae, there's little that a wee dram o' poteen cannae cure.... ;-) Na Starovia!Tschüß!

   Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!

   James

6. 
   PADDYDAHAT | Oct 23, 2006 06:34am | #27

   Ya shouldn't take poteen lightly as we had one of the lads- a stand up fellow- tasting mine and some from Dublin(in a plain jar) most of a Saturday afternoon at a pig pickin. About 7:10 P.M. he was fine and very conversational, at about 7: 15 P.M. he fell over while attempting to discard his paper plate in a trash can like you had hit him in the head with a sledge hammer (like the guy on the tricycle on laugh in) a perfect 90 degree fall to the port side -out cold thankfully on the grass.

   He was not again barely conversational till 3:00 P.M. on Sunday(I think he missed church) and, I hear not functional till 6 or 7 in the evening. Dangerous stuff dat poteen. Enjoy, Paddy

7. 
   trialnut | Nov 01, 2006 03:34pm | #32

   Pat

   Next time you are down that way, on 11w between Rogersville and Bean Station look for a road on the north side called Tater Hill Rd.  That was one of the many that used to amuse me in that area.

   RichThe Professional Termite

8. 
   PADDYDAHAT | Nov 01, 2006 11:09pm | #34

   Mr. Nut, i'm going down @ 11/20 to 12/15 with the Unisaw. I pass Bean Sta. on my way to Knoxville. I guess?? that's where the Tater's are? Pat

   Edited 11/1/2006 4:17 pm ET by PADDYDAHAT

2. 
   derekcohen | Oct 20, 2006 09:02am | #2

   Hi Mel

   I use, or am experimenting with, several strops for final honing. Eventually I will write an article on this, but for now I will just offer a few observations and choices.

   Point #1 is that the firmness of the strops' surface determines the amount of dubbing that can occur, with a soft surface more likely to dub an edge than a hard surface will.

   Point #2 is that a dubbing is best avoided when the substratum conforms closely to the bevel angle. Therefore the substratum when stropping the blade for a carving or lathe chisel, which may have a rounded bevel, will differ from the substratum for a plane or chisel bevel, which is flat.

   Obviously a soft surface will conform more readily to a curved bevel, so this is a better choice in such circumstances (i.e. for carving  chisels). On the other hand the flat bevels of a chisel or plane blade will benefit from a hard, non-giving surface.

   Excellent hard surface strops may be made from MDF, hardwood, hard felt, and some leather. Be careful of just using any leather - all leather will compact and a thicker piece is likely to do so more.

   The strop that I use most is either a piece of MDF with Veritas green rouge scribbled over it or a piece of thin leather contact glued to a hardwood substratum. To hone I pull (freehand) the blade backward towards myself.

   I have a few motorized strops as well. These range from a hard felt wheel on a high speed grinder to a hard leather wheel on a drill press to a leather-covered sanding disk that is part of a disk sander (FWW is going to run this one plus my grinding jig for a belt sander in the January magazine). One could also use a lathe face plate to do this. The type of leather I would recommend is a piece of chamois (from any auto store) which is then stretch and contact glued to a hard surface. This is great for holding the rouge but minimizes give. In all cases the blade is applied freehand.

   Which works best? Actually for me the hand-held one does. The disk sander is really excellent, and the hard felt wheel comes in third. I am about to try MDF and hardwood wheels, so cannot comment on these yet. I also have not used my hard leather wheel for a while, so it is difficult to compare.

   I like using strops while I work. They intrude far less than having to re-hone the edge.

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

1. 
   9619 | Oct 20, 2006 07:26pm | #5

   Derek,
   I really appreciate your response. Thank you for the info on your current research on honing. I will look forward to the published article. I have a store-bought strop that I have had for a long time, but it is about time to scrap it. It is a thick piece of leather that does compress. I have a lot of scrap leather and I will make one out of a piece of chamois and a piece of MDF as you suggest. I will use that for my bench chisels.For my carving tools, I will try a felt wheel on my hand-crank grinder. TJ McDermott told me that he uses the medium hardness felt wheel for both the chisels and gauges he uses for carving. In his recent FWW article, he said he uses the soft felt wheel, but when I corresponded with him, he said that he really meant the medium wheel. It let him get a good result on gauges as well as carving chisels, since it has a little "give". Given the beauty of his carvings, and the success he has achieved for decades, I conclude that if it works for him, it will be more than good enough for me. Your two "points" are well taken. The physics of sharpening dictates that a bevel will be dubbed more by a softer wheel than a harder one. McDermott pointed out that he doesn't hone for more than a few seconds. So I am guessing that pragmatics is as much a part of this as physics. The medium felt wheel is a compromise from perfection, but it really works well in actual practice.Thank you,
   MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

2. 
   testtest | Oct 21, 2006 04:38am | #8

   Derek,
   I hope you get a chance to use some strops made of Horse Butt leather - it was the traditional leather of choice (at least in the US) for strops and is rock hard (and very unforgiving). I love the stuff. joel

1. 
   derekcohen | Oct 21, 2006 06:13am | #9

   Hi Joel

   Re: Horse Butt leather

   Thanks for that piece of info. I wonder if it is easily available locally. Do you stock this?

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

1. 
   testtest | Oct 21, 2006 06:17am | #10

   Derek,
   We do stock strops made of it (and we have shipping a fair number down under over the years - they are very popular) but you might be able to locate some locally - check with your leather suppliers. - it's acutally a different type of leather than is found on the rest of the horse of other bovine creatures. No give at all and sometimes up to 3/16" thick. joel

1. 
   derekcohen | Oct 21, 2006 06:33am | #11

   Thanks again Joel. I will try and access some soon.

   Derek

    

2. 
   alanplanesaw | Oct 22, 2006 03:33am | #17

   Joel,

   Can you describe more about the leather you are talking about?  You said you "stock" it.  Where and how do we purchase some?

   Thanks,

   Alan - planesaw

3. 
   testtest | Oct 22, 2006 04:05am | #19

   Alan,
   I don't know the policy here at knots if I can post a url.
   but I own toolsforworkingwood.com and we stock horse butt strops under sharpening supplies. I found out about horse butt from a friend who collects antique sharpening equipment including strops and said all the best ones he had were marked "horse butt" so we got some and did a test and we loved them. joel

4. 
   nikkiwood | Oct 22, 2006 05:58pm | #20

   the censors here get a little funny about that, but they don't mind if a regular old poster (me) gives the link:http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/However, I looked in the sharpening section of your site, and I could not find the horse butt strop you refer to. FOR OTHER READERS: you should check out the above site; there are many items that are not commonly available.********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

5. 
   testtest | Oct 22, 2006 06:02pm | #21

   It's in the oilstone sharpening section part number: MS-HORSEST (or do a search on horse butt)

6. 
   nikkiwood | Oct 22, 2006 06:18pm | #22

   Found it (horse butt strop):http://tinyurl.com/wp8r4I have been shopping Auriou rasps for sometime, and I looked through the info on your site. It would be helpful to know which of the grain designations for Auriou most closely approximates the Nicholson #49 and #50. BTW, I ordered one of your catalogs, and again, I urge everybody to have a look at your site. Aside from the breadth of offerings, there is a lot of stuff here that is hard to find anywhere else.http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

7. 
   testtest | Oct 22, 2006 09:40pm | #23

   THanks for you nice comments on our site. THe problem with relating the nicholosons to the Aurious is even a #9 grain auriou, which is pretty middle of the road by Auriou standards will cut faster and smoother than either #49 and #50.
   What I typcially suggest is that you use the nicholsons for what they are - and they are really nice rasps, and fill out shorter and finer, or longer and coarser rasps with the aurious. Our own rasps are also a nice complement to the nicholsons too. joel

8. 
   nikkiwood | Oct 23, 2006 12:28am | #24

   Here's the problem: for my purposes, the #49 Nicholson is more aggressive, and generally more useful to me than the #50. If one is going to spend $80-100 for a single Auriou rasp, I'd like to know which "grain" is about equal to the #49 in terms of the aggressiveness of the cut.Then I can make my choics accordingly. Are your rasps those carrying the "Gramercy" brand?Thanks.********************************************************
   "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

   John Wooden 1910-

9. 
   testtest | Oct 23, 2006 03:19am | #25

   I would say about a grain nine - but what I would get in your shoes in a 12" (300mm) grain 8 or 6 which is a real good complement because it will remove stock very fast and reasaonbly smoothly. and yes - our rasps are under the Gramercy brand.joel

10. 
    nikkiwood | Oct 23, 2006 06:36am | #28

    Joel,As far as the grain is concerned, are all the different size rasps that, say, are rated 8 going to be the same level of coarseness?********************************************************
    "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

    John Wooden 1910-

11. 
    testtest | Oct 23, 2006 06:39am | #29

    yes. No matter what the size.
    however the longer the stroke the more material is removed. In general you should alway try to use the longest, coarsest rasp you can fit into a space and feel you can control.

12. 
    nikkiwood | Oct 23, 2006 07:08am | #30

    Thanks for all your help. I probably should have said earlier I am not looking to replace the #49; rather I want a rasp that is about 6-8" long that is equally aggressive.I will study the info on your web site and send in an order.********************************************************
    "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

    John Wooden 1910-

13. 
    derekcohen | Nov 01, 2006 03:02pm | #31

    Hi Joel

    My Horse Butt Strop arrived safe and sound. Many thanks for such wonderful packaging and prompt delivery.

    This is one mean piece of leather! Even Rufus the retriever looked in awe.

    According to your website, it is used bare, sans rouge, oil or other. That is how I have tried it so far. It certainly left a mirror edge to the single chisel I have used on it to date. Is this correct procedure?

    My other query relates to whether one should or could use a backing. While it is stiff, it still bends and I am concerned about dubbing an edge. I do not want to glue it down since it is double-sided. Any recommendations?

    Regards froim Perth

    Derek 

14. 
    testtest | Nov 01, 2006 09:37pm | #33

    Derek,
    Glad you like the strop.I just hold it down on a flat surface with one hand and use the other hand to strop. for more information on stropping see:http://www.antiquetools.com/sharp/sharpstropping.htmlFor regular chisels and plane blades we don't use compound of course but for carving tools I do so the smooth side I keep plain, the rougher side I put compound on. joel

3. 
   MikeHennessy | Oct 20, 2006 02:10pm | #3

   Just to add another option to confuse the issue:

   I used to keep a set of felt wheels (one hard, one soft) mounted on a grinder motor for polishing edges. Then I tried cardboard wheels (one slotted, one not) with grit/white polishing compound. The felt wheel is now in the drawer and the cardboard wheels are on the grinder. I don't use the slotted wheel much tho'. It's designed to be used with grit for light grinding - I use a more conventional grinding wheel for that.

   Mike Hennessy
   Pittsburgh, PA

1. 
   Mike&L | Oct 20, 2006 03:01pm | #4

   Hi guys,

   According to my kids, I'm a sharpening nut.  I believe that a dull tool is a dangerous tool, so my chisels, planes, knives, kitchen knives, axes, etc all have gleaming edges, and all can shave you, regardless of the angle.

   After 60 years of sharpening stuff, and trying everything from diamond to rocks, cardboard to cotton, I've discovered that it doesn't really matter what medium you use.  Just learn one and use it.  There are a number of great books and articles out there on how to sharpen if you are just starting out (or want to improve). 

   At present, I'm using a grinding wheel to set the base bevel and the "scary sharp" sandpaper system on glass using a veritas honing guide to set the final bevel.  Works great, but then, I've known guys that could shave with their ax after using a 3"inch diameter by half inch thick, round, hand-held ax stone.

   Mike D 

1. 
   9619 | Oct 20, 2006 07:32pm | #6

   Mike,
   I too use the Scary Sharp method of sharpening/honing. I use a Delta 1" belt sander for grinding. I am exploring some options which I may keep or may discard. I do cabinetmaking and carving, and have different sets of chisels for each. For carving, I was looking for something which I could use to do honing quickly and well. TJ McDermott uses a medium felt wheel for his carving tools. I am going to give that a try for my carving tools. You are right. Any method can be made to work well. I am just "stretching" and trying some things that are old to others but new to me. I appreciate your advice.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot. 

2. 
   gapdn | Nov 03, 2006 04:33am | #35

   I'm purty much in your camp, with nearly as many years devoted to finding sharpening methods that are both quick and effective. 25 years ago, I set up a mandrel with several leather covered wheels with different profiles and a 12 X 2 inch green silicon carbide wheel for rough grinding. The silicon carbide wheel is 180 grit and works very well but unfortunately it glazes quickly and must be deglazed often. I should also note that the mandrel is driven at low speed. No more than a few hundred RPM, by a fractional HP motor. I've not seen any need for higher RPM, unless of course, it might ease the glazing problem. Following a ruff grind, (re-grind only when necessary), I've come to rely on water stones. An 800 grit for re-sharpening without regrind and 4000 grit for micro bevel and final edge. A very quick strop on the leather wheels is of course mandatory. I've settled on green compound for charging the leather strop wheels but jewelers rouge is equally effective. A hand strop for large tools like big slicks and framing chisels. I bot a large piece of cow hide many years ago and that's the base for all of my strops. Never had a notion that it was inferior in any way.Having read the article on sharpening via hard felt wheel and green compound, I have tried it on edges that just needed a bit of tweaking. It holds some promise but at the moment, I'm really busy with other stuff and don't have the time to fool with it.And so, the search for quick and effective, continues.