I see Festool is closing out their two plunge saws, with the price on the smaller one at $325 until they’re gone.
Does anyone have any idea what’s coming next? Any kind of company history that might suggest how much the price will increase with the new tool?
Replies
Not sure what's coming in that particular product vis-a-vis features, but be sure it will be priced at or near the top of the market. Festool seems to have a marketing philosophy of pricing WAY over market to make people think they must be the best...when they very often aren't. Woodcraft seems to frequently "feature" their tools, and no coincidence, is generally overpriced on most of the products they carry, compaired to more mainstream sources for serious woodworkers like Woodworkers Supply, Lee Valley, etc. From what I've seen and tried, most of Festool's so-called reputation is hype, save a few catchy features once in a while. Look around.
Well, my friend, the problem is that with most of the "mainstream" tools, the quality is going downhill -- as they all seem to be shaving price points in order to get on the shelves of the big box stores. It is no surprise that the Europeans in particular are making major efforts to fill this vacuum that has been created in the top end of the tool market. I'm thinking not only Festool, but Hilti, Metabo, Fein, and I'm certain there will be others in the near future. For years, Bosch has produced the state-of-the-art jig saw, but I recently spent a $100 more for the Festool version, and I'm glad I did. The performance is better (e.g. blade wander), and the machine just oozes a feeling of quality.You get to say whatever you want about these tools being overpriced, but I for one, appreciate having a broad range of tools available for the various market segments -- allowing me to decide whether I want to spring for a Festool or instead spend $29.95 on a B&D jig saw I saw in HD he other day.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
"It is no surprise that the Europeans in particular are making major efforts to fill this vacuum that has been created in the top end of the tool market. I'm thinking not only Festool, but Hilti, Metabo, Fein, and I'm certain there will be others in the near future."
Hi Nikkiwood,
I keep waiting for the Asian market to realize that, with the manufacturing cost advantage from which they presently benefit, they could be filling part of the high-end market niche by manufacturing a line of tools that are clearly superior to mass-market tools, and that give the top 2% a run for their money; with their labor cost, they can certainly afford labor-intensive QC.
That's essentially what happened with Japanese vehicles following the oil embargo in the late 70's: Datsun, Toyota, and Honda gained a foothold by entering the market as least cost suppliers, wound up with enviable reputations for reliability and product quality, and took market share from the Big 3 American car makers which they have never recovered; once positioned, they launched Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus.
It is entirely possible that the next Lie-Nielsen will be produced by a company that initially had a reputation as a low cost producer, and after establishing a brand name and distribution channels, launched a Lexus line of tools at a price domestic producers simply couldn't match because of labor cost issues.
It'll be interesting to see what shakes out,-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I think you're on to something there. Why not a high-end tool for less money?
I think you're right, Jim, especially as labor cost seems to be one of the key linch pins in the equation.
I think distribution will be a major hurdle: the big boxes simply don't have much interest in carrying high quality products unless they can move them in large quantities, and outfits like Rockler seem to be making far too many quality compromises (e.g. Groz handplanes - aaarrrggghhhh!).
It will take an outfit that's already well-established and credible to team-up with an off-shore maker with long-term and short-term objectives carefully balanced.
Perhaps a quality outfit like Highland Hardware, in Atlanta, will step up to the plate.
When it comes to making necessary and appropriate short-term sacrifices in order to achieve long-term objectives, Amazon.com founder Jeff Bezos comes immediately to mind. Maybe he'll be the one with the smarts, infrastructure, connections, and deep pockets to see a vision of this kind to fruition.
It'll be interesting to watch as events unfold!-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
" high end tool for less money"?.. what a concept..................wonder why no ome has ever done it before? Maybe because it flies in the face of the logic of most accounting types who set prices??Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
I doubt if this strategy would work in the tool market as it did for automobiles.I think what happened in the car world was driven by Consumer Reports. I don't think Detroit ever understood how important simple reliability is to a large segment of the car buying public.When we started seeing the reliability numbers reported by CR -- especially for Honda and Toyota -- the sales of these cars took off. The makers were then smart enough to see they could take the the basic innards of these cars, load on the luxury items, and sell them for premium dollars -- hence the Lexus, Infinity, etc. Without systematic, user surveys for tools, quality/reliability information is more difficult to come by -- and we are mainly dependent on the perceptions (of the various brands) we build up in our mind. Thus, I think it would be difficult for Makita, to take one example, to come out with a "Lexus" line of tools without cannibalizing their own sales. And I think that's why the Europeans have an advantage, since they are starting with new brands (for the US market), and they don't have to fight the perception battle that might be attached to a line already being sold in this country. Does that make any sense?********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
nikkiwood,
these things are already happening. B&D ran down it's own quality, then re-made and re-marketed the DW brand. TTI has purchased the metabo line and the milwaukee line, for both perception and quality.
the asian marketing plan is to move in with low margin price, then head towards the high margin quality products.
with european companies, it's hard to enter at the high margin quality end, then move down the scale to price. festool will have to stay in a limited area for perception reasons. yes, it's quality, but it's also mystique.
here is an example: the festool saw and guide for close to forty years had zero clearance on the guide side (left) of the cut. there was no 'need' for anti-chip protection to the right side. along comes a small company like eurekazone with zero clearance on both edges of the cut-line, and now within a year, festool comes out with this new saw that has an anti-chip to the right of the blade.
the perception was that this new company was not european, so its product must be inferior. now the perception must be that the eurekazone product is superior, because the festool saw now mimics the function of the ez guide. ah, flattery (schmeichrlei) in any language.
j
"I doubt if this strategy would work in the tool market as it did for automobiles."
Nikkiwood,
Perhaps automobiles weren't the most suitable analogy. As I recall it, the oil embargo had a lot to do with awakening a desire for economical automobiles (as opposed to the typical American gas-guzzlers of the sixties and seventies); when we began buying "Japanese econo-boxes" we were pleasantly surprised to find that they were also well-engineered and reliable - you didn't have to spend big bucks to obtain a well-engineered product from a European company! Another paradigm bites the dust!
The crux of the issue related to tool manufacture is probably whether a niche market, like the tools purchased by discriminating woodworkers, can generate sufficient cash flow to interest producers; after all, there is a limited market for so-called "boutique tools."
Ubiquitous tools like circular saws are another matter entirely - there's a huge market. Unfortunately, it's the "VHS market" - with buyers looking at the price point more than the quality level (Beta was a clearly superior product, but the average consumer just looked at how many minutes they could record on a tape for a given price. They weren't smart enough to realize that supporting the better product would lead to economies of scale down the road).
If someone credible spread the word through Knots that there was a new #4 handplane on the market that was manufactured with the same precision as a Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley/Veritas, which required no fettling by the purchaser, and was available at a significantly lower price, it seems likely to me that their sales would start slowly and grow exponentially - all things being equal.
If I had already invested the capital necessary to mass produce items as a ghost-supplier for a major manufacturer, and my labor cost was low enough to allow me to expend labor dollars to assure superior quality control under my own label at a higher unit price, the only things that would be likely to slow me down would be contractual or economic factors; granted, the market for Lie-Nielsen hand planes is sufficiently small that economies of scale probably wouldn't yield sufficient sales volume to make such a venture pay off in the short term. But I'm sure there are niches in which there's enough volume to generate cash flow above the break-even point.
When I look at an apparently smart company like Kreg, who enters the market with a good product, establishes its presence in the marketplace and creates demand for its products, creates an infrastructure capable of producing, distributing, and servicing their products, and then begins to expand their product portfolio, I have to wonder what would happen with an equally smart off-shore company with significantly lower labor cost and a culture that is more willing to balance short-term and long-term objectives.
I don't have a crystal ball - but I have the curiosity of one who spent three decades in financial management and sees lots of changes on the horizon - especially as I watch the U.S. economy shift from a manufacturing to a service economy.
Interesting topic. Thanks for sharing your perspective,-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask youself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
"Beta was a clearly superior product..."I believe that's a myth that has become embedded in the lore mostly through repetition. I don't think it is at all clear that Beta was superior. In laboratory measurements, perhaps, but not to most people comparing the picture on the screen.The technophiles at the time may have claimed to see a difference, but most consumers didn't. Given a perceived equality or near-enough equality of performance but the longer recording time and lower cost of VHS, most consumers made a perfectly rational decision, it seems to me.The greater lesson of the Beta v. VHS competition should be that a de facto standard has a big advantage in the marketplace. Sony, standing alone with Beta, really had no competitive advantage against the many makers who had agreed to the VHS format.
So you're the guy responsible for the demise of Beta, eh? LOL
Back in the day, I was a devoted audiophile whose friends were equally passionate about sound and pictures. It didn't take much of a blind test to reveal VHS was observably and audibly inferior to Beta in the early days. Granted, VHS improved over time, but Beta remained the standard of choice among discriminating users and broadcasters for several years after mom & pop consumers voted with their pocketbooks in favor of VHS.
These are probably the same folks who can't figure out why anyone would pay a few thousand dollars for a high quality cabinet saw when "you can get a decent tablesaw at Sears for a few hundred dollars."
I have many friends and relatives who aren't bothered in the least when musicians play far enough out of tune to give me a screaming headache. I'm not trying to argue with the vast majority of consumers who couldn't discern any difference - just saying that to those who are interested in such things, there were measurable and observable differences that weren't at all subtle.
Your statement that "a de facto standard has a big advantage in the marketplace" is certainly true for those selling products. I'm not sure it's always beneficial for consumers, nor am I at all sure that it's always desirable - as is apparent when buying woodworking tools. The big box stores are, in effect, achieving a de facto standard that favors profitability over quality and leaves many, like me, mourning the disappearance of locally owned specialty stores that used quality as their yardstick instead of this quarter's stock performance. In many ways, the economic engines that govern these kinds of decisions foment regression to the mean and stifle competition in ways that have a negligible upside.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 7/24/2005 11:11 pm ET by jazzdogg
Thats the great thing about being a piper (highland pipes) - 90% of your audience cant tell the difference.
Problem is, like cabinet making, you tend to be your own worst critic.
Patto,
I was always told that the definition of a gentleman is "someone who can play the bagpipes, but doesn't." ha, ha.
Bagpipes make me glad I have reasonably good relative pitch instead of perfect pitch; if I had perfect pitch, the sound of bagpipes might make me suicidal!
I suppose I could prepare myself to listen to the sound of pipes by locking myself in a room filled with feral cats in heat - but it's probably easier to wear hearing protection and stay as far from the source as possible.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
My point was that Consumer Reports both influences and shapes markets for the consumer goods they routinely cover. Mercedes, for instance, stood at the top of the heap in CR for years; but a few years ago, their quality/reliability ratings started to suffer. and from what I gather, in the last year or so, Mercedes has pulled out the stops to correct those problems. There were no doubt other inputs, but the CR ratings were most likely a significant factor in causing Mercedes to make what must be a huge investment. Unfortunately, there is nothing comparable to that publication for the tool market. Yes, various magazines "review" tool categories, but these comments come (generally) from a single individual, and are always subject to the pressures and vagaries of appearing in a commercial publication (that is, one dependent on advertising). I think there is a general perception (both by tool consumers and manufacturers) that the high end of the tool market has considerable potential at the moment. And it will be interesting to see how all this plays out over the next few years. However, it is likely to be a minefield for consumers. For example, Metabo has just come out with a new line of SCMS's. A friend of mine went on the invited junket to preview them, and came back saying they were basically junk -- on a level comparable to Ryobi. He maintains that Metabo is crassly trying to leverage their brand -- crappy saws priced at premium levels. No doubt we will see a spate of glowing magazine reviews in the coming months -- written with the hope that decent reviews will reel in some of those Metabo advertising dollars.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Nikki, that doesnt makes sense.......If consumer reports did it then the quality wasnt real? I hardly think it was a marketing issue there. Those cars were (and still are) high quality and they were low priced. The car buying public caught on fast. High quality tools are not just an advertising perception but a real issue among users for reliability, performance and other perceived qualities. Lets start with a better drill motor, improve the chop saws and make the every day use hand tools better. Who but the Asian producers are in a position to pull this feat off. I for one will support whoever ccomes along with the really improved machine at any price..... aloha, mike
<<"Nikki, that doesnt makes sense.......If consumer reports did it then the quality wasnt real?">>Yes, the quality/reliability was real, but my theory is that sales took off, at least in part, because CR -- an outside, trusted, and independent source of information -- trumpeted that fact in their ratings.I am just bemoaning the absence of a CR for the tool business. As it is, individual perception rules, aided somewhat by the often dubious reviews by wwing mags.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
"I am just bemoaning the absence of a CR for the tool business. "
Nikkiwood,
I won't call into question Consumer Reports' credibility or trustworthiness. I consult their website whenever I want to quickly bring myself up to speed on basic consumer goods and the issues with which one should be familiar before purchasing.
That being said, however, I have found myself questioning several of their recommendations over the years; not because they were inaccurate or biased, but because they focused on decidedly unremarkable middle-of-the-road products - the kinds that have virtually no appeal to consumers who are well-informed and passionate.
This was certainly the case back when I was a passionate audiophile - CR typically reported that most audio components were more-or-less the same and typically didn't even mention products in the top third of the market. I wouldn't expect to see a review of Festool jigsaws - they'd probably recommend a Ryobi and only briefly mention "overpriced competitors" like Bosch, DeWalt and Porter-Cable.
In my experience, CR would likely be one of the sources apt to say they see no reason to spend a few thousand dollars on a tablesaw when your can buy one that cuts just as well from Sears for a few hundred dollars - because they have identified their market niche: Middle American Consumers, the big hump in the middle of the bell curve.
Perhaps part of their strength comes from the fact that they are so dispassionate. But I, for one, would expect them to select Harry Homeowner tools for review, eschew many of the tools about which many Knotheads are so passionate, and completely ignore "fringe" tools like the Brian Boggs Spokeshave, or Lie-Nielsen's new chisels.
This, in my opinion, is one of the best things about the Knots forum: word of mouth from experienced, credible, users that can be very informative and tends to be decidedly passionate.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
My previous comments aside, I was reading this thread because of its core.
I have a 'sun room' extension to the back of the house with glass walls and roof all framed in cedar. It doesnt look like it has been refinished since instalation in the mid 80's.
Concurrently I have been promising myself some dust control in the shed for a couple of years, the new house lacks the ventiliation in the shed I used to have. I dont have large stationbary tools except a 16" bandsaw and a lathe (on which the sanding is the worst bit because it is not next to the door in this house). I had been considering an inexpensive (approx $300) dust collector for the shed until the sunroom reared its ugly head.
Now the thought is to splash out for a festool vac and combine that with a detail sander to tackle the cedar (and later all the architraves etc that have just been painted over since the house was built in '72).
So, given the plan is the combination sander/vac, and the extra cost of the sander will be a bit of a consideration. Is the festool vac likely to meet the dust collection needs in the shed? The alternative is to put a thin hose on a std dust collector?
Dust collection is always a wise investment. But I'd skip the detail sander, pretty much useless.
Sort of agree, but.
There is a real business requirement her (to speak in my normal consulting speak) to refinish the timber in the sunroom and later the architraves. There is probably room for my customer (SWMBO) in that task to fund an upgrade of the dust collection solution.
I still need to satisfy the prime requirement, so any suggestions on that side would be appreciated.
Thanks.
If your cedar wood is unfinished why dont you just spray oxalic acid on it? Diluted with water and sprayed with a trigger sprayer it dries in 20 minutes and makes the wood look like brand new-no sanding required. One product I have used is Dekswood Cleaner by the Flood Company and there are others like it. Then you can buy the dust collector you want (and really need) as your wood renewal will cost only a few dollars and take even less time than that. Good luck on whatever you have to do. aloha, mike
Patto,
I'm sorry, but I'm not a Festool owner, and haven't used their equipment.
Dust collection is absolutely critical in my opinion. Finding a way to achieve it is, as the commercials like to proclaim, priceless.-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I couldn't agree more about CR. I used to subscribe but discontinued over 10 years ago when they reviewed, of all things, "toilet paper". Frankly, I couldn't care less what the "best" toilet paper was as long as it fulfilled its intended function (of which they all do).
I agree with this but sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between credible users and incredible users. All too often, posters slam other tools as being overpriced, overhyped, etc. or praise a particular tool as "without question the best". I have seen these type of posts on everything from handtools to European combination machines and this thread has been no exception. I believe that individuals making such claims, whether they be positive or negative, should clearly state their qualifications for making such an assessment in their posts. I seriously doubt that they have owned or personally used every tool out there? Assuming that is the case, they are unqualified to make such claims. Even if they are qualified, they would still be biased by their own unique preferences and habits that are not likely the same for everyone hence making the claim moot. We are all probably passionate about some of our tools because they help us perform great work but, that doesn't mean that they are the "best" and that everyone else should have the same thing in their shop. If we all just stuck to the facts that we know or have experienced first hand, this forum would be of much higher quality.
Steve
I hear ya, Steve.
One of the things that seems to trigger my commode diode (it switches on periodically to help filter out the crap) is the use of absolute words and phrases - like always & never - that are used without appropriate qualification. Others are inordinate argumentativeness, disrespect for fellow Knotheads, and a tendency to shoot (their mouths off) before they think and aim.
After spending a bit of time here, I've learned to trust certain fellow Knotheads (for whom I click the "friends" icon), while others have earned decidedly less credibility - sometimes it's just easier to click the "ignore" button than to overload my screen with the extraneous chatter provided by some posters.
I won't mention any repeat offenders by name, but Lord, how I miss the exchanges with our dear, departed, Jon Arno!
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I won't mention any repeat offenders by name,darn, dont do that to us........ 8-)
Another shortcoming of CR ratings is the selection of products -- sometimes, maybe often, they only review some of the products that are out there. This may have a practical basis, but it has the effect of limiting one's choice to just those items in their report when there may be some better ones available that are not included. For example, when they have reviewed major appliances, I have noticed the list may not include some of the less well known manufacturers' products which could include the "best" one. To be sure, it may not be possible to obtain and review every single example of a product, but they also don't always reveal that and you might just be looking for that one certain one. In some instances this also applies to certain models or variations of items that are reviewed. I quit subscribing to CR some years ago when there were too many instances of these limitations for things I was interested in, but I can also see that it may be an OK place to start researching something.
Back to Consumer Reports for a minute....................I will leap to their defense for the following reasons:1) I like their dedicated effort to provide objective testing information on products.2) I appreciate their effort to gather and report reliability information directly from users/consumers (the annual questionnaire).3) Some of these product categories (audio equipment, for instance) represent a big universe. Given the limitations of space and budgets, they of necessity must be selective. Unfortunately in your case, they drew the line before they got up to the high end equipment. 4) Most important, they are the only game in town. Where else can we turn for this type of information on basic consumer goods?********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Hi Nikkiwood,
I can't say that I disagree about CR's objective testing (within the limited bandwidth they choose to cover), and I applaud their solicitation of feedback from users (which I admit I tend to view with a grain of salt - ever wary of regression to the mean).
I also agree that CR has no choice but to limit the scope of the products they review, and readily admit that there are products about which I am not at all reluctant to turn to CR for guidance - though I will sometimes have different criteria with which I weight product ratings.
As to your final comment about their de facto monopoly on objective product reviews (and their indifference to product manufacturer's money, entreaties, and complaints), I believe that's probably CR's greatest strength - they're loyal to themselves, their established values and standards, and their readers.
I also wish there was a CR that reviewed more of the kinds of products in which I'm interested, as there's far more to life than dishwashers, vacuum cleaners, and other middle-of-the-road consumer products; I probably only look at CR product reviews once or twice a year at most.
Enjoy your week,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Edited 8/1/2005 1:52 am ET by jazzdogg
Just to add to the CR topic they are definitely aimed at the Consumer as opposed to the professional. I did see them rate Sanders, drills and 3/8 rachets. They really slammed snap-on for the price vs quality. And they usually point out that most of the pro-level tools are over-kill for consumers but I don't think they factor in the ease of use as far as producing a quality result which is I think the biggest advantage of a pro-level tool.
"I don't think they factor in the ease of use as far as producing a quality result which is I think the biggest advantage of a pro-level tool."
Troy,
With the exception of automobiles, do they test the long-term viability of the products they survey? The total cost of ownership is an important factor when using tools to make a living, and I'm not sure they're particularly interested in providing such a perspective - particularly for pro-grade tools.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
They definatley aim there reviews to the home user not the pros. So I don't think they factor in any long term durability for tools.
Troy
I agree nikkiwood, many of the European tools are very nice as many are still made less with regard to a price point and more with quality and functionality in mind. Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to live in Europe where these same tools cost about 1/2 what they do here.
Ah, now that's where you've got the wrong end of the stick Bioman. Most tools here in the UK cost the same in £'s as they do in US$'s.
Some people even buy US configured power tools from the US, import them here and run them off a transformer. I run a bunch of US configured tools through a transformer because I lived in the US for ten years and had acquired a lot of 110-120V 60 hz tools. I packed them all up in crates and moved them here when I moved back to live and they all run fine. Slainte.RJFurniture
That's odd Sqian.
I agree this may be less true with hand power tools of which I am not aware.
I am aware for example from a recent discussion with a US distributor of a European light industrial woodworking line that most of their offerings sell in their country of manufacture for half of what it costs in the states.
Also, I have purchased electronics directly from the country of manufacture (in Europe) bypassing the US distribution chain and paid around half the price of what it would have cost me at the local retail store.
Perhaps rather than saying Europe, I should have said country of origin as anytime a product is moved from one country to another, or goes through a distribution chain it gets marked up.
Sqian, does a product made in your country cost the same if purchased in another country in Europe? If so it seems more like a manufacturer price fixing through his distribution chain.
I suspect there are currency exchange rate issues that effect this equation as well.
Bioman, here's a link to Woodworker's Supply where the Bosch range of routers is priced. http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=109-856
And here's a link to Axminster in the UK, http://www.axminster.co.uk/category.asp?cat_id=207844 where again I've linked to their Bosch routers.
In the UK the Bosch GOF2000CE router (2000 Watts equalling about 2.5 HP) is £242.29, and in the US the 1619EVS which is, alledgedly, 3-1/4HP Electronic Plunge Router is probably the same model and costs $320. At an exchange rate of $1.75 per £1 $320 works out at about £183.
So it looks like my £'s for US$'s maxim doesn't fully hold water. Still it's a maxim that we Brits sort of hold to and it often seems to be about right.
I can't say how tools manufactured in Austria for example are priced compared to their price in the UK-- I haven't done the research to find out. Slainte. RJFurniture
richard.... i didn't see your name on calvin's guest list for RiverFest ..
whassup wit dat ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Bioman,
European Festool customers are always commenting about how lucky Americans are, because tools are less expensive here.Europeans have access to better tools, and they have more choices, but they pay more per tool.
From: Matthew Schenker 4:10 am
To: Bioman
Bioman,
European Festool customers are always commenting about how lucky Americans are, because tools are less expensive here.Europeans have access to better tools, and they have more choices, but they pay more per tool. Alot of European woodworking and other fabrication industries have severe tax disincentives for keeping old machines on line instead purchasing new as they are written off. Its a partial reason for why their machinery is so prevalent in the industry. Some form of this would help us in the long run too. aloha, mike
knothead,
matthew's calling you out. just tell him you don't like the color of the tools and the attitude of some of the users/promoters.
be careful matthew.
j
jericho,
As I said, I don't need to be careful. Hearing legitimate criticism is always good, so there's nothing to be afraid of. But criticism without exprience needs to be called out.Again, a forum like this only works when people's comments, criticism, and praise are based on real experience.So, Knothead, where are you? Your silence speaks volumes!
Edited 7/27/2005 8:27 am ET by Matthew Schenker
jericho,
Do you see the irony here?I'm accused of having a superior attitude, even though I make direct comparisons between tools based on actual experiece. I answer challenges to my statements, and admit where I went too far.Knothead is assumed by you to be in the right, even though he makes damning statements apparently without any actual experience and then says nothing to explain the basis for his comments.Be honest, who comes off as more superior?
Edited 7/31/2005 2:24 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
welcome back matthew,
i was wondering where you went. i think knothead was just mad and blowing off steam.
your steam stays bottled up. relax. i am not here to shoot you down. i am trying to keep you from shooting yourself in the foot.
you like the green stuff. promote it on its own merit. you say it's above comparison. so try to stay on that side of the bar. tell what it can do without saying what the other tool cannot do. i'll say it again, be careful, because you're promoting technology that is some forty years old. when you have a system, you automatically lock yourself into changing slower and less often. sort of like the space shuttle, where they have to shop for computer parts on ebay because they're not in production. that's a spacey analogy, but it's what popped into my mind.
knothead will cool off sooner or later.
right now you know all the answers and try to defend them, soon you will understand the questions then your answers won't need a defense.
in the meantime get your green stuff loosened up, i think there might be a challenge brewing. winner take all?
glad to have you back,
jericho
jericho,
I'm in this for the tools, the best I can get in my price range and within my shop-space limitations. I'm not married to one brand or another. As I have said, I have great praise for many companies.If there is a challenge brewing, as you said, that's fine with me. If someone comes up with something newer and better, count me in as being interested.PS: I was away at the AWFS Fair in Las Vegas from Thursday morning to Saturday night. That accounts for my absence!
matt, see anything new or different? how about the kreg k3? were you there with a vendor or just walking the show? jericho
jericho,
I saw a lot of new things, and some old things that I had never witnessed in person:=> A sliding table from JessEm for table saws (I want one).
=> SawStop cabinet and contractor saws look impressive.
=> Jet benchtop table saw (I was lukewarm about this).
=> Original Saw Company's large radial arm saws are quite a sight!
=> Interesting conversations with the Grizzly people.
=> Router bits and spiral heads by Southeast Tool caught my eye.
=> Norm Abrams at the Delta booth (yawn).As far as Kreg goes, yes, I did see the K3, but I'm not that interested in pocket-hole joinery.I was there on my own, although I spent a lot of time at the Festool booth, taking photos for my Yahoo group.
Yeah Festool is way overpriced but I think it goes beyond the "European Mystique" that they ask for such high prices. I mean who else out there makes a plunge saw? Or a dedicated system to go along with it? A drill with a bunch of nifty attachements that actually get used? I don't have their router but it'll be my next purchase when the Bosch goes out. These tools are rugged and in my estimation if the drill holds up for 8 years on the jobsite it'll be money well spent. So far the saw has probably saved me money in time. I can go into someones living room, cut up a storm and with a modicum of cleanup in the end be out of there without trashing someones house thanks to the efficient design of there dust collection. I never used to be able to hook up a vacuum to any other circular saw and that piece of engineering alone is worth an extra 100 bucks on a saw.
Knothead,
You wrote this:
"most of Festool's so-called reputation is hype, save a few catchy features once in a while."And you also wrote this:
"Festool seems to have a marketing philosophy of pricing WAY over market to make people think they must be the best...when they very often aren't."Sounds like you have a lot of experience with Festool tools. I would be very interested in hearing about your experiences. Which Festool tools you have used that led you to these conclusions?I'm sure you wouldn't be posting such opinions without basing it on actual experience. Of course you wouldn't do that!
"I'm sure you wouldn't be posting such opinions without basing it on actual experience. Of course you wouldn't do that!" m.s.
be careful matthew that you don't spread it on so thick that you can't walk back through it. j
jericho,
No worries here!If Knothead's statements are based on actual experience, I would be happy to know about it. If Knothead had a bad experience with the tools then it is a legitimate complaint. I wouldn't be walking back through anything.But if Knothead is saying these things without experience, then people should know that as well.The intergrity of a forum like this relies on people offering real knowledge and opinions based on exprience. If people put out tool reviews without experience, positive or negative, then this forum loses its value.I just want to confirm that the statements Knothead made are based on real knowledge.
Edited 7/25/2005 11:09 am ET by Matthew Schenker
Knothead,
It's been a few days and we haven't heard your backup for the claims you made against Festool.So...what kind of experience have you had with Festool that led you to write negative things about the tools and the company?You're making us think you are just blowing hot air here!Of course, I'm sure that's not the case. So go ahead and tell us about your Festool experiences.
Edited 7/26/2005 10:49 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
Which part of their reputation is hype?
This should be clearly identifiable. For instance... if their router has the reputation for carrying shaper cutters, and it doesn't, then that's hype. If their drill has the reputation for having more torque than a 24v Milwaukee and doesn't, then that's hype. So please elaborate. It should be easy to do since you've had specific experiences.
wolf,
since knothead seems to be awol, i'll watch his back so he doesn't get any anti-skid marks, or any random dustless swirl marks on him.
it's the method of 'hype'. i think knothead just fired off a few rounds because the commercial came on one too many times.
it's the superior attitude that wears on you after a while.
if the 'green stuff' is as good, and without defect as you say it is, then lift it high.
don't try to trash everybody else's stuff. ( wolf, this comment is more for matthew and some others. sorry, i dropped it on your door step.)
it's like you're holding a royal flush of green and you don't think anybody can raise the ante.
you need to challenge your competitors, not try to put them down with rhetoric.
j
Edited 7/27/2005 6:27 pm ET by jericho
Well... What you say makes sense... And I completely agree. I haven't had a lot of history with this fellow's comments... I have some Festool stuff, and some of it I really like. It has it's shortcomings, and I'd welcome an improvement from anyone (any other vendor).
I only take issue with his comment that it doesn't live up to the hype. Maybe, if like you say, he's just had a belly full of Festool fanatics that are bigots, he should have just said that. His "doesn't live up to the hype" could be quantified, as I stated in my post.
But I don't like close-minded tool bigots any more than you do... or people who think that because they like what they bought, then by golly it's the best! They'd be comical if they weren't so "in your face" with it... right? And I suppose the flip side of that is, "If I think it's too expensive, then I don't want anyone who buys it telling me how much they like it." Either way is nerve-racking.
Thanks for your comments.
thanks wolf, j
jericho,
You wrote this:
"don't try to trash everybody else's stuff. ( wolf, this comment is more for matthew and some others."Can you tell me where I have "trashed everybody else's stuff"?As I've stated many times, I get very positive about very good tools, no matter who makes them. I don't limit my comments to Festool. In fact, here's a short list of woodworking tool companies I have recently praised with enthusiastic reviews. You'll see I cover a wide ground:Ridgid (benchtop table saw)
Jet (bandsaw)
Powermatic (bandsaw)
Porter+Cable (router)
Bosch (jigsaw)
Incra (miter gauge, measuring and marking tools)
Woodpecker (router table, router fence system)
Timberwolf (bandsaw blades)
Woodslicer (bandsaw blades)There are others, but you get the point.
Edited 7/27/2005 10:03 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
61118.1
chriswoo1,
Why did you post a link to that discussion here?
matthew, you are like cornwallis, brilliant, but your ego might be your downfall. just to try and pull this together, here are a few of your comments in answer to your question, where have i trashed ,etc.
it's your tone and direction. its not that others can't take the criticism. the aroma of the conversation becomes an odor.
instead of looking in the mirror for a reflection, try looking out the window for direction. j
"Let me be blunt. There is no comparison! The new Bosch is often touted as a great jigsaw, and it is probably better than 95% of other machines on the market. I owned one for a while, before I got the Trion." ms
"Try cutting 3" or 4" thick wood with the Bosch and watch as that blade bends and twists. Cut the same wood with the Festool and observe how the blade remains stiff and straight."ms
"There are other features that put the Festool way ahead of the Bosch." ms
"In general, there are no tools available for the American market that come close to a Festool tool of the same category. Period."ms
"I will admit that cutting thin strips using a Festool guide rail is not easy to do. You can do it, but it is the weakness of the Festool system. However, I think that EZ SmartGuide's claim that their system makes this easy is inaccurate. Have you tried lining up those thin pieces with the stop on the EZ SmartGuide? Yes, the piece you cut is thin, but certainly not straight enough. "ms
Matthew has all the passion of a true believer -- which I find tiresome, but nonetheless harmless.I have cuffed him upside the head a time or two myself; it might be nice if he would cool down his rhetoric, but I would hate to see him stop "calling 'em the way he sees 'em."The other "problem" is that I think he is generally right about the Festool stuff.I bought their jig saw about 6 months ago, and I do think it is way better than the Bosch, particularly when it comes to blade deflection in thick materials.Was it worth an extra $100? I think so, if only because I don't have to spend all that time squaring off the cuts, which has always been part ot he process when using the Bosch.However, if we ever find out Matthew is taking free gear from Festool in exchange for being their shill here, at Yahoo, and whatever other forums he participates in -- well, that would really piss me off.********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
Edited 7/31/2005 4:28 pm ET by nikkiwood
nikk,
he knows a lot of stuff, and he's a good detail guy. i just don't want to see him become a pain in detail. if you wanted someone to evaluate something, he's the guy. he's thorough and demanding.
i just like to see the focus on the upside. that's just me talking.
as for matt, i like the guy, just don't agree with some of the viewpoints.
he's competitve. that's good.
he believes in something. that's good. even if it's green.
jericho
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