FYI:
We just published an article and video of Festool’s soon-to-be released Domino Joinery System. If you’re not familiar with the Domino, it looks and operates like a biscuit joiner but cuts slot mortises for floating tenon joinery.
I’d like to hear what everyone thinks about this new category of tool. Do you think it fills a void? Will it be useful for hobby woodworkers or pros?
Discuss…
Matt Berger
Fine Woodworking
Replies
Matt,
I think this is a very good idea. Any tool that facilitates M&T joinery is a benefit. While this makes floating M&T joints, I can see where it could also be used for traditional ones.
There is no lack of need for a tool that makes accurately-placed mortises, as all the different types of such machinery prove.
It's a special-purpose router for mortising. Yes, a router could be used instead, but this is set up to do the job right out of the box and appears easier to handle.
Very pricey though. That'll be a tough sell. If it establishes a market, cheaper brands will no doubt come along.
Rich
Edited 12/22/2006 12:50 pm ET by Rich14
Rich,
It's a biscuit joiner on steroids. :-)
I agree with Samson - too pricey; "tenons" too small for a lot of applications.
However, our opinions aren't worth much unless we have used it, so I look forward to any actual users of the beast posting. Experience is worth 10X a guess, even an educated one.
Lataxe
Lataxe
"It's a biscuit joiner on steroids."
Yah. What is worse than a biscuit joiner? A biscuit joiner with acne!
My new uber machine, Hammer Kombo C3-31, has a slot mortiser that can clamp and mortise large timbers to an accuracy of Angstrom units without breaking a sweat. Now do you think I'll be getting one of these Festool mortisers very soon?
(I lied about the Angstroms)
Rich
Rich, mortising aside, how do you like that new combo machine?
I have the Hammer DVD and it looks pretty slick.I've been leaning toward 2 separates (the saw/shaper and planer/jointer)
but that combo would save some space & money.Did you get the dado?
Tom,The machine has been ordered from Austria (imagine Ahh-nold Schwarzenegger saying that to get the proper flavor). It should get here in February. I got the "Comfort" configuration (78" slider.I was thinking about getting the separate pieces, too. Then decided on the combo because there was a very big price break that way.I got the machine configured to use the dado (you have to specify one way or the other as a factory option) but haven't ordered the "Adjustable Groove Cutter for Circular Saw Operations" (the actual dado head)) yet. It's $600 itself. But, hey, as the DVD says, you save money on sharpening because the cutter inserts are disposable.Rich
Rich,
Mortising with a hammer? What do you do, just beat the wood reet hard until it forms a hole out of fright? Why not try an axe, which at least has a sharp edge on it?
Or you could get a real combo - a Knapp. I was thinking of selling a grandchild to get the money for one myself, until I realised I would need a bigger shed, therefore a bigger garden, therefore a different house, therefore......
Anyway, apparently it is always better to have lots of little mortises and tenons than one bigger one as this will suit the Festool's limited capabilities (I mean be a better joint). :-)
Lataxe
Lataxe,A Knapp requires TWO grandchildren. But Hammer was running a special - I was able to get the Kombo machine for only one. I drove a real hard bargain and got them to agree to either male or female if I ordered before Dec 1. I figured I couldn't let that deal get away."it is always better to have lots of little mortises and tenons than one bigger one"Well I guess if your biscuit cutter on steroids can only do little holes, you claim that lots of little holes are better than one big one. Those marketing boys are really clever.Don't look now, but any good mortising machine capable of large mortises can also make lots of little ones if that floats your boat (so to speak).
Rich,
I'm afraid I was taking the mick out of post number 6, in which a chap notes to Mr Berger that, "However, it didn’t take long into the discussion for it to become obvious that several smaller tenons will be much stronger than a single larger tenon".
Gawd, they'll tell you anything to sell their gizmo. All large tenons are verboten from now on then, even if they have been used successfully for thousands of years. And there was me thinking that the M&T design should suit its appliction. (I wonder if you can do through, wedged tenons with a Domino). :-)
That to the side, it looks a nice machine; jut a lot of money (especially for the tooling and their tenons) to perform a job esily accomplished, with more versatility, in lots of other ways. Of course, if it did dovetails as well......
Lataxe, who has some mortise chiels now; and a New Mallet he made.
hmmm ... perhaps a phalanx of dowels would be better still? They could make a machine that simulteously drills a grid of dowel holes - it could be called "domino dots!"
Samson,
Phalanx of dowels? Well, Mafell make a domino look-a-like that emplaces 2 dowel holes of your choice very accurately indeed. And only another $500!
Soon all woodwork will be done with a biscuit joiner, a Domino and a Mafell doweller. The world will then be a better place and we can give the chisels and planes away to uncivilised people who know no better.
Well, this is the dream of the European Toolmakers, at least.
Lataxe
Edited 12/24/2006 4:21 pm ET by Lataxe
What do you think Lataxe,Should I get rid of my Multico and buy this gadget ?
How would I make not perpendicular mortises though ?
I think I will stick to it after all !Merry Christmas,C.
C,
Well the Multico is a nice coloured thing but only makes square holes. I would put it in the garden for birds to perch on and get a woodrat.
Of course, my views are jaundiced by unpleasant experiences with a mortising attachment for a drill press, so you should ignore me. (Oh, you were already planning to). :-)
Merry Christmas C; and a Productive New Year. I am off now to do the Traditional Thing with the wider family for a few days.
Lataxe
So how many job sites do you take your C3 to?
Let's at least compare apples to apples. I'm sure you can cut 2X4's with the C3 also but I doubt you could move it from job site to job site easily.
If you want to brag about your new machine then do so, but don't compare it to a tool made for a specific purpose and aplication. Instead show us pics of the wonderful things you build.
Jack
Cool off Jack,If you read the whole thread, you'll see I thought the design to be a benefit. I wasn't for an instant comparing the Festool to a horizontal slot mortiser.And that's the whole point. I don't go to any jobsites. I work in my shop (or I will when it's finished). I don't have the need for this new tool and I am looking forward to using a tool I have waited a very long time and that is completely out of this Festool's league. What I didn't add, and should have for emphasis, is that the entire horizontal slot mortiser module for the Hammer combo is not much more than the price of the little Festool. That, I think is insane.For those who can use them, I think the Festool is a good idea. But it is priced way over the rainbow.BTW, for those who do buy these tools, I don't think use on jobsites will be their role. I think they will be primarily shop tools. Time will tell about that, if they even sell.And if I want to, I'll brag about a piece of machinery. I expect this mortiser to perform very well, but I really don't think there is anything really special about this Hammer mortiser compared to other slot mortisers. Slot mortisers, as a species, happen to be specialized machines, produced in limited quantities, not widely known in non-commercial shops. They all, more or less, are very robust, very accurate devices. I've wanted to have one since I saw my first over 30 years ago. And when I get good at producing M&T joints on this one, I'll be glad to show you some examples.Rich
Rich,
I’m not hot, I’m just jealous that you have a great tool coming your way.
Jack
Oh, Jealous is OK, then. Rich
The accuracy of the Domino is better than a slot mortiser. Also your euro morticer has a moving table which causes stability and support problems on large pieces. The domino is brought to the work so support is not an issue. I can pack up my Domino and take it to the job.
Yes, you can take the Domino to the job. But "more accurate than a slot mortiser?" I really doubt it. That's a pretty sweeping statement, and is simply foolish as a generalization. I'll let you know the accuracy of my Hammer slot mortiser when it arrives next month.
Rich, I own a dedicated Felder slot mortiser with a moving head and it is a good tool. For 90% of the loose tenon work I do the Domino will flat out replace the Felder. If you understood how the slot mortiser worked you would know why the accuracy is less than perfect. Combo Jointer slot mortisers have moving tables which are not good. you are relying on a small table to move dead flat in 4 directions while under load from the work piece. A dedicated slot mortiser with a moving head is ####more accurate method and does not move the work piece. The Domino is much faster to set up and deadly accurate. If you have not already bought the mortise attachment I would recommend you hold off and try the Domino first.Dan
I don't know, Dan.I hear what you're saying but haven't had any trouble with a 8 year old attachment - the body on this one is pressed 6mm steel with solid bushings all round and a milled aluminium table. I can see how long pieces flexing may be a problem and may misalign things, however - for long pieces, I use a support.The advantage of the slot mortiser/horizontal borer is that it allows about 120mm of plunge. I think the Domino's limited to 25mm/32mm(?)I drill dowels with the horizontal borer and the last job needed 90mm deep holes. This might have proved difficult on the dedicated Domino.Having said that, if I was faced with the outlay for a decent biscuit cutter or a Domino, I'd be looking at AUD600-800 for the biscuit cutter and AUD40/1000 biscuits, versus AUD1600 for the Domino and AUD 60/500 dominos. The Domino is ####f a r more accurate machine, but is it more accurate than a Lamello biscuit cutter? The slop that biscuits naturally have is a problem to me - they need to be accurately cut and set to high tolerances in the work I do (higher end gallery commissions) In this case, the Domino would be more advantageous than a biscuit cutter, but I already have the money sunk on a biscuit cutter, so it's with this I'm staying.Cheers, eddie[edit: the spell checker does not like the word "f.a.r." without the full stops - rather strange one, given there was never a plan to put a 't' on the end][edit II: it's actually the word "a" when followed by an adjective and not a noun - a trifle harsh perhaps given its common usage]
Edited 1/1/2007 4:01 pm by eddiefromAustralia
Eddie,
Have you mortised with a woodrat? It's like a horizontal borer made vertical.
With a 4 ins (2ins cut) spiral upcut bit and a few accurately fashioned wedges, angled mortises (and the matching tenons) can be cut very accurately and cleanly (as can the straightforward right angled form of M&T). The 'rat does multi-shaped M&T well too, such as haunched tenons (and the matching mortises).
The 'rat makes square-ended tenons but round ended mortises. You need to match them with a chisel or other handtool .... but presumably that's true for a slot mortiser?
Alternatively, the woodrat will make two matching round-ended mortises in to which a rounded-ended loose tenon will fit. I have made many loose tenons to a piston-fit using a drum sander and round-over cutter in a router table. You can make several feet of tenon in one go, to last ages.
The Domino does look fast and easy though...
Of course, I am using Two Cherries mortise chisels, saws and such just now. It does take a while, so doing handtool M&T commercially must be an expensive option?
I never used a slot mortiser so don't know how they compare to a woodrat for setup time and so forth. But I find it hard to imagine a better quality M&T (ie piston fit) than can be produced with a woodrat. My handtooled ones are nowhere near that good yet (although not bad either).
Lataxe
Dan, I am very familiar with using a horizontal slot mortiser. I don't agree with your statement that they are inherenly inaccurate. Very much the opposite. I have repeatedly matched mortise piece to tenon piece so that (same-sized) stock lined up perfectly.
I think it fills a void potentially for pros who need to quickly assemble stronger furniture. But it really adds little new; a router with a shop built mortising jig can do the same thing. Festool has added a bit of convenience as you no longer have to make your own floating tenons (you just buy their pre-made ones) and you no long have to spend 15 minutes making the jig from wood in your scrap box.
The drawbacks seem fairly large for the hobbiest:
- you are limited to farily small tenons (this one seems the most problematic)
- the tool is expensive
- you need to buy Festool's tenons
in short, it looks like a tool that will find it's niche, but is far from revolutionary. It just seems to be a slightly better mouse trap for certain applications - falling somewhere between biscuit cutter - bench mortiser - and router, which each may be as good or better in many situations.
Hi Matt,
It is unfortunate that you had to back out of the trip to Germany at the last minute. We had a good time and your presence was missed.
I would like to address your comment about using wider tenons. This is actually a topic that I was discussing with one of your colleagues from a different publication (out of respect, I will just use his first name, Chris.) Prior to this conversation I was thinking the same as you, that it would be good if wider tenons were available. However, it didn’t take long into the discussion for it to become obvious that several smaller tenons will be much stronger than a single larger tenon.
The reason for this isn’t so much for the strength of the tenon, as it is for the strength of the resulting mortise. The tenon is already the stronger link in the chain because its grain is perpendicular to the joint and is contiguous. However, the wider the mortise slot, the more material is removed from the substrate material; which typically has a grain orientation parallel to the joint.
Instead of making a single, wide, mortise and tenon; replace this with multiple, smaller, mortise and tenons with a small web of substrate material left in between. This remaining web of substrate significantly increases the strength of the substrate material.
Just pulling numbers out of thin air, I would recommend keeping two-times a tenon’s thickness between adjacent mortises (between 10 and 20 mm).
Matt,
Have you read thread 30220? It discusses the Domino a bit.
Lataxe
Thanks Lataxe. I hadn't seen that discussion. It seems Knots scooped us on this one. I didn't realize this tool has been available overseas for so long.
Yeah the Domino has been here in Australia almost a year know. It is a great tool, it is alittle pricey, but I think that it will save so much time on any production work one might do that it would be worth it. I've only used one a handful of times, but it is a great machine.Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Typical Festool...over-priced and really not offering anything earth-shattering.
This is a great tool (Festool in general) for the snobbery crowd that wants everyone to know that they have spent a lot of money on a tool.
Maybe Lie-Nielsen and Festool could team up.
I'm not impressed at all, sorry.
If I want a floating M&T, I'll break out the router, though I'm more apt to chop an M&T with a mortise chisel for $30...and I don't need to get my biscuit fix from Festool everytime I want to build.
The real question is why Fine Woodworking magazine is conducting this impromptu market research for Festool???
Edited 12/23/2006 8:39 am ET by mowog77
The real question is why Fine Woodworking magazine is conducting this impromptu market research for Festool???
Does that statement mean that you believe every single new tool we discuss here is conducting free market research, or is it just because Matt initiated the conversation. I think you're reading a bit much into it, and just trying to stir the pot. Stir away, I have a spoon.
Jeff
Just to update Jeff, whatever Festool do they have never answered my mails dating back to August regarding the jigsaw. So much for quality.
Wow, that is a shocker. I'll find out next week on my own, too. I just dropped my TS55 and cracked the blade cover on my plunge saw. It's right at the area that holds the zero clearance green tab (don't know it's 'official' name without looking it up). I'll have to order a new cover.
Let you know how that works out.
Jeff
Don't take this the wrong way, it's just a question. DO you really think Lie-Nielsen's products are over-priced? I agree about Festool, but couldn't disagree more on Lie-Nielsen. It seems that people lament the fact that no-one manufactures good stuff in the US anymore, and everything has gone overseas. Obviously the cost of labor is the prohibitive factor in this. But I think they have done a great job of manufacturing a very high quality product at a reasonable price. I think they span the quality vs. production problem very well. I don't ever hear people complain about the prices of Clifton, and they are very similar.Regarding Festool, I guess if a product solves a problem, it is worth it...if you want to pay for it. I saw a show on the history of power tools (History Channel) and when certain innovations in tools came about, they often cost the average woodworker a month's earnings, but they were worth it because of the advantage in efficiency.
He shoots he score!There ya have it. Folks want to lament the price of Festool then complain about DeWalt!!I learned the hard way: Buy the best and cry once.I applaude Festool for striving for quality and giving us innovative choices. No tool is for everyone and until I see this one I have no idea if it'll work for me but I am curious.Sorry to bag on DW and I have to come clean and say I LOVE the 735 planer and the 433 belt sander. That belt sander by the way is freakin' incredible if you haven't used it. Compared to others it's very good for leveling large flat panels like table tops. It's balance lets it glide over surfaces flatly and not tip and gouge..Anyway It's nice to see innovation.BTWUsed to be able to find Multicos at Garrett Wade and ???? I don't find them for sale in the USA any more. I actually had one in the shopping cart at GW.com and took it out. It was on sale. Next time I looked: all gone....See! Buy the best and cry once and buy it quick!10saw
It's been around for (maybe) a couple of years here in the UK, Matt . To a horny handed cynical old hack like me that's seen one in action it's just another way of knocking a hole out of wood. And, if I remember correctly, you can also get a bit of pre-packaged wood to stick in the holes you make! I wasn't impressed enough to think I've got to have one, ha, ha. There are many other ways of achieving much the same thing quite simply.
It'll be useful to those with a specific need to create small slip tenons that way-- and perhaps some of those of a particularly credulous disposition that could see it as the answer to all their joinery problems. There will be uses for it just as the biscuit jointer found a niche 25 or 30 years ago and, latterly, the Mafell hand held dowelling machine (and the Mafell clones.)
From an editorial point of view, I'd treat it as a new tool on the market with the capability of filling a bit of gap reasonably usefully. It certainly doesn't do anything that is particularly revolutionary. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
Edited 12/23/2006 5:41 am by SgianDubh
Dear M,
Seems pretty cool. The tester makes a comment about "biscuits not being particularly strong". I always get a kick out of that. Apparently, he hasn't tried to break one of those joints! I know that some will disagree, but they have the right to be wrong! A full mortise cutter, that functions like a biscuit joiner? I like it. I'll be interested to see what the real tool is like.
Best & Meery Christmas!
John
This is a great tool. Unfortunately way too expensive.
Gabriel
I'ld have to agree with you. With Festool I get interested in their ideas and even when I mentally prepare myself for the price they always seem to surprise me. In this case I would have paid five to six hundred for their starter package. I'll wait for the copies with hopefully more features and a reasonable price.
Yea great!
Thanks!
I'm excited. I do a few kitchen/bath cabinets a year. I can come in at or below say kraftmaid and deliver faster and better. I used Lamellos in the past. Biscuits are incredibly strong and I imagine the "dominos" stronger still.
I understand the price to be about $700 for a basic unit and $200 more for 3 more "cutters" with one as small as 5mm in thickness. And to be able to take to a job site or build on site.....That's pretty cool. Perhaps you'd get a better response at BT.
In fact I notice a bit of elitism "against" Festool here in the woodworkers world. But hard core finish carpenters who do high end work with solid woods LOVE Festool!
I love making custom furniture but rarely get the chance but I can make a decent living offering custom kitchens or baths and I make them like furniture, what I mean is I use techniques I would use to make furniture as good as I know how to make it. So I get the pleasure of working wood, making and designing pieces specifically for a home.
Last year I lost my shop that was a more traditional stationary tool affair. Now retooling I'm cramped for space and am looking to make myself more valuable as a finish carpenter and ease into the custom world maybe one day.
To have a mortiser that will mate with my other Festool CT22 and perform like the other Festool tools I have both at home and on the road is a very good feeling!
I will seriously investigate this product. BTW have any of you priced the Lamellos or a "quality" mortising machine (or a slot mortiser!) if you can find one.Not quite the $900 you'll drop on the Domino but close!
But it all remains to be seen....
Thanks,
10saw
I will seriously consider this tool as well. I thought the same thing as many here about the sanders (too high priced), and then I used one in a client's home. The lack of mess got me referred to two other built-in jobs. Then I purchased the circular saw to cut expensive sheet goods, walnut, cherry, mahogany, ply. Again, when in a client's home, I hook up the vacuum and no mess. Happy clients!!!
I paid a very high price, by comparison, for my Llamello biscuit joiner, however to me the precision and ease of use are worth it. Cutting mortises on the drill press, I have one set up for mortising only, and cutting the tenons on the table saw is fine, but this could be a real good alternative when on site.
I don't know about anyone else, but I enjoy making M&T's and a biscuit joiner for $900 is not something I am interested in. If I were going to spend that kind of money, I would throw in another 1300 and buy a Multirouter from JDS.
Jeff
"I don't know about anyone else, but I enjoy making M&T's and a biscuit joiner for $900 is not something I am interested in. If I were going to spend that kind of money, I would throw in another 1300 and buy a Multirouter from JDS."Have you not been reading this thread? The Domino is not a biscuit jointer. The Domino is a hand held loose tenon tool. It is super fast dead accurate and limited only by the max size of the pre made tenons. It can make all the tenon joints including compound angles in a fraction of the set up time. Like all Festool power tools you can buy it and try it out for 30 days free. Also if you enjoy making M&T by hand that is great but go discuss it in the hand held area not here.Dan
I was wondering if anyone, besides myself, after looking at the Domino had thought of using them for something other than the intended loose tenons they were designed for?It looks to me like it would be a great way to cut the angled slots in louvered doors. A jig to hold the tool or wood at the correct angles and a means of spacing would make for very fast slot cutting. The jig can be made to let the Domino shift to make wider slots with 2 or more plunges at a given location before moving to the next position. Maybe if Lataxe can get his hands on one he could mount it in his WoodRat at an angle and pass the wood under with the X/Y crank.Anyone else have a thought along these lines?
Dan,
I'm sorry, I thought the Festool was a biscuit joiner. You have explained what it does and now I understand. I hope you are picking up on my on my sarcasm because I am laying it on pretty thick. Didn't you parents teach you if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all? Obviously you are a woodworker who has to have the best tools, because you defend Festool. Festool is nothing more than overpriced plastic tools that are designed for rich people who have nothing better to do with their money, apparently people like you. I am a very nice individual and try to help people on this forum, so don't tell me to go somewhere else. As a matter of fact, if that's the attitude you take with people on this site, go play in the street, we don't have time for you. There are too many good people on this forum trying to help one another. If people are rude, many people won't post because of hesitation about getting blasted by negative, rude people like you. Now if you are not going to be positive and try to help people, hurry along and go bother somebody else. By the way, did you send a rude note to everyone that called this tool a "biscuit joiner on steroids"? Nevermind, I dont have time for rude people like you.
Jeff
Dan,"if you enjoy making M&T by hand that is great but go discuss it in the hand held area not here."That is way out of line.Your posts have become a shrill endorsement of this Festool machine, and like another ardent "fan" of Festool on this forum, your posts have become pretty abrasive and obviously biased."The Domino . . . is super fast dead accurate . . ."Really? Have you used it? Super fast! Dead accurate! A tool is only as good as the craftsman running it. You've made the ridiculous generalization that slot mortisers as a class of machines are inferior to the Domino and now you've put down someone for making M&T by hand because you feel he posted in the "wrong" section.I think you need to take a step back from your abrasive endorsement of the Domino and from your totally out of place "topic cop" role. That dosen't go over well here.Rich
Hi all,Rather than go here again, I'd suggest ignore it, take a big deep breath and enjoy the break using the relaxation method of your choice - I don't know if Matt Berger's off on holidays this week - it could be a long week.What I did find enlightening was to click on the 'member profiles' of those involved in the last few posts.Cheers,eddie
(looking for that bottle of Scotch.)
eddie, Good point. Rich
Have been using the Domino fairly regularly for best part of a year. I am far less skilled than the machine itself and therefore find that it has a tendency to wander if used hand held, meaning slots sometimes don't line up. I still prefer a biscuit jointer which never seems to let ME screw up. In Europe Festool tools are even more over priced than they are in the US, but I am a fan as they are pretty precise and dependable and their boxes make them great for stacking and taking to site. I am ashamed to say that both biscuits and dominos solve problems for me that I would not be skilled enough to do manually.
Geeeeezee man!
Looks interesting, but at almost a grand for the thing and attachments, I can't see it for me as a hobbyist. I did spend $275 for the grizzly horizontal boring machine to cut floating tennons. I guess the big advantage of it over what I have is the premade fat biscuits, but I just don't see the value myself? I'm sure others will swear by it, but I just don't see it. That's my two cents worth.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/g0540
Your post really caught my eye. You mentioned that you purchased the Grizzly horizontal boring tool to use as a slot mortiser. I've been trying to come up with a way of either making or buying one economically. Is this a good way to go with that? How does it work as a slot mortiser? There's no mention of using it in that capacity in the PDF manual, but from the looks of it, it seems as though it would be sturdy enough and has all the movements needed to perform this function.
I would be greatly interested in hearing more about your experience with this...
Yours, Zolton
It's gone up in price, but it does just that. If you do a search here on that model, you will see others using it for the same purpose. I bought whiteside carbide bits for mine, but someone here suggested buying end-mills instead. They indicated they are much cheaper. Keep in mind the rpms of the is no where near a router, but it works fine.
Here is a link to my original post. Someone else here posed one, with a nice table top they made for theirs. I mean really it's just a good x y axis with a motor on it.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=5525.1
Sorry it took a while to get back to you, last minute shopping.
PS. They don't advertise it as a slot mortiser, but it does it a heck of a lot cheaper that the big names, good luck.
Bones,
Thank you for you reply re the horizontal boring machine business. You're really making me think here about getting one.
One option I thought of though, while thumbing through the Grizzly catalog in pursuit of the boring machine, would be to buy just what they call a "compound slide table." It looks similar to what you have on your HBM, but the table part is 5 1/2 x 12 inches. There is 8 inches of longitudinal travel and 5 transverse (x and y). The top is slotted for 1/2 inch T bolts. It would probably be easy to make up some hold-downs using these attachment points. A compound table of this size runs a hundred bucks. They also have a larger model, 6 x 18 1/2, for 120.00.
Then I'd set up a horizontal and adjustable plate to hold a router in position. That would give higher bit speeds for efficient wood removal and clean cuts, and the up and down adjustment would allow me to locate the mortise anywhere on the edge of the wood. Plus, the whole thing could probably be set up on a benchtop - which is a big factor for me in my small shop.
Anyway, thanks for the information and for putting the idea in my head... Zolton
The Domino will take a while to be accepted in the same way that the biscuit joiner did. It will become a common sight in the professional shops and in the well heeled amateur's too, but it will take time. When it was introduced in Australia about a year ago, they said the same kinds of things on their forum. Expensive, limited sizes of tenon, other tools do the same job so why buy another, etc. Once a few tried them out and started to extol their virtues (speed, accuracy, ease of use) the talk then turned towards exploring the possibilities and the pictures of the chairs, tables, and cabinets started to be posted. Since I am an amateur (not well heeled, unfortunately) and I have a Lamello, tenon sled for the table saw, WoodRat, and some chisels and mallets (so Lataxe doesn't feel alone) I won't be among the first to get one when they come out. However I will never rule one out as I can see its potential is only limited by the user.I will go out on a limb and predict that at this time next year someone will be posting about the Domino that Santa brought them. ;-)
QC,
"I will go out on a limb and predict that at this time next year someone will be posting about the Domino that Santa brought them".
I have shown your post to the ladywife, who complains that she never knows what to buy me for Christmas as I have anticipated her in January, February......December and bought every potential present myself.
"Look", I will suggest, "This Domino thing connects to the Festool vac we (including her in the ownership stakes always helps) already have, so we will save money......".
She has a similar argument concerning the purchase of 3 dresses rather then 1, when there is a sale down at the frock-shop, so she will be swayed by my sophistry - or so I hope.
Lataxe the spoilt
It makes a lovely Birthday/Anniversary/Valentines Day/"Just because I love you" gift too! Would it not?Trying to help.;-)Disclaimer. I am in no way shape or form associated with Festool. (Unless they want to give me free tools for shamelessly plugging their products.)
Bones,
I'm really interested in how that boring machine works. I had one on a Robland combi planer/jointer years ago and really miss it, (I sold the machine because it was "only" 10" wide). Can it cut 1/2" mortices? How smooth does the table slide? Is it powerful enough? At $275 it seems to good to be true.
As to the new Festool, my reaction is why? It only cuts small mortices that will not be any better than a double biscuit joint. I have never had one of those fail.
The link says it's $395 total cost.It also says it has 5/8" drill capacity, but I expect it'd be difficult to mortise with a bit that big and only 3/4 horse power.I also don't see any mention of variable speed which can make it difficult to use larger cutters.
The price went up last year, so it's more expensive now, but go price some slot morticers. I remember the one on david marks show was a huge chunk of change. As to the slide, it was fine. The stop mechanism is not the greatest, but I can live with that. Keep in mind that motor is not a router, it spins at 3450 with a chuck on the end. The main thing is it's surface is flat and horizontal to the work. I had no problems. Does it have limitations, you bet, but for what I got it for cuting a slot mortice in a piece of wood, works for me. Thats about all I can say. On the minus side it does take up some realestate in the shop, which is a pain for a piece of equipment that I only ocasionaly use. Do a search on slot morticers and you will find lots of information here. Good luck. Look at my response to the previous poster. I put a link to my original purchase and receipt. Good luck.
I had a chance to test drive the Domino, 'cause Festool's agent wants us to buy one.
First, it's a nicely engineered tool, as we've come to expect from them. Seems to be quite accurate and simple to set the fences.
The thought that immediately came into my mind was "let's make our own tenons - why use theirs?"
It does the job it's intended to do. The relatively small size of the tenons seems to be an unfortunate limitation. But it's my guess that a hand-held tool that made larger tenons would get too scary. I'll bet that they tried to develop doing larger sizes and backed away from it.
All in all, I doubt that we will buy one. The niche is too small to make it worthwhile. We do already have a portable doweller (Mafell) which is around the same cost as the Domino, and is quite useful for putting large cabinet pieces together. If I needed to choose between the two, I'd again buy the portable doweller.
A stationary slot mortiser will handle mortise work up to behemoth size. A portable mortiser would not get enough in-shop use to justify the price. And I wonder how many craftsmen need to do on-site mortise and tenons, aside from timberframers. The Domino is much too small for their needs.
Bottom line - I doubt that there's a significant niche for this tool
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Nice video and a very nice review, once again you have done a wonderful job presenting a new product. However, I feel that it's going to be a little too pricey. I've never owned a festool product or saw the advantages; this tool poses some new enticing features but not worth spending that money on. In my time I have never seen a professional wood worker/cabinet maker use festool products, only hobbyists, is that anyone else's personal experience?
It's not mine. Yes, there is a significant amateur market, but Festool make machines that usually perform at a level significantly above the best level of their competitors with ease. Their routers and sanders, for instance, are in a significantly higher performance bracket to brands like DeWalt and Porter Cable. Neither of these latter brands are poor quality, but Festool brands tend to perform better again. They have a reputation for reliability and durability under severe work conditions that tends to dwarf average tools, and customer service is reputed to be first rate.
Festool tend to be mentioned in the same breath as Lamello, Mafell and perhaps Metabo. It's true that these four brand names of power tools don't fill all the nooks and corners of every professional woodworker's tool cabinets, but they're not at all uncommon.
It's like everything else in life. You pay your money, and you tend to only get only what you pay for. For instance, if I needed a hand held router to work hard five or six hours a day, five or six days a week I'd almost certainly not pick a Ryobi or a DIY chain own brand router. In that case it would almost certainly be a toss up between a Mafell and Festool. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Their sander is one of their tools that has appealed to me. I didn't like their cordless drill. I'm perfectly happy with my dewalt biscuit jointer, or my porter cable routers, belt sander, neumatic palm ROS, and nailers. I guess I just haven't caught on to festool yet, if they had more competitive prices I'm sure they would gain a lot more notice by the professional market. I do respect the quality of their tools though; they seem to have listened to woodworkers needs and fixed all those little qwerks you wish you had on your tools and otherwise had to buy as an accessory where on the festool product it comes standard. Maybe some day soon...
I think it's all relative, bps.You guys have a lot lower prices. Here, we pay USD450 for a quality biscuit Jointer (Makita, et al) and about USD 500 for a Freud.The Domino is still dear (about USD1200-) all up.Festool are bought by pro shops here - if tool prices were so cheap that other brands were were throwaway, then it could be different. Festo, as you know, compete on quality, not on price, and have established themselves a good little niche.If I didn't have a biscuit Jointer, I'd buy a Domino machine if I needed to. I've got a slot mortiser, so I'll keep using that.Cheers,eddie
Absolutely not my experience. My shop has 2 Festool 6" ROS that get used all the time. We spent years using Bosch and others, replacing them every 6 months or so when they died. The Festool sanders are built to higher standards, and they wind up being much cheaper in the long run. Also - the DC on Festool is a notch above thye others as well. I know of a (pro) shop who uses it just because of the DC.David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
I'll keep my WoodRat thank you.
Looks like an intersting tool that could be nice for making cabinet doors and other small projects. Also good when shop space is limited. Of course it is expensive like all of Festools products but looks like it works well right out of the box.
Troy
Almost forgot you can send one to me for a few months, I have a kitchen that my wife wants me to do. I could let you know how it works after that, if you could send the vacuum as well that would be great;)
Merry Xmas Troy
I think floating tenon, biscuit, dowel, and pocket hole joinery can each be just as efficacious in certain applications as mortise and tenon joinery.
In fact, I see some M&T joints made on webcasts and telecasts that are so loose or so tight.. that the joint would probably be better served by a couple of biscuits or pocket hole screws.
My problem with the Festool offering is it's price.. which I believe will relegate it to a very limited market.
I, for example, own a benchtop mortiser, a biscuit joiner, a pocket hole system and a doweling jig.
How can someone like me possibly justify a floating tenon machine that would set me back nearly $1000 for the complete system?
Maybe a production bedmaker (as long as its not Richard Jones) would spring for such an innovation.
i was thinking about the cost of the festool products too. ever since someone posted about a response to complaints about said cost. his response was along the lines of, if you want quality tools they cost more money to produce and therefore more money to buy. we can choose to buy lesser quality for less money and that's fine. this made a lot of sense to me. i've had tools that i thought were quality and turned out to be less than i desired. the point seems similar to the furniture produced with tools. there is lots of low quality inexpensive furniture for sale. it often doesn't't last and must be replaced frequently. many woodworkers here produce quality furniture and are paid accordingly. the prices for that quality furniture often seem outrageous to people who see similar furniture for sale at a fraction of the price. we know the difference. the festool argument seems very similar to me.
this is a explanation of the cost that made sense to me personally. it's not an argument in favor of or against festool.
Dan, The Domino is anything but revolutionary. It's simply a specialized router, and a very expensive one at that, developed to find a niche. It will make some jobs easier for some workers but it will in no way chnge the nature of joinery. But you have in this post identified your self in your angry manic excitement and overbearing manner as someone who's presence is much less than constructive. Rich
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