Fine Woodworking just did a piece on the Festool Domino tool, which is basically a biscuit joiner which uses a “spinning and oscillating bit” to make an easy mortise. Believe it or not last year after I bought and used my first biscuit joiner I found myself wondering why someone had not already invented the Festool type mortise tool, or perhaps someone already had and I just don’t know about it. Since the relatively simple Festool “biscuit” type mortise maker is ridiculously expensive, I was wondering if anybody knew of similar type products on the market?
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Replies
I saw a vid on the Festool Domino located on this site. It's a very interesting tool. I didn't notice a price however. Do you have a ball park cost? It may be one of those tools for the WW that has everything.
RGJ
Edited 1/13/2007 4:56 pm ET by RGJ
According to the Fine Woodworking article the Festool Domino will cost about $700 plus $200 for a “starter kit” which includes 4 cutters and a 1000 tenons. This thing is going to cost about the same as a mid-size table saw. I think this is way too much for what is basically a modification on a biscuit joiner. On the bulletin board I was asking people if they knew of any other company that produced a similar product?
steveky,
The Festool Domino will be available in the US in March or April. No price seen on it as of yet.
One correction. You said the Domino is "basically a biscuit joiner." That's not really true. It LOOKS like a biscuit joiner. But it's designed to be a hand-held loose-mortise-and-tenon machine. Loose mortise and tenons have been used for a long time with good results, often rivaling the strength of mortise-and-tenon joints.
I believe the Domino is a breakthrough concept that a lot of people will really like. I'll post information about the tool when I get a chance to use one!!
Edited 1/13/2007 4:23 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
According to the Fine Woodworking article the Festool Domino will cost about $700 plus $200 for a “starter kit” which includes 4 cutters and a 1000 tenons. This thing is going to cost about the same as a mid-size table saw. I think this is way too much for what is basically a modification on a biscuit joiner. On the bulletin board I was asking people if they knew of any other company that produced a similar product?
steveky,
Yes, you're right, in the Fine Woodworking video they did say it would be about $700.But again, this really has nothing to do with biscuit joiners. Yes, the Domino LOOKS like a biscuit joiner, but in operation, it does something very, very different. It's really a whole new concept for loose tenons.On your other question, no one else has made a hand-held loose-tenoning system. But there are lots of bench-top machines. They often go for about the same price as the Domino (assuming the $700 price).In my opinion, the Domino will be a great tool to have in the shop. I've been wanting to do more loose-tenoning, and this will help me!
I agree and think the Domino would be a great tool to have but the price is too much for a non-pro. I just bought a bench top mortiser for less than $250. I suspect the Feestool people are trying to recover their R&D costs quickly. If I’m not mistaken most of their tools are on the expensive side. I think I’ll wait until another company comes out with their less expensive imitation of the tool.
isn't there a loose tenon setup that can be done with a drilling jig? i thought someone was selling those tenons and the jig used with a hand held drill. the idea is you drill about 3 or 4 holes side by side with the jig and use the pre-made tenons. that's got to be cost effective.
yes, i just looked it up and it's called bead lock. something in the neighborhood of $50 and it apparently has good reviews. i read one online.
if you want to do easy tenons, don't like the price of the domino and are willing to take a bit more time then viola! here you go.
i personally don't think a quality tool like the domino made by festool is so overpriced. you may not need it or want it at that price, but look at the lower quality stuff we can buy at the big stores now for a "good price." i'm glad to see a quality tool company option available for those who want it.
Edited 1/13/2007 8:28 pm ET by gmoney
Edited 1/13/2007 8:33 pm ET by gmoney
steveky,
Do you own Festool tools? I used to think they were on the expensive side, but after using them I realize they are in a whole different class than other tools of the same type. They are more comfortable to use, safer, more versatile, they are made better, and their saws and routers form a very nice tool system.It's rather difficult to pinpoint how much more a tool is worth. The marketplace does a good job of figuring that out somehow.
Sir I have no doubt Festool makes fine tools but for me woodworking is a hobby and not a profession. Although I feel fortunate in saying I can afford to buy the tool, I simple cannot justify spending nearly $1000 (for everything necessary) for any hand-held tool.
From what I've read a significant attraction of the domino system is speed. Time is money. There are probably other attributes that will prove to be valuable to users.
The marketplace will judge whether Festool has a winner or loser here.
FWIW, if I recall correctly, the original Lamello biscuit joiners were $500, and the biscuits were none too cheap. That was 20 years ago...
I've been using a festool domino for about a year now. They came out over here in Australia then. But they are absolutly terrific. People might complain about the price, but your getting a festool. IMHO the best engineered tools on the market. This tool will make a mortise for you in the same time a biscut jointer will make a hole for the biscut. It's fast, it's strong. I will never use dowels again, now that this machine is here. Plus the tool cost about 1200-1400 Australian dollars. Which is about 900 to 1100 US.Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Kaleo,
SInce you already have the domino, I hope you don't mind if I ask you a few questions.
I am currently using small biscuits to assemble face frames for kitchen cabinets. The domino looks appealing because it would seem to be much stronger than the biscuits. How accurately do the holes line up after cutting? I notice that the accuracy on a biscuit joiner depends a lot on how you hold the machine. Sometimes I get less than perfectly flush results which require a lot of sanding. I was wondering if the oscillating movement threw off the location of the hole any?
Also, I will be mortising the ends of 1 3/4" stock on a regular basis, just wondering if you had tried something like this and how well it worked. I use a few scrap blocks on either side of the face frame piece to kind of stabilize the joiner, again, with mixed results.
Thanks in advance for any input you might have,
Lee
Lee,
Yes, Domino is much, much more precise than a biscuit joiner, and it is absolutely perfect for faceframes. Not only are the joints perfectly flush every time, but the lateral position is perfect too. Yes, it will mortise 1-3/4 inch stock.So far I have used about 200 tenons, and I get more pleased with Domino each time I use it.
The question has already been answered in the thread. But it works a lot like a biscut jointer that it registers off a flat face. It has finer adjustments, but I have yet to get mortises that have not lined up. I personally think this machine is perfect. It's easy to use and you just get great results every time.Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Rick/Kaleo,
Thanks Guys, I think I will give it a try when it comes out. I'm looking for a stronger alternative to biscuits and a little less sanding.
Lee
A stronger alternative to biscuits?
This is just my experience, but the system of joining with biscuits with water containing glues resulting in expansion of the biscuit gives a joint where the biscuit does not let go. On the other hand a M&T joint, however well fitting, not too tight and not too loose, must still be assembled with care to avoid glue starvation or hydraulic compression if too much glue is applied and then clean up has to take place. All this is added to just cutting the slots.
On balance in my view joining with biscuits is more flexible, quicker, cleaner and subject to less variables than playing with dominos.
Muf,
Points well taken, you have some valid ones. What I'm noticing is I can flex the joints where the pieces meet at a 90 degree angle to the point where the joint will open slightly. But my main beef is that I can't always get the top edges flush with each other. I'm sure that a part of that is operator error(me) but I'm noticing that the porter cable 557? joiner I have has a small amount of flex at the fence. I also have the dewalt and it's fence is solid as a rock. Trouble is, the dewalt has only 1 blade size, the porter cable offers a smaller blade to fit their smaller face frame biscuits.
So..... Does any other biscuit joiner manufacturer offer smaller biscuits and a smaller blade to fit them? Maybe Lamello, or another? I keep hearing how great their joiners are, and I know there are some other super high quality machines out there, but will they work for my application? BTW, I am joining 1 3/4" wide pieces together for face frames at mostly right angles, the size 0, 10, and 20 biscuits are all too wide for my application.
Thanks
Lee
I tried to find a small joiner also, and saw on the web that ryobi were reintroducing their small machine to your market, but not to the UK.
Do you recall the arguements against using dowels for the very good reason that they give poor long grain to long grain jointing surfaces? I feel that the Festool inserts fall in the same category when compared to conventional mortice and tenon joints and biscuit joints.
Happy hunting, David
Sir when you say Ryobi is introducing “their small machine to the market” - exactly what type of joiner is it?
A biscuit joiner good buddy. Ryobi used to sell one here in the UK, a low price job that would do for narrow face frames and the like. When I looked for it on the web a few months back I found it no longer listed here, but mention that it was being re-issued in the States.
I have that exact biscuit joiner. It is sold at Home Depot for under $100, and believe it or not it does a good job.
I have just had another look, it's the DBJ50K with biscuits R1 R2 and R3 for face framing, 120volt durn it. Why don't they do it here at 240 volt?
I’m not familiar with the European electrical system. Do they make a converter that will allow you to use 120 on 240 or the other way around?
Lee, I have a PC-557, and haven't noticed any play in the fence. But, I don't really use the fence to align the slots. (I started out with a borrowed Craftsman/Ryobi mini-joiner and developed methods to compensate for that tool. The PC-557 is far tighter than that PoS.) I do that by putting the work piece on the bench with the reference side down, and setting the joiner on the table next to it and feeding forward to make the cut. If I want to raise the height, I use shims under the base of the joiner, I keep a scrap of laminate, an 1/8th-inch piece of plywood and one of 1/4-in plywood handy. The slots are always aligned and the biscuits go in with a very slight finger pressure.
As to other manufacturers with the smaller FF blade, I am not aware of any manufacturers making one. The arbor size on the Porter Cable is 7/8-inch, and most others use a 22-mm arbor. The difference is 0.009-inhces, and the biscuit joiner isn't spinning real fast. So, you might be able to put it on those machines and make a decent cut, but I think you will run into problems with not enough forward movement available to get a full depth cut. Sears may still sell the Craftsman/Ryobi mini joiner, but I won't recommend it.
Try cutting them on the flat, if you don't already, and see if that tightens things up for you. I started doing it with the Ryobi because I couldn't ever seem to keep things steady enough to get good tight slots, (plus the fence wasn't square), and it has worked well for me. Go to the Woodhaven site, and look at their biscuit master jig. It is pretty simple to make something along those lines. I did something similar for the "utility" bench to include the main features. If your doing just face frames it really only needs to work for 90-degree setups. I think, I still have drawing of the jig somewhere, (if not it wouldn't take long to redraw. If you would like I'll send you a copy or post it in the jigs section.
Jigs,
After my last post I went back out into the shop to double check the joiner to make sure I was correct. It seems that there is a small amount of play in the fence. It also seems that there is also a small amount of play where the grinder motor attaches to the base that it slides back and forth on. I guess the play in both is not significant until you add them together. I did c-clamp a scrap to the edge of my table to use as a lateral stop (the joiner seems to want to pull to the left) and also clamped a piece for a depth stop. This way I'm not concentrating on holding the workpiece down to keep from pushing it back with the joiner. That seemed to help a bit. I did also think about referencing against the bottom of the joiner and cutting the slots with the workpiece upside down. I will be experimenting with that next time.
As for the drawing, I would love to see it. I'm on my way next to the woodhaven site to see what you are talking about.
Lee
Lee, I just checked and don't have the drawing file any more. if you can measure the base on your joiner, I can crank through one for you in less than thirty minutes, and it will be improved from the old one, because I learned a few lessons on the last one. Basically it is a 2-ft X 2-ft piece of 3/4 plywood with some face frame scraps screwed to it to restrain the joiner from moving sideways when you make the cut, while holding the parts in place and alignment so the slots are centered in the ends of the styles, and end up where they need to be in the rails. By working with the good face down, you don't have to worry about your layout marks showing, so it is pretty quick to use.
Jigs,
Thanks for the offer. The P/C 557 base is 5 1/4" wide by 5 3/4" long. I did check out the woodhaven jig. Looks great but I think I would move the toggle clamp to vertical, centered over the bit. That way I could cut the ends of the horizontal pieces and the sides of the vertical pieces without moving the toggle clamp. What do you think?
Lee
Lee, this is the drawing of the jig. It is color coded and should be pretty straight forward to build let me know if you have any questions.
I designed it for 1-3/4 stock, to be constructed from scrap pieces of stock, and a 2X2 piece of 3/4 plywood. If you have a planer, then thin up the guides that will be attached just a bit (1/32 to 1/16), so the work piece will be slightly proud when the jig is in use. It is easier to hold the stock in place when you cut it that way.
If you are going to do lots of face frames, you might want to make a plate out of 1/4-inch tempered hardboard or mdf, with a piece of "router mat" attached, and attach it to the fence of your joiner so it grips the stock as you push down.
Jigs,
I hate to ask you this, but when I click on the link, the page is blank. Could you email it to me at home? [email protected]
Thanks,
Lee
Lee,
Lamello offer a small blade for their joiners and associated biscuits - but at their usual high prices for the blade. The biscuits were the usual price though. I did find a website showing this gear, some time ago; but unfortunately can't find it now.
As I remember the bicuits (and blade kerf) were 3mm rather than the 4mm of normal biscuits. Can't remember the other dimensions but they are smaller than a No 0 biscuit.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
You're a gentleman and a scholar! I haven't had a chance to google the Lamello, but I thought there was another manufacturer that made them smaller biscuits. I think I might try a jig to hold the joiner stable to a jig or table, and cut the slots face down. If I can't get the results I'm after, then I will decide if I want to spend the cash on the Lamello or the Domino. Some chap has a Lamello in the classifieds here at knots. $600, barely used. I didn't realise they were that expensive. I'm sure you get what you pay for, though.
Take care,
Lee
Lataxe,
Just back from the Lamello site, and I can't find mention of face-frame sized biscuits or the associated cutters. They do have some specialty cutters for grooving, etc., but I did not see mention of one specifically for face frames nor did I see a biscuit smaller than #0. Maybe it was another manufacturer? I'll keep checking.
Lee
Edit:
Now I see the problem! I was looking on the Lamello site. I found the biscuits on Amazon.com. They are H9 size. No cutter, though. Funny they wouldn't mention that on their own site?
Found the cutter on the net. $119 plus shipping. But it can only be used on the Top 20 ($600) machine. So...... For $700 I would be in business. Sounds like not much price difference between that and the Domino......
Edited 1/16/2007 8:35 am by mapleman
Edited 1/16/2007 8:39 am by mapleman
Oh this is priceless. You are suggesting that a pressed composite spline of 1/8" thickness is stronger than a solid-wood tenon ranging from 3/16" to 3/8"? Moreover, where the penetration of the spline is a maximum of 3/8" versus a tenon penetration ranging from 5/8" to 1-1/8"?
Where did you get this information from? Under what engineering philosophy is a spline stronger than a tenon? You do understand the difference between a spline and a tenon don’t you, and also the tensile strengths of wood across the grain versus with the grain?
What I have noticed in all of these discussions about Domino is that the most vocal opponents are those that have never seen one, or spent much time researching it. Both biscuits and Domino tenons have glue-pockets pressed into the surface for the same reason; to permit glue adhesion in a tight space.
Your last statement is the most puzzling, so it is pretty obvious that you have never seen a Domino. By more flexible do you mean that your biscuit can be used on narrow frame stock, say 3/4" wide? How can biscuits be “quicker” when the operation of the tool is the same? The same question goes for being cleaner? As for being “subject to less variables,” doesn’t that go toward “flexibility” and therefore contradict your first point?
It’s one thing to argue that Domino is expensive and you can’t afford to buy one, but it is quite another to throw out outlandish claims about what it can or cannot do without ever seeing one, and certainly before you’ve ever tried one.
IIRC, Fine Woodworking did a really nice article on it a few years back. They loaded various configurations of butt joints to failure, under shear and torsional loading. The loose tenon failed under less load than a double biscuit. However the biscuits failed catastrophically, where as the loose tenon failed progressively and still had most of it's initial strength after the failure.
But in joining face frames, I am not sure either method will ever actually be loaded to anything close to failure. So, it comes down to which ever method is most expedient for the builder.
Jigs, The FWW article to which you refer was a totally worthless exercise. I have commented on this many times here. I ought to save my detailed "canned response." It was one of the worst pieces to ever appear in FWW. The "experiment" was a mish-mash of completely uncontrolled variables and resultant numbers which meant absolutely nothing. Rich
Rich: Design an experiment that you think is valid;
find an engineering student looking for a research topic, that has access to a real lab with testing equipment they can use; (Dependign on where you live this could be quite easy, i.e. North Carolina, which still has a sizable furniture manufacturing presence.)
Run your experiment, analyse the data, write and submit an article to Fine Woodworking for publication.
The topic is obviously still of concern to woodworkers so if you can write a good article on the subject they will probably publish it.
IIRC, one of the coauthors was a furniture design engineer for one of the manufacturers and the experiment was basically geared towards gathering the data he needed for his design work. And, I remember having some reservations when I read the article, about the general applicability. But I am fairly sure it answered his questions. Based on the results I would not use a biscuit in anything where catastrophic failure is a safety issue, i.e. seating, but would use biscuits for tables, chests, and other fixed pieces that have a pretty consistent loading.
Jigs,The article was, "Choosing the Strongest Joinery for Doors, by John D. Wagner. It appeard in an issue of FWW whose number I have lost and was reprinted in Taunton's, "Practical Design, Soutions and Strategies," which I have.On the second page, Wagner wrote, "It would be a stretch to call these tests a rigorous scientific examination." Yet, that's what the article did, presenting worthless data as though the numbers had meaning.The methods were hopelessly flawed with no control of wildly disparate variables. The only thing proved was that it's possible to glue pieces of wood together, it's possible to break them apart (in a number of inconsistent ways), and it's possible to record some stress value on a scale when the wood breaks, or when it almost breaks, or when it kind of breaks, even when it doesn't actually break, and call any of these events end points.Then it's possible to display these "findings," even findings generated by a single sample, in a table so they look like something is being compared to something else.Then people quote this study, over the years, like you have, Jigs, as though there is something in it to support biscuits. One of the conclusions was that a door's rail and stile joint is stronger with biscuits than with a mortise and tenon joint. Do you know any door manufacturers who use biscuits in their rail and stile joints? Would you?Rich
Assuming we're talking about the same article, I got a different interpretation from the results. The article did a fine job explaining that joint failure can be interpreted in different ways. They showed how mortise-and-tenon joints begin to come apart but still maintain good strength, while biscuits lose all their strength more suddenly.
Why can't we compare different joints by applying pressure on them, then quantifying the pressure it took to make them fail, and documenting how completely they failed? That seems like a valid comparison to me. When it comes to joint strength, what do we care most about when we build? I think most people would say it's the ability to maintain strength under various stresses. That's what the test reported on.
From a safety point of view, the relative levels of failure are significant. Of course, from an aesthetic point of view, a cracked mortise-and-tenon joint might as well be called "failed ."
But regarding the Domino: loose mortise-and-tenon joints have long been regarded as near-equals to classic mortise-and-tenons. That's where the Domino comes in. I've used biscuits successfuly for certain applications, but the Domino has very little in common with biscuits.
Edited 1/16/2007 2:26 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
Matt I love the Domino and I enjoyed looking at it on the web link you passed along, but as a non-pro I just can’t justify spending nearly $1000 for a hand-tool and starter kit. Your enthusiasm for this product is very high and I was just wondering if you’re a representative of Festool?
steveky,I can certainly understand your perspective on the Domino. My feeling is this: if you are looking for a system to do loose mortise-and-tenon joinery, it would make sense. Another thing to consider is that hobby woodworkers often spend about that much money on similar tools. It's rather difficult to determine the worth of a tool, and the Domino certainly opens up some interesting questions.
I think it will be fascinating to see what happens as this tool rolls out.
No, I am not a representative of Festool. About three years ago, I bought my first Festool tool, and was so impressed with the quality and ergonomics I got some other tools from them. I'm one of those people who just gets passionate about a job well done, and that's what Festool does! Festool is not the only company I feel this way about. I've been pretty passionate about other tools that have done a great job for me.
Edited 1/16/2007 3:35 pm ET by MatthewSchenker
I appreciate your enthusiasm. Four years ago I didn’t know how to join two pieces of wood together and now I thoroughly enjoy making real furniture. One thing I’ve learned (this is not a put-down Festool or any other companies products) is that unlike metal that you can turn to fine tolerances and count on it maintaining it’s shape, working with wood requires certain artistic skills. You can cut the wood the right way with the best tools every time, but usually you’ll have to sand or chisel on something to make it fit just right. It almost never works out as perfect as it always does on the wood working TV shows.
steveky,
Yes, and with metal you don't have to deal with glue-ups! That's the most nerve-wracking part of woodworking projects for me.
Don’t get me started on glue-ups. I’ve gotten to the point where I won’t even consider using glue until I do a thorough dry-fit, which includes clamp placement. I’ve burned myself too many times with the glue by thinking everything was going to fit together properly and giving no advance thought to how I was going to place the clamps. Real panic sets it when you have glued it all together and then realize you have to quickly come up with a creative clamping method.
I've been down the same road! I've learned that planning the glue-up phase is as important as determining the sizes of the various parts of your project. You can't just say, "OK, at that point I'll glue things up."Actually, this glue-up conversation dovetails nicely with he whole idea of biscuits. There is a lot of debate about the usefulness of biscuits, but they can help you sometimes during the glue-up phase.
Mathew,
I am at a loss to know why you get bashed, really. You must have been elected "pariah of the year" in a secret ballot.
But this to the side. You say:
"Why can't we compare different joints by applying pressure on them, then quantifying the pressure it took to make them fail, and documenting how completely they failed? That seems like a valid comparison to me".
I would agree with that.
The various tests of biscuits, vs loose tenons vs standard M&T all seem to test something like racking forces. Personally I think these are the least worry. What destroys joints of all kinds is cycles of humidity and dryness (then racking forces on the weakened joint). I would like to see a longer term test that emulated these cycles (and speeded them up, within reason) over, say 1, 3, 6, 12, 25 and 50 "years".
My intuition is that handmade M&T would go first, then handmade loose tenons then machined M&T then biscuits - based on the tighness of the mating surfaces and the degrees of x-grain glue area.
But wouldn't an actual experiment be a great truth-teller?
Lataxe
Good lord, do calm down and do not read what I did not say.
First, "in my experience" and "in my view". I gave my opinions.
Second, no mention of a thin biscuit being stronger than a thick tenon in isolation and out of context.
Third, although I did not say so, I have handled and tried the Festool at a show, and also watched a demonstrator make a complete hash of using it. It was offered to me with the extra cutters and tenons at a good discount and I turned it down because it does not do anything that I cannot do by other easier means at my disposal, and I have a horror of single function inovation. The biscuits I use are not pre-glued and I like to choose the glue I use.
Now, it is first principles that surfaces glued long grain to long grain result in better adhesion than those glued end grain to end or long grain. Conventional tenons (and loose tenons) result in the most long to long grain surface, then biscuits, then dowels, but you know this.
If, as I have over the years, you have knocked apart various joints for repair or to save good wood, you may have found that commercial work very often is easier to dismantle because the joints are glue starved on assembly, negating the careful work of manufacture. Joints made with biscuits (not a biscuit) by the very nature of the beast are usually well glued and in my experience the hardest to part without breaking the wood.
You do not have to agree with my opinions, I will not be upset.
Don’t know what makes you think I was upset, but I wasn’t. I found your misguidance amusing, but certainly not something to get upset about.
Kaleo,
I'm actually considering this purchase. Do you happen to know whether the joints will be strong enough for a dining room table? Or is it mostly for smaller tables? I really want to start building tables in a more production environment and I can see that this would speed up the process tremendously and would pay itself back in no time...Regards,
Buzzsaw
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I might be prejudiced being a Festool dealer but absolutely. A floating tenon is about as strong as a regular tenon BUT and this is important you have to size the joint correctly. For a big table you need big tenons and the material needs to be thick enough to take the mortise properly. The basic rules of joinery still hold. And since we are dealing with a floating tenon you have to be consistent in your gluing. However there is no reason you should believe me or in fact anyone. Go to your local Festool dealer (we are in New York City - so that may be a little far for you) with a few table like parts pre-cut and try out the Domino yourself. Bring the parts back to your shop and glue it up. Then do a test yourself. (call ahead so the store has time to let you do this). joel
tools for working wood
How about using the Domino for chairs?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Chairs?
Why not? Again it's a question of sizing everything and while I personally haven't tried it (yet) I know of others who have. As another poster said, in Europe it is changing joinery and increasing options of what can be done in furniture design. joel
As a Festool dealer maybe you can answer a question. Is it true that you have to sell Festool products at a price that Festool sets?
He will say yes. But apparently, the Supreme Court has just agreed to hear a case (about a dress shop selling designer clothes) that may have an impact on the manufacturers' (including Festool) right to set the price for retailers of their products.So until the SC decides otherwise, Festool is well within its legal rights to set prices.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I think the talk on this issue around here is off. This case really is an attempt to get the Sup. Ct. to allow many more manufacs. to set the pricing without facing any antitrust charges. If the plantiff wins rather than making Festool change its ways, many more may follow Festool.
What I know I picked up over at the Festool forum, but from the way they're talking there, the case will test the manufacturer's right to set retail prices (for retailers).We'll see............EDIT: The info comes from a piece in the Dallas Morning News:http://tinyurl.com/3yb4po********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Edited 4/1/2007 1:49 am by nikkiwood
Everyone wants a good price - but they also want a good product and good service.I am one who prefers the good product and good service and , therefore refuse to buy my tools and equipment from Lowes and Home Depot. I support, in every way I can, my local Electrical Tool and Supply. I may pay $5 more but they are there when I need them. e.g. I bought an expensive router bit, but when I tried it at home it did not give me the profile I wanted. They exchanged it no questions asked. If a tool is broken, 9 out of 10 times they will fix it free of charge. I appreciate that.The quest for the bottom in pricing has led to the increasing decline in quality and product reliability. If Festool's price is too high - don't buy it! We, as buyers, have the ultimate control when it comes to judging "VALUE" - the balance between cost and quality.Frosty
I think that article confirms what I read: the law now limits the right to set minimum prices; the Sup Ct. will here the case that may overturn that law. It's an appeal from a verdict in favor of small store that awarded damages.
The way I understand it, manufacturers may set a policy that they will not sell to any retailer that discounts the product (or has other practices the manufacturer doesn't like.) This basically honors the concept of private property where the regulations can't make you sell if you don't want to, unless you are doing it for a forbidden purpose--such as gaining a monopoly or discriminating racially . (Colgate doctrine.) Manufacturers can act unilaterally.
Manufacturers can't, however, make an agreement with a retailer not to discount. Under the precedent of the Dr. Miles case, such an agreement is illegal on its face (per se).
The current issue is only indirectly about permitting manufacturers to negotiate agreements to maintain prices. Leegin Creative Leather in the case before the supreme court, attacks the rule that says it is automatically illegal to make such an agreement, no matter why, or what the intent and would call for examination of the particular facts (rule of reason) in determining whether an situation involved an illegal price fixing agreement. Since bringing cases under the rule of reason standard would be much, much more expensive and uncertain of outcome, many fewer cases might be brought, so manufacturers might attempt to skirt the rules more often.
So, Festool can unilaterally set its pricing policy, and the Supreme Court isn't likely to change that based on the current case.
By the way, I'm not a lawer, so I may have misunderstood the legal issues. I hope not. I am not trying to argue one way or the other as to whether this is a good or bad practice. Way too complex, and possibly too contentious, for discussion here.
Steve,I'm not a lawyer either, so I couldn't begin to understand the nuances of the applicable statutes.As I mentioned earlier, there was someone who came through one of these threads a few months ago who did seem to understand these things, and according to him, Festool is within their rights to set prices for retailers -- at least given the current law. I do find it odd that amidst our wild and wooly, discount crazy capitalist system that some manufacturers can still get away with what amounts to price-fixing. But I also think Festool's marketing strategy is still evolving, and it will be interesting to see what happens in the next couple of years. Whatever one may think about Festool and its products, I think most would agree the marketing strategy was brilliantly conceived and executed. I would imagine that the Harvard B-school has already written up a Festool case study <G>.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I am a lawyer, though not in this area. Sounds like Steve has a good handle on the issues. Now this is a guess but maybe Festool has arranged its operation so that the characterization of the control is different. The few Festool products I bought from Japan Woodworker came directly from a Festool warehouse in Nevada. The store only had demo models except when the Festool guy was at the store. This leads me to wonder if Festool maintains control/ownership of the tool until it has been ordered. Such as set up probably creates a different legal relationship. Again, I'm just speculating.
Historically, all tool manufacturers controlled their selling prices. In the 50's and early 60's, you would be paying list price for a Porter-Cable or Black & Decker or Milwaukee or Stanley power tool. Discounting did not occur - at least on the face of it.
Tools were sold by large lumber yards and industrial suppliers and if you were a volume purchaser, you got a 10% discount on your monthly invoice. So the Porter-Cable 315 saw that you bought for retail would end up getting lumped into the 10% off on the monthly invoice. That technique and market forces finally saw the demise of fixed retail prices.
Festool's strategy is not any different than Bose or Hilti who also tightly control who sells their products and the pricing. And we forget that much of the world doesn't have the intense competitive environment that we have in the US. Many German nationals that work here love the assignment because they can load up on consumer goods that are sold at retail back home. One German couple I know bought their VW here and had it shipped back to Germany - all at a substantial savings over buying one when they returned to Germany.
Festool has a niche, high end market and they will be able to maintian their strategy for some time. Market forces may eventually cause them to bend a little but I don't see any dramatic changes. And it really is a win also for the retailer - they are getting a reasonable margin in an otherwise tough competitive marketplace. I can't blame them for getting their share of the price.
"Many German nationals that work here love the assignment because they can load up on consumer goods that are sold at retail back home. One German couple I know bought their VW here and had it shipped back to Germany - all at a substantial savings over buying one when they returned to Germany."
This has more to do with the exchange rate than it does with discount pricing. When I was in Germany in the 80's you could buy a Mercedes or BMW and ship it back to the states for 2/3 of what it would cost to buy it here. Back then the dollar was much stronger than the mark.
Rob
You raise a good point - exchange rates do cause considerable differences. But there is also a cultural difference in retailing - you won't find the abundance of discount merchandisers in European countries that we have here. The German's I know are amazed at the density of discount stores even in small towns - Wal-Mart, Costco, Kmart, Target, etc. that you find across the US. And there are amazed at the depth of discounting such as auto parts - in my small town, we have two auto parts stores that guarantee they'll beat anyone else's prices. I don't think that mentality is prevalent in many European countries.
ETG,
You wrote: "One German couple I know bought their VW here and had it shipped back to Germany - all at a substantial savings over buying one when they returned to Germany."I agree with most of what you wrote in your post, but remember that some VW models sold in the US are actually made in Mexico so that they can be sold more cheaply here, and there is a substantial difference in the average wage in Mexico and Germany, so that couple you know may not have actually brought back a truly equivalent product as sold on the German market.
(Side note on German products in the U.S.: the Gummibärchen you can buy here also aren't made in the Bonn sweets factory, but elsewhere, and actually contain different ingredients...) (And this isn't unique to the Germans; the last can of Guinness I consumed was apparently brewed in New Brunswick.)
Cheers,
Andy, German teacher and driver of a Mexican-made VW
Yes, where something is made can be both important and unimportant. We are really in a global marketplace so we really have to get over worrying about where something is made (some Delta machine parts are made elsewhere and brought to Tennessee for assembly - muddying the definition of where it is "made"). The point I was trying to make is that our US marketplace reflects "what's the lowest price?" for an item.
The Europeans - and in particular, Germans - are amazed at our "discount store" mentality. And we find dicounts for all kinds of consumer goods - cars, books, clothes, tools, etc. I see many posts on this site and Breaktime about folks going out of their way to save a few dollars on a $150 battery drill kit. And we have the opportunity to do that while our European friends don't have as much competitiveness in their retail markets. And when they come here, they delight in visiting the outlet malls and discount stores. Hence when we get a Festool with a ridgid pricing structure, for many of us it is alien to what we are used to. Heck, there are web sites that will give you up-to-date total pricing (including shipping) for a specific model tool so you can hone in on the lowest available price - many times only a dollar or two less than a competitor. And we Americans seem to thrive on getting that "great buy, best price" which goes against the whole Festool selling strategy.
ETG,Agreed 100%. I really appreciate your point that the Festool pricing strategy is alien to Americans. I think that Americans sometimes find it frustrating when a business (or other endevour) doesn't strive to meet the greatest possible spectrum of the population. Even if it isn't expensive, it is "elitist" (requiring education to appreciate) or to be scoffed at as "inefficient." What's funny is that Festool doesn't seem concerned with it. Since they aren't answering to the pressures of shareholders (it is family owned, I believe), they can grow their business at a slower rate than would be acceptable to a company that sells goods through HomeDepot etc. Festool could be so much bigger, yet would lose what makes it special. One of the things that makes it special, in my estimation, is that they train and maintain a workforce of happy German laborers. We have educated professionals in this country that earn less per year and have crappier health insurance than those women assembling Domino jointers over there in Stuttgart or wherever they are. When companies operate like that, the "profits" are less easily measured. Now, there are aspects of the quality of life that drive me up a wall in Germany, but I think that we can learn a lot from the German way of doing business these days (they've learned from some very bad mistakes). I would love to see more American businesses pursuing this kind of path (and I live in a place where many local businesses do measure profit in ways more sophisticated than the bottom line). Although I don't use power tools for furniture-making, I do have a Festool for some home-improvement tasks, and I have to say: good on them for holding the line in the face of things in the U.S. (Note that some other cool German tool companies don't even bother to bring their business here -- I don't think we even need to speculate why).
-Andy
Yes I agree with you. Festool has the added advantage that they are a high end niche market that appeals to select groups. You won't find a contractor looking for the best price on a router that ultimately will be stolen from a job site looking at Festool. Interestingly, Porter Cable (and others like Sioux) also has some models that fit in that niche - the 314 worm drive trim saw and the 310 production laminate router are real winners but their price points - even heavily discounted - are still high. I have both machines, use them all the time and find nothing else competitive with them.
Yeah they are plenty strong for tables. I assume you are going to be using them to attach aprons to the legs. You might want to do a double mortise and tenon, but they will be plenty strong. All that long grain to long grain glue surface. I just watched the wood whisperer the other day build a table using nothing but the domino and he said it cut his build time by a day. So luck.Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
I'm under the impression that folks don't realize this technology and method goes back to the 50's in Europe with the slot mortiser and loose tenons, basically a stationary machine. We made our own tenon stock. The Festool is just the latest portable development on an old thing. The tenons are smaller so double up on them. It's fine for chairs, couches, beds, dining room tables, hutches. I'll stick with my stationary mortiser which I've been using for 25 years. All the shops in my area have been using the loose tenons for as long as I can remember. Sliding table saws, slot mortisers, stroke sanders, widebelts, sliding tilt shapers, European hardware and what ever works.
Edited 3/29/2007 8:57 am ET by RickL
Rick,Any opinions on whether or not Grizzly's new slot mortiser is likely to be any good?http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0540At $450, this is a dramatically cheaper price than most of these machines.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Actually a couple of years old at this point. You could have bought it for $330 incluiding shipping over a year ago.
http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/reviews/articles_729.shtml
I've talked to several folks who are using it as a slot mortiser with good luck and I've heard from a couple of "nattering nabobs of negativity" on it. For the money you can't even come close to using the slot mortiser table from a combo machine and adding your own motor or router. Robland/Laguna sells the combo mortiser for around $600 and it come with a real mortise chuck you copuld put on a jackshaft and pillow blocks. I've been advocating all kinds of alternatives for slot mortisers for years buyt no one seem to be listening.
I thought the Grizzly machine was brand new; I read the WC review you linked, and I would say his comments were luke warm at best. I also looked at the Laguna site, and the only mortisers or boring machines I saw started at about $3000 and went up from there. I'm gussing the $600 mortiser you referred to was an add on for one of their combo machines, and you are suggesting it could be made to function on its own. Right?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
The Robland/Laguna is the slot mortiser from the combo machine. Years ago they listed it seperately but not anymore.
Robland moertiser with a router but you get the mortise chuck with it so you can set it up with an induction motor at a speed more typical of a slot mortiser. Makes it nice to dowel with or various horizontal boring operations. I think there stand design could be made much better, even if you used wood. You could also buy the mortiser seperate from Minimax. No idea on the cost of that but it's got to reasonable compared to stand alone mortisers. From the description of the Grizzly I would say it's not too far from the quality of the Rojek of which I have access to at a local school where I maintain the machines. The Rojek is over $1600.
I ordered a MiniMax combo J/P 2 weeks ago. When added to the base machine the slot mortiser and Westcott chuck was $875. A 1/4" x 4" x 2" bit was $30.Frosty
That's not too bad a price for the mortiser. I'm assuming the bit is birdsmouth mortising bit. I prefer the HSS 2 flute endmills myself.
https://www.onsrud.com/xpost Best source for mortise bits is Onsrud. Put "mortise" in the search box. Try the endmills though. HSS lasts a long time.
Edited 3/30/2007 1:36 pm ET by RickL
What is a 'birdsmouth' bit. That's a new term for me. I've been using a carbide up-spiral bit in my router. Unfortunately I just finished a new mortise jig for a plunge router, which should be pretty versatile. Then I saw the FWW story on combos and went the whole way with the mortiser.Frosty
Birdsmouth bit is a term loosely used to describe an oscillating mortise bit for a slot mortiser. Meant to run at 3,000 to 5,000 rpm and all the ones I've seen are reversible. Most slot mortisers can run forward or reverse. I've only heard a few folks on the web use the term birdsmouth and even less with the term oscillating mortise bit.
Edited 4/1/2007 8:34 am ET by RickL
They also make birdsmouth bits for routers, it is the traditional joint for making sailboat masts.------------------------------------
"The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do."---------------Samuel P. Huntington
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=45160&cat=1,46168,46176&ap=1
The birdsmouth joint has nothing in common with the birdsmouth bit I was referring to so I'm assuming the definition I'm using is incorrect. The bit I'm referring to is an oscillating mortise bit.
http://www.morriswoodtool.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=MWT&Product_Code=46004HS
I've seen folks refer to it as a birdsmouth bit but suspect they are wrong..Saw one forum where they called bookmatched veneer butterfly matched.
Hi Rick. Do you know of any place that sells a good mortise chuck assy. I have a homemade slot mortiser that is router based but would like to convert it to a lower speed unit with a chuck arrangement.
Some of the bits shown are called oscillating. Do some of these mortisers oscillate as well? I use a lot of loose tenon joinery but I think the router speeds I am using are too high and I could get better results with a slower speed setup.
Thanks, Tom
You should be able to get one from Laguna/Robland, Minimax or anyone that sells mortisers. Probably around $100 or possibly more. You don't need to necessarily go that route. A threaded Jacobs chuck will work fine. My mortiser is a converted handmill with a used 3/4" capacity Jacobs chuck and it's fine. http://www.mcmaster.com http://www.wttool.com This and
http://www.use-enco.com are good to have for info. http://www.surpluscenter.com is a great source.
http://www.bearingbrokersinc.com for bearings and pillow blocks
The HSS 2 flute endmills last a long time and are cheap to resharpen. You could also put a step pulley on the shaft to increase the range of drilling uses.
I prefer the endmills over the Oscillating mortise bits. More sizes to choose from and I just find the endmills to work better. The more expensive industrial slot mortisers do oscillate back and forth automatically.
Rick,Are you saying that the Robland mortiser pictured in your attachment is still available (from Laguna???) A friend has this model, and I understand that it's from the combo machine, but they no longer push it on their website -- that I can find. Is this a call customer service and ask kind of thing, or is it discontinued? Thanks.Mike
As far as I know it's still available from Laguna. I've called to double check the price and availability about 9 months ago and saids they should list it back on the website so this just shows it's more about profit than providing an inexpensive substitute for the more expensive standalones.
Anyone that makes a combo is fair game to use their mortise table. I know that the Minimax mortiser can be bought seperately and they all come with the Westcott mortise chuck as folks often decide to add the mortiser later. I recall the Minimax was around $850. I'll bet Hammer and Felder are available as well.
Rick,Thanks for the information. I'll give them a call. Mike
I'd call Minimax, Hammer/Felder as well. I'm getting pretty much discouraged at Laguna and their attitude. They used to feature it on their website. Seems many companies give folks what they think they want instead of what they really need. Vega and someone else used to make a $500 slot mortiser using a router and x, y table but they were too far ahead of the Ameican market and slowly faded away. Hard to beleive the slot mortiser is around 60 years old. Lots of the hobby woodworkers think the chisel mortiser in only a few years old and it goes back to the latter 1800's.
Edited 4/2/2007 1:07 pm ET by RickL
Thanks. I'll give them a try. I was sold on the concept by a friend who's been doing loose tenon for quite a while. Based on your location and your mention of maintaining machinery for the school, you probably know him -- he taught the Summer course I attended three years ago and still does an occasional weekend course. Thanks again for the information.Mike
A few days ago you wrote "Hard to beleive the slot mortiser is around 60 years old." Actually it may be a bit older than that and in some cases it was combined with the "new" Domino oscillating shaft principal too!After my father finished his apprenticeship to a wagon maker in Denmark he worked in furniture factories during and after WWII. Years ago we were talking about the machines and methods used then and he said that "long hole boring machines" were commonplace (an apt description of loose tenons). There were also some that had shafts that oscillated back and forth, pivoting at the back, and could be adjusted at the front to have no sweep (dowel hole), to cutting a slot several inches wide. The wood only had to be feed in and out with one hand on a lever while the other worked a clamp which kept the wood on the table. Those machines were not new at that time. The Domino isn't a new revolutionary tool. It's a evolutionary one made portable.
"The Domino isn't a new revolutionary tool. It's a evolutionary one made portable."
My thoughts exactly! I'm still amazed at how the slot mortiser never caught on. I first read about it in FWW 25 years ago and found it revolutionary and could immediately see the potential but it took the marketing folks at Festool to make it bigger than it actually was.
I have found some possible references to Ruhlman furniture and the slot mortiser so it may go back to the 20's or more.
Kaleo
It's good to be able to ask someone who's actually been using a tool, rather than theorizing about it's use. Do you feel that the domino is producing the same type of floating tenon joint (mortice only on both pieces) that a router would produce. I have been using a router to mass produce mortices for years, creating a jig to hold the work piece, and stops for repeatability. What does the domino do for you that this method wouldn't?
Also, have you been able to produce the floating tenons out of your own stock, or do you have to use their tenons? I look forward to your insight on this.
Jeff
JeffHeath,
What is supposed to make the Domino better is the speed at which you can set various widths and depths of mortises, and how clean the mortises are. Also, the ability to cut the mortises at various angles and in different stock thicknesses.You can buy the Festool Dominoes, or get the sizes and make your own. The Dominoes are made of hardwood. From what I understand, the cost of 1,000 pre-made dominoes will be pretty reasonable, and they come in a carrying case).
Like most of Festool tools you have to use there products. I have not tried to produce my own. But I think for me that would defeat the purpose of the tool. And that is speed. You can do the same thing with your jigs, I don't really see a hugh difference between the two. The tenon used with the domino is rigged not flat like the ones that you make yourself.Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
Steve,
It sounds like a cross between a biscuit joiner and a router. Maybe I'm wrong but, why not just adapt a small plunge router for this purpose? You buy the loose tenons from them also? Why not make them yourself to fit the specific operation? Personally, I can't imagine making enough loose tenons to justify the purchase when more than likely I already have tools to do the same job. Even for a shop that makes a lot of commercial cabinetry using face frames I doubt the time spent on that joinery would pay off.
Maybe a can of worms here, just my opinion.
-Paul
Your thoughts make a lot of sense. The machine seems to operate just like a biscuit joiner but of course it cuts a different size and shaped hole. I could certainly see how a wood working professional could justify the cost because making a mortise can be somewhat time consuming, and this machine makes the process extra quick. As a wood working hobbyist I just can’t justify spending nearly $1000 for a hand-tool and starter kit, but don’t take what I say incorrectly. There has been a time or two when I got excited about a new tool and spent more than I probably should have. In my mind this tool makes so much sense that I suspect in time other companies will come out with their versions at probably half the price or less. I do realize that quality costs money, but sometimes the simplicity of a devise does not require extra quality. For example last year I bought the cheapest biscuit joiner on the market and my friend was upset because it works just as well as his machine, and he paid nearly 3 times as much.
For those interested in seeing more of the Domino, McFeely's has 11 demonstration videos on their Web site.
Here's the link:
http://www.mcfeelys.com/festool/domino.asp?id=1814313
Edited 1/16/2007 11:16 am ET by MatthewSchenker
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