Was looking at the new TS plunge saws from Festool. I guess their smaller model is just out with the larger blade model to come in 2006. The TS 55 (the recent addition) comes with a 55″ guide which takes care of the 48″ cut for plywood but , if I understand correctly , the 8’+ guide is a $192 option. Am I missing something, but the real value in these saws seems to me to be able to cut sheet goods and by the time I add the larger guide I have almost $600 in the smaller saw (saw with 55″guide is $395) and almost $750 in the larger one(saw is $550 with 55″ guide) to be out in 2006. These saws look very good but since I have a regular table saw, I only need them for sheet goods; however, the price seems almost prohibitive for this narrow purpose.
Could some of you Festool saw owners (or others) weigh in on this for me? I have the Festool sander with dust collection and I am a great believer in their quality for the price but when I can buy (or make) a guide for $100 and use my existing portable saw, I puzzle why I should jump on this new product. Can anybody help?
Replies
I don't know if I can help, but I know a little bit about Festool.
For years I used a CS with a shooting board to break down sheets of plywood -- one for 8' rips, and another (50") for cross cuts. I thought it was a great system -- rough cut with the shooting board, then run the pieces through the TS to final dimensions.
I thought this fancy Festool saw guide system was for doctors and lawyers who dabbled in wwing, and had too much money in their pocket, and a BMW in the driveway.
Then, this past fall we're building an elaborate porch, and the guy I am working with shows up with the Festool (old model ATF 55). So I got to work with it for a month. Used it for MDO soffit boards, etc. but it was especially useful for cutting the cladding for the porch posts -- cut at 45 degrees, all 8' long. The saw produced an absolutely glass smooth, accurate cut. I'm sorry now we didn't build a taper into the posts, which would have been easy with this machine. Also, you really don't have to clamp the guide rail down to use it -- which for me is a real convenience.
We were working outside, so dust collection wasn't an issue, but the Festool CS is really the only saw on the market that is meticulously designed with dc in mind -- if that's important to you. I think you could probably set this thing up in your living room and not have to wipe everything down with a dust cloth afterwards. But if you have one of their sanders, you already know that.
For the past 5 or 10 years, I think most of the tool mfgrs have been locked in a race to cut pennies from their production budget -- in order to get on the shelves of Home Depot. As a result, there has been, I think, a general diminution of quality.
Being the good Germans they are, I think Festool understood there was an unfilled niche at the very top end of the tool market for stuff that was thoughtfully designed, built to the highest standards, and backed up with really superb customer service. And it was their gamble that at least some of us would pay absolutely top dollar for all this.
And they were right. I am neither a doctor or a lawyer, just a poor working stiff, but I bought their saber saw about six months ago, and just yesterday, I plunked down about $650 for the TS-55 saw set-up. Now I have my eye on one of those Rotex sanders.
BTW, as you know the saw comes with a 55" guide, and I bought an additional 55" guide (for some $70), which can be joined to the first guide to rip 8' ply. And it is easier to carry around than the longer guide, and it works very well.
Finally, do you know about the EZ Smart Guide? It is a similar system, but you provide your own right hand circular saw, and it is dramatically cheaper (somewhere between $2-300, I think). There are many over at Breaktime who sing its praises and claim the resulting cut is at the same level as Festool. But I have not had the chance to either see or try it.
http://www.eurekazone.org/
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Thanks so much for the info; since you have worked with the old model and bought the new, you must have been impressed. I was glad to hear your comment about just getting the extension guide rather than buying the longer one. I looked at the EZ Smart and that is about $189 for a 100" system; that means you pay about $450 for the Festool saw. I really like the sander and, like you, feel the quality is certainly"top of the line". I was considering waiting (probably procrastinating) until the bigger saw comes out but the TS55 will do everything with sheet goods, which is all I need you need. Was that the reason you went for the TS55?
Thanks again for some very helpful info.
I bought the TS 55 because: 1) it is available now, 2) it is lighter than the bigger saw, which will not be along until sometime in 2006, and 3) it has the capacity to cut 99% of what passes through my woodworking life. I would think the main reason to buy the bigger saw is if you are working with a lot of doors. However, on the guide rail, the TS 55 will cut 1 15/16" straight down, which will handle most doors. And if you need it for a thicker door, or cutting at an angle, you can use the guide rail as a straight edge, and run the saw on the door itself. Mostly, I intend to use it for sheet goods, hoping that it will allow me to cut cabinet parts to exact size, saving the extra step of running everything through the TS.This next week I will start to mill up stock for all the casing material in a 3 story house, and I am hoping to do most of it on site. I have a lot of 4/4 X 6 stock that must be ripped, and I am hopeful the Festool will be able to do it, and I will get a good enough edge that I won't need a jointer. We'll see............********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I discovered the Easy Smart System about 4 months ago and have just been thrilled with its perfromance. It is designed so that it could totally replace a table saw but do a lot of other functions.
Someone said that the EZ smart was cheaper than Festool. The price may be a little less but the quality is (in my opinion) even better than Festool.
Right now I am working on a system using the easy smart router system to process end panels for kitchen cabinets. When its complete, I'll be able to lay a piece of plywood on a table and quickly add 2 dado's for shelves and a rabbit for the back.
The router system has the ability to move on a x-y axis. This opens a new world of routing. Dino has even hooked up a hand held planer so that it can function like a jointer.
Here is a list of some of the benefits of the system.
1. Universal. for all right bladed saws, all routers, some planers,
2. Anti chip on and off the guide rails and on both sides of the blade.
3. Self aligning connection. No need to transport or buy long rails.
4. Bidirectional. No need to move the guide or the wood.
5. Longer reach and easy to control circular saw
5. Narrow clamping with the supplied smart clamps 3/4" (they rotate)
down to 1/16" with the smart clamping system.
6. Repeatability on both sides of the guide and both sides of the blade.
7. Easy to slide on and off anti chip edges and inserts.( no tools required)
8. Smart clamps that stay on the guide rail (spring loaded)
9. Dual clamping tracks that you can use 4 smart clamps for warp and crooked wood.(With the strong guide rails) and at the same time eliminates the need for a table.
10.Dove tail tracks for easy slide the guide control unit/smart clamping system/repeaters.
11.Dove tail track on the top for router and CS limit stops.
12. Router system with X-Y (sliding arm) eliminates the measurements and gives you 18" of routing area without the resetting of the guide rail.
13. Same router kit can be used for the planer and with an extra base for Drill.
14. Same router kit can be used as a circle maker.
Same router kit can be used as a duplicator.
15. Smart table kit to fit in your car and support a 4 x 8 panel.
Same kit can be used for Finishing and pocket holes. 100% access for clamping.
16. The lowest price entry system in the market,
With $25.00 you can buy the smart base and use your straight edge.
You can have better cuts than the most expensive system.
17. Dual tracks on the smart base for bevel and straight cuts.
The antichip insert AC-2 helps the stability and the dust collection.
18. You don’t need table saw or jointer .
19. Designed from the get go to comply 100% with the Dead Wood Concept. Total control for all the cuts.
20.This is only a partial list of the EZ Smart. The system was designed with an open mind and not to be limited by work space or tied to special tables.
The open mind and open tracks design allows the user to make any modifications EZ.
21. Turn the ez sideways and you have another routing center for mortise, tenon, and whatever you can think or imagine.
Edited 12/4/2005 10:04 am ET by Burts
I think one of the real advantages of the EZ system is that you can rig to use a portable planer. Can't do that with Festool.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Actually, the Smart Router kit was designed to carry almost any tool you can think of. The ability to abapt a tool to do exactly what I want is very important to me. I've even made a square for cross cuts using the EZ guide rail. The possibilities are endless.
Burts,
Thanks for the additional info on the EZ Router system. I looked on their site and do I understand correctly if I buy the saw guide system for $189 then I have to buy the router system for another $259? Seems like you could use the guides from the saw and just add the additional stuff for the router and it shouldn't cost another $259. Am I missing something here? Thanks for your info.
For routing you only need the SRK.
Same guide rails.
You can see all the products and systems here:
http://www.eurekazone.com/products/index.html
The router systems are for those who don't need to use a saw.
View Image
Thanks David. My question was are they separate systems so that if you want the saw system do you have to buy that at $189 in addition to the router system at $259?
You only need the SGS and the router kit.
The rails are the same.
Try here for a better price. $159.00
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7569449846&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&rd=1
If you call eurekazone and order the router, they combine shipping and discount the second item the same time.
Good lluck.
The same SRK can be use for edge jointing boards.
Same guide and same SRK.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/the-ez-smart-edge-jointer
View Image
Edited 12/4/2005 12:31 pm ET by davidwood
With the EZ, I assume you can use any portable planer, right?In your pic (with the portable planer), is that the same part one would use with a router, assuming there is some kind of base you would need to attach to hold the router?I have always found Dino's web site to be rather confusing, which is why I ask the question.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I don't think the EZ Smart and the Festool are necessarily incompatible with one another, and I can see where it might be advantageous to have both; I could envision keeping the Festool saw, and still have the EZ for routing and the portable planer. I think their (EZ ) fold up work table makes a lot of sense, and Dino tells me the Festool saw would work great with the EZ guide rails.In the past most of my work has been shop-based, but I seem to be doing more and more stuff on site. Which is why I can see the possiblity of owning elements of both systems.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I don't think the EZ Smart and the Festool are necessarily incompatible with one another, and I can see where it might be advantageous to have both; I could envision keeping the Festool saw, and still have the EZ for routing and the portable planer. I think their (EZ ) fold up work table makes a lot of sense, and Dino tells me the Festool saw would work great with the EZ guide rails.
I think, Dino is after the dangerous tools. You can see the Festool tools on Dino's site. He must like them.
This is very interesting.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/Universal-EZ-Smart
The last picture shows the Festool rails with the festool saw
and the ez smart (universal ) Repeater.
Nikiwood. I don't think you need a table saw anymore in the job site.
david
<<"Nikiwood. I don't think you need a table saw anymore in the job site.">>That's what I'm hoping................. but I am not yet ready to toss it out of the inventory.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
NIkki
I just recently bought the EZ and after talking to Dino and hearing him say that I wont need the table saw anymore, it still leaves me thinking that I better hang on to it for a while yet!
My concern is that I do a lot of kitchen cabs and dado work still seams to be more efficient with a table saw, I'll have to rethink all my habits, which isnt all that EZ for someone my age!
Doug
Doug,
I agree that is a lot like the old saying - you can't teach an old dog new tricks but after having the ez smart for a while, I'm beginning to see the day when a table saw will either be eliminated or reduced to "seldom used" status. I have a horizontal panel saw. Recently, I let it sit and cross cut an entire kitchen with the easy Smart Square that I made. Time was close to the same and I felt a lot better when it was over. It is easier to position a square than it is to position half a sheet of plywood.
From now on, my truck won't leave the shop without and easy smart on it.
For in shop, the easy smart opens a whole new world. It is the easiest way I have seen to straightline rip boards. I've even set up a 10 1/4" saw so I can rip 8 quarter plus stock.
Burts
Whats your normal saw of choice?
I have a milwaukee CS that I started with back in 1974, and I bought it used then, still works great but I'm afraid that it isnt going to do some miters or thick wood.
Dino suggested the PC because of there break so I'm giving that some thought but might have to give some consideration to the Bosch 8.25 or the Milwaukee 10.25.
Doug
The bases are only about $25 and as soon as my Makita 6 1/2 arrives, I'll have 5 saws setup for the system. For ever day use, I consider the 10 1/4" units to just be to heavy. The 8 1/4" bosch might be a good compromise.
As for my saw of choice, I'm switching between the PC and a makita. I'm not sure which will win.
Edited 12/4/2005 7:09 pm ET by Burts
Just seen this post, the new system aint all its cracked up to be. I do a "any new message" but you have to do it in all the different sections.
Dino suggested the PC because of the break on it and that makes sense, does the Makita have a break?
I bought the whole works, what ever that means!!!
Yea, I dont think I'd want the 10 1/4" to use daily!
Thanks
Doug
Re: EZ systemYou say you bought the whole works -- how much did it set you back? Would that have included the repeater hardware and the router gismo? How about the table?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I think, because its not here yet, that I got the 100" guide, I believe that's 2 50"ers and an additional 25" guide, that allows me to do a 12' piece.
I got the table and the router deal, don't know what the repeater thing is so I don't know if I got it.
The only thing that Dino mentioned that I could possibly get but didn't was some more clamps.
That cost me $380? give or take a $5 spot, I cant remember and I didn't right anything down.
There was an auction over at Quitin Time and Dino donated one for the cause, I think he's giving a deal for anybody that was on breaktime and inquiring about them.
Give him a call and see what deal he has. Be prepared, his accent is thick and me being about half deaf it was a struggle to understand half of what was being said!
I assume mine will be here sometimes this week.
Doug
Nikki, do you know whether the EZ router system would fit on the Festool Guide Rail? If like you, one was to buy the Festool saw with accompanying guides then you could just add the EZ Router Kit. Probably not compatible; that would be too easy. :)
The 100" saw system is $189. That is 2 - 50" rails, clamps, and a saw base. Then add the router kit - The basic router kit is $125 on the Eureka zone site - it is only the parts dedicated to the router. You might want to check Hartville tool. Their pricing is a little better.
I did buy both full kits because of some things that I had in mind. That gave me 4 - 50" Rails,
Actually the best buy is the "Freedom package" That includes 100" rails, smart base for saw, router kit, table top kit, circle maker, etc for $369. If I had know then what I know now I would have bought that first.
I bought the the 55 with the vac and a 106" guide. The 106 means you can cut any angle on a 4x8 sheet and the guide will reach. I bought the tool for my shop, but I have been bringing to remodeling jobs way too much. Door casings from 4 3/16" to 4 1/2", any trim boards that taper at all the tool is perfect for. I've since added the jig saw, rotex 150 sander, and the 1400 router. Amazing tools almost worth every penny. In fact if the price was 20-30 % less, they would start putting other companies out of business.
Thanks! I have been looking at that router having enjoyed the sander but then this saw came out and I started looking at it. Gosh, you could spend a fortune with those guys. I really like what they do and agree if it was any less expensive they would walk away with the market; of course, they probably couldn't afford cost-wise to develope the features and quality at current"market" prices.
Thanks to Nikki and all you others for jumping in on this thread; I really learned a lot about a product (EZ Smart) I knew nothing about and I started out asking about Festool. Now I really have to do some thinking. Thanks again.
Its your lucky day! EZ and Festool will interchange.
Edited 12/5/2005 5:36 pm ET by Burts
Edited 12/5/2005 5:37 pm ET by Burts
Does that mean you have to use the EZ mounting plate on the Festool saw, for instance?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
If you have the EZ Rails, You need to use the smart base on the Festool Saw. If you have the festool you can use the universal repeaters, the universal smart router kit, the univesal smart clamps, etc. From what we know so far, all ez smart stuff would work with any other system and all Festool tools can work with the ez smart.
Thanks Burts! Seems Nikki can just add the EZ Router Kit since he will already have the Festool rails that you get with the saw. "From what we know so far.....", does that mean we know or we don't know? :) Nikki, why don't you get the Festool saw and the kit , then let me know if it works and , if so, Iwill jump. :)
The people at EZ Smart have tried the two systems together and to date there have been no problems. They don't forsee any problems but are being cautious about saying they are 100% compatible.
Thanks, now all I have to do is persuade Nikki to get the EZ Router kit with his new Festool saw, use it for awhile and I go risk free. :)
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