I’ve been reading the various posts about saw guides. It looks like there are three contenders; EZ Smart Guide, Festool and a third, Penn State Industries. As you know, two are sold on Ebay. I’ve seen the EZ for $160 and the Festool for $400. Once you add a quality saw to the EZ, you’re looking at more like $310. I saw a couple of people, including ForestGirl in the prior discussions. What did you end up buying?
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Replies
I've actually just recently decided to "take the plunge" (sorry), and get the Festool plunge saw. My decision to do so, over the smartguide, was that the Festool system seems better to me. The ability to plunge cut accurately, and repeatably, in the middle of a panel and be dead-on accurate was the deciding factor for me. Having the plunge saw designed specifically for the guide system is also excellent, with no adjustments to some other companies circular saw. I have several circular saws, for different purposes, so I don't need another that can perform multiple functions. I just want this system to process sheet goods accurately, with no (or little, realistically) tear out. Now, alls I need to hear about is where to get a deal on the Festool plunge saw with a 100+" guide rail to process 4x8 sheets. If anybody knows of any specials out there, I'd appreciate knowing about them. I plan to buy this week. I'm starting a large job this week that involves 15 sheets of A grade cherry plywood, so HELP!!!!
Jeff
Jeff,AFAIK Festool stuff costs the same everywhere.I'd recommend getting the TS55 EQ package, which includes a 55" guide. You can add another 55" rail with some extensions. The 55" guides are more practical for cutting along the 4" width, and it takes about 15 seconds to join/unjoin two guide sections. I just got my TS55EQ and extra 55" guide on Friday.
thanks for the info.
Dino (the inventor of the EZ Smart Guide) has enjoyed quite a lot of positive feedback from users over at Breaktime; some users decided to use the Festool plunge saw with the EZ Smart Guide system and say they are very happy with the results.-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Jazzdog
I'm not being a wise guy here, I'm genuinely asking. Why would someone want the ez smart guide with the festool plunge saw, when the saw COMES WITH the festool guide. I can't seem to figure out what the difference is between the two, other than with the festool, everything is from the same company, and pretty much guaranteed to be compatible without needing adaptors for saws, etc.....
I really don't mind spending a few extra bucks, as long as I know that what I'm getting is going to do exactly what I want it to do, which is process sheet goods. That is it! Period! I'm not going to sell my jointer, planer, tablesaw, bandsaw, etc..... and convert to a Festool shop. This is just going to be for processing panels.
In your opinion, am I thinking correctly? Thanks for your help.
Jeff
Repeatability?.
David.
Hi Jeff,
When I read posts from folks who were using a Festool saw with the EZ Smart guide I guess I figured they'd been able to obtain the saw by itself; I wasn't aware buyers of Festool's saw automatically got the guide rail system.
To me, the entire "debate" comes down to a relatively simple, albeit benignly controversial, question: what's a fast, easy, affordable, and accurate way to cut sheet goods without getting a hernia or putting up with sloppy cuts if you haven't the space and/or money for a pro-quality panel saw or are working in the field?
Like you, I'm not interested in investing time, money, or brain cells in an integrated "system" in order to accomplish such a limited goal.
Sawdust in your shoes,-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
I might chime in here and say that the Festool vs. EZ debate is a road much traveled, and only the brave and foolish tread it more than once.Jeff, for what it's worth, I purchased the Festool mostly for the same reason you mention--to process sheet goods without breaking my back (again) trying to wrestle them onto a tablesaw. Some people buy the EZ for the same purpose. Festool owners, EZ owners, and people who own neither seem to argue at great length at which is better and how much money one can spend or avoid spending in purchasing or not purchasing either system.Bottom line: both systems work, as do table saws. Best thing to do is to read the many debates, try them both and buy whichever you like best.
etherfarmer and Jazzdog
You both hit the nail on the head. I did. I am ready to order saw, CT33, guide kit, and extra 55" guide. Did you get the vac. system with it. If so, how soon will I need extra filters for CT33, and do I need any of the other crap that might not come with it. (wet vac filters, etc...). I plan on placing the order as soon as I figure out the accessories that I need. How long did it take for you to get yours?
I've got an assembly table in my shop that would be a perfect table for cutting sheets of plywood. In your opinion, should I use 3/4" mdf under sheets to be cut, or would 1" polystyrene be better? I'm only concerned about bottom chip out, and saw blade life. I have easy access to either.
Thanks,
Jeff
Edited 1/3/2006 12:32 am ET by JeffHeath
Edited 1/3/2006 12:35 am ET by JeffHeath
Jeff,I almost bought the vac but decided to get it when I get the fancy-schmancy sander. I'm just now building out a new shop (read: co-opted garage space), so all my dust is presently construction dust, for which I think my present shop vac is more well suited. When I start sanding real furniture with the VS Rotex, the CT22 is probably what I'll go for. I'm really impressed with the saw.Shipping takes 2-3 days for most locations.I'd recommend MDF. Since you can adjust the depth of the plunge really easily, you don't have to do 3/4" MDF if you don't want to.
I went thru this same thing (EZ vs. Festool) recently, and ended up buying the Festool.What do you need? Be sure to get the two connector rods to join the tracks. You should aslo get the plastic "thingy" (can't remember what its called) that attaches to the end of the track, and keeps your cord and vac hose from getting snagged. I bought a 27mm 11' vac hose, which works just fine, but I subsequently learned that the somewhat larger 36mm would be better. Ask your supplier. BTW, do you know about Bob Marino? -- He's probably the most helpful and knowledgeable Festool distributor, from what I've heard. Clamps? I bought two, but have never used them. The anti slip tape on the bottom of the tracks really makes them unnecessary (which is a great convenience when cutting sheet goods). The supplied blade is something like 42 or 48 tooth, which works well -- except if you have to cut anything at an angle. Then you will want their 28 tooth blade. Compared with everything else, the blades are reasonably priced. Also, there has been some controversy about the new saw (TS 55EQ), and the strange noises that emanate from some of the models. Festool denies any problem, but I would suggest you send it back if you're not satisfied with the way it sounds. I bought mine at a place that stocks them, and the first one they brought out sounded odd to me when we turned it on, but the second was okay. I did not buy their vacuum, mainly because 1) I did not need another vac, and 2) you must buy their disposable bags to make it work right. I have been using an old Milwaukee vac, and it works fine, except that you don't have the tool activation feature.If you have a good support structure to cut on, a piece of insulation works well to cut into -- a trick I learned from the Festool Users Group (Yahoo). Finally, I don't think the EZ and Festool systems are necessarily incompatible with one another. I'm thinking about buying the former, and getting it set up for a router and portable planer. With Festool, you have to use their routers, and I already have too many routers.Overall, I think you will be pleased with the system -- nice smooh cuts with no splintering. Whether or not you can get cabinet parts straight from this saw is a function of how well you measure, and the accurate placement of the track. It is certainly more variable than setting up your TS fence, and running each part through so they will be exactly the same.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Thanks for your input. I was hoping to hear from some Festool users who have practical experience using the system.
Jeff
The ez smart is more than a straight edge for braking down sheet goods.
I use the ez smart for dimensional-precision cutting of plastics, solid woods, aluminum and sheet goods.
Something that no other system or tool offers.
The speed,safety,ease,versatility,precision and repeatability of the ez smart is to be debated ? with the limited intended purpose of cutting sheet goods and without the use of the Repeaters?.
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David.
davidwood
I'm curious. Are you financially affiliated with EZ smartguide. Not a knock, just curious because the pics you're posting here are the ones I found on the eurekazone website. It would help me to know if you're just a happy user, or part of the company, related, etc..... in some way.
Jeff
View ImageView Image
David.
Thanks for answering my question
Dino used to jump in to these threads, but I think the Taunton censors put the cabosh on him. You've got to remember Dino is like this little "David" from New Jersey fighting the big German "Goliath". So there are lots of us who are pulling for him, and frankly, I have never heard a single complaint from anyone who has bought his system. Earlier, I said I don't think the two systems are necessarily incompatible. I would have bought the EZ system first, but I don't have a decent right blade CS and would have to buy one, and Dino's web site does not make ordering a system "EZ" -- since for me, at least, it is pretty confusing to figure out all the various parts I would need to get the system I need. I will end up with the EZ because I think it is more versatile than the Festool system, IMHO. And it will do things the Festool won't. But if dust collection is important to you, then I think the Festool system is superior -- since every tool they sell has been designed with that in mind. I think a many pros are buying Festool because they do a lot of on-site work and don't want to spew dust from here to October. There is also the snob factor: it impresses the bejesus out of clients who do their cutting with a $40 Skil saw, or sand their boards with a $30 Ryobi.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
My main reason for like Festool over the EZ is exactly what you stated. I don't want to have to go searching for the right saw, the right blade, etc.... to work with their guide. With Festool, it seems to be one stop shopping, and I like that. The plunge saw factor is also big for me, cause I do alot of those types of cuts in the middle of panels. Up until now, I've had to mark the fence, and raise and lower the saw blade, blah, blah, blah, ....... you know the drill.
I've been self employed most of my adult life, so I'm all for a guy who's trying to carve out his niche in the world, but at this point, I'm also at a point where one stop shopping and guaranteed compatibility are more important than saving $80.
I do 99% of my work in the shop, and my installs are usually limited to scribing with a hand plane, but occassionally (stressed!!!) I will need to make an accurate saw cut in the field to remove 1/4" to 1/2" off the side of a frame, etc... I think the Festool is perfect for that. Actually, I think both would be great for it. It's just that Festool seems to want to make it easier for me to buy ALL that I need.
Thanks for your replies, I am definately learning from them.
Jeff
FWIW, Dino says any $10 blade will do the job with his system. And he claims any right blade saw is fine (including the Festool TS 55), but he recommends the current Porter Cable, which sells for about $130.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Is that the PC 7 1/2" circ saw, or is there some special smaller size that works.
Thanks,
Jeff
I might chime in here and say that the Festool vs. EZ debate is a road much traveled, and only the brave and foolish tread it more than once.
Sorry.
David.
[On soapbox] Jumping in here. . . On this and other forums, in discussing tools, quite a few people sing the praises of whatever it is they bought, as in rationalizing or justifying the decision.But to really help each other, we should try to be brutally honest. I have bought tools that just don't work. I usually find other ways of accomplishing a task when using them. And although I've never owned the EZ guide, I have bought and made a variety of straight edge guides in the past. And they all work -- more or less accurately.But Festool is a whole different animal. It is not that it has good dust collection. It is that the system is thoughtfully engineered and designed. So when you move from one Festool tool to another, you pull the hose off and plug the hose in--no adapters, fittings, etc. Or if you want to change from saw to router or jigsaw, you use the same guide system to get straight cuts. Or if you want to minimize tearout, the Festool saw does it. Or if you only want one power cord on the table for multiple tools. . . you get the point.Some manufacturers build tools that really work -- do what they're supposed to do and do it well. Festool sure does. They have niched themselves at a high price (part of which is the value of the dollar against the euro) and deliver higher quality tools. IMHO, it's worth it. I would do it again in a heartbeat. I feel the same way about squares that are really square, and precision jigs (Incra, Leigh) that are dependably precise.[off soapbox]
First of all some people get light headed from heights and I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that is what happened to you. I think it might be a good idea to stay off soap boxes.
As for the Festool Rails you love so much, they are inferior to the EZ rails. Wood magazine measured the EZ Rails with a deflection of less than .002 of an inch. Check out the Dec 12 post on FOG reference the Festool Rails. A highly respected person from the festool world states that the sticky tape on the back of the rails can cause the rails to have a lateral bow and even suggests that it might be a good idea to have some dust on the wood so the rail will lay straight.
If you still have one of the cd’s on the ATF from Festool take a look at it and notice the big puff of dust at the end of the cut.
As for minimizing tear out, the EZ System has always had anti-chip protection on both sides of the cut. Festool only achieved that with their new saw. In fact, I’ve read posts from people who were just thrilled that they no longer have to cut twice so they can get rid of the tear out.
As for my opinion, Festool has some nice tools but they are over priced and often do not perform up to expectations. Check out the forums.
Edited 1/13/2006 12:06 pm ET by Burts
Burt,Whether it is to congratulate yourself on the tool choice or for some other reason, you are closed-minded on the subject. That is fine. I have never used the EZ system or even seen one. I am not looking for another guide system because the Festool one works as advertised, and does a great job. I like the Festool tools because they are well made and the performance meets or exceeds the expectation (all too rare these days). Maybe the EZ guide does so as well. If so, enjoy it.I just get tired (and we have had a related discussion before on another forum) of people who bash the other product without using it. You take one person with a Festool complaint or observation and act as if that person's opinion is proof positive that the system is defective in some way. That is a poor substitute for logic or valid argument.I have nothing bad to say about EZ and I dont think Festool is perfect. I just appreciate what I have because it does the job well and does not disappoint.I also like the "system" side of the equation -- that multiple tools all function in relationship to each other, from dust collection fittings to power cords to the guide rail system. Other things being equal, to me that is preferable to the alternative
I thought you stated very elegantly the exact reason why I recently purchased Festool over EZ. Thank you. Guys like Burts and davidwood actually annoyed me enough with their mini commercials and festool bashing that I went the other way and bought the Festool. It works as described, and I didn't have to drive to three stores to get everything I needed to get it to work. Time, for me, is $$$.
I hope all the ez users like their system as much as I like my festool system.
Jeff
Whether it is to congratulate yourself on the tool choice or for some other reason, you are closed-minded on the subject. That is fine. I have never used the EZ system or even seen one. I am not looking for another guide system because the Festool one works as advertised, and does a great job. I like the Festool tools because they are well made and the performance meets or exceeds the expectation (all too rare these days). Maybe the EZ guide does so as well. If so, enjoy it.
Now let me see if I understand this. Because I like the EZ Smart System, I am closed minded. Because you like the Festool System you are open minded. I own some Festool equipment and you have never used the EZ equipment and I am still closed minded. Explain
I just get tired (and we have had a related discussion before on another forum) of people who bash the other product without using it. You take one person with a Festool complaint or observation and act as if that person's opinion is proof positive that the system is defective in some way. That is a poor substitute for logic or valid argument.
Your comment brings up another thought. This thread is the first one that you have ever posted in on this forum. The last time were having a discussion (I believe it was on Woodnet) it was also the first time you posted on that forum. I find that strange. Makes me wonder if Festool is paying you to frustrate forums or are you just another Festool employee looking for brownie points?
The Gentleman I was referring to (You know him and what his position is in the Festool World) would not address a subject that he didn’t think was a concern to those using Festool products.
I also like the "system" side of the equation -- that multiple tools all function in relationship to each other, from dust collection fittings to power cords to the guide rail system. Other things being equal, to me that is preferable to the alternative
You are always so eager to refer to Festool as "a system" but I have never heard you give EZ Smart any credit for being a "system".
Burt,You know you pulled the same garbage on the other forum -- ridiculous accusations, personal attacks, and a number of people jumped on you for it.I have no affiliation whatsoever with Festool and am only a hobbyist woodworker.Why dont you try a personality transplant (or at least acquiring a personality). If you treat your customers this way, I am amazed you have stayed in business for 15 years.
Try this link. It will give you the kind of info that you asked for.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=24570.57&redirCnt=1
RE: ............"On this and other forums, in discussing tools, quite a few people sing the praises of whatever it is they bought, as in rationalizing or justifying the decision."It's hard for anyone to be completely objective about their buying decisions when it come to tools (or probably anything else). Everyone goes through a process on the way to buying, and when they reach the end of that process (i.e. the purchase), they naturally feel they made the "right" choice. The problem comes when they proceed to make an effort to dragoon everybody else into accepting their choice as the ONLY right choice. That irritates me as much as it does you. But as you gain some experience in reading these tool threads, it becomes easier to spend something like a milisecond on the false prosletyzers, and focus instead on those folks who bring some real weight and insight to their comments. Nonetheless, one of the real benefits of forums such as Knots or Breaktime, is that -- for the first time -- each of us has access to a broad range of opinions from actual users, and we no longer have to rely solely on the sometimes dubious value of magazine tool reviews. Festool buyers are among the worst offenders when it comes to prosletyzing. For the most part, they seem unwilling to engage in dispassionate, objective discussion of the Festool products; it's almost as though any remark less than a rave is taken as a direct insult to Mother Festool.I am still trying to figure out what dynamic is working here (with Festool ownership), even though I have a couple of their tools.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikki, I called the Festool tech today and just bluntly asked him what goes with the "noise" that had been reported. He said that it stems from the speed control that keeps the saw blade turning at a constant speed. He said other saws don't have it, they will slow down when booged down etc. I cited your experience of pulling one out , finding a weird noise, and selecting another that had no noise. He said that in the first 10 hours of use the brushes have not worn in and they will cause the speed control to keep working which would cause the noise. He also said the "noise" goes with the speed control and it was there with the old design saw. He seemed very straight forward and was not trying to sell me something but rather to explain what the noise was. He said if that noise never occurred then the speed control was not working. I felt satisfied regarding the "noise" issue after talking to him.
I also looked at the PC 324 Mag at HD yesterday and it was okay but not nearly as substantial and finished as the Festool. After so much back and forth I think I am going to stick with the Festool and then later if I want to add the EZ System I will just pop for that too. Heck, you can't take it with you. :) Thanks for your comments.
That explanation is what emerged from the discussion of noise at the Festool User group, along with some additional technical information.I never did get a satisfactory answer why two brand new saws would sound differently. Console yourself with the fact that part of that big price is really superb customer service. They have a great track record for sending you a whole new tool if you develop even a minor problem, and they do all this willingly and without an argument.If you do end up with the Festool saw, I would make a little note about the date you spoke to this rep (and his name, if you have it) and what he said. That way, if you do have a problem that can be traced back to this circuitry, you are in a great position to say " look guys, you told me ........... and that's why I bought the saw, etc. "Like I said many posts ago, I have the TS 55 and I am very happy with it. I think you will be too.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Good point about recording the conversation. I really think we are dealing with a superior manufacturer who will "make it right". I still think the EZ System is an appropriate "add-on" because I can use my router without buying a Festool. I could buy a lot of EZ before buying a Festool router. If I were Festool , I would buy up EZ and make it all work together.
I used to think that Festool was over-priced in Australia until I saw the local prices for EZ Smart Guide.
The local distributor is Northwood (http://www.northwoodtools.com.au). Their price for the basic system is AUD 769 (on sale, usually 832).
The major Festool reseller is Ideal Tools (http://www.idealtools.com.au). Their standard price for the basic Festool system, INCLUDING a variable-speed saw, is AUD 834.
For someone starting out in Australia, the Festool system looks far better value, even at its exorbitant margin over US prices.
The whole price part of this seemingly eternal debate has been pretty much disregarded I think...even by the most diehard members of each "team". I'd suggest it's much more relevant to ask yourself which system offers the most features, is the best built, more versatile, and more likely to make virtually every woodworking operation safer, fast, and easier...
I used the Festool... and bought the SmartGuide (now have two systems, the router guide and a SmartTable).
PaulBinCT
That is interesting, Paul ... what could you not do with the Festool that made you buy a Smart Guide? Or, perhaps, what can you do better with the Smart Guide?
The ez smart is the only tool-guide -straight edge -system-shooterbord that can replace the dangerous and outdated tools.
WHY?
Build in repeatability on both sides of the saw blade. No need to measure,clamp and feed the materials to the blades. No kickbacks and no accidents.
View Image View Image View Image View Image
Try to do this on the tablesaw. Or even on the sliding table saw.
The ez smart is all about smart solutions.
Even if you go the other way and buy a Bosch-Metabo-Hilti-Protool , Maffel, and Festool you stil need a tablesaw. And all this companies are in the tablesaw market.
Their guide "systems" are limited and you can do the same with any straight edge.
Except the ez. Do we need 100 posts to see this?
Can we give some credit to the ez for coming up with all this solutions?
Pardon the naive question, but if you have a 4x8 sheet and you wish to make a square cut, and you are unsure the edge is square, how does a Festool ro EZSmart system eliminate the need to measure to ensure you have a square cut? A guide rail gives you a straight cut, but if you need a square cut, how do you create that without measuring?
The EZ repeaters function somewhat like a table saw fence. If you are doing several rips set the repeaters and you don't have to measure. If you are not sure if the board is square, check it out with the new EZ square/fence and correct if necessary.
Edited 1/14/2006 12:22 am ET by Burts
Festool makes a right-angle gauge (cost about $60) that locks into the guide rail and ensures a perfect 90 (or any other angle you wish). Or, you can square the guide to a square of your choice off the reference (just cut) edge.Any of those will give you an exact 90 degree cut..
I admit to being dense about these things so bear with me. Squaring the guide rail to the fence is just not intuitive for me and if you are not using a fence on a table such as the MFT, then I really get lost about making a square cut without measuring. Maybe there is some secret handshake I am missing :))) but using a system such as Festool or EZ would seem to be based on being able to make a square cut to start. I have this new festool system and I am trying to sort out how to do the basics of make a square cut using the table and not using the table. For the table, I put the guide rail on t then try to make the fence parallel to the table edge, then tweak it with the adjustable protractor. Then I try to use the combination square to get the fence 90 degrees to the guide rail. Squaring the guide raid to the fence on the MFT seems awkard to me: the guide rail rests above the fence, so if you are trying to use a carpenters square or a combination square, then the gap between the table and the guide rail means it is hard to have the combination square touch the guide rail and the fence at the same time.So, I must be missing something. Please, tell me the handshake:))))
I'm not sure I'm completely following you. Starting with on the MFT, are you using the right-angle fence that comes with the table? If so, and you set it square, it should stay square. Then you set the front and back stops that hold the guide rail so that the rail is perpendicular to the fence of the right angle gauge.After that, you should be able to get consistently square cuts on the MFT. Does this make sense?Without the table, first let me state the obvious-- the first cut can be done essentially freehand in most cases. It is the second and subsequent cuts that must be square.Square means aligning the guide rail at 90 degrees to the just-cut edge. That can be done with a long square or T square (like the Incra), or with Festool's right angle fixture, which attaches to the guide rail and moves the rail at whatever angle you set to the reference edge (the just cut edge). Although the initial setup is critical, once you get it set it should work until you move the preset positions in either case.If I am not answering your question, please clarify.Also, you might want to bring this up on the Festool users group at groups.yahoo.com.Dave
Hello David,
I will post at tje festool group since I have a few concept and technique questions.
Thanks
John
You're starting to sound like Dino -- a lot of rhetoric without much information.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I think there is one problem with the EZ Smart. When you look at in a picture, hear about it, or even watch someone else use it, it looks to simple to do what people claim it can do.
The 'rhetoric' comes from using the guide and after a while you just take for granted everyone sees and understands. Most people don't.
This is why people look for so long at the EZ before they buy.
This is why some have criticized it for a good long while, then they buy it. The criticism turns to praise, even sometimes rhetoric.
jericho
Jericho,
You couldn't have expressed my feelings better if you had tried. Thank you and yes, I was one of those that thought it was to good to be true. After I started looking at the Ez Smart, I spent over a grand to build a Saw Trax panel saw. Now that is for sale and I am a happy camper with EZ Smart. I keep trying to keep people from making the same mistake I did, some listen, some don't
Burt
I am really not criticizing the EZ system at all. If anything, I have at least a slight case of buyer's remorse for going with the Festool saw rather than the EZ.And I also think you are right that that the EZ system reveals its virtues only after you have either worked with it, or at least seen it in action. And I have done neither. A lot of the stuff on Dino's website is, for me, either confusing or bewildering -- mainly because he and his tribe just don't offer careful, clear, specific explanations of what the system can do, and what equipment you need to do it. I would argue this kind of information is crucial if you expect to sell your product mainly by mail order/on line, etc.The "rhetoric" I was referring to were Burts' statements such as "The ez smart is the only tool-guide -straight edge -system-shooterbord that can replace the dangerous and outdated tools." ................or "The ez smart is all about smart solutions."I have no idea what he's talking about.And finally, by raising all this as an issue, I am hopeful Dino will take this problem to heart as he revises his web site.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
And finally, by raising all this as an issue, I am hopeful Dino will take this problem to heart as he revises his web site.
Hi Nikki.
Thanks for your honest advice. Working on it.
Anything that you don't understand or we can't explain, call me.
732-259-9984.
YCF Dino
Nikkiwood,
I understand what you're saying. The rhetoric thing I understand too. I was just trying to clarify some of my own observations really.
I think Dino has had this concept in his head for a long time and now he lives and breathes it. What he sees as obvious, due to his involvement with the invention, we have to struggle to understand. He sees the full potential for the tool, and we're still just wanting to make a straight, safe cut.
I think there is work being done to the website to help us all understand some of the basic functions better.
I wonder how Henry Ford described his automobile to someone over the phone?....What do you mean there's no horse!
I see Dino gets the same reaction when he tells people they will not need their table saw. ......No, I can't get rid of my TS can I?
It's fun to watch people come full circle.
jericho
Dead wrong. With Festool, there is no need for a tablesaw.Fine to have the discussion, but stick to the facts.
If that is true, why is Festool working on table saws in Europe.
Festool has nothing to compete with the EZ Clamping systems and Repeaters.
Also I noticed that you totally ignored my post #90. I sure would be interested in your comments.
Because there is a market for tablesaws in Europe, just as there is here. I'll check the previous post and respond.
Burts
I have to tell you that it's posts like yours that sent me the other way. You EZ guys are trying WAY TOO HARD to push your system, and you come off (to me) like a cheap knock off trying to prove that it's just as good. RELAX, and quit posting the commercials here. I can't imagine anybody trying to make an intelligent decision about which system to get is going to seriously consider posts like yours that make it sound like you offer Jupiter, and festool is some here today gone tomorrow comet that will explode on impact.
Thanks to quite a few non-combative posts from guys like Nikkiwood and goldenwreckedangle, I decided to get the TS 55, guide, and CT 33 vac. It works great, and does exactly what I thought it would do. By the time I priced out the EZ, a good circ saw, a fein vac, and all the accessories needed to make them work together, the festool was not that much more. I made a phone call, ordered the stuff, and 3 days later, it all showed up. I didn't need to adapt anything to anything, and I was working in an hour.
That being said, I also stated to Nikkiwood that I would probably get the EZ guide later for a routing system. I'm sure it would work great, and I liked the idea of being able to put my extensive router and router bit collection to work using the guide, without having to buy another router.
Anyone who touts .002 deflection in a straight edge guide system is not somebody I'm going to take seriously. Who cares???????? I'm sure the ez guide cuts straight. I now know that so does the festool guide. And, If I used my old plywood jig, I could cut straight with that for the price of, well, FIREWOOD!
In my humble opinion, and I stated this way earlier in this thread, nobody wants to see posts here that are extensions of the EZ guide website. If we want to see the pictures of the 4,634,233 ways that it can be put to superior use making cabinets an furniture, we'll go there.
I don't mean to rip into you, but geez, lighten up a little. There are some guys here that are seriously trying to make the proper decision and spend their hard, hard, hard earned $$$ on a system that is right for their particular situation, and they want to rely on the words of other guys who have used either system, or sometimes both.
I've had my festool saw and vac for 2 WHOLE DAYS! Whoopee! Alls I can say is that I processed 19 sheets of A grade Cherry plywood with NO tearout yesterday faster than I ever have before using my table saw and a circ saw/shopmade guide and rerunning through table saw for crosscuts. I had time to take my lovely wife and daughter to lunch, and when my work day was done, my back wasn't killing me for the first time in a long while.
I'm EXTREMELY confident that you could have done the same with the ez guide and your saw. The only difference is that I was using my system less than an hour after it arrived, and I didn't have to go anywhere else to buy a saw and a vacuum to work with the guide.
Jeff
PS And I will buy the EZ guide for routing, probably very soon.
Edited 1/14/2006 4:49 pm ET by JeffHeath
Jeff,
I just wish that there was some way to get everyone to understand the real diffferences in the two systems. It is obvious that many people don't.
I'm glad that you are happy with your festool purchase. I also own some festool products. Also, I'm sure you will enjoy the Smart Router setup.
I also object to these people like Justacord - Dave - who show up just to mess a thread that was perfectly good until he arrived. It is always strange they show in the middle of the thread and this is their first time ever to post on this forum. In fact I think it was the same situation last time he showed up? Wonder if he could be on the Festool payroll just to disrupt forums?
Burts
Thanks for replying. I hope my last post did not offend you, because that was not my intention.
Woodworking is my passion, and I have a good business, but it is not my main source of income. I own a pretty large volume construction company in the concrete business in the Chicago area. I'm told the owner of EZ is a fella named Dino. I appreciate what Dino is trying to do. His product which he is making and marketing (I assume he is!) is competing with many companies trying to do the same thing.
Festool is one of those companies, and the alter ego of this thread. I have payed attention to the threads here about EZ vs. Festool, as well as over at breaktime, for quite some time, and have noticed how "passionate" these threads become.
I believe that a post by nikkiwood was extremely accurate and heart felt, when he recommended to Dino that he reorganize his website. I'm not tooting my horn here, but really trying to lend some advice to the guys who seem to really care about Dino and his enterprise. 20 years ago, I started my business (concrete specialties) from scratch, with hardly any money. I have worked very hard making it into a very successful business, and have seen many more others fail in their quest than succeed.
If Dino wants to compete and defeat Festool for a large market share, he needs to stop coming off as so disorganized, with everything kind of just thrown together. No insult intended here, just constructive criticism. Pictures and pictures and pictures of all the different uses of the guide that are constantly changing and evolving are very, very confusing to the target consumer who hasn't used any system, and is trying to figure out what he/she really wants and more importantly, NEEDS.
I'll share my purchasing decision experience briefly with you. Festool gave me a cd/dvd (whatever) video of their system, explaining clearly how it can be used, and how all their tools are integrated to fit together. One stop shopping!!! Everything works with everything, and it is all user friendly, with no searching at other sites/stores for anything. And they did it in less than 5 minutes for each tool, and showed it being used in real time.
The EZ smartguide website pretty much confused me. Everytime I "clicked" on a picture, it took me to another entire set of pics, and did it again, and again, and again...... I began to quickly get the feeling that whoever was running it was very new at marketing, and probably in business.....too. Also, there was really no way for me to find out how a certain brand saw would adapt/work with the system, etc....... It left me confused.
If Dino wants to survive against a Co. like Festool, he needs to hire someone with a serious marketing background to reorganize the website, and make the decision making process with full recomendations of what tools (manufacturer) work best with the system, and offer them, or links to them, on the website.
I felt that if I bought the EZ Guide, it might be a week or so before I got everything figured out and purchased the right saw to go with it.
Man, my posts are getting long. Sorry.
Jeff
Jeff,
I really appreciate the attitude displayed by yourself and nikkiwood. You try to look at things objectively.
I understand your concerns with dino's web site and I think someone said he was updating it. Like yourself, I initally had difficulties with the site. Once I understood the system and what he was trying to do with the site, I didn't have a problem with the web site.
There is a major difference in the age of Festool and EZ Smart that influences the development of marketing. Festool is an old established company. It has a minimum of innovation at this point so it is simple to do and maintain an elaborate site. Dino is still in the innovative state with EZ Smart. He has a vision and on the way to his goal oftens makes additions to the EZ Smart Sytem. This makes maintenance of a site more difficult. Also, Dino enjoys sharing prototypes and new techniques. Probably half of his site is devoted to this.
Like yourself, I understand the pressures of starting your own business. I'm hitting the 15 year point with my woodworking business.
Thanks again for your spirit.
Burt
44529.15
I'm told the owner of EZ is a fella named Dino. I appreciate what Dino is trying to do. His product which he is making and marketing (I assume he is!) is competing with many companies trying to do the same thing.
Jeff. The link above was my very first post in breaktime.
Talk to you after you visit this old thread and ask
this guys about Dino and the ez smart.
Trying to do the same thing like other companies?
How do you come up with this?
Do you think all people and companies are the same?
Thanks for your advice.
YCf Dino
Dino
You misunderstood what I was trying to say to Burts. What I was trying to say was "Hey, we are all businessmen trying to create an original idea or product that has a need and a niche and figure out the proper way to market it." I was trying to say that there are many companies out there trying to manufacture tools that will revolutionize the industry that they are specializing in. In your case, it's the carpenter, home builder, and woodworker, as well as the hobbyist.
I was also trying to say that I've seen many companies with terrific ideas that fall way short when it comes to marketing, and many terrific innovative ideas that fall to the wayside because of improper marketing.
And finally, my advice to Burts, meant for you and your idea, is to find a better way to market your product then how you are presently doing it. Many people are thinking about the purchase of this type of guide, either from Festool, yourself, or one of your other competitors. The guys who post fanatically about your product, in my opinion, aren't doing you any favors when they become so controversial as soon as someone mentions "FESTOOL", like it's a swear word or something. Certainly, you can't control how guys talk about your product. But, and I say BUT, when I asked one of the guys in a previous post if he was affiliated with you, because he was posting picture infomercials from your website here, he simply replied by posting a few more pictures from your website. When asked to back up their claims with cold hard facts about your system, they simply reply with, you guessed it, more pictures.
My opinion in this matter is as worthless as the cyberspace it was printed in. I'm not an expert on guide systems, woodworking tools, woodworking, or anything else we discuss here. I'm just a cabinetmaker/furniture maker who comes here to stay informed and learn a thing or two. But, I do know a thing or two about running million dollar companies, and was just trying to give some feedback on possible improvements. Take the 2 cents for what their worth, and good luck to you. If I ever feel I need a router guide system, I'll look you up. If we get confrontational, maybe I won't.
Jeff
Jeff. Do you read the breaktime thread?
They told me to take my meds 2 years ago. Today the same guys are my friends and customers. Here is a partial list from my first post in breaktime.
JohnSprung <!----><!----> Sphere <!----><!----> PaulBinCT <!----><!----> Piffin <!----><!----> rasconc <!----><!---->
GWA <!----><!---->
rez <!----><!---->
The F VS E is nothing but a game to some people.
And believe me. I get attacked by both the F and the E fanatics.
We all know how and who started. I have no clue how to stop it.
And this is bad for us and for us only.
Here is an example.
The Repeater.
It got lost on the repeatability of the F vS E.
I don't see you asking how this thing works and why we need this thing.
If I told you that the Repeater is the best invention in woodworking history, I'm sure the answer would be...go and get your meds Dino.
This is what this guys and my friends told me 2 years ago.
Anyway. At least I learn something from all this.
If we get confrontational, maybe I won't.
Never. After all I'm the only one walking from here
with good and free marketing advice.
Forget the tools. This thread wasn't about tools.
Thanks Jeff.
YCF Dino
Let me speak up for Dino. He has been a frequent (and welcome) participant in the threads about EZ at Breaktime, and I have never -- ever-- seen him become confrontational, or even defensive about the EZ system. In fact, in the hundreds of posts I have read over the past year or so, Burts is the only guy I have seen that slipped to that side of the ledger. I think Dino is a genuinely good guy with a brilliant idea, who has been hampered by the fact English is his second language. Sometimes his responses are too facile and glib to be really helpful and informative. But you, and the rest of us, should not hold that against him. The truth is in the pudding, as they say. There are maybe 40-50 folks at Breaktime that have bought the system, and to a person, they all offer glowing comments about it. And this is a hard-bitten crew that makes money with their tools, so they don't seem so prone to the emotional attachment to tools you see among many amateurs. I have appreciated my exchanges with you, and I hope dino gets the message about his web site.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Hey Dino - whatever happened to old GWA anyway? Last I heard he was checking into a forum addiction intervention facility to find his formerly productive inner-child or something...
I think we've all learned a few things over the last couple of years, but many of the barriers that made it necessary for GWA to get past his initial reactions to "Dino" and the "EZ Smart" are still a problem for others who are just finding the path to EZ Smart enlightenment. If you can remove the barriers, and pave the way, I'm certain it will be a road much traveled.
Now that I know you, I've gotten past those communication barriers and I am free to examine the tools on their merits. Obviously, I'm impressed - In fact, If you make it, I want it. Send me two of everything, file my credit card number, and let me know when the next innovation is ready.
I think the majority of the people who get past those barriers feel the same way. The next trick is to simply remove those barriers right up front so people can get there sooner.
I know you well enough now to know that you will take the feedback from this thread, mash it around in your significant grey matter and come away with several improvements to your tools, your marketing strategy and maybe even yourself. I hope that everyone participating in this thread, especially those interested in helping other woodworkers see the EZ Smart light, will take your lead and do the same.
And by the way - My favorite guide system really isn't the EZ Smart; it's your e-mail address. Thanks again for setting me "straight." I said in that initial Breaktime thread, way back when, that a good measure of your success would be to earn the respect of the master craftsmen I thought you were condescending to at the time. Well, you've done that - bigtime- and I couldn't be happier for you. I hope your prosperity in '06 reflects that success in very tangible ways.
Hi,
I thought this would be a good thread to ask a question about both EZ and Festool as I am about to buy one of them. I have a PC 347 which is a right blade 7 1/4" sidewinder without a brake -- how important is having a brake when using the EZ system? Also if go with the EZ how much of a hassle is it to break down the 2 guides joined to use one for cutting shorter lengths? I guess I'm asking whether for cutting sheet goods people end up with a dedicated extra guide for crosscutting? When joined are there ever alignment issues -- the Festool offers a one piece guide of about 100". If I go Festool would it be better to get a 100" guide and a shorter one or join 2 shorter guides for the 8 foot cut? I haven't seen either system in action and appreciate all the comments on this thread.
Thanks
Joel
The brake stops the blade faster. If you lift your saw while blade is still spinning it can mess up white insert. My PC 324 doesn't have brake, my dewalt does--I don't notice any difference, but I don't push the speed factor. Putting the pieces together and taking them apart is easy. I have three pieces so I could rip 12' long wood, so I have short one for cross cuts. I have been very happy with my ez guide.
First, I have the Festool system, and I would urge you to get 2 55" guides, rather than one 100" guide. The guides seem fairly fragile to me, and prone to bending if knocked around. As a bonus, you can then use just one of the 55' guides for cross cutting plywood. You need 2 bars (at $11 each) to hold the guides together. I wouldn't say alignment is a problem, but there is a slight snag as you slide the saw over the intersection of the guides. If you do get the Festool, be sure to order the gismo (sorry I can't remember the name or number) that clips on the end of the guide, which then catches the cord and vac hose, so you don't have to worry about catching them on something as you are making your cut. As I said earlier in this thread, if I were doing it again, I would buy the EZ Smart. The guides are more substantial, cut quality is the equal of Festool, and the system seems much more versatile -- and it is substantially less expensive. Dust collection is where Festool really shines. But if your PC 347 (a model I am not familiar with) is set up for a dust bag like the current models, I think you could get "pretty good" dc. As far as a brake is concerned, it's one of those things that's "nice to have, but not essential." You will just have to condition yourself to avoid lifting the saw from the guide before the blade comes to a stop, which I would think will be some 2-3 additional seconds. If you have any other questions, fire away............********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Joel,
I've had the EZ Smart System in use in a commerical situation for a few months and think it it great. I would recommend the "Freedom" package. It combines the saw, smart table and router package as well as a few other items at a nice savings.
As for the rails, like someone else said, the EZ is better. In a test by Wood magazine, The rails flexed only .002 over 100 inches when two rails were joined together. That is much less than a single Festool Rail flexes. The EZ is the only system with self aligning dove tail connectors. That means you don't need a straight edge to join them together. As for the PC 347, I have one of those and it will do just fine.
Burt
At risk of piling on the redundancy, your saw will work just fine with the EZ. Without a brake, just "roll" the saw toward the guide as you lift it and the blade will cantilever out away from the inserts. As long as you are clear of the material you are cutting it is no problem to pull the saw off the guide while the blade is still spinning. Where the brake really helps is on cuts where you stop in the middle of the piece.
The EZ guides have three dovetail connections with an allen screw on each end. That means you will need to loosen three allen screws, about 1 turn, to slip the guides free for independent use. It's pretty fast and they realign perfectly on their own when you put them back together. I'd say you are looking at about 20 seconds tops once you have the allen wrench in your hands.
Crosscuts are usually well under 50" long so I bought an extra 30" guide that I dedicated to the square for crosscuts. It's very easy to manipulate the shorter guide and when I need to square a longer cut I just slip the anti-chip insert out and use the 30" square to set up a 50" guide laying next to it.
3-50" guides and a 30" will mean you rarely have to mess with disconnecting a guide, but given the nature of your average crosscut, if you are only budgeted for three guides, 2-50" guides and a 30" seem like a better combination to me than 3 - 50" guides.
Must disagree (respectfully) with NikkiWood. I have the Festool system and have been using it for over a year. I have two shorter guides and do not have the slightest problem aligning or using it smoothly (Nikki, if you overtighten the set screws it can cause a slight bump in the aluminum which will cause a hesitation when the saw gets to the junction -- could that be the problem?)I am delighted with the Festool system -- I can cut stock to final dimension in one pass, with no tearout and move dust collection from one tool to another. I can use the guide rail with my circ saw, jigsaw or router. The guide rail system works effortlessly. The Festool saw is also a well-designed tool -- it adjusts speed to give constant applied speed regardless of the resistance from the stock being cut. The dust collection is almost unbelievable -- that goes for the saws, router and sanders.If I had it to do over again, I would not hesitate to go Festool -- there is no reason not to.I do agree with Nikki that the end cap (which is quite inexpensive) is highly recommended so that the dust collection hose and power cord do not snag on the end of the guide rail.Dave
Thank you all for your thoughful advice. I'm leaning towards EZ guide but that superior dust collection of the Festool...........
Joel
It seems to me that dust collection often gets a disproportionate consideration when weighing the best tools for a cutting operation. Sure we need to protect our lungs and keep a clean working environment but this isn't surgery, it's woodworking.
A cheap shop vac on my unmodified Porter Cable saw, and my Rigid ROS, sucks the dust up well enough that it's plenty livable for shop work. Nobody makes a dust collection system that I would be comfortable setting up the saw horses in a client's finished living room with.
How good is good enough? That's an individual decision, but a fein vac on a Dino modified PC would definitely outperform what I consider good enough for a tool I'm primarily using as a substitute for my table saw. No doubt, dust collection is important, but I would not choose any cutting tool with dust collection as my number one criteria.
That said, it sounds like the Fein vac is the tool of choice for dust collection, the Hilti saw is the ultimate weapon for spinning a blade and I'm certain the EZ guides are unsurpassed by anything else on the market for durability, precision and versatility. Who knows what tomorrow brings? Whatever it is, I can probably adapt it to my EZ guides.
If you want the option to have the ultimate performance in every single category, I would choose a guide that will let you control the very best of every tool made. Dust collection has its place but I would rather make a small mess with a superior cutting tool than limit myself to one manufacturer in the interest of a spic and span workbench all day long.
Dave,
Do you participate in the Festool Forum? Have you noticed all of the talk about whether to get one or two rails? Did you read about the difficulties people are having with aligning the festool rails? From what I have read, you are most fortunate if you haven't had problems. More than one have mentioned using an additional straight edge to align the festool rails.
Burt
Burts, just about the time I decide to get an EZ Smart, you come along with another Festool bashing. I have always avoided buying from people who bash the competition because they are just trying to raise themselves (in this case EZ) by lowering the competition, Festool. I have appreciated your devotion to and comments about EZ, but trying to bash Festool and trying to discourage Festool buyers is just the wrong way to spread the word about the benefits of EZ.
My apologies if I upset you with my post to Justaccord. I am not trying to bash anyone or anything. Justaccord had stated that he did not have a problem with his guide rails aligning. I was trying to make sure that the potential buyer was aware of the discussion among owners of the guide rails. In fact I did not mention any other brands.
Edited 1/26/2006 4:44 pm ET by Burts
I don't see how you can say Burts is "bashing" Festool.I read the same thing at the Festool forum before I was kicked out. And from using the Festool rails myself, I can see what they are talking about.Let me see if I can explain what happens. The scenario: 2 rails (with the connector rods), no clamps, ripping an 8' sheet of ply, with your cut marks on both ends of the ply, guide rails laying flat on the ply.Now, if you slide one end of the rail up to the first cut mark, and then go to the other end of the ply to slide the rail up to the second cut mark, there CAN be a slight curve along the length of the rail. This seems to happen if the bottom mounted anti-skid tape is relatively clean, and therefore it doesn't slip very well. The solution seems to be to make sure there is a little residual dust on the anti-skid tape, then tip the guide rail up as you are positioning it (instead of laying it flat on the ply) against the cut marks. I was having this problem when cutting plain MDF, which is a lot slicker surface than ply with a wood veneer. I think you are being overly sensitive , and you seem to be implying that we should all keep our mouths shut about tools that lost out in our buying decision. I own the Festool, and I think the rails are on the fragile side. Burts does not own the Festool, but he has heard the same thing, and is simply reporting that, and for all I know, may be one of the reasons he bought EZ instead of Festool. And if I were in your spot (trying to decide which system to buy), I would count that as a worthwhile piece of information to throw into the hopper. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
If you read the thread, Justaccord said he had had the Festool system for a year and hadn't had the slightest problem. Then despite the lack of a problem Burts says effectively that he should have had a problem since he HEARD that others have. My problem is that Burts, despite he doesn't even have Festool, seems determined that everyone that is satisfied with Festool shouldn't be. I have never seen anyone else on this forum CONSISTENTLY voice complaints about a tool with which they have no experience. If someone like Justaccord has no problems, you don't hear Burts quote that fact, he is always quoting people who have had problems. Providing hearsay info is okay as long as it is balanced. That is my point, he is never balanced.
I have just gotten the saw and one short guide and I can see (though haven't experienced) the lightness of the guide but I am going to work with it a bit before deciding to scuttle it for an EZ. Costwise I can buy the EZ with router kit for about $300; to get another Festool guide rail and MFS700 Template will be about $400.
Again my problem is with a guy who ALWAYS communicates the potential problems with Festool (even to guys like Justaccord who have none) and absolutely refuses to quote people who haven't had a problem. Yes, I think passing on info is good but Burts doesn't do that, he passes on only hearsay info that is negative Festool. We will see how many times he quotes Justaccord about absolutly no problems with his Festool system.
sailalex
I just wanted you to know that I felt exactly the same as you regarding Burts posts regarding Festool bashing. I had it out with him about 150 posts ago regarding the exact same thing. There are several lurkers out there in this and other forum's whose only reason for being involved is to get into verbal arguments. If you look at every long winded thread on this forum, say 50 posts or more, you will find that each and every single time, it is the same guys going at it.
For whatever it is worth to you, I have had the Festool TS55 and CT 33 for about 2 weeks. I have completed an entire cabinet job with it, and love it. The cuts have been very straight, and my back feels alot better than it would have if I had to run 19 sheets of 3/4 ply through the tablesaw by myself. So far, the guide is straight as an arrow. I will say that I don't think I'd want to allow it to bang and crash around in the back of a pickup truck with other tools, as it is probably not designed for that kind of stress. My main reason for going with the Festool over the EZ was the quality of the plunge saw over a Porter Cable, as well as the integrated dust collection system which leaves NO sawdust blasting in your face, or anywhere else. Aligning the extra 55" guide for long cuts was easy, and holds together snugly. I don't even take it apart for shorter cuts, I simply support the loose end of the guide with a feed support roller.
Now, for everybody else out there who wants to rant, I have never even tried the EZ. I'm sure it's wonderful. Excellent. Wow. What an innovative tool!! If y'all wanna pick a fight, drop your gloves, and meet me at center ice! I'm sure you'll thoroughly enjoy the experience.
Good luck, and smooth sailing!
Jeff
Thanks Jeff. The reasons you got the Festool are the same reasons I did, for dust and quality of the tool itself.( I also got the 1400 router and I can't believe the dust collection, litle to none) As far as the guide systems, having bought only one guide rail with my saw, the options are still open since the Festool extra guide rail plus router pkge is about $400 and two guide rails plus router pkge with EZ is about $300. I am going to spend some more time with the new Festool and make a decision later.
This is getting tiresome, and the discussion is lurching back to where we were a week ago. On this end of the line, you are starting to sound like one of the Festool nuts I complain so much about ("I bought it, now I don't want to hear any criticism of it").But I really don't want to open up that whole nasty can of worms again, so let me raise another issue I would like your comment on -- any anyone else still reading this thread. You have probably encountered the posts from Forest Girl during your time at Knots. She has been here practically since the beginning, and invests a lot of effort reading, posting etc. As such, I kind of regard her as the institutional memory of Knots, and if I have a question , or if I am trying to find something, she would be the first one I turn to. Now, several months ago she took a terrible flaming from 2 different people that she should not offer any opinions whatsoever on tools that she does not own or have detailed personal experience with. I forget what the discussion was about (it doesn't matter anyway), but she was simply passing along feedback she had read and remembered over time about some tool or another. I do the same thing, and if I pick up (perceive) a consensus one way or the other about a tool, I am not hesitant to pass it along -- and qualify it as such.While any comments of this nature are not as valuable as direct user feedback, if I am considering laying out money for a tool, I believe this information is a worthwhile input into my buying decision. So my question is simply if you think such comments have a place in a free floating cyberspace discusssion like Knots?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I am not one of the "Festool nuts"; if you read my post you will note I observed the lightness of the rail, that it could be a problem, but I wanted to wait and see what my experience will be. Also, the fact that I am considering the EZ if the Festool guide doesn't work out shouldn't suggest I am above calling it like I experience it. Even if I don't have a problem but want a longer guide I likely would go with EZ because of the money($300 v. $400).
I, like you, have a strong respect for Forestgirl's opinion; in fact, I bought a router table solely upon her recommendation. I fear I failed to communicate adequately; I am not against someone expressing an opinion who doesn't have experience with a tool; my main problem with Burts is he is ALWAYS negative about Festool to EVERY post that says something positive and he never quotes anyone with a positive experience.My point about the experience was that in addition to his negative reporting , he has no experience with Festool. FG always is balanced and if there is a positive or negative, she quotes both, unlike Burts. (BTW, I always get a laugh when a poster says, " Does anyone have experience with a ........" and the first response is, " I don't have any experience with ......" but offers an opinion; nothing wrong with that , I just get a chuckle.)
<"Now, several months ago she took a terrible flaming from 2 different people that she should not offer any opinions whatsoever on tools that she does not own or have detailed personal experience with.">
I agree, and remember well the post that you refer to (the famous FG scrollsaw post, I think, hijacked by a Grizzly drill presser).
There are many sources of information about tools- magazine reviews (subject to commercial pressures and often limited to initial impressions), an individual's experience (subject to sampling error and personal bias), hearsay (obvious limitations), etc. All have their own limitations, but when qualified as such, can be useful in making a purchasing decision. For example, it's often what you don't hear that is informative... I can't remember hearing bad feedback on Lee Valley or General (no I'm not Canadian...) I'm sure someone must have had a bad experience with them, but it seems to be unusual... to me that is useful, even if it is not certain.
What I find vexing is someone who obviously has a point of view going in, and only cites evidence to support it... if I wanted that I'd watch a cable "news" show. Morever, many of these individuals overstate their own case while ignoring evidence to the contrary. The louder they rant, the less credible they become.
As for Festool vs EZ- I have the Festool system (I needed a saw and a router and got the package). I like it- it serves my needs, is well made, reliable and precise. As for the EZ- it sounds like a good system, but I haven't tried it- sounds like others have and have been pleased.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
If I read 50 different posts on complaints about Dewalt batteries, which I have, is that hearsay?If someone wants to know which cordless drill to buy, and I say my piece, including a comment on hearing complaints about Dewalt batteries, is that wrong?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
<If I read 50 different posts on complaints about Dewalt batteries, which I have, is that hearsay?
If someone wants to know which cordless drill to buy, and I say my piece, including a comment on hearing complaints about Dewalt batteries, is that wrong?>
Not in my book- it's informative. For example, someone might respond that the battery issue was identified and corrected by the manufacturer and is no longer at issue, or they might comment that the company is offering a fix or rebate, or they might say that they have tried for 6 months to have the issue rectified without success. I would find that kind of a thread informative (like the DeWalt planer sprocket thread, e.g.).
Even if someone posted to dispute the content of your "hearsay" it would still further the discussion. Hearsay is nothing more than indirect evidence- it might not be sufficient in court, but cops use it all the time in investigations. Use it for what it is worth and perhaps someone with first hand experience (i.e. a "witness") may be prompted to post and provide more info. Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Some folks count noses and gather product opinions and call it market research. Moreover, if we were limited to discussing issues with which we have direct knowledge or experience, I don't know what people would talk about ........ or at least, conversations would be much shorter.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikki,In fairness, there is more going on here than a discussion between "Festool nuts" and "EZ nuts". There is a specific and extremely offensive pattern of conduct exhibited by Burt and some others like him. When I had just started on another woodworking forum, and hadnt even found this one yet, he launched one of his diatribes on me and accused me in effect of lying about something, and wondered out loud if I was on the Festool payroll!!.I have now seen him on multiple occasions hijack threads that dont have anything to do with his favorite product and turn them into browbeating sessions.It is true that one should not make decisions based on who is offering their advice, but rather on the substance. But it is also true that these forums work only when and to the extent that people can help each other by making honest suggestions, sharing techniques and experiences and the like. I have found a great deal of that. But I have also found individuals who simply like to start trouble, bash people and the choices they have made, goat, bait and accuse without proper foundation. And those people have nothing to say which I care to listen to, which is why I am departing this thread. I hope to see you and some of the others on another thread soon.By the way, I am appalled at the treatment it appears that you received on the Festool forum. I have no patience with rules that prevent people from honestly speaking their minds. I dont know all the facts, but if they are as they appear, I would not hesitate to agree with your assessment. On the other hand, I am becoming weary of listening to one or two people who think their saw makes too much noise or hte wrong kind of noise and start a fight with everyone who disagrees with them or explains the technology to them.Since I have made many 8 foot cuts with the Festool guide rails without problems, I cannot confirm your experience. Not will it alter how I work in my shop. Worst case, I would buy a single Festool rail instead of 2 EZ rails which -- for all I know -- suffer exactly the same problem -- or some other problem.Finally, take this with a smile, but dont you think it's a little hypocritical to jump on Sallalex for being a Festool "nut" while DEFENDING Burt, who is not just an EZ "nut" but nasty and lacking credibility in his attacks on the alternative? I'd rather be enthusiastic about something that I own than spend my time bashing and fighting about different decisions other people have made.Rant is over.Dave
Dave,
I'm growing very tired of your personal insults and attacks.
As for EZ vs Festool, ever since I have known about EZ Smart, Dino has had the "EZ Smart Challenge" on his web site. I don't recall Festool or anyone else accepting the challenge.
As for your statement about my "lack of creditability", I have both a MFT and an ATF 55 in my shop? How many EZ Smart tools are you using?
Burt
I get a kick out of the people on here that base their decision to buy a tool on how abrasive someone is!
Who the hell cares if you like or dislike a person posting their comments. You really going to let that sway you from buying something? If so don't stop the counseling sessions just yet.
There are a couple post way way back mentioning that they wouldn't buy the EZ because of the website, man I have to wonder about those people, I don't seam to be able to navigate the MAX Tools site all that well but nobody can dispute the quality of their tools. Should I not buy any because I cant navigate through the site(a little late, I have three MAX air nailers)?
Just my observation on the subject, it didn't cost ya anything so that's about what its worth!
Doug
I have pondered your comments, and have a few thoughts .............. but I would like to look at on a general level. I am way more intrigued than I probably should be with the dynamics of the Festool/EZ issue/conflict/debate -- or whatever it is. These are only tools, and yet there is a zealotry here that you usually only see with much more visceral issues -- politics, religion, and the like. In my years at Knots and BT (but especially at Knots), it is not unusual for some jughead to pontificate that some tool he has decided to buy is the BEST, and everybody else should BUY IT!!!There is some of this with Festool ownership, but for me at least, there is something more insidious. I think every Festool owner would flatly deny it, but as I read between the lines I sense a kind of snob appeal, and a tone or attitude that implies "you're not worth spit unless you can afford Festool."What happened in this thread as far as EZ is concerned (with respect to zealotry) is an aberration in my experience. EZ has been discussed at BT regularly for at least the last year or so. And the tone among user comments has always been something like ...."geez, I bought this thing, and here's a pic of how I was able to trim this $900 door with my cruddy old CS, and the 5 degree cut was smooth as silk......". The discussions were always cool and objective, among people who make their living with tools seeking and exchanging information. No zealotry. I don't know what happened when this whole thing hit Knots. But I would speculate that maybe/perhaps/possibly it's a class thing. I don't know how you think about it, but I have always felt class issues constituted the 900 lb. gorilla in America that was always present, but never much talked about. The other issue you raise in this respect is why people get so nasty. I don't know the answer to that question either, but it seems to be a problem across many internet discussion groups (did you hear about the recent mess with the Washington Post?). Sure, it has to do with anonymity, since you, and I, and everyone else, can sit her chucking our spears without fear of retribution. But I also think it has at least something to do with the spontaneity of communication in this medium. Back in the old days, I would write this in letter form tonight, and then post it in the AM, giving me at least a little time to reflect on the message. Historically, I think there have always been plenty of folks who shot their mouth off before they did much thinking. And unfortunately, these forums do nothing to discourage that behavior. In the past writing has always required more thought and contemplation than speaking. But that is not the case here. Heck, look at me --- I am sitting here running my fingers off (instead of my mouth), much like I would in a conversation. Third, maybe we are just not as nice as we would like to think we are. I would say there is but a microscopically thin veneer of civility wrapping even the "best" civilizations. Without societal pressures, people can (and do) say some very nasty things (never mind deeds). Nobody I have to deal with and care about will ever read this, so what's to prevent me from slipping into a vitriolic diatribe? That's the problem that plagues many online discussions. If you're going to play in these online sandboxes, I think you need a thick skin, and a high tolerance for conflict and sometimes stupid remarks. On the other hand, when something bothers you, say so (as you have done). The Taunton censors seem to always have their finger hovering over the delete key, but instead of that, I think the best solution is self-policing.And I think it works. Do a search on "censorship" -- and you will find some very raucous threads from 3-4 years ago. This place is way more "civil" than it used to be, and I believe we have ourselves to thank for that. Overall, I think this thread has been a productive discussion. As for Festool vs. EZ, I think most of the conflict and heat has come about because of differing opinions about proper communication styles. As with any adversarial proceeding, I am looking for each party to argue their own case vigorously. Some seem to want "balance." I would say that's what mealy-mouthed politicians do when they talk out of both sides of their mouth in an effort to please everybody.I am interested to know if you (or anyone else) thinks I am off-base with any of this speculation.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Geez, I not only have become a "Festool nut" but a "mealey-mouthed politician" who talks out of both sides of their mouth. And all I wanted was both good and bad facts. I like your role as philosopher-king pontificating from your throne; don't climb down.
That's not what I meant at all, and I am really sorry if I offended you. I probably should have just kept my mouth shut, or at least left you out of it. But I do believe everybody should get to say whatever they want to say in the manner they want to say it. And from a reader's perspective, each of us no doubt holds different views on how we view the flow of posts -- hence my comment about communication styles. I am not here to offend anybody................... my interest is to learn something about wwing, and to exchange/explore views on collateral issues such as this. No throne here...........********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
As an aside, nikkiwood I tried to send you a message but it was bounced. Perhaps yo could send one to me and I'll reply. I wanted to ask you something about the Inca tools.Anyway, I really enjoy nikkiwood's comments because I think his/her comments are balanced, honest, and focus the discussion on issues that drive the threads but are often unwritten. I don't believe any insult was intended. If you take offense at the comment on Festool fanaticism, then maybe you're uncomfortable with the accuracy of the generalization. I own a few Festool products, would like to own more, but also have sensed a proselytizing tone from many of Festool advocates. But it isn't limited to Festool. If you read any of the appliance discussion at the Garden Home site, you'll see a similar devotion to certain appliances.Why? I suspect it's attached to something biological. Scientific American had an article on how marketers take advantage of several adaptive human attitudes. Branding works - or the sellers.my 2 cents.
I cannot believe this thread has gotten so big.
Bakesale, you're right-the fanaticism is not just with Festool users. In this thread the EZ folks are equally convinced of their rightness. And why not? It works for them and they are happy, and they probably feel pretty smart for getting great results for less than if they bought the Festool saw.
But I agree with nikkiwood-hang out at Breaktime for a while, and the "tool tone" is remarkably different. Yes, it's a different type of crowd, and yes, I am sure a lot of folks here make their living with their tools as well. But I'd bet that a real, working, furniture-making pro (say, Richard Jones) isn't about to wade into this 200+ post slop to take sides on a tool debate. He probably looks in and chuckles at the thought of a bunch of hobbyists getting so righteous about their selection. (DISCLAIMER: YES, I KNOW A LOT OF YOU ARE MORE THAN HOBBYISTS! If everyone that was in this thread is a "pro", then I apologize and will take this generalization to one of the many Lie-Nielsen chisel debates.)
I agree with nikki further-why the passionate stance on just tools? There seems to be more hurt and bitterness on this thread than in anything in the Cafe now.
Nikki, I can't take sides the way you requested because I have not tried a Festool and my experience is limited with my Smart Guide. So I am not trying to be "balanced", I just can't really make an informed comment. And FWIW, I like the SmartGuide but it seems to require a lot of tweaking to get it to work right with your (my) saw. I am guessing the Festool works out of the box, which is a plus.
So fire away, everyone. Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Real pros come in all shapes and mannerisms. Some of them are very even handed, always wash their hands and never burp within ear shot of their shadow. Other truly gifted woodworkers pontificate over their favorite sandwich for an hour and punch each other in the face over the smallest offense.
Whatever their stripe, all the "real" pros I've known have plenty of solid advice and don't mind sharing it - especially when it comes to their tools. I'm thankful Mike Smith at Breaktime shared his EZ experience with everyone. When a solid pro like Mike jumped in, I knew my "highly experienced amateur" gut instinct to try the EZ was a pretty solid gamble.
Of course, in my first post exchange with Mike, we fought religion and politics for well over 300 posts. I wish I could have made it to the fest he hosted. I still owe him a punch in the nose!
GWA, I know I painted with a pretty broad brush. But as someone who had what, 4500 posts on Breaktime, you have to admit the tone of the tool discussions is much different over there than it is here. They are just as opinionated about their tools but I think their satisfaction comes from something other than pride in a purchase, which is what I sense runs through a lot of tool threads here at Knots.
I suppose I should have defined "pro" as "one who makes his or her primary income with tools". My guess is that there are more of those over at BT than here, though I have nothing to back that up.
I like my tools. I wouldn't have purchased them otherwise. I could definitely upgrade almost everything. I could talk about tools all day. But I think arguing about it is kind of silly. I do understand the desire of EZ Smart supporters wanting to spread the word since you (we) are essentially Dino's advertising. It's easy to see though how enthusiasm could be mistaken for zealotry by some. I don't see it that way, but the mud-slinging is curious.
I am rambling now. I'll stop.Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Well, you may be onto something, I haven't been posting here long enough to see a real distinction in the attitudes of two forums.
I define "pro" as someone who knows what they are doing. If someone knows what they are doing, the "pros" are pretty easy to spot. There are a lot of people making a living with their tools that wouldn't know a pro if one of them dovetailed their lunchbox shut as a practical joke.
I can tell you why I'm zealous enough about my guide system to spend a few moments of my day lauding it's virtues though. I think it's the best new mouse trap since sliced bread. I see guide systems as a revolutionary concept in wood working. The EZ vs. Festool is a secondary debate - The burning issue for me is "Hey guys, there's a better way! Check this out!" The faster people "get it," the sooner more bright ideas will start flowing into guide system development and the sooner I'll become a better wood butcher with better tools.
Well, there's that and the fact that and I'm pretty sure it's all gonna end soon and the EZ disciples are going home first... His guide is EZ and His burden is light... You Festfools can't say you weren't warned!
I think the difference has less to do with pros vs. hobbyists, and more to do with the social setting of cabinetmaking vs. construction. For the most part, the former is a solitary activity, with minimal social interaction, and where taking yourself seriously is rewarded. Construction on the other hand, is a much more social affair -- coworkers, an array of various subs wandering in and out of the job -- all these folks come together to create an environment where there is a lot of banter, poking fun at one another, etc. On most sites I've seen, if you take yourself too seriously, you're dead meat. To survive (and thrive) you need a strong ego, a secure sense of self, a thick skin, and a good sense of humor. I have one foot in both camps. I think of myself mainly as a journeyman cabinetmaker; but I have also had a lot of experience in renovation, and for the last couple of years that's where I have spent most of my time. As I read Knots and Breaktime, I see all of this reflected among the respective participants. What do you, and the other readers here think?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
You know, I hadn't considered that, but I think you're pretty much on target there. I used to work in a prduction shop, and I guess it was like a jobsite because the same traits were needed to survive there. I also think it's a lot easier to be a hobbyist woodworker than a hobbyist construction worker, because even if you have a real fixer-upper the projects eventually slow down and that tile saw sits unused. But the table saw, well, that can go every weekend if you have the time. I guess that's where I was coming from-my suspicion is that most of the folks on this board are hobbyists, and may even be quite advanced and skillful. (For the record, I do not count myself in that group-13 years at this and my work still resembles a bad middle-school project.) And I would think that most hobbyists are solo workers because it's hard to find willing accomplices (unless you're the guy who runs the woodshopdemos.com website, who always seems to have a string of young women helping him out). So that leads to your idea, that the solo worker can get quite full of him- or herself if they do nice work, and everyone they know oohs and ahhs over everything because they themselves can't fathom making dinner, let alone a nice hutch or even a cutting board. So the hobbyist craftsman may get to thinking that, hey, if I do such nice work, I must have it all together and of course my tools are the best. And I will tell everyone who will listen. Yeah, I am oversimplifying it. But I know what you are getting at, and it's a good point. I am having the email problem too. when you do get them, they're like a half-hour behind the post.Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
<<"I am having the email problem too. when you do get them, they're like a half-hour behind the post.">>At least you get them; I haven't for months, coinciding incidentally, with a stream of my posts suggesting that Matt Berger's efforts to "improve" Knots had been less than successful. Ya suppose there's a connection ? : )********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Alright, now you're sounding like a certain poster who vowed to leave the forum and keeps coming back. Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Hey, I resemble that remark!
Whoops! I'm pretty confident I had someone else in mind...Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
My aknowlegement of the suggestion you sent to me bounced too. I just figured you were being anti-social.
Re: emailsSomething is messed up with Prospero, and I am getting emails only sporadically. I did just send you an email thru your profile. The email address I use for these forums is:<[email protected]>If that doesn't work, my regular email address is:<[email protected]>P.S. The message I just sent to you was bounced. So let me ask a favor: try sending an email to me at the "stribmail" address, bypassing Knots. If it doesn't come through, then I will know the problem is with that account, and not Prospero/Knots. And if it is bounced then resend the message using my regular email address, noted above. Thanks.P.S.S I guess this is the ultimate hijack .......... now this thread has wandered into a discussion of email problems.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikkiwood,
I've seen your comments about my Festool group here in a few places, and your statements keep growing more and more dramatic.Here's your most recent one:
"I read the same thing at the Festool forum before I was kicked out."I'll assume you are talking about the Festool forum on Yahoo. If not, my apologies. You were kicked out? That's funny, because I own the group and I am the only one with the power to "kick" someone out, and I never kicked you out. There was one point where I wrote to you and said that several members were complaining about your messages, a standard message I send to anyone who garners enough complaints from other members.In other Knots discussions, you've accused me of censoring you and banning you. Like I said, I've ignored those other posts, but felt it was time to step in and set the record straight.You have not been banned, censored, controlled, crushed, infringed upon, or anything else. You have chosen to stop posting on the Festool Owners Group. That was your decision, not mine.
Edited 4/5/2006 2:26 pm ET by BanyanTree
You must be starved for things to do if you are responding to posts from last january.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
This is the first time I am writing on Knots for a couple of months. Judging from the number of times you have written about being banned, censored, controlled, and infringed upon in my Festool group, I think you are the one "starved for things to do"! I haven't responded to your other postings on this matter.
GEEEEEEEZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LET IT REST!!!!!!!!! OR GO AWAY!!
Humbly,
Jeff
He does like to stir the pot ...............********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Jeff,
You don't see the irony here in asking me to let it rest? I was gone from this forum until Nikkiwood made false statements about things I did. It's Nikkiwood who seems unable to stop bringing up this fantasy about what I supposedly did to him.What would you do if someone accused you point blank of doing something you did not do? Would you just say, "Oh, I'll just let it rest?" I doubt it!Now, if Nikkiwood could keep his mouth shut on this matter, I would let it rest. But as long as he accuses me of doing something I did not do, I will respond, just as you or anyone else would do in my shoes.
You kill me. You dart in and out of here under different hidden names from time to time. It has been so easy to know who you are since your insane antics reveal your spots immediately. In the few years that I've been here, I would have to say that 5% of your posts here have been to try to help someone, and 95% have been argumentative and aggressively slanderous towards other members here. This is the first time I've ever posted to you, as well as the last. I know I speak for many here when I say that this particular community would be much better off if you'd just stay away, and run your yahoo group in all it's glory.
I briefly joined your yahoo festool group when I was considering adding the festool tools to my arsenal. It was about the same time when Nikkiwood was basically threatened to silence about negativity regarding Festool at your site. I witnessed it first hand, and got the same impression, that you wanted him to be constructively positive, or be gone.
I think you should practice what you preach, and be gone from here, since you have nothing constructive to ever add to any of the discussions around here. You're a thorn in the paw of the Knots community, and need to be pulled and tossed into the fire.
You can reply to this if you wish, but I can assure you here and now that I will ignore all future posts from you, and will not respond, no matter how well you bait the trap. I wish you the very best in your endeavors, and have a great life, Matthew.
Jeff
Your last message is typical Knots fare: you are responding without knowing the facts. Reading the content of your message, there is absolutely nothing accurate in the entire thing, from your percentages of my useful posts to what happened to Nikkiwood.I understand you are ignoring my posts. That doesn't bother me. Ignorance only hurts the ignoramous.
Edited 4/9/2006 1:37 am ET by BanyanTree
As those of us familiar with Matthew Schenker can attest, his interest is to self-dramatize, stir up controversy and engage in histrionics. Matthew is a troll. At some point, he will probably step over the line again and the sysop will have to deal with him.In the meantime, I would suggest that we simply ignore him. Do not respond directly or indirectly to his posts. If he receives no attention, he will either go away, or, if he escalates into inappropriate behavior as in the past, he will be banned. In any event he contributes nothing meaningful to the discussion here, so ignoring his adolescent behavior will allow the discussion to focus on woodworking and not on him.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon,
I only came into this discussion because Nikkiwood falsely accused me of doing things that I simply did not do. For the most part, I have let him continue to fantasize out loud, but finally I had to say something, since he is making statements about me. That's not trolling -- that's responding. Big difference. Since you are not part of the Yahoo group, you can't possibly have any idea about the facts of this situation. Like Nikkiwood, you are just throwing out whimsical statements. On the other hand, on this Festool question, Nikkiwood has routinely thrown out unprovoked and baseless statements about things that never happened, statements which have grown more and more exaggerated over time. Now let's see, which one sounds more like a troll...
Glaucon,
Doesn't sound like the Grizzly Brigade is obeying your ignore command!
Just to put a period on the end of this sentence...Nikkiwood, after fantasizing about censorship and being "kicked out" of my group, made the choice to leave my group this week.Nikki, how can it be that you had the choice to leave a group you were kicked out of?You don't need to respond, as the answer is obvious: you were making things up all along. I just wanted to have the facts entered here.
Edited 4/23/2006 5:08 pm ET by BanyanTree
Geesh Matt, ya gonna drudge up the old Grizzly drill press thing too!
Doug
DougU,
You got it backwards. Nikkiwood "drudged up" the issue by posting lies about me. I just responded by posting the facts.
Don't forget that you are buying from Festool or Dino, not the EZ or Festool fans. Buy the guide you choose on its merits. If you are going to let the tone of a post influence you either way, at least limit that influence to the posts of the manufacturers you are considering.
Why let an opinion you do not place a high value on influence you either way? It sure would be a shame if you let a guy like Burts talk you into buying the inferior product. <G>
Well said! You are right! I just hate seeing a guy running around trying to make people who are otherwise happy with their product, unhappy. You're right on!
Let me give you a little background on how I got to where I am today. When I first started looking for a guided tool system, I noticed the festool problems and a few guys running around trying to silence anyone that had anything negative to say about Festool. I made my decision and ordered my first system. I also noticed that Dino and the EZ guys were catching hell from some of the Festool supporters. During my research, I had pretty well figured out that Dino and company were shooting straight. I decided to step in and boy has it ever been a trip. I’ve received messages from Dino about pressure the Festool guys were putting on him. I’ve received emails from numerous Festool supporters trying to silence me. My stance is simple. I am a lone wolf. I work for myself only. I’ll go where I feel like and say what is appropriate. My goal is to help people make an informed decision. As for myself, I have no doubt that the EZ smart is the way to go. Last weekend, I ordered my third system - this one is coming from Amazon.
The problem here is that the festool buyers try to downplay all the ez inventions.
Before the new saw, nobody would admit they had a problem with chipping on the right side of the blade. Now, that the superior Festool saw is catching up to the ez on this feature, all festool users admit that this antichip feature on the right side of the saw is a great innovation.
This is only one example. But the ez is light years ahead of the Festool IMHO and they can't stop it by trying to silence all the users.
Edited 1/28/2006 12:41 am ET by Burts
Burts, I am not against your expressing an opinion, only that at least be balanced. When someone says they don't have a problem with their Festool whatever, don't try to dilute their experience by saying, "You must be wrong, no one I know could have a good experience with that" and then quoting all the bad things you have heard and none of the good. You HEAR both good and bad but only pass on the bad.
EZ does not make tools they make guide systems; Festool makes tools (a lot of them) some with their guide systems. You need to distinguish between the two. If you don't like Festool's guide system you don't need to bash every tool they make to make your point. I have just received their saw and 1400 router and have used their sander for several years; with minimal experience I can say the saw is at least , if not better, than any other saw I have seen on the market, the router is outstanding with tremendous dust collection, and the sander is also outstanding. These are tools that stand on their own. After some experience with the guide system I will determine whether it works for me or it doesn't.
Your campaign for EZ as a "lone wolf" would be much more effective if you try to maintain the balance that you see lacking in Festool owners. Enough said!
"Burts, I am not against your expressing an opinion, only that at least be balanced. When someone says they don't have a problem with their Festool whatever, don't try to dilute their experience by saying, "You must be wrong, no one I know could have a good experience with that" and then quoting all the bad things you have heard and none of the good. You HEAR both good and bad but only pass on the bad."
First, I have never used the phrase that you included in quotes. I assume that you are talking about my post 233 to "Justacord". I told him where I was reading. I gave a minimum of information and my reference included both positive and negative comments.
Also, a question: What is a "balanced" opinion? The only thing I can imagine is an opinion that is so diluted that it says nothing at all.
EZ does not make tools they make guide systems; Festool makes tools (a lot of them) some with their guide systems. You need to distinguish between the two. If you don't like Festool's guide system you don't need to bash every tool they make to make your point. I have just received their saw and 1400 router and have used their sander for several years; with minimal experience I can say the saw is at least , if not better, than any other saw I have seen on the market, the router is outstanding with tremendous dust collection, and the sander is also outstanding. These are tools that stand on their own. After some experience with the guide system I will determine whether it works for me or it doesn't.
I consider both the Festool and EZ guide systems to be tools. As for your comments about the Festool "tools" (the way you see them), the only one I have ever commented on is the saw. Difficulties with the ATF were well documented. Also the most popular topic on FOG today is how inaccurate the depth gauge is on the new TS.
Your campaign for EZ as a "lone wolf" would be much more effective if you try to maintain the balance that you see lacking in Festool owners. Enough said!
In expressing an opinion, balance doesn’t exist. I just state the truth..
We are loosing sight of the goal of this thread. It's becoming EZ users vs. Festool users. I'm not shopping for either - Anyone else?
I think you keyed on an important distinction, but I would argue one semantic; EZ makes incredible tools, they just don't have cords. Some of the tools I control with my EZ tools don't have cords either.
That in a nutshell is the primary distinction I see between the EZ and Festool GUIDES, as you said, the only tools made by both companies. Let's get back to the tool comparison:
People put Biesemeyer fences on their Delta table saws all the time. Why not take the same approach with your tool guides and pair the best with the best? In fact, you can order your Delta table saw with a Biesemeyer fence already installed. Delta isn't even as brand loyal as some of the Festool users.
I see the Festool guide kind of like a cordless tool battery - Only one brand of tools works with it. Once you buy that guide, you're stuck. To me that's is the biggest of its multiple shortcomings.
The EZ durability, versatility, square, repeaters, etc. set it apart as the premium guide in this debate. The saws, routers and other corded tools you control with the guide system cost the same no matter which brand you buy, and which guide system you pair them with.
I guess I just don't understand why it has to be Festool vs. EZ; Why not both? What is the reasoning that makes someone stick to a single brand for both their guide and power tools when there is a clearly better option on the market?
If I owned a Festool saw and router (and frankly, I wish I did) I would control them with the same superior guide that I chose to control my Bosh saw and Router. The EZ guide is absolutely head and shoulders above every other guide on the market. I just don't think that point can be successfully refuted on any of the guide system features. As a bonus, it costs a little less to buy that superior quality.
Even if every corded tool in your shop has a Festool label on it, I just don't see the benefit in buying their lower quality guide, for more money, and locking yourself into a corner on the brand of tools you can use with it.
I'm cheap and un-loyal like that. For me, every tool decision is based on best bang for the buck. I don't know why this is such a difficult decision for some. On that criteria, my guide choice was EZ.
Uh, ok... so Biesemyer is actually owned by Delta now. Sorry, I didn't get the memo.
The Biesemyer story actually has a familiar ring to it: http://www.redmond-machinery.com/biesemeyer.htm
Kind of makes you wonder what Dino will be doing in ten years doesn't it?
This is the best explanation I have ever seen to help people think about these two systems. You ought to copy this and trot it out every time the issue comes up in the future -- and it will..................Well done.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Well, first off until the most recent incarnation of the Festool it offered only one sided antisplintering. This most recent version may or may not have long term reliability issues. For myself, I don't put a lot of weight on reassurances from a vendor when their tools makes disquieting noises. The saw is (as has already been noted) essentially useless (or at least very cumbersome) off the rail. It is for all practical purposes a plunge only saw. Very narrow workpieces are much more easily handled on the SmartGuide. The router guide is dramatically more versatile. The clamping system is likewise more versatile and safer. I have BTW had great success using a simple antislip mat under my SmartGuide thereby making one of Festool's most talked about "advantages" moot. My PC saw retains antisplintering even off the rail, whereas the Festool saw of course does not. Let's see... that's all that comes to mind until I have my coffee ;)
PaulB
I think you have got it right , Paul. Dino has created a great do everything system allowing any tool. Festool has created a great (pricey?) saw that coupled with the EZ and one's own router can do it all.
AGREED! I can't count the number of times I have bought an inferior tool for 1/2 the price (or more) of a good tool and ended up being totally dissatisfied, and often buying the right tool before it was over.Price IS important. I can't afford a CNC router system. But when I realized that the cost of laminating 1 4x8 sheet of mdf with Formica was WELL OVER $100, I realized that where the most used and critical tools are concerned, $50 or even $100 has to be put into perspective. I know that Festool tools are more expensive than any of their competition. But I have several of them, and find them to worth the difference in every respect.Dave
Price IS important. I can't afford a CNC router system.
Now you can.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/Greek-key
That was done without moving the guide rail.
The only other tool that can do this?
A $16.000 CNC.
David
"Can't take it with you"? A friend replied "Then I'm not going".
Well, I just got done reading all 137 posts!
Man am I tired
BTW, I have the EZ, I build cabinets for a living, the reason that I bought it was to handle the sheet goods. I like it. Cant say that I've ever seen the Festool used except by Tommy Silva on TOH, and I'm sure he was being paid to do so.
I'm not giving up my table saw just yet though. I made some pretty unusual crown moulding with it the other day and I don't know how I'd of done that with the EZ, or the Festool for that matter.
Gotta give my eyes a rest
Doug
I think we're all tired ..........................********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
As David said, we have encountered each other before. This is the tactic most often used by this group. When they start posting comments such as his last post, I see no point in continuing. I'll fight to the end as long as we stay on point about the tools. As usual, he chose not to offer specific comments about the tools and to reduce it to uncalled for personal tasks. 'Sorry they chose to do that.
Burt
Yea, well I see some posts on this thread that I'd consider less then genuine!
Some down right phoney!
But hell, its a free country, you can justify about anything.
Doug
LOL... Well gee Doug, don't hold back. Without engaging in personal attacks, why don't you tell us all specifically what aspects of this discussion you think are disingenuous? I'm interested since I know many of the participants (at least online).
PaulB
Paul
I know just as many of the people on here as you do, online of course!
Without engaging in personal attacks
Since you put restrictions on it I guess I'll decline.
what aspects of this discussion you think are disingenuous
None of the discussions about either product, just the extra BS that seams to be a part of some of these discussions.
Doug
"Phoney" --- "less than genuine" ???I don't know what you're talking about. Personally, I think there is a lot of value in hashing these things out. Burts, for instance may have gotten a bit testy -- and maybe tiresome -- but he reined it in, and came back with a cooler approach. In my book, he's a beaucoup pro who is worth listening to.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikkiwood
You mention Burts as one of the people that "got a bit testy" and "tiresome" I find that interesting, I didn't catch that part. Maybe I wasn't looking for some one on his side of the fence to point the finger at though.
I agree about the value of the discussion, I learned a lot, some of it had to do with the two tools that appear in the thread title, some not!
Doug
By now I have read more than I realy wanted to about the debate of the EZ vs the Festool; so to move the discussion into a bit of new teritory, what thougts are out there about the EZ cutting table? Not withstanding the fact that some of the retoric about these two guide systems has almost caused me to avoid either one of them, I will be purchasing the EZ guide system. So back to my question, has anyone got any comments about the cutting table system? (Unless I'm mistaken, Festool doesn't make the equivalent table, so the debate of which company's product is best, shouldn't happen.)Thanks in advance for your replies.
I have the SmartTable and use it almost daily, wood. It's one of those DOH why didn't I think of this items. Deceptively simple, but with a number of very clever twists that make it indispensible if you work with sheet goods, assemble cabinets or face frames, or have some elaborate clamp ups (in short, prettymuch anyone ; ) It's a real back saver, and beats the heck out of any other technique I've seen, especially for cutting (such as using a piece of foam on the floor and similar nonsense).
PaulB
Edited 1/17/2006 8:26 am ET by PaulBinCT
Paul hit the nail on the head. The Smart Table is just to simple to work like it does. I was just reading on another forum about a gentleman who decided to make his own version of the smart table. He spent over $60 for supplies and 8 hours labor to come up with a table that he said wasn't half as good as the Smart Table.
I, like Paul, use my smart table almost daily. Mine is in a cabinet shop and it performs more functions than I ever imagined it could.
Re: the Smart tableCan it be broken down (easily and quickly) and hauled along with you for job site work?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Absolutely Nikki...
There are several alternatives, but I built mine out of a folding (cafeteria style) table and it collapses to slide right int the truck, taking up all of maybe 6 inches of width.
PaulB
And to Burts............Both of you bought a folding table -- which I would imagine makes for a cutting surface that's about 29-30" high, right? Also, I'm assuming you bought a table (for the legs), because Dino does not sell a set of legs for that purpose. 30" seems high to me for a cutting table; are there any alternatives for something that is 6 or 10" lower?I am accustomed to cutting sheet goods on a pair of 4' wide horses that are about 20" high (with three 8 ' 2X4's, that are half lapped with the top of each horse). That seems like a comfortable height for me, and if needs be I can climb right up on the sheet to make or finish a cut.Any thoughts?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood-Dino does, in fact, sell a pair of what he calls Banquet Legs for $34.95 (Item STBL, at the bottom of the page when you click on the EZ Table picture). I couldn't find the height in any of the descriptions, but the banquet name suggests somewhere around 30".Don Brown
What I am really asking to you, and the others, does this height (30") work well for you when cutting sheet goods, etc. ?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nice to be acquainted with a "banned person"; I have always found them to be more interesting than most. :)
I hate to say this but I made a table (from the EZ smart idea) from a piece of MDF (24"x48") and bolted 2x4s on edge similar to EZ scheme; I was going to make some saw horses but HF had their little portable workbench on sale for $9.99 so I added to one I already have and it sits about 30". Not much cost but it works.
Took the plunge and ordered the TS55 but only with the 55" guide rail; plan to order the 1400 router today. I am going to try the guide system and if it works buy the other 55" guide but I may just buy the EZ Smart guide set et. al. I really like the dust collection feature Festool builds in as well as quality but feel the EZ offers more versatility. Trouble is the next step will be either another $70 guide from Festool or a $190 from EZ. If you buy Festool though another $190 shouldn't make any difference.
Hi Nikkiwood, I thought I'd jump in too. I have the complete table package with folding legs as it comes direct from Eurekazone. The table is higher than what you are used to, but as has been suggested, you could easily cut the legs off to get it down to a height you are more comfortable with. I was also accustomed to a lower height and fully expected that I would cut the legs down, but so far I've found it to work fine. But I did have to get used to the different height. As for stability, I also wondered if it would be stable. Although the table top is only 2' x 4' it is a very stable setup. I have had no issues with stability and am surprised at how well it works. I just adjust the fingers to suit what I'm working on and all is fine. As has been said by others, the fact that the legs are only 24" wide is not an issue with the Smart Table. I find it to be quite a useful product.
I am guessing you bought the table from EZ, right? In my case, a big part of the reason I like the lower height (about 20") is that I can move a piece of ply over to the table with a panel carrier, and then kind of tip it onto the cutting surface. I put some anit-slip tape on the leg bottoms of my horses, so they don't slip around when I tip the ply.I don't think I am strong enough to lift a piece of MDF up and then onto a table that is 30" high. How do you do it?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Yes Nikkiwood, my complete Smart Table came from Eurekazone. And I do want to say that I agree with you on table height and knowing what works best for you. I've adjusted to the height difference and it seems to work for me, but if I should eventually decide that lower is better then I will not hesitate to cut the legs down. Cutting comfort and ease are the most important things. My method has been to have the plywood stacked on sawhorses when the lumber yard delivers it. From there I slide it over onto my table for cutting. I have two sticks 1 - 1/2" wide with the slick easy skid tape on both sides that I slip under each end of the plywood to help me slide it over. I have a cutlist ready when the plywood is delivered and immediately cut things up, even if they are only to rough size, and put them out of the way or start assembly. I did have to make some adjustments to the height of my sawhorses to accommodate the difference between my old cutting setup and the Smart Table. I never work with MDF but I can understand the problems of dealing with it due to the weight. What I like about the Smart Table is that it gives you some flexibility to tweak things to your particular liking or style.___________________
Midcoaster
Sounds like a good system.I stockpile plywood, and store it on edge in an 8' rack with about 4-5 compartments. Thus, I slide it out, pick it up with a panel carrier, and flop it on those 20" horses I spoke about earlier. It is not the best system -- but it is what I have room for.Nonetheless, I am going to get the rack when I buy the EZ system, since it seems like such a slick way to cut stuff. I'll probably buy the adjustable legs I found online, so I can play around with the height. BTW, thanks for all your helpful comments on all this; it is always helpful for me to know how other folks do things.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I'm glad I could be of help. I think your decision to buy the Smart Table is one you won't regret. And the adjustable legs sure sound like the way to go. Good luck with your system!___________________
Midcoaster
The table I am using is in the 30" +or - range. The table that I bought had 4 straight legs so they could be shortened. If you are accustomed to a lower table, I can see where you would prefer that. Even the reach is a bit easier with a lower table, I find the lower height to be less comfortable overall. Also a portion of it may be the height of the operator.
I did the google thing and found an outfit that sells legs that are adjustable (20" to 30"). Problem is the legs are only 24" wide, whereas it appears most folding legs (for banquet tables) are either 30" or 36" wide. I like the idea of adjustable legs, but with the way the Smart table is configured, do you think they would be too tippy?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
The legs that I have under my smart table are no more than 24" wide and I haven't noticed a problem. If the legs are more than 24" wide, the extra width would make transporting the table more difficult because they would extend past the width of the table when it is folded.
Thanks. How wide is the piece of ply you use for the table (and how long)?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
The top is 2' x 4'.
Again, Paul is right. I went to Lowes and bought a cheap plastic folding table. I think it was under $40. When I took the plastic off, I had a Tubular steel frame that worked just perfectly under the smart table. I just drilled a couple of holes thru the Tube frame and screwed the top on. Also the way the table frame is made, the legs lock in place so they aren't flooping in the breeze when you try to move.
The Smart Table is such a useful addition that I now wonder how I lived without it. For cutting sheet goods it's perfect. You just drop your sheet goods (or whatever you're cutting), place the guide and clamp it, then cut. The fingers let you run the blade right through them with no worry about the blade hitting anything that may damage it. The adjustable fingers let you size your work area to the size you need, which makes it a much bigger table than one would think. It's a table for routing as well. I also find it really handy for clamping glue-ups. And something valuable to me was the ability to stand my boards on edge between the fingers while I applied the glue, which made the table a sort of third hand for me. I've used it as a cutting surface when sawing with my jigsaw. I can use it as an additional assembly table. I have mine on removable casters and can easily bring it into the house and do glue-ups when it's too cold to do them in the garage. You can remove the fingers by pulling them out and use the table as a work surface for other things. It makes a nice surface on which to set packages from UPS while you try to fight and cut your way into the packaging. It is extremely portable because you can fold the legs up and you have a 2' x 4' square table that's easy to transport. I'm sure there is so much more one can do with it, but those are some of the things I use it for. My Smart Table stays set up all of the time. I keep my extra guides stored under it on an easily removable shelf. When I got it I envisioned it being folded and out of the way most of the time because I didn't want to sacrifice the 2' x 4' of floor space it requires. But now I don't consider the loss of floor space a sacrifice, and view the Smart Table as one of the best additions to my shop.
If your comments were intended for me they may be justified. If not, they at least served to remind me of something important. Ah-pree-shate-cha!
For the record:
I began my carpentry apprenticeship framing with my grandfather when I was 8, and I've been involved in construction one way or another most of my life, but I make my living these days in Architecture.
I bought the EZ Smart while building our house. I had a lot of help but I carried the brunt of the construction over the 2 1/2 years it took me to get us moved in. It's still not finished and I'm still finding new uses for the EZ Smart working on it; So, while I have a tool or two in my hands most every day, if I left anyone with the impression that I make my living with them please adjust your glasses and re-read my input.
I do build regularly, I use a scratch awl to make most of my precision marks and I can consistently hit that mark dead on with the EZ Smart. I'm faster, and more accurate, with the EZ Smart than I am with my table saw but it's a cheap saw and I'm not going to compete with the likes of Doug on either one.
You will also notice my post count is pretty low. I don't know for sure but I guess I was well over 4,000 posts deep on Breaktime when I realized it was becoming an addiction that was negatively impacting more important things in my life. I checked out for a while to get a grip.
I'm participating in three Knots threads right now, all of them related to the EZ Smart. When I called and ordered the repeaters from Dino recently I decided to check out the forums again to see what people were saying about the system. I never intended to chip in when I dropped in but it's a compulsion of mine.
I like the tools, they've improved the way I work and I believe they would be a valuable addition to anyone's shop. That's hard for me to say in one sentence.
So Doug, if you had me in your sights then I hope I've eased your discomfort. If it was someone else then I hope they will square with everyone so we can all make educated decisions about their input as well.
And also, thanks for the heads up - I needed it. Just one sip hu...? There's got to be a 12 step program out there somewhere... <G> Peace!
I can't imagine anyone here or BT would doubt your credentials GWA. After all, I've heard many people say you were an institution here ( or was that "should be institutionalized"?... ;) )
PB
Thanks but frankly, there are days that I doubt my credentials... Nothing like building a house in your spare time to put your skills in perspective!
My dog still thinks I know what I'm doing, but he's not all that smart.
Well, I still have faith in you, and you don't even have to feed me ;)
Kevin
You'd be the last person on here that I'd make insinuations about. Hell I'd drive up there to Abilene and tell it to your face! :)
I probably shouldn't have said(typed) anything but since I don't go into the tavern anymore I have to find other places to seek out confrontation.
My complaint wasn't with anyone that was talking about the EZ. I have it, I talk to Dino, I like what he's doing, I like the product. Matter of fact I just got done showing it to a neighbor that was watching me use it, he's going to go home and look at the web site, man I hope that doesn't turn him off!! He may never talk to me again. :) (Maybe that last sentence will help some to understand my comments!!!)
I was a bit surprised to see you over on this side of the fence though, you been back in BT? You know if you stay out of the tavern you find out you have a kid, a wife and other things to do. I have so much more free time now that I don't go in their.
Glad to see you active again. You got the house all done? I'm planing a trip with my son this summer, hope to go to the mountains up in Montana and Wyoming, maybe I'll stop in like I had always planed, seeings how I'm not getting out of Texas as soon as I wanted to. <G>
Doug
For any of you still reading this thread, you may be interested to know I have been "put on notice" by the "Group Owner and Moderator" of the Festool User group, Matthew Schenker. Here is a link to what I said:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FestoolOwnersGroup/message/7839And here is what Mr. Schenker said to me in an email dated January 17:***********************************************************************
To: "nikkiwood0" <[email protected]>
Subject: You Are on Notice
From: "Matthew Schenker" <[email protected]> Add to Contacts
Date: Tue, Jan 17 2006 6:23:51 PM -0000nikkiwood,
I'm putting you on notice because of your recent activity on the
Festool Owners Group. This action was taken after complaints from at
least three other group members.You are permitted to continue posting to the group, but your posts are
now being moderated and must be approved by me personally before they
are posted to the group.If you post another message similar to the one in question, you will
be banned from the group without further notice.If you show good behavior for a period of 30 days, I will turn off
moderation.The messages in question is Message #7839.If you have any questions, feel free to e-mail me.Matthew
Group Owner and Moderator
********************************************************************I think this is so amusing I may well post it over on the General forum.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Nikki,
You really should have posted a warning on that! I think you owe me for a keyboard after I spit coffee all over it ;) Too too funny! And people wonder why (some) Festooligans have a "reputation".
Thanks for geting my day started with a laugh!
PaulB
Nikkiwood,
Does all this mean you're the new festool rebel leader?
Thanks for your insight and honesty.
jericho
Great idea... I can see Nikki as Princess Leia. Now, we need a green Death Star, and nominations for Darth Vader. I wonder if I can be Obi Wan?
Wait... does this mean Dino is Yoda?
PaulB
(I'm investigating the rumor that there is a light saber adapter coming soon for the SmartGuide)
Edited 1/18/2006 8:12 am ET by PaulBinCT
I'd be a pretty dreadful Princess Leia, since I would have to go in drag................********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Ooooooooops... deepest apologies, I just checked your gender. In that case.. you can be Han Solo?
All of this (being banned at the Festool User's forum) is about as inconsequential as anything can be.But ------ on a deeper level it gave me new insight into the freedom we enjoy in this country. Just imagine what it must have been like to live in Stalinist Russia, or a lot of other places where even the mildest forms of dissent are not tolerated by the tyrants in power. For me, this has been a great object lesson.Hoping that more people would see what MS has done, I started a thread over in the General forum on this matter. In setting it up, I tried not to get personal, but I still half expect the Knots moderators to delete it. Sad..............********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
For what my opinion is worth Nikki, I don't think it's inconsequential at all and you're being very gracious. Censorship in such a vindictive and petty way is an affront to the reason most of us are here, that is to say a free exchnage of information and opinions. Not to mention it's a pretty glaring indictment of the mindset of ummmm... certain people.
PaulB
What I meant by "inconsequential" is simply that my voice was muffled -- but the action of "being put on notice" carried no serious threat as it does in so many other parts of the world. On the other hand, maybe I ought to be careful opening any packages in the next few months : ) ....................Also, let's not forget the Taunton folks deleted the thread I started in the General forum on this business, and I suspect this thread is not far behind.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood
OK, I'm back. Things have gotten civil again, as I have been reading all the posts here. I too joined that Yahoo Festool group, but wasn't impressed. Too much hype, not enough solid knowledge and info for my tastes, so I just unjoined. I really can't believe they censored you like that. I wish I would have been around for that one, I would have given them so much to chew on that they might have forgotten about you.
Anyway, I wanted you to know that I'm extremely pleased after a 1 1/2 weeks using my TS55. I have finish cut all the sheet goods for 2 cabinet jobs, and have been extremely pleased with the quality of cut, as well as the precision. I've had no trouble keeping things straight and square. I've developed a rhythym, and know that I could never keep this pace with my table saw. Also, the dust collection vac ( I got the CT-33) is impressive. Virtually no dust anywhere near my work table.
For a work table, I took an old kitchen table that I was using for glue-ups, and put a 4X8 sheet of 3/4" mdf on it. On top of that, I put a 3/4" 4X8 sheet of polystyrene, and then lay the sheet good on top of that. The cushion from the poly allows me to literally 'drop' a 4X8 veneered panel on it without worrying about scratching or denting a $100+ sheets of plywood.
Lastly, I want you to know that your posts have always been educational and informational without showing bias or emotion. In my opinion, those are the critical ingredients for someone to be able to learn something. The censors over at yahoo will be missing out on that, as it is obvious to me that alls they wanna do is pat each other on the back about how smart they are for purchasing Festool tools. I hope you continue to add to the discussion around here.
Jeff
Edited 1/18/2006 9:01 pm ET by JeffHeath
Nikkiwood
What happened to that thread in the "General" folder?
I made a silly little comment about the company being German.......checked my e-mail and saw that two people responded to my post......when I tried to go to the thread it was gone.
Did it turn ugly? Cant imagine that!
Doug
Did it turn ugly? Well it hadn't by the time I left this morning.By posting it, I knew I was hovering under the Taunton censor's knife, so I really tried to be as diplomatic as I knew how. And I tried to turn the discussion away from Shenker's action, and steer it toward a more philosophical dialogue about the chilling effects of censorship. Obviously didn't work, though.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Have any experience with the Fein vacs? If so, how does the CT-33 compare? I like the Festool vacs a lot for the square compactness, but I get stuck on buying the disposable bags ($5 each, aren't they?); and if I got it right, they want something like $170 for a cloth bag. I would think I could hire the best seamstress in town to make me a snazzy felt bag for less than that.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood
I've had no experience with Fein vacs. During my decision process of which panel saw to get, Fein was going to be my choice if I went the other way.
I have to say that the CT-33 is the best vac I've ever used. I have an older SHOP VAC (brand) that I've been using for at least a decade, and it works well enough for cleaning up around the shop. I've been hooking it up to my PC ROS to help with the dust from sanding, as well as to my router. It has worked ok, but there was always alot of dust left after the ROS, and half the chips from routing ended up on my bench and the floor.
With the festool, I've not had to clean up anything so far. I'm looking into getting some sort of adapter to hook the festool vac to my sander, to see how much improvement it makes.
Jeff
I can't remember if you have one of the Festool sanders. But from what I have read, and a user I talked to the other day, the dust collection on these machines is way better than good. I can't remember all the details, but it has something to do with the unique engineering design they have built into the sanders. I have a Fein and am about to buy another. I would prefer the square, squat design of the Festool vac, and I would buy that one instead if it were not for the high price of their permanent cloth bag.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I have the Festool 150 ROS sander and it is a jewel. I can detect absolutely no dust except a very slight amount on the surface of the workpiece and that is easily wiped off. I have heard of folks using it inside the home with no dust.
BTW, bought the Festool TS55, cranked it up, had the noise, went on the Festool Users forum and got confirmation that it is a normal part of the beast. Should be receiving the router today; I'm in! :)
RE: the noise with the Festool saw. Yep, that's what they're saying, and it does make some sense to me. But the curious thing is when I bought the TS 55 (at a place where you can walk out the door with your purchase), we tried one saw, and it sounded funny to me. The guy brought out another saw, it sounded fine, and that's the one I bought. Parenthetically, I got flamed pretty good on this issue at the Festool Users forum. Many seemed offended when I kept pushing the engineering types to explain why two brand new saws could sound so different. It was as though I was questioning the engineering integrity of Festool, and most just wanted me to shut up already. Some of these Festool users have built an interesting culture for themselves.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
On the Festool User Group, I asked the question about the noise (see awarrenj5 and old saw/new saw) and the tech's explaination and got confirmation. One of the guys referred me to a site for a manual , which seems a lot better than the one that came with the saw, wherein it mentions the "normal" noise and its relation to the speed control. I'm satisfied!
nikkiwood
I've had the chance to use the sander at Woodcraft. I have to say I was impressed. There was virtually no dust left on the piece of cherry I sanded, when used in conjunction with the vac. It is probably the next tool that I will buy, as soon as I am finished using up the 3 boxes of sandpaper for my Porter Cable.
Jeff
Which of the Festool sanders is speaking to you?I really like the concept of the Rotex sanders, and the 6" version speaks to me every time I walk by it. I mentioned before that I was about to buy another Fein. I have an old Milwaukee (from the cheap end of their line) that I use for job site work, but it is going downhill fast. My question: is the CT 33 really all that great -- so much so that I should quit obsessing overing paying $5 for each disposable bag?The ideal scenario for me would be to get the sander and vac in one of those package deals Festool offers.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood
The 6" rotex sander is the one with the ability to switch between ros and buffing/sanding, right? If so, that is the one I'm definately going to get. My decision was made easy by the fact that I won a pretty large poker tournament last night, LOL!!!
The CT-33 is 134 cfm, and I don't know what the Fein's suction capacity is. I did get a chance to see the Fein in a demo at woodcraft, and it was good. You have to remember that my only long term comparison to either is my Shop Vac, which is basically a $100 vac which can't even pick up all the dust on the floor without several passes. I'm impressed with the CT-33 mainly because I've had the chance to use it every day now for 2 weeks, and I have no more dust pasties up my nose from cutting panels since I got it. (sorry for the graphic!) It is a tool that really does do what they say it will!
If I can take an hour or 2 away from the knots and spend some time investigating, I'm hoping that the Festool will sell adaptors that will hook it's hose up to some of my other equipment. I really wouldn't worry about the $5 vac bags if I were you. I sure didn't let it make my decision for me, and I'm glad that I didn't. Somebody told me that you can empty them, but I'm not the type to fuss over that. Heck, I spend $5 a day on starbucks coffee. Life's too short to worry about the little things.
I keep a tool fund ($$$). I have another business to pay the bills at home, so 50% of my commissions from woodworking go to the kids' college funds, and the other half goes to the "Heath Woodshop Improvement Society", if you know what I mean. I have learned over the years to buy what I believe are the best tools I can for the need that I'm trying to fill. When I find a mfg. who produces quality stuff, I usually stick with them until they prove me wrong, thus my extensive collection of LN planes. I have a health condition that also plays a part in my decisions, and being able to saw all day long with no dust and chips flying all over is a huge plus for me. I find respirators very uncomfortable to wear for extended periods of time.
My guess is that unless you plan on stocking up on Festool tools, the Fein will be an excellent choice. On the other hand, I think the Festool vac is great, too. Alot of help I am. I'll let you know how long it takes to fill the bag with full time use. Mine is not full yet.
Jeff
I saw a demo of the Festool 6" Rotex last fall, and it is a lot of machine. It can buff, but its main attraction for me is the fact you can use it in one mode for really agressive sanding (like a belt sander), then switch to the other mode for swirl free finish sanding. The rep said the quality of the sanded surface was the equal of their other standard ROS (the 150 line).They also have a 5" rotex sander; it is configured differently, and it looks to me as though it might be somewhat easier to use, although I would guess it is less aggressive -- since 6" ROS always seem to outperform their 5" brethern. I know I should just quit obsessing about spending $5 for the vac bag. But right now I am making casings/baseboards on-site for a 3 story house; I use the vac for the Bosch 4000 and my router table, and yesterday alone, I had to empty it 3 times. BTW, I assume you are using the vac hose from Festool. I first tried a PC hose I have with the CS, and it didn't work worth spit (too small, kept kinking). So I surrendered to Mother Festool and bought her hose for $70 +, and I will admit it is markedly better even than the hose which comes with the Fein vac.I find I use the word "surrender" a lot when I think of Festool. thanks for your help in moving my decision along; I am not quite there yet, but almost. I do want that sander.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
See! We are living and writing proof that off topic banter goes hand in hand with the hard cold facts about tools. We've got 2 intelligent (I think) discussions going at the same time in the same thread, not even remotely related.
I've got a serious case of 4-foot itis. Whatever boat I ever owned, I always wanted the one that was 4 feet longer. Same with tools. Why get a 5" when a 6" is available. After demo'ing the unit again today, I discovered that in regular mode, it's even more aggressive than my belt sander. When I was done, I couldn't even get my hand dirty by wiping the board. I've been impressed twice now by this company. I ordered the 6" rotex (sp?) today. I should have it by the end of next week.
Do you use your router alot indoors on jobsites? I have given up trying to collect chips during tool use in my shop. It is one of the few times when I do wear my respirator, and then just sweep up around my bench when I'm done.
Last, and certainly first in importance, I read in another post about your pooch. I want you to know how sorry I am. My chocolate lab, Trooper, is like my son to me. I was devastated when my last dog passed, and when Trooper goes to that big Pheasant Field in the sky, I'll probably want to go with him.
Take care,
Jeff
When you tried the 6", did you give the 5" a go as well? If so, what did you think, and how would you compare it to the 6"?With the router, I always collect the dust when I use the router table; in the shop I have a JoinTech fence with a vac hookup. In the field I have a self-built fence with a simple attachment for the vac. When I hand hold the router, I have never used a dust pick up. Too clumsy, and the chips are generally big enough that they don't go airborne. But if they do, I use a mask.Yeah, Nikki was a great dog -- but aren't they all? One of the things I liked most was that she was not what she seemed to be. On the outside she was this big, fierce looking Doberman with rippling muscles and a hellacious bark. Yet she was this sweet, gentle creature that kind of radiated a good spirit to those of us around her. She was also the dumbest dog we have ever had, but in way, that was a large part of her charm. She was like a slow, earnest child who always works hard to do the right thing. Through all the years, I never raised my voice to her; all I every had to do was explain and show her what I wanted her to do. This is a sad time in our house, and it will be for some time.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
They didn't have the 5" for demo, or at least, I didn't see it sitting there on the shelf. I had a chance to check out the 6" rotex sander, as well as their jigsaw. Also an impressive tool, but I have 2 bandsaws, and rarely run into a situation that calls for a $250 jigsaw, so that will stay on the shelf.
I have the jessem master router table and slide, and have 2 dust collector hoses hooked up to it. One to the fence, and one to the cavity that the router mounts into. It's completely sealed, and does an excellent job on dust. I use to hook up the vac to my PC routers, but the bosch I just bought to replace my PC plunge router that burned up doesn't even have the port built in. I think you have to buy a seperate base for it. I'll just continue to sweep up, as the PC only caught half of the chips anyway.
Jeff
I actually have less fondness for the 6" Rotex than any other Festool tool. I dont own it, but I did get a chance to borrow one for several hours and use it in my shop. The great advantage of my EQ 150 is incredible balance, lack of vibration and ease of use. I have sanded over my head with it comfortably. It feels like you could go for hours without getting tired.The Rotex, on the other hand, is heavy and aggressive. I realize that in direct drive mode that may be what it has to do, but as an RO sander, it's still heavy and awkward.I havent had a chance yet to try out the 5" Rotex, but I suspect that will be my dual-mode sander of choice -- I'm willing to sacrifice a little horsepower and aggressive stock removal for control, comfort and ease of use.That's my $.02.Dave
Sorry to jump in on the reply but I have the 150EQ sander. The dust is virtually non-existent. The paper also lasts a lot longer because the dust doesnt keep breaking down the grit. Best news is that the sander is virtually vibration-free. I had to sand a 1x8"x20 ft cover over a steel beam holding the sander over my head! It was actually a pleasure!!!Good news though. The Fein vac has a little more power than the Festool and if you just get a Festool hose it works perfectly in the Fein.Dave
Everything I hear about those Festool sanders has been good.Which Fein do you have -- small medium or large? I have the medium, which is ok for hand held tools, cleaning up etc. But I'm thinking of getting their bigger model, since that would probalby work bettery with my job site TS.Wha do you think?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I have both the medium and the large Fein. They both work really well. No regrets. And with the Festool hose, it makes a tight connection at the Fein (although it is lacking a certain nib the Fein hose has that locks into place) and works just fine. I like having the Festool hose, because I can move from one to another of those machines by just plugging and unplugging the hose and power cord.I also use the Fein for the router table. Even with the PC 7518, it controls the dust and the automatic outlet (on the large Fein) has enough amps (20 I think, but dont remember for sure) to run the router plug through the vacuum, so on-off is automatic as you fire the router or shut it off.I have seen no need to buy the Festool vac, and the stats show it has slightly less sucking power than the Fein.Dave
Please don't make me sign up for another user's group. What did you say that got their dander up?
I had folding legs on my table but they folded up on me at the wrong moment one day. I used MDF for the top and the screws pulled out under the lateral load when I tossed a sheet of MDF on it (ok, so maybe I didn't actually "toss" a sheet of MDF - It was more like I gracefully collapsed under the load and the table failed to catch me) When I recovered from the hernia operation, I turned my table into a reinforced bench with 4x4 legs. I don't have to be mobile with my setup so I opted for the extra stability. It still weighs less than a sheet of MDF.
I use the table like a bench sometimes so it's higher than what might be optimum for cutting only. I don't recall the exact height but the end of the support arms hit me about mid-pocket and that seems about right.
At that height it's pretty versatile. I cut out the top between the plastic runners so I could use my bar clamps as hold downs and stops, I ran some screws into the top to act as bench dogs that I can plane against, I throw a solid core door on top of the supports for assembly sometimes, and best of all there's plenty of room between those supports to beat your head on the solid top when you think of all those years you did without it and where you would be spending your millions if you had only thought of it first.
As with everything I own from Eurekazone, it's just a simple piece of ingenuity that works as advertised. I keep eyeing the floorspace, where I have trouble sweeping the sawdust out from under the table saw legs, and thinking of all the things I could put there if I could just figure a way to safely mount a dado blade on a circular saw.
What did I say? Here is the offending comment, and the post that prompted it:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FestoolOwnersGroup/message/7839********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Thanks, I caught the link in your initial post but they wouldn't let me read it without signing up. Oh well, so now I'm a member of the Festool users group. It was worth it!
I went ahead and signed up for the Yahoo EZ Smart users group too. That ought to kill my productivity for a while. <G>
I don't know how closely you have followed Knots over the past few years, but I thought those who do would get a chuckle out of the whole thing, especially coming from a party that seems to enjoy tossing rhetorical incendiaries as he moves through a thread. I think forums like this are a great study in human nature. I am constantly amused by why people do what they do, and say what they say. Some jarhead will come along and say something ridiculous, and then be offended when others call him on it. I think the larger issue is how far sponsors like Taunton will let forum participants stray off the reservation. In their perfect world they would like to see communications conducted with that old Minnesota adage "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."Berger is tightening his grip (i.e. deleting threads and individual posts), and the question is whether or not this is a healthy development for Knots. But now, I am heading over to the Cafe to raise these issues to him. I hope you will join the fray:http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=33647.1********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Thanks for the invite but I'll pass. In my estimation, a cafe that doesn't have a good knuckle sandwich on the menu is as powerless as a public brawl, completely lacking in wit and wisdom, when it comes to meaningful exchange.
Much as I'd love to give everyone the benefit of my "sensory perceptions," the Tavern over at Breaktime has taken too many hours of my life in endless and unchanging debate already. If I had spent half that time on one of my other writing projects I would probably be collecting enough royalties by now to retire and hit all the Taunton fests I wanted too.
I would still like to change the world mind you. I'm just looking for more effective ways to invest my efforts. If I can convince someone to try the EZ Smart guide, help them learn how to effectively sharpen a chisel, or just remind them to touch base with their kids now and then, I'll probably improve there life a lot more than scrubbing away at their stripes with the more abrasive elements of my personality.
Best of luck to you though. Debate is important - I've grown a lot through my Tavern exchanges, so those hours were not fully wasted. The clashing of open minds is powerful stuff.
Unfortunately, in my experience, the anonymity, and lack of accountability on the internet, allow the closed minded antagonists to rule the day on the forums. I take some small comfort in the hope that I've at least helped a few children improve their reading and typing skills with all the brilliant prose I've hammered out of this keyboard over the years. <G>
Oops - Edit: To correct a deficiency in my reading and typing skills.
Edited 1/20/2006 9:59 am ET by GoldenWreckedAngle
Unfortunately, in my experience, the anonymity, and lack of accountability on the internet, allow the closed minded antagonists to rule the day on the forums.
I've seen exactly what you describe many, many times. In the end, this is often why hosted forums such as this often survive, because a little censorship often makes the conversation more productive. I think MBerger and SYSOP have been awfully careful and have exercised commendable restraint.
In the end, this is a service hosted by a commercial enterprise and I have to admit I've gotten an awful lot of value for the money I've spent. I don't know if Taunton expects this site to make money in and of itself, but even if it doesn't, I hope they understand it contributes to profitability in other ways. One reason I subscribe to FWW is to support the site, and that sentiment has been part of the purchasing decision when obtaining at least some of the 21 (by actual count) Taunton woodworking books I own.
Most of the value I've gotten here comes from fellow customers, but I do not discount what Taunton has contributed and does contribute that makes this peer interchange possible.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I have a quite different take on the anonymity issue. I like it. In the real world of communication, I think all conversations are influenced by the credentials of the participants. We are swayed by all the baggage a person brings to the table -- degrees, experience, their job, social/economic status, etc. If the president of, say, Milwaukee Electric Tools, comes into a conversation with me, my responses will inevitably be influenced by my knowledge of his position. If he comes to a forum as "Joewoodworker", I get to make a judgement of his post solely on the basis of its content.For the most part, around here you get to establish your reputation and credibility by what you say -- not who you are. I think there are a certain number of folks in this forum that are accustomed to deferential treatment (for whatever reason -- be it position, personality, etc.). When someone disagrees with or challenges their comment, some will just slink away; but others get truculent and disagreeable, and then we're off to the races. I am not bothered by this at all, since I take it as a natural part of the discovery process in exploring this new phenomenon called internet communications. Lord knows, I have had people pile on me when I posted something that was ill-considered -- or just plain dumb. I have come to realize, through this Knots thing, that my way is not necessarily the only way -- or the best way. I'm still working on it, but because of this experience, I think I am a better communicator out there in the real world -- and as MS (not that MS) would say, "that's a good thing."********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I have a quite different take on the anonymity issue.
I like it.
??? Maybe you're responding to someone else? My point is that a moderated forum is a good thing, when done well -- and that I think it's being done well here. It was someone else who pointed out some negative effects of anonymous posting.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
Sorry ------It was the comment in post 200 (from Golden) that got me going..............As far as the role of the moderator is concerned, I have been going round with Berger (the present Knots Moderator) about this issue in another thread, so the issue is on the top of my addled brain. I am arguing that he has been too heavy-handed in attempting to "control" the flow and direction of Knots. It seems to me that we have lost a lot of the veteran wwk's and pros in the last year -- people that brought considerable expertise to Knots.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Golden
I read your post to Nikkiwood, and felt that I needed to comment. I really do agree with everything you are saying, and have found myself completely amazed at how well I am drawn to this site for interaction with others regarding the various topics of discussion. In my world, I'm the president of my company, and make all the decisions, tell everybody what I want done, and only one guy who works for me occassionally, and I mean once in a long while, offers up something constructive in defiance.
When this goes on for almost 20 straight years, a person (me, me, me) starts to believe that they are all knowing, and has the proper decision and solution for all things worldly.
And then I found this place. The original excuse I used to give myself for coming to this site was that it was for my passion in life, Woodworking!! But, I have come to realize that I truly believe I'm becoming a more grounded and well rounded person because of the interactions with guys (and gals) like you and nikkiwood, to mention just a few. I know it has helped me to communicate in a different way with the people around me, and look at things from all perspectives, not just mine.
And, being an ex-hockey player, I absolutely love a good argument once in a while, even if it is only verbal!! :).
Jeff
Jeff,I just read you post here -- after responding to an earlier post about the perils of anonymity. I would be interested to know if you think my observations there are on the mark, off the mark, or somewhere close.............********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Anonymity. A double edged sword. I try to pass judgement on a person's viewpoints based on the merits of what they are contributing. After you've been here a while, as we have, you learn quickly who has what to offer. I pride myself on knowing when to chime in, and when to just be quiet, read, and learn.
Typically, a tiger will not change his spots. If some of the folks changed their user name here, and started posting under a new handle, I would quickly base their credibility on the merits of their offerings. If they were fools before, then those stripes will certainly show themselves.
Most of the 'arguments' that occur here have tremendous usefullness, in my opinion. In my opinion, your other posts were dead on when you stated that the old salty pros are like sharks sniffing blood in the water. This community needs their participation to thrive at a high level. If the censorship and moderation cause these guys to no longer have any input around here, then we all lose. If some anonymous person who I've never read from before answers a question, then I consider it. If Richard Jones chimes in, I know I've got solid advice. It takes a while for someone to develop that repoire and trust with me. Hell, if I've got a carving question, I just email Lee Grindinger, cause I know he's not around too much anymore.
Taunton can't allow a total free-for-all to occur here, but they can be a little lighter with the eraser, in my opinion. What the hell are we going to offer Richard or Lee, to just name a few, in the way of woodworking information to pique their interest into answering the tough questions around here with sound advice. Alls we need is a little blood in the water to get them back, without anybody requiring surgery in the end.
Jeff
I like your analogy of "a little blood in the water."But there are a lot of folks around here who actually seem to get upset when discussions crop up or veer off into non-wwing topics. I have really never beeen able to understand this, since it is so easy to scroll past a post or click on another thread. Me ?? --- I'm always up for a good argument if it touches on an issue that I care about -- and, censorship in all its forms, thought police, stridency, etc. are on top of the list.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood
I think that there is a time and a place for everything. If somebody here wants help on how to grind a bevel on their new chisel, imho, that is not the time to start an argument, or enter one either. There is nothing to be learned, because there are many ways to skin that cat. When I first started posting and reading here, I would always post those threads with sound advice. After a while, I began to see that there were going to be 10 people helping that thread along, and no need to get involved. BTW, this forum is the first one that I have ever been involved in, and so it was like a new, shiny toy to me. Suddenly, I found a place where I could find intelligent conversation. I think my woodworking was pretty darn good before I came here, and I know that it's a lot better now because of my participation here. Now, the only time I get involved in those conversations, is if somebody is trying to run over somebody with wrong information, or if I feel "a friend" needs a little help and moral support from a literal bully.
For whatever reason, we all develop our "knots pals", and since I played hockey for 22 years, I find that my personality is such that I love sticking up for my teammates. Probably sounds kind of corny, but it is how I feel.
After several months of the "new knots", I can honestly say I liked it better the old way. I miss having some of the 'old salt' floating around here. My wife still can't figure out why my favorite tavern in town is not the big trendy sports pub, but the oldest, dingiest joint in town with peanut shells and popcorn all over the floor, as well as the occasional feminine article of clothing strewn from the ceiling. I hope Matt and the gang make the necessary changes to get them back, but I still do appreciate the opportunity they give us here to express ourselves and better our craft. We are all linked by woodshavings, and sometimes it seems that we forget that.
Jeff
This is totally off subject, but I couldn't send an email directly to your address. I know you own some Inca machines. DO you know anything about the RAS sold under the Inca name but manufactured by an Austrian company? It was very light and had a router plate attachment so that you could swap in the router for dados, rabbets, etc. Thanks.
I don't know what's going on with the email account I use for Knots. Some stuff comes in, but some -- like yours -- gets bounced back. Just as a test, why don't you try emailing me again through my profile. If that gets bounced, try sending it directly to <[email protected]> to see if that gets through. I do own 2 Inca machines -- the 570 jointer/planer, and the 340 10" bandsaw. Unfortunately, I don't know anything about the RAS they sold for a time. I assume they, like the other Inca tools, are no longer being sold in this country. Do you have a line on a used one? If so, I would call Garrett Wade and see what, if any, support they are offering for the RAS. with the 570, for instance, they still sell the blades and belts -- but if one of the working parts needs to be replaced, I am fried. So, buying any Inca equipment these days is kind of a crap shoot. But...... the two I have are my all time favorite machines.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Cool - must have been my guilty consience bugging me for posting on company time.
A visit from you would be a real treat! Bring your tools <G> We'll throw the boys on the bounce around, some venison or turkey on the smoker and do our best to treat you right.
I'm not really active again - in fact, I was just leaving... after the next post... I'm pretty sure.
Nikki,Good observation. The only dynamic that I know of is this -- I have bought a number of tools (some of them quite expensive) that simply don't get the job done for one reason or another. There are certain tools out there that advertise as performed, but they are somewhat rare. I put Festool, Incra and Lee Valley tools in this category. The same can be said of computers, software, automobiles, etc. In the fake world in which we live, it is rare and exciting when something works as advertised. That has been my experience with Festool. So although I would not call myself a fanatic, I do have a special appreciation for the design effort and functionality of hte tools. I like a sander that does not vibrate excessively. I like a router with good dust collection.They set out to do something and did it well. And doing it well means that using the tools is delightful (compared to some of my other tools).Maybe it is the rarity of performance living up to advertised expectation that causes the dynamic you have observed, although it could be more complicated.Dave
RE: <<<Maybe it is the rarity of performance living up to advertised expectation that causes the dynamic you have observed, although it could be more complicated.>>>I think that's part of it, but I do think there is something else going on -- and I can't quite find the handle to understand it. I've certainly never seen anything quite like this before in the world of tools.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Justaccord, You hit the mark:
"But to really help each other, we should try to be brutally honest..."
'Brutal honesty' is what I'm looking for. When these co's products are compared, many times it is by somone who has tried only one system.
Brutal honesty is where the EZ is making its mark. The festool works well within its own confines. The EZ works well with one's imagination. A closed system will always have limits. The EZ seems to be unlimited.
Just my thoughts,
jericho
EZ SMART VERSATILITY.
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Edited 1/2/2006 8:39 pm ET by davidwood
Edited 1/2/2006 8:41 pm ET by davidwood
Davidwood is absolutely correct about why I went with the Easy Smart. It is so versitle and you can use most of your existing equipment. I also had the opportunity to work with Dino on a couple of prototypes for the sliding square. Man, are those things nice. It is so much easier when all you move is the square instead of the board. I cross cut a complete kitchen with the square and couldn't believe how good I felt when I was thru with it. There was no strain from trying to align heavy boards with stops like I did with my excaliber sliding table and horizontal panel saw. I also liked the heavier guide rails - no flex - and the self aligning dove tail jointers.
I was sold on the ez for the router versatility until I saw the cost of the router guide..... $125 for just the guide attachment! Ouch!
I run a machine shop.
I can't make it for the same price.
Seven major components with 12 extra holes
drilled and tapped on the slide to receive other jigs.
Yes. It sounds expensive. But this tool works as advertized.
http://eurekazone.com/products/detail/srs.html
If I can make a flutted collumn in few minutes and without the need to move my guide rail, It pays me back the very first hour.
Here is what I like about the ez smart. You don't need the router kit for simple routing. The guide rails are the strongest in the market with no deflection and the only one that I know with self aligning connection system.
You can slide off the white antisplintering edge
and you have an edge guide.
David
"You can slide off the white antisplintering edge
and you have an edge guide."
Even better, you can slide off the white anti-splintering edge on the non-cut side and you have an open track to attach cool stuff to make the guide system work mo-bedda!
I know this subject has had much past discussion, so I really appreciate everyone taking the time to share their thoughts one more time. There's a woodworking show here this weekend, I hope both the Festool and EZ are there to see "in person". I'll be leaving with one of them.
Take a look at the third picture posted by Davidwood. It shows the repeater and this device is the one thing that makes me think I might someday give up my table saw. The repeater is used much like a fence on a table saw. The set I have can cut up to 26". Also these allow you to make cuts of less than 1/16" of an inch when you use the appropriate clamps.
Once you set the repeater, it functions as a fence. Push the board to it and cut. You get consistent same size pieces. It is much safer for thin cuts than the table saw will ever be.
I gather that this has been discussed here before. We've certainly been over it a couple of times on Breaktime. In fact, I gave Dino fits when he first started posting at Breaktime - big fits. I nearly put him on ignore if you want to know the truth.
I finally bought the basic system on the evidence of its positive user feedback and I'm a lot more cordial to Dino these days when I call to order the next accessory.
There are many benefits to the EZ Smart system but the number one thing I think the EZ system has going for it over the competition is that it is ripe for development. The EZ system gets better every single day. If you buy the EZ Guide today, there is no telling what some new accessory will make it capable of tomorrow. In fact, you will probably find that you've made it better yourself before long.
Anyone who's made more than ten cuts on a table saw has built at least one jig or fixture to make it better. If you check Dino's web site frequently you will see constant development of those same kind of jigs and fixtures going on in close to real time. That is a direct result of user feedback - The EZ Smart will keep getting better and better on a daily basis as Dino, and many of the EZ users, develop jigs and fixtures for the EZ Smart guide platform.
I personally think that's the number one reason so many EZ Smart system users come off like "disciples." It's not just a guide system - after a few shop built accessories, it's our system. In fact, it's a system that might actually change some of the ways you work and think about shaping the materials you build with.
With the EZ, you can make a call, or fire off an e-mail, directly to the head of the company, as I have a time or two, and a few weeks later your thoughts have found there way into an improvement to the tool. You can tune the EZ System to your personal style with your own jigs and fixtures as well. Buy a few extra EZ clamps (or make them if you're cheap like me) then start building your own arsenal of attachments to do your thing. Call the head of development at one of those other companies and see if they put you right through.
Bottom line - If you're looking for a glorified shooting board, roll the dice and take your pick. Most of the guide systems do a great job with the basics and you will probably be happy with any of them. For that matter, a piece of MDF and a couple of C-clamps do a great job with the basics and that's about as EZ and affordable as it gets. If that is all you really need, seriously, cobble together a shooting board and spend you money on something besides a guide system.
On the other hand, if you are looking for an innovative, portable, affordable, versatile system, that will get better with your own jigs, fixtures and feedback, the EZ really is the "best" choice.
Hope that helps and good luck with your decision.
Thanks alot for your post here. I am presently gathering information for the decision between EZ and Festool. I actually had the whole festool package picked out and ready to buy last night, and something made me wait.
I'm back to at least considering the EZ. The more I think about it, the more I agree with exactly what your post states, that it has the limitless potential, and many tools and jigs can be adapted to it.
At least for now, I am most concerned with a system for cutting up sheet goods. I've read about the Porter Cable saw being a good choice. Could you please tell me what your feelings are on the best saw for the system, as well as whether this particular saw has dust or chip collection in mind. What blade would you put on it, etc....
I'm delaying my purchase until I hear back on these concerns of mine. Thanks again!
Jeff
The right blade PC is by far the best bang for the buck. You will appreciate that dust collection and the blade brake an aweful lot if you ever use a saw with the guide system that doesn't have them.
For the life of me I can't figure why I bought the Bosh, except that it was one of those clearance table deals that was just too hard to pass up. I absolutely love my left blade PC - best dang circular saw I've ever used and I've used a bunch of them.
I've used a Rigid and a Bosh right blade with my EZ guide. If I had it to do over again I would either get an 8.25" saw or the PC. Hope that helps.
Edit: Oh yea, you asked about blades - I use Erwin 40 tooth blades (another bulk clearance table purchase) and they work great. The Diablo 40 tooth is the one Dino recommends. There are metric blades on the market that measure 7 1/2" instead of 7 1/4". If I ever use up my current stash I will probably try to find a metric blade to get that extra 1/8" or so I need to get through 2x materials.
Right now, when I have to cut dimensional lumber I just use the EZ as an edge guide for my left blade PC. Dino hates left blade saws - I take some satisfaction in knowing that it drives him nuts. :-)>
Edited 1/4/2006 6:54 pm ET by GoldenWreckedAngle
OK. I see this as a chance to support an American company. Is the Ebay purchase the way to go for $159.00 or is he giving the same deal if you call him directly.
Also, it seems that the ebay deal packages up everything I need. Can you think of anything besides the anti-skid tape for the bottom that I might need that is not included in the package on Ebay.
Thanks again!!
Jeff
Edit: Just searched for PC circ saw. There are many! Do you happen to know the model # of the one you're recommending. Thanks.
Edited 1/4/2006 7:23 pm ET by JeffHeath
Edited 1/4/2006 8:19 pm ET by JeffHeath
Edited 1/4/2006 8:25 pm ET by JeffHeath
I believe that the right hand saw with the brake is the 325MAG. It's more than the non-brake model, but I figure that brake's got to be worth the money.
Body parts are priceless. I've held on to these fingers for 41 years, and I plan on taking them to the box with me.
Thanks for the model number.
Jeff
Here's the link to the 325 PC:http://www.porter-cable.com/index.asp?e=547&p=5223Remember, with EZ you cannot cut through 2X material (or a door) with a 7 1/4" saw -- for that you need an 8 1/4" CS.With the Festool (TS 55) I have stacked two sheets of ply, and cut them both at the same time -- which you can't do with EZ (unless you have the bigger CS).If I remember correctly, one of the reasons Dino pushes the PC is that the dust collection is better than most other CS's -- but none of them are in the same league as Festool.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
The PC Mag circular saws have a Safety Recall Notice.
You can find more info at:
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml06/06040.html
and
http://www.porter-cable.com/index.asp?e=5983&p=973092
to find out what serial numbers are affected.
I've cut dimensional lumber and doors both with my 7 1/4" saw and the EZ guide system. I pulled the anti-chip strips out of one side of the guide, cut an aluminum spacer gauge to give me the correct offset from the blade to the edge of the saw plate and just used the guide as a straight edge with the saw riding next to it. With the flat anti-chip inserts in the base I still get a clean cut. I could get an 8.25" saw but no more often than I'm called on to cut those thicker materials, offsetting the guide when I have to is a very workable solution.
In fact, if cutting thick materials is a priority for you, the EZ Smart is the only guide I know of that will give you the option of cutting thicker materials than your average table saw can handle. What other guide system can you attach a Makita 16 5/16" circular saw to? If you cut thick materials regularly just pick the appropriate saw for the depth you need and leave the thin stuff to the other guide systems. If it's just an occasional cut, slip the flat anti-chip insert in your 7 1/4" base and offset the guide when you have to.
While we are on the subject, it's worth mentioning that the reason you come up about 1/8" shy of pushing through a 2x with a 7 1/4" saw is because of the thickness of the EZ guide rails but in my mind it's one of the systems strengths. The rigidity of the rails is amazing. With three 50" rails attached together and clamped with the smart clamps at each end, there was no measurable deflection over the length of a 12' long 2x12 I cut the crown out of.
For storage, I suspend my 100" guide (2-50's locked together) over my work table with a sling at each end. I just leave the middle of the guide hanging out there flat for gravity to have its way with it. When I need it I reach up, slip it out of the slings and drop it on my marks for the cut. That guide has been up there, when not in use, for more than a year and it's still as straight as an arrow.
On the other extreme for material thickness, my wife sews - She's been known to swipe my guide rails to cut fabric with her rotary cutter because the edge guide holds the material so flat and smooth while she cuts it. That is just about the ultimate in cutting thin and flexible material with a guide rail. The clamps are of little value in this application.
You hit on one really strong point with me. The EZ is so versatile. I have a variety of saws set up for the EZ. I do custom woodworking and occasionally get into some pretty thick stuff so I set up a 10 1/4" Saw for that. For normal day to day in shop use I have a couple of 7 1/4" saws. For that quick cut on site or minor installation job, I have a 6 1/2" makita cordless.
The 325 mag is the saw of choice but the blade brake has a more practical application than just safety. The quicker the blade stops the faster you can pull it off the guide rail without worrying about nicking your anti-chip insert with a spinning blade.
I've gotten pretty good at rolling the spinning blade of my non-brake Bosh off the guide without incident but I have a couple of nicks in the insert to show for the learning process.
What you're describing is probably what gives a slight advantage to the Festool plunge saw. When it's un-plunged, you don't have to worry about it knicking the edge. Man, the choices we face!!! LOL. Thanks a tremendous amount for all your input here. I feel as though you have helped me make an intelligent decision, along with Nikkiwood. That's no slight to the other posters, just that you two folks have answered almost every question I had and gave me quite a bit to chew on. I'll let you know what my final decision was, coming today, or tomorrow at the latest.
Jeff
Rest easy - The fact is you will probably be happy with either one of them, and next week you'll be the new evangelist on on your decision's team.
Of course I hope you're smart enough to let me talk you into saving some money on the superior product, but happy cutting to you either way. <G>
I'm going tot he Baltimore woodworking show tomorrow ready to buy a guide. I've sent Dino a couple of emails to see if he'll be there, but no replies. Does anyone know his show schedule?
Call this number.
732-259-9984
David
His show schedule on the web site says to check back soon, he will be touring again this fall. I'm glad to see him with his hands full filling orders.
I hope he doesn't mind me posting this here but when I got in touch with him to order the 26" repeater I also got some bad news. Dino is recovering from an automobile accident that the doctors told him he wouldn't live through - Appearantly they don't know Dino. He also lost his brother to an illness the same day as the accident. He's already back in the shop but I'll wager a break from the show circuit for a few months is warranted, even without the production scramble.
That said - he puts on a pretty good show right there on the web site. I have to check in once or twice a week just to see what new trick he's come up with. E-mail him, include your phone #, and ask him to treat you to the special he would have offered you at the show. That way he doesn't have to stop making tools to answer the phone (though he never seems to mind) and he can still give you a call when he's free. [email protected] He always gets back to me pretty promptly.
On thing I do like about the Festool guide is that you can use it without clamping the thing down.I know the EZ has anti-skid tape you can apply to the bottom of the guide, but my question is can you really make cuts (with either a router or CS) without clamping the guide down?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
You can make cuts with the EZ without clamping. In fact I never use the clamps on plywood. I do use them when ripping hardwood because sometimes a saw can follow the grain.
The Anti -skid tape on the ez is a little different. It is applied to the replacable anti chip insert (Edge that gets trimmed to create a "0" clearance insert). This way it can be removed EZ. I have an extra set of inserts with the anti skid tape. I primarily use these if I'm in a situation where clamping is needed but nearly impossible to do.
Also, before I forget, since the anti-skid tape is used on the anti chip insert it can be used to add a new edge to the anti-chip insert.
I have found that sometimes the anti-skid tape can also cause difficulties with the precision placement of the rails , speed, use of smart clamping system and the repeaters.
The EZ Clamps are like a spring clamp. Just adjust them to the right pressure for the stock you are using and then just slide them on and off the board. The clamps stay in the slot in the rail. 'Saves a lot of twisting clamps.
Edited 1/5/2006 10:36 pm ET by Burts
Edited 1/5/2006 10:51 pm ET by Burts
Edited 1/5/2006 10:58 pm ET by Burts
Yes, you can use the EZ guides clamp free in the right situation. I'll wager any situation where you can't use the EZ guide clamp free, the lighter and thinner competition would certainly take a clamp as well.
I don't have anti-skid tape on my EZ guides but clamping is not totally necessary on wide boards or sheet goods where there is sufficient area to establish tension between the material and the guide. The guides have enough weight, and the saw base glides smoothly enough, that clamping is really more of an added insurance in that application. I like added insurance, and I'm generally not trying to break any speed records, so I take the time to clamp anyway, but even there it's just a matter of setting the tension where you can grab and release the material with a quarter turn of the tensioning knobs, or no tension adjustment at all.
The exception is that I never clamp when I'm using the square. I snug it up tight to the panel, grip the opposite edge, right next to the guide, and hold a touch of pressure on that end with my thumb. (Ok, so technically that's clamping but it doesn't waste a moments time) The crosscuts are always as square as a boy's choir.
For small pieces, where you don't have the benefit of surface tension, I have yet to encounter a situation where I couldn't figure a way to lock the material firmly to the guide with the clamps. It really shines at making 1/4" thick hardwood edge banding. The clamps do work well enough that you literally can split a 5/8" thick piece of wood into a pair of 1/4" edge bands. I haven't had a situation where I've needed to create shavings I can read through yet but yea - it's definitely doable.
As to accuracy, I make my marks with a scratch awl and split the line with the blade. I've learned a few tricks that get me that close consistently but I dare say anyone can get within wood movement tolerances on the first cut after they trim the anti-chip edge guide to size.
This system is one of the smartest tool innovations I've seen in my 37 years on the planet. It's not perfect yet but it's getting better every day. (Hey, that's me!) Frankly, I don't think the other edge guides are keeping up but they do seem to be learning... <Grin>
I just took delivery of the EZSmart last week. Ordered it Thursday afternoon, had it Friday afternoon. Very impressive. Also got the SmartTable kit, which is pretty cool as well. I was looking at the Festool but I just kept choking on the price. I already had a PC 423, which I swapped for a 324 to take advantage of the whole system. (Having a saw already played into my decision, no doubt.) It's really impressively made, and though I haven't had a chance to play with it, I have no doubt it will work really well.
GWA, I see you make reference to the square, though, and I was interested in that as well but I don't see that it's available on the website. Do you have a prototype or is it in production and the website hasn't been updated yet? What is the cost?
Thanks!Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
Well, I did my best to be a bur under Dino's saddle on the Breaktime forum. Even after I bought the guide, when I found what I thought was a weakness, I published it. The fact that I'm now enthused about this guide system says a lot for both Dino and his tools. He responds to criticism with solutions - which is how I came to own the very first prototype of the EZ Smart square.
The fact that I could square a piece on my table saw a lot faster than with my guide was one of my early gripes. Dino basically slapped me upside the head with the first prototype just to show me how short sighted I was being. It's such a simple device that I was left asking the obvious, "why didn't I think of that and just build it?"
That's worth a side note: It's rare that someone criticizes their table saw because they have to build a jig to solve a problem. Once I finally got that in my noggin' I went down like Custard at Little Big Horn.
I understand that several people have made their own square, like the one I have, which is basically just a couple of clamp bases with a perpendicular bar bolted to them. It can be adjusted to an angle but you have to readjust it for square every time you fiddle with it. I bought an extra 30" guide and dedicated it to the square so I could set it up and leave it alone. When I need longer squared cuts I use it to square a 50" guide laying next to it.
Patience is not my greatest virtue. I thought the prototype worked well enough for Dino to start charging a fortune and shipping them but he doesn't like to put anything on the market that hasn't had the bugs worked out of it. His philosophy is to put a picture of the solution on the web site and anyone that wants to can make there own until it's ready to market. User feedback, that improves the product, makes Dino's day.
I understand in the meantime there have been several improvements made to the design that let you slide the square around on the track without having to adjust it for square every time you need to move it. I thought it was already available but if it's not I bet it is just days away. Shoot Dino an e-mail - If they aren't already shipping, he'll let you know as soon as they are available.
By the way, congratulations - As you can see, you bought one heck of a nice tool. Now get out there and put it to work so we can swap ideas for ways to make it better.
I don't know if you can get a better deal calling Dino directly or not but he's an enjoyable character to talk to either way. Just be aware that it's sort of like calling a preacher and telling him you're interested in getting involved in the church. Dino is determined to save the world, one finger at a time!
Us left blade hedonists get the long sermon - You can imagine my delight when I discovered one of the magazine articles posted on his site had a reversed photo in it making it look like the guide was being promoted with a left blade saw. (see attached)
Uh... By the way, don't tell him I recommended you call - That could get expensive.$$$ <G>
"Can you think of anything besides the anti-skid tape for the bottom that I might need that is not included in the package on Ebay."
Imagination, and Dino's e-mail. After using the system for a while, order anything else those two assetts haven't resolved for free.
I went to the Baltimore Woodworking show yesterday. I got to see the Festool, but Dino wasn't there. In a way, I had hoped to be so impressed by the Festool that I'd buy it on the spot. In fact, almost the opposite was true. Although the saw glides very nicely on the guide, the saw itself is unimpressive to me. I'm sure it's a great saw, but I didn't see much that set it apart from a regular circular saw, except for the fact that it wouldn't really be useful for anything but use with the guide. I'm in the market for a new circular saw, but some of it's use will be for framing where the accuracy of the guide isn't needed. The Festool's anti-splinter device worked well, but is only on one side of the blade. It assumes the piece to the left of the blade is always waste. Given the cost of quality plywood these days, that's not always going to be the case, at least not for me. I hate wasting materials and I'm cheap. If I'm not mistaken, Dino's anti-chip insert works like a zero clearance insert; preventing splintering on both sides of the blade. All up, EZ Smart looks like a better mousetrap. I wish Dino had been there so I could see EZ-Smart in person.
You're right that the Festool saw is pretty much useless except when used on the guide. it has a notch on the front end of the plate, and that's what you have to use to guide the cut.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Just a little safety pointer. Always be sure to use the vacuum on the Festool Saw. If you don't sawdust builds up inside and causes the saw to jump.
what do you mean, "jump"?I've cut a lot of ply without the vac, and aside from being messy, the saw worked fine.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
The problem comes from buildup of saw dust in the saw. As it builds, the blade can't totally retract. When you start the saw and the blade is still out, the blade engages the wood immediately. This causes the saw to jump. I'm glad you haven't encountered that problem.
To be honest, I haven't looked inside the housing since doing all this cutting. I will. Thanks.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Geez, everyday I read these posts and one day decide to get the Festool and the next day to get an EZ Smart. You guys are great! The big advantage I see in the Festool is the dust collection but for long term versatility, the EZ Smart seems to have it. I would pop for the EZ Smart but would need a saw with dust collection (granted not as good as Festool). I have Festool's sander and vac and really like it.
It seems to me an EZ with a good dust collection saw might be the best as there is some reservation about the Festool saw.. Anyone know of a good saw with dust collection? The PC mentioned here was a 325MAG but there is also a 324MAG that has been recalled; are they basically the same? Any others?
I haven't checked the PC site, but I think they are the same saw -- one with the blade on the right, the other blade left. I think you have processed all the information correctly. If dust collection is your uppermost concern, and you have lots of money, then Festool is probably the best choice. For me, I am mindful about dust control, but not a fanatic. I've used a CS to break down sheets of plywood in my shop since forever (a PC with the dust bag), and the amount of dust spewed around is tolerable to me. If I hooked up a vacuum to it, it would no doubt be even better. I am definitely going to get the EZ system, since in my case I can justify it for job site work -- keeping the Festool in the shop. Every single person that has bought one raves about its versatility and cut quality. And those guys at Breaktime (who have bought one) are a savvy, hard-bitten crew -- and not quick to lavish praise if not deserved. Good luck with your decision... and let us know which way you go.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
The difference in the PC 324 and pc 325 is the PC 325 has a brake and the 324 does not.
You have correctly processed all of the information. If dust collection is your utmost concern and you have lots of money, then Festool may be the best choice.
Here is a link to the dust attachment for the PC. http://eurekazone.com/gallery/the-best-dust-collection-system
Edited 1/9/2006 10:08 pm ET by Burts
Since the PC has a dust collection port, doesn't it have its own capability. Didn't understand why EZ described the dust collection addition; were they trying to offer a cheaper way or just to improve on the manufacturers dust collection system? As I said to Nikki, I can get along with 90% of Festools capability but I don't know whether the PC gets to that level.
The plastic from Dino is used to form a shield around the front of the saw blade. This changes air flow and enhances the abilities of the attached vacuum. You still use the normal vacuum hookup.
Stacking that Makita vac on top of the saw seems cumbersome -- and it is certainly more than I would care to mess with.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I couldn't agree more about the Makita setup being cumbersome. I think DIno used it just to show how effective a small vac could be on a modified PC saw. Just think how much more effective a good vacuum would be. Also look at the photo and notice how little saw dust is on the saw.
I knew you got the Festool saw; how has it been? I read a reasonable number of posts that either suggest there are problems(unusual noise) or that performance is ample but not great. Seems spending that amount of money you should get not only outstanding dust collection but outstanding "everything". I like the dust collection feature of Festool, having the vac and sander, but if I could find another saw that got 90% of the Festool dust collection at $130, it would be okay for me. I wonder if there is anyone out there that has experience with the dust collection on the PC?
In response to your query about "strange noises" from the Festool TS55:There was a big hub-bub about this over on the Festool user forum. Most of these folks talk as though Mother Festool can ("does" is really the better word) walk on water, and for reasons that are lost on me, they kind of gather around and "stone" anyone who is even slightly critical of the good Mother. Anyway, there was a lot of engineering gobbledygook about the problem that I didn't understand, and even the head of Festool USA weighed in to say there was no problem. But -- when I bought the saw, we plugged it in, and I didn't like the sound of it. Brought out a second saw, and it sounded fine. So I bought the latter.The whole package cost me a little over $650 (I did not buy the vac), and for that money I would expect a saw that sounded and performed like a Ferrari. Mine's ok, but it ain't no Ferrari.Performance wise, it is a slick system for cutting sheet goods, and the quality of the cut is superb. Instead of overcutting your cabinet ply pieces (and then running them through the TS), you can cut them to size with the Festool and glue 'em up. But you can do that with the EZ too, with no apparent lessening in cut quality. As this thread has evolved, I have been thinking through my decision (to go with Festool). As near as I can tell, these were my reasons:1) I could buy it locally -- buy it in the AM, be cutting stuff in the PM. Which is exactly what I did, because of the time pressures of a particular job. 2) Festool, like any good marketeer, makes it pretty simple to sit down and figure out what you need to do what you want the thing to perform. 3) I spent a lot of time poring over Dino's web site, and it is just plain confusing to me. If I had been able to figure it out, I probably would have ordered up his system. As it is, I have learned more about the capabilities of the EZ system from users (on this forum and at Breaktime), than I ever learned from the web site. 4) I have a slight reluctance to buy from an entrepreneur, no matter how great their genius. I bought a great tilting router table about 10 years ago from such a guy, and then he went out of business. Now the thing sits unused because a critical part broke, and I haven't yet been able to figure out a way to jerry-rig it.5) Finally, I hate to admit it, but I think there is a certain amount of snob appeal attached to Festool, and I wasn't immune to it. In sum, given my experience with Festool, and with what I have learned about EZ, if I were making the decision today, I would pull up my socks, clean out the cobwebs from my brain, and go back to Dino's web site to figure out exactly what I needed to make the system work for me.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I agree with you ... I think Dino needs to stop rushing around at 100mph, consolidate what he has, and get some professional assistance for his web site.
I still can't figure out if the Repeater includes the GCS includes the SCS includes whatever. I tried using the "contact" form on his site to request clarification, only to be told in another forum that he never has time to read that mail.
The product looks great, it has a good reputation amongst its user base, but he really needs to consolidate his position before it all gets too big and mistakes start to happen.
I get all my questions answered the same day.
Email problem/?. Try to call him.
I have the Repeaters. They include the GCU and the SCS.
From the site.
View ImageEZR-18 Contents: (2) GCU/SCS - Guide Control Units with Smart Clamping(2) 18" Repeaters
View Image
Different size repeaters are available. We encourage you to call customer service for a recommendation as to the the proper setup for your needs.
David
Edited 1/11/2006 7:38 am ET by davidwood
When I first tried to contact Dino, there was a problem with the Email system. Recently it has worked flawlessly. Also, don't hesitate to call. If he isn't in, he'll get back with you quickly.
Thanks Nikki for your thoughts. I have to give you much credit for your objectivity in what made you buy in the first place and your second thoughts afterwards. I, like you, visited the Festool users site and those folk seem to have some problems but don't want to confess them publicly and that is what makes most of what they say a lot of hooey. If you pay $650 you deserve the Ferrari. That has been my problem with the saw, dust collection seems to be the predominate feature and I would expect NO problems at the price.If I buy one to have to check to see which ones makes the noise and which didn't , just bothers me at that price level.
I agree that Dino's site seems a bit confusing but if one can figure it out it may be the best alternative. I am going to try to find out more through another thread about the PC 325 saw's dust collection capabilities, although there is some recall on it now. If it is reasonably good I think I would opt out for that and the EZ.
Thanks again; your willingness to share your experience for the rest of us to benefit from is one of the main reasons I like this forum. Great job!
Thanks for the kind words.As far as the dc capability of the 325 is concerned, just tonight I was paging through a catalog which included the array of various CS's from various manufacturers. Unless I missed something, PC is the only one that puts any kind of DC on their saws (that little chute ).I have the PC Saw Boss, and the 7 1/4" model which immediately preceded the 325. Both of them have a similar chute, and I use it all the time with the dust bag that comes with the saw.The bag alone works pretty well (although it obviously fills up pretty quickly). I haven't tried it with a vac, but I would guess it would work well. I got the Festool vac hose, which is way better than the hose you can get from PC (which kinks and crushes easily, unless you can manage to keep it straight). One of these days I will get an adapter for the Festool hose and give it a try on one of the PC saws.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I like you couldn't find another manufacturer of a saw with DC; in this thread , I think< someone mentioned a Hilti which I haven't heard of but must be at HD. I have just posted a threead on the 325 to get some feedback on it.
Here is a link to the Hilti Saw. I'm fairly certain you won't find one of these bad boys at Home Depot. Dino reviewed the saw with the EZ Guide on his web site and it got my attention. It is a 7 1/4" saw, with dust collection, that has sufficient cut depth to go through a 2x when used on the EZ guide rail.
It's also one of the only saws on the market that makes a Festool look downright affordable. Hilti is one of the top brands in the industrial construction industry for high end gear. I have one of their rotary hammers and it's virtually indestructible.
Hilti makes a quality tool by anyone's standards. They finally brought a heavy hitter to the circular saw market, and one of these days I'll find the means to afford one for my toy box if I have to sell a kidney for the dough.EDIT to add a link to Dino's review: http://eurekazone.com/gallery/the-right-saw
Edited 1/12/2006 9:38 am ET by GoldenWreckedAngle
Their website doesn't give a price for the Hilti. Any idea?My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I'm really glad you asked. It's been a while since I first priced the system and I got a nice surprise.
I placed a call to Hilti ( 1-800-879-8000 ), to get current pricing, and its available for $299 plus tax. That is significantly less than the current MSRP of $500 and it's sure enough better than the $700+ I saw the first time I priced it. I talked to Brian at extension 5817, but anyone who answers should be able to hook you up.
Do a search for Hilti WSC 267-E too. When I searched, I didn't find an internet distributor, but I did find several recent articles that will give you the full break down on this beauty.
Not cheap but not prohibitive, then. Thanks!
I really don't love pushing full sheets over my TS, and the saw/EZ combo is something I could even take to my hardwood dealer to cut sheets so they fit in my van... It would be better than what I normally do now (get them to cut it on their panel saw), because with some forethought I could cut to actual dimension.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
With some forethought you could pretty much set your EZ Smart table up in their parking lot and take the assembled piece home for finishing.
I checked a couple weeks ago. The saw sells for ~$300. SOME HDs sell the Hilti line. A Hilti rep is usually on site for questions.
One thing you may (or may not) know is that the Hilti has it's OWN guide system that's available. Comes in two lengths. Looks a LOT like the Festool.
Well I'm wrong then... you may be able to find one of these bad boys at a Home Depot after all. Thanks rshelton. Ours doesn't carry the Hilti brand - In fact, no retailer in our area does.
The new Hilti is not available through HD's on line store yet, but I did find its little brother. Hilti @ Home Depot
The new Hilti, with the Hilti guide, will set you back about $477 direct from the manufacturer (It's $746 retail). The new Hilti, with the EZ guide, looks to me like the ultimate setup, with the solid advantage that it costs a little less and lets you do a lot more.
GWA
I'll second what you said about Hilti. I own 5 of their TE 76's, and 4 of their TE 75's. They far surpass Bosch in quality and longevity when it comes to drilling speed and tool longevity. For ten years, Hilti was the tool I supplied to my guys for drilling through concrete. We drill 1 1/2" diameter holes all day long through concrete. They were and still are the best electric drill on the market.
I've since replaced them with Pionjar rock drills, as the pionjar gas drill goes through 6" of concrete in about 10 seconds, as opposed to 2 to 2 1/2 minutes with Hilti. However, the Hilti's make great chipping hammers, and are still used for that purpose.
Just thought I'd chime in. If they make a circular saw, I'd bet it's one of the very best available.
Jeff
I bet that is one impressive operation to watch! We built our house on a bed of solid limestone. I have to break out the Hilti just to plant my plastic flowers.
Nikkiwood, that was some excellent feedback! You voiced some common objections in a very concise and helpful way. I hope Dino reads it because it will probably make the EZ buying experience better if he does.
For what it's worth, I think there is a major web site update already in the works. Some of us really enjoy Dino's gallery, with all of its vibrant imagination and unique flavor, but you do have some valid points about the overall usability of the site.
When I visit Eurekazone I see an honest and enthusiastic individual selling quality ideas as much as quality product but that honestly wasn't my first reaction. I think the free flow of ideas is a great strength to the site but it would be nice to have an easier time plunking down the little green fun tickets for product once you've bought the ideas.
Putting a marketing shine on the whole works would probably help the uninitiated feel more like they were buying a higher quality tool too. You can't help but get a sense that the quality and functionality of the guide is reflected in the web site. In some ways it is, and in some ways it isn't, but both of them will probably get better every time someone like you posts their feedback to a site like this. Thanks!
I think Dino's sales would go up considerably if he would just find somebody to comb through that site, reorganize the information, and present it in a clear, concise fashion. I generally think it is very difficult for people who produce a product to understand what a potential customer needs to know about that product to make a buying decision. And, it's very tough for the owner/inventor to prioritize, and distinguish what is important and what is not.I get the sense that Dino keeps throwing stuff at the web site, especially the Gallery, without much thought for what other information it relates to and how it all holds together. There are legions of people in the field of marketing communication who specialize in this very thing. He needs to find someone who really knows what he or she is doing, and let them have at it. However, my best suggestion would be for Dino to ask you and a couple of the other EZ fans at Breaktime to review the new web site before he locks it away. I m sure you and the others would be enormously helpful in helping them clarify where they have to present information more coherently, etc.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I don't know if Dino's finished yet but I noticed several touch-ups on the site the last couple of days. I never had any trouble as it was but I think it's easier to follow along and get what you need off the web site now. The package deals are well laid out and the standard gallery explains the basics pretty well.
My favorite part is still Dino's gallery though - One clever idea after another in there. You had some good suggestions that probably contributed to some of the improvements. I'm curious what you think of the web site as it stands today.
I admit that the gallery is what sold me as well. It might be a little crude but seeing all the cool things he's done won me over. Maybe someday I'll know a little something.
I have not yet looked at Dino's revised web site, but I will. I am sympathetic to his challenge; he is not alone in missing the mark in providing the basic information someone needs to understand the product in question and make an informed buying decision. Just the other day, someone at BT recommended I look at "Tool Hangers Unlimited" for nail gun hooks. It appears to be asmall time entrepreneur who cam up with an interesting idea (the hooks), and is now trying to sell them online. You wouldn't think it would be any trouble to add a little text, and a few pics to explain how the hooks work, where and how you fit them on your gun, etc. But al he did was include a few bad pics, with some gobbledegook about how great they are. Again, I did not buy the product, because I didn't understand exactly how it would work. But maybe I am just dumber than the average Joe....................BTW -- No, I am not being anti-social on the email thing. I have always used the same web based account for Taunton business, and for the last month or so, it has bounced everything from Taunton -- including an email I sent to you. It is interesting though, that this same account will still accept notices from the Festool User Group. I have exchanged emails with Mark (sysop), and he says the problem is mine, not theirs. So I guess I will just switch to another email address. BTW 2 -- the email I sent you was to suggest you take that nice Festool/EZ comparison you wrote, massage it a bit, and send it to Dino for inclusion in his comments section. I really did like that piece (as I said to you in a post), and i think it would be worthwhile reading for potential EZ buyers.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I got that e-mail from Taunton. I replied directly to that e-mail from Outlook Express and it bounced, so it appears that the return e-mail address sent to my desktop from Taunton's web site has a problem.
That address was [email protected]. If that address is incorrect - well, there's your problem - or Taunton's depending on how you look at it. Hope that helps.
I will e-mail Dino a revised version of the comments. Thanks for the reminder.
No, that's the correct address (for Stribmail). When you sent me the email did you cut/paste that address into Outlook, or did you go through Taunton?It is strange, since I receive "discussion subscription" notices from Taunton, but nothing else. Anyway, I changed the email address I use for Taunton, so it shouldn't be a problem any longer. BTW, you have been a valiant and articulate defender of Dino's in these various threads. I only hope the folks at Taunton are listening, since I agree with you about the value of his contribution around here. Did you read any of the D-mix stuff on BT?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
You know, I really had no intention of defending Dino when I came in here, I just kind of wanted to see what the latest EZ buzz wuz. I don't know what's come over me. I just really like the guy and his tools - I've come a long way.
I have no idea what D-mix is.
D-Mix is a near-revolutionary technique he came up with for using a roller and a combination of ingredients (mud, pva paint, plaster of paris) for mudding drywall. Fast, smooth finishings, with little or no sanding. This was a hot topic at BT about a year ago (maybe 10 threads and hundreds of posts); nobody had ever heard of it, and it appealed to many of us without a high level of taping skill.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I need to check that out. D-mix sounds right up my alley.
I was reading one of my Tage Frid Taunton books this weekend. Tage was talking about how his unconventional techniques, coupled with his "communication barrier", nearly got him kicked out his woodworking school and sent back to Denmark. What saved him was building a high quality table in a couple of hours while the students were out of the room.
I thought of my initial reation to Dino as I was reading it. I chuckle every time I think of "schooling" him like I did. One of these days I'm going to get it in my head that it's careless to make assumptions about someone with a "communication barrier." Chances are pretty good that a person struggling to help me understand their thick accent knows at least one more language than I do. No telling what else they may know that might enrich my life if I'll take the time to listen.
Yeah, and think about the special qualities and virtues required to walk into a new culture, with a limited facility for the language, and accomplish what he has. He deserves all the moral support he is getting from you, and others at BT.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
nikkiwood
Thanks for your help with the questions about Festool and EZ guide. I purchased the Festool TS55, with the CT 33 vacuum. I also got the extra guide for long cuts, and some accessories that I would want to use.
It wasn't an easy decision, but, I wanted a system ready to go, out of the box, without having to go find a circ. saw to work with the ez guide that wasn't on recall, and then wonder what vac to get, etc....... and how well it'll all work together. I've seen the festool in action at the local Woodcraft, and got a chance to make some cuts. Darn near as good as on my 66. Certainly good enough for what I need it to do.
If I ever decide to go down the router road, I probably will not go the Festool way, and will probably pop for the EZ guide at that time. I just can't see spending 400 + bucks on a router that won't even allow me to use my extensive collection of router bits and profiles. By the time you add the cost of all those 8mm router bits, whewwww!
Jeff
A Festool purchase -- in some mysterious way -- often leads to a kind of Festool fanaticism. To see what I mean, check out the Festool user forum on Yahoo. I asked a few questions and raised some issues over there, and felt their hot wrath descend upon me. I think you will be as happy as a pig in the mud with that saw. I just hope it doesn't turn you into a "Festool crazy."Actually, I applaud what Festool and some of the other Germans (e.g. Fein, Metabo) are doing in the tool market. Some of us have been whining for years about the general declining quality of tools -- usually attributed to the manufacturer's zeal to cut prices in order to get on the big box shelves. Festool has taken the opposite approach -- carefully designed tools with no compromises on quality. But they make you pay for it -- dearly...................********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Excellent choice Jeff! That saw will be the ultimate when you upgrade to the EZ for routing. Don't forget to order a saw base too. (I'm kidding... seriously <GRIN>)
What I really mean is congratulations. I really do wish I had that saw and vacuum for use with my EZ guides. The only saw I drool over more is the new Hilti. Now, if the high end saw makers would just give up their mediocre guide ambitions and start packaging their saws with the EZ guides we could all start working on solving the rest of the world's problems.
I'm convinced (dreaming) that one of these days someone will make a saw, of Festool or Hilti caliber, with the plate already notched for the EZ Guide so I don't have to loose the thickness of the EZ base from my cut depth. Now that's a tool that might be worth a premium to me!
Come to think of it, I wonder if there is enough of a market for a clever individual to develop a modified, direct replacement base for the PC 325, with a notch and anti-chip insert slots, that would give you that last 1/8" you need to cut a 2x with a 7 1/4" blade.
Dino...? What do you think? The EZ-PC-RB-CS! You've already fixed the dust collector... what's another tweak or two?
Every tool has its limits, just like every craftsman that uses them. My philosophy is that the less I limit myself with my tools the freer I am to overcome my own limitations while using those tools.
With some tools, like the Festool, their limitation is the fact that they are very narrowly focused to use one manufacturer's tools to do a limited number of guided functions. Many of their tools work very well on and off the guide, but as you have pointed out, some of their tools, like their high dollar specialty plunge saws, are limited to guide use only.
Even more restricting than their tools being limited to their guide, their guide is pretty much limited to use with their tools. To me, that's a far bigger limitation.
On the other end of the spectrum you have tools like the Mark V, who's excessive versatility is one of its worst limitations. A tool that tries to be all things to all woodworkers leaves you spending the majority of your time setting up and breaking down. Even worse, when it's repair time, every tool in your shop is down.
The EZ Smart overcomes both of those extremes. It is simply the most versatile way I know of to add precision control to just about every tool in the shop without limiting those tool's use in other applications. If you want to be able to pick a hand tool - even non-powered ones - out of your present or future line-up, lock it to a precision guide system, and force it to behave itself like a Lippizzaner Stallion, the EZ Smart is the guide system that will give you that versatility at a very reasonable price.
That price is worth mentioning again... If you find you do have a very narrowly focused and fairly common need to limit one of your tools to a specific guided function, an extra track set up with a dedicated jig, is pretty darn affordable, and you always have the option of expanding that tool's use again if your situation changes.
Why limit yourself with your tools, even quality tools, when there is a guide system on the market that gives you both maximum quality and maximum versatility at a much lower price?
Hey, how about enough of this? I signed on and the last 15 or so messages were mostly personal explaining why who said what, etc. I think all the points have been made on this thread about the products that can be made and we should let it drop until elsewhere (another thread) someone has real questions about the products themselves. This thread has certainly been exhaustive in helping anyone who wanted to know about the products( me particularly) to form an opinion; I know I have benefited but I hate to see respected names involved in a hassle. Thanks for all the advice.
I do think Dino deserves a break here; it's interesting that his approach seems to go over less well here than at Breaktime. There is quite a difference in the culture between these two forums.
But back to Festool.
I bought mine because I was about to make all the casings for a 3 story (old) house, where the upper two floors would be paint grade. This meant MDF and poplar, and I had what seemed like miles of MDF to cut into strips, since we were doing baseboards as well.
I bought the Festool in part because of the dust collection, since MDF is not only messy to cut, but the dust hanging in the air can be dangerous. I hooked the saw up to an old vac, and there was virtually no dust at all.
But because there was so much MDF, I wanted to be able to stack two sheets and cut them at the same time. You can't do this with the EZ unless you have a 8 1/4" CS, which I don't.
Finally, in my own cabinet work, I almost always use ply with a fiber core (because of its flatness), so good dust collection is a real plus here as well. I am going to try to cut final cabinet parts with the Festool alone. But I am dubious about being able to get absolutely uniform widths -- which by definition, is simple with a TS.
So I expect to make good use of the Festool.
Nonetheless, I am going to get the EZ system with its set-up for routering and a portable hand planer. But I like the capability of the saw to cut tapers -- which is something you run into a lot with renovations. We installed new windows in this house, for instance, and had to cut jamb extensions for each and every window; many of them were tapered from 5/8" to 3/8" over the height of the window. I cut all the tapers free-hand on my table saw, which is an adventure that I would not recommend for everyone. This is the kind of thing where Dino is right to use the word "dangerous". From what I have learned, such cuts are indeed "ez" -- and as a bonus, the cut quality is better.
So for me at least, I think the two systems can coexist quite nicely. I will keep the Festool for shop work, and get the EZ system for job site stuff -- which is how most of the folks at Breaktime seem to use it.
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I am new to woodworking forums at all. In the last several weeks, I have spent some time first on the woodnet forum and then a little bit here. It seems to me that these fall into two camps. The one that is productive and useful is when we all try to help each other solve problems. That could (and sometimes does) include tool decisions. But what would be most helpful to me (and I suspect others) is to hear from people who own and use BOTH systems -- a kind of personal tool "shootout" perspective.Seems to me that's what's missing here. There are teh Festool people and the EZ people and each one knows and thinks highly of the one he owns and uses. Is there anybody here who has and uses both and could compare them in terms of operation, features, ease of use, repeatability, etc.?If not, maybe one of the magazine writers could do a head-to-head comparison based on actual experience, so we would all have the benefit of it.I do get a little irrascible with people who just want to bash a product they don't own, and then personally bash the people who call them on it.Sorry to all that I lost my cool. I would be happy to see either a constructive (that is factual, not opinion) comparative discussion or an end to the thread.Dave
Many fine points Dave. FWIW, I used (but did not buy) the Festool for several jobs before deciding on the SmartGuide and have never regretted my decision. At another very well regarded forum, the founder of the forum did a comparison of his own and to the chagrin, no doubt, of the Festool folks decided "there simply was no comparison" insofar as the guide system was concerned. I agree with you though, the vitriol sometims is just incredible...
PaulB
I think you are asking for more than an internet forum can do. I pay a lot of attention to tool threads -- because I buy a lot of tools. And naturally, I want to buy the "best" tool in a particular category. No one user can buy/use every tool in the category, so his/her experience will inevitably be limited. Nonetheless, I like to read about the decision process a user has gone through before buying a specific tool, and then know what their experience with it has been like. Certainly, one needs to understand that some will need to justify or rationalize their decision by trumpeting the perceived virtues of that tool to all who will listen. But I take that as a very human trait, and discount it accordingly. After reading thousands of these threads, I know I develop certain perceptions of particular tools and brands with which I have had no direct experience, and I certainly don't mind reading the perceptions of others -- even if they are strident. You can search out magazine reviews that cover a tool category, but I find them generally to be of dubious value for me. They are usually cursory, and still based on the insights of a a single person. And I think the choices are sometimes unduly influenced by marketing pressures from the business side of the magazine. All in all, I get a lot of useful information from the stream of comments, and over the past few years of reading all this stuff (in forums), I think my tool purchases have been better informed and wiser than they were in years past. As an example, I always resisted the Fein Multimaster -- too gimmicky, too costly, and the blades are insanely expensive. But I guess the user fanatics wore me down, because I bought one recently. And I tell you, Dave, they were right........ The damn thing is endlessly useful and I am delighted to have one. So my message is ....... keep reading, soak up the information, and skip over the jarhead comments that seem to be an inescapable part of these discussions.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Wow, I can't believe there are so many posts about this. I went through chosing which system to buy in August. I had followed threads from breaktime and other places. I went with Dino and got the EZ guide system. I have bought two saws for my guide. The first was a PC Mag 324. I don't think I would call it a cheap saw, but if I bought a saw for what the festool cost(yes, I know it comes with guide) I would expect my festool to look better in castings and such than the PC Mag. I got the EZ Guide to Rip and size 2000BF of 12 foot long 1x cypress. The cuts I got with my setup were great. I could not have done this in my small shop with my table saw. I could have done it with a festool saw. I then bid to make 16 door jambs from 2x cypress and trim old doors to fit. I bought an 8 1/4 Dewalt to do this with. I also got very good cuts with this saw.
I don't do many sheetgood cuts, but the system is put down on the mark and that is where it cuts. I am able to square and measure so my cuts are right on the mark.
I have played with hooking up the bosch planer, but could not get the bevel right to bevel the doors with this guide. ( Maybe I get a little more time.)
I bought the freedom package plus one more rail, extra set of clamps. So far I have spent about $660. I don't need to buy a vac(I have fein). I didn't really need to buy a new saw(I had old makita), but with what I've spent I've been very pleased with my output. I don't think the saw and guide took an hour to get together. Yes, it came from maybe four different stores, but everytime I had a question--Dino answered the phone and talked me through it.
I'm sure I could have bought the big festool and spent about the same.
We've been down this road before!
It's really not fair to set up a "one versus the other" type scenario. While there is obvious overlap in circular saw functions, Festool and EZ Smart are operating in different realms in many ways.
Festool manufactures a vast system of power tools; EZ Smart manufactures a cutting guide system. You could use the EZ Smart guides with a Festool plunge saw.
This is not a war!
Banyan Tree,
Your remarks to Nikkiwood are less than truthful. You forget that he posted a copy of your message on this forum. An apology on your part would be in order.
Also, I would like to see you make more accurate posts about the EZ Smart System. These links would help you to understand it better.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/EZ-Smart-tablesaw
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/EZ-Mortise-with-limit-stops
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/sliding-Fence-Square
Thanks
Burt
Burt
Edited 4/6/2006 10:56 pm ET by Burts
Burts,
This is an open-and-shut case. I did not ban Nikkiwood from my group. I did exactly what I said in my last message, and if you look at the copy of my message that Nikkiwood quoted some time back, you'll see what I mean.What happened here is that Nikkiwood began exaggerating the situation, and I decided to take the high road for a while and simply not respond. But it seemed Nikkiwood's wording kept getting more and more exaggerated as time went on. When he wrote that I "kicked him out" of my group, which is completely false, I decided it was time to set the record straight.The fact is, I did not kick him out of my group. His posting privileges have not been controlled in the least. Nikkiwood knows it.If anyone owes anyone an apology, it's Nikkiwood, who said I did something I did not do, plain and simple. But I don't expect apologies in online forums, from Nikiwood or anyone else!Regarding your other points about "more accurate posts about the EZ Smart System," I don't see what you want from me on this matter. I don't have anything bad to say about Eurekazone, and I don't engage in the bad blood some people exhibit on this matter.
Edited 4/7/2006 8:58 am ET by BanyanTree
robert1,
As I've mentioned, I wasn't even involved until Nikkiwood decided to post his lies. Now, if you think lies are an intelligent discussion, then I guess I did in fact "suffocate" it.
robert1,
That's where your opinion comes from -- what Jeff Heath said? Do you always make a habit of judging something entirely from what someone else tells you? With absolutely no first-hand knowldge of the Festool group, you declare a set of conclusions and interpretations about what it is and what it isn't.
The group has about 1,200 members, a lot of whom openly question Festool. A majority of the members are still thinking about the tools and don't yet own a single one. Far from "championing" me as their leader, I've been openly challenged numerous times, and so has the company. So, once again, your simplistic observations based on absolute lack of actual experience are trashed as you quickly go from ignorant assumption ("chorus of simpletons championing you as their great leader") to ignorant interpretations based on those assumptions ("To me it sounds like a support group") without grasping one dot of fact.
Your calling members of the group "simpletons" is astounding. But wait, Jeff Heath says the group is boring, so therefore the members must be simpletons.
Like all Internet forums, when I started the owners group, there was no "chorus" of anybody! I had no idea who would join and what would happen. I just started it for fun, to see what would happen, because I liked the tools myself. Little by little, people joined and decided that the forum discussions, and the other members, are helpful. It continues to grow because people find it more useful as time goes on.
But you'll go on believing what you want regardless of the facts.
Edited 5/5/2006 8:14 am ET by BanyanTree
I have grown so weary of arguing in circles with Schenker, that I have just stopped.
Some people are worth the effort, and some are not. For me, Schenker is in the latter camp.
He needs to get a better grip, to put it politely, but no amount of cajoling among us knotheads will help him move in that direction.
I have long supported his right to say whatever he wants around here, and I used to find some pleasure in taking him on. But anymore, I find him somewhere between pathetic and useless.
Now, if all runs true to course, my post will unleash a stream of invective from Schenker, and he will whine that I have spread "lies" about him. And he might even be able to goad me into, once again, offering up the the supporting evidence for our tiff at "his" Festool Owners Group.
Then Berger will delete this thread, and we will have all wasted a lot of time talking in circles -- once again.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Merrily we roll along, roll along, roll along,
Merrily we roll along,
AARRGGHHHHHH
nikkiwood,Perhaps you need a lesson in geometry.
Our arguments are not circles. They are straight lines. You posted lies. I corrected them. That upset you, so you tried to make it sound as if you didn't say what you said.
I don't need evidence (as you put it) of what happened with you at the Festool group. It's recorded in the Yahoo software. In other words -- facts. Most likely, that wouldn't be enough for you or the Grizzly Brigade. You base your conclusions on opinions and what other people say, and support each other in this.
Now THAT sounds like a support group!
Edited 5/2/2006 1:22 pm ET by BanyanTree
Berger will delete this thread and we will all have wasted a lot of time talking in circles.
Seems to me that a lot of time is wasted talking in circles whether Berger deletes this thread or not -- unless one purely loves arguing. Rarely is someone convinced that he is wrong and changes his mind in an argument. You have probably hit a particularly difficult one. Why don't you you spend the time in helping us less knowledgeable woodworking enthusiasts. If you take this as a criticism, rest assured that I criticize myself just as much.
tinkerer2,
It is certainly a waste of time to argue like this, and once the war begins it doesn't matter much who started it. However, I was not even addressing Nikkiwood or robert1 until they decided to take aim at me. If they had continued discussing the topic of the discussion, rather than turn it into one about their personal feelings about me, there would have been no battle.Just so we know how the discussion began to degrade.
All right, so you admit that you're basing your opinion of the Festool group on someone else's words, without any actual knowledge. I think it's obvious why this is a problem, but if you don't get it, well...
But the main point is, you are just plain incorrect. The people in the group are not "simpletons," they don't "champion me," and whatever else you wrote in your last post. How your opinion of my history here Knots has anything to do with the content of my Festool group is a mystery. But you seem to have great confidence in your self-justified assertions, spoken proudly and without basis in fact.
My assertion about your skills has to do with your labeling of my forum as a support group, and the people in it as "simpletons." But nice touch conjuring up the deceased in your defense. You should run for political office, if you haven't already.
Just so I am not accused of being the one to start something here, let's keep in mind that I was not addressing you in this discussion until you popped in with your irrelevant insults and assertions about my forum. Let's also keep in mind that I was not even part of this discussion at all until Nikkiwood chose to post lies about me.
It's interesting. For people who want so much to see me go away, you sure choose to post a lot of messages about me and to me.
Oh, but maybe you disagree that you are posting messages directed at me. You probably think that you don't have to read every message you post to prove that you don't actually post messages to me.
Edited 5/5/2006 11:09 pm ET by BanyanTree
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Quickstep,
Just in case you are still following this discussion...
Festool and EZ Smart can work together very nicely, so I think it's a mistake to view this as one "versus" the other. The best system combines both. Better to see it as creating a cutting system that gives you the the best of each one.
I agree with the person who said that this kind of cutting system is the wave of the future. The guide rails are getting better and better all the time. At the same time, the tools and dust collection that ride on the rails are also getting better. Taken together, they will likely replace the table saw in more and more ways.
They won't eliminate the table saw, but they will de-emphasize that tool, which I think is a good thing. I've already gone down this path in my own shop, and I'm excited about the future.
He took his vorpal sword in hand:
Long time the manxome foe he sought --
So rested he by the Tumtum tree,
And stood awhile in thought.And, as in uffish thought he stood,
The Jabberwock, with eyes of flame,
Came whiffling through the tulgey wood,
And burbled as it came!Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
When you've got nothing to actually say, it's best to spend your time simply derailing a thread.
"When you've got nothing to actually say"
No sh!t, why dont you take a bit of your own advice.
Your incesant droan about how you are just replying to the lies that are besmerching your reputation are getting old, maybe try the old, "sticks and stones...." method and see if that dont give you a little piece of mind.
Or, tell us about the drill press, either way, your call.
Doug
Doug,
I don't remember writing anything to you in this discussion. Have you noticed that the subject of this discussion is "Festool versus EZ Smart"? I was posting about that very subject when a couple of others turned it into a referendum on personal attributes and a slathering of irrelevant Lewis Carroll quotes. Then you popped in to add to the irrelevancies and drag in an old Grizzly discussion.
Edited 5/5/2006 11:05 pm ET by BanyanTree
Matt
In spite of some of your shortcommings you do seam bright enough to realize that a public forum will elicit posts/messages from unsolicited members.
I have been a member of this particular forum since the inception. I've been reading your posts for a long time and felt compelled to respond, you have the right to put me on ignore if you dont like what I'm saying. I can explain how to do so if you need help.
For the most part I read your posts with the sole purpose of getting a cheap laugh, you seldom disapoint me.
Doug
DougU,
You can respond all you want. And you seem to be a reasonable guy. So I'll ask you this: do you have anything to say about Festool or EZ Smart Guide? You know, the subject of this discussion? Or are you here along with robert1 and Glaucon simply to contribute interference?
Edited 5/5/2006 11:06 pm ET by BanyanTree
Matthew,
There are a couple of fundamental differences that people need to understand about Festool/EZ.
The Festool Guide system was designed and is being marketed as a supplement to the table saw. On the other hand the EZ Smart was designed and is being market as a replacement for the table saw. The added capabilities that the EZ has in being able to safely do narrow cuts is significant.
As for your comment about replacing table saws, I invite you to visit the EZ Forum and read about people that are selling their table saw and replacing it with the EZ Smart. I can agree with your statement only to a point. I don't think the guided systems will ever totally replace the table saw but within the next couple of years, table saw sells will begin to see a decline as the guided systems move in.
Just one other thing, Matt, I'm just trying to share experience and thoughts - not start a fight.
Burt
P. S. The EZ is universal. The festool equipment works well with it.
Edited 5/3/2006 11:19 pm ET by Burts
Burts,
No disagreements from me on this! I know you're not trying to start a fight. Actually, I think it's important for people to know that there really isn't a reason for a fight on this. That's been my point all along in this discussion.I envision better and better guide-rail systems, combining what you call the "universal system" like EZ with the elegant cutting/routing options available from Festool.I agree that the guided systems won't entirely replace a table saw. Even though I use my Festool system extensively, I still utilize my table saw. However, all I need is a benchtop unit (I use the Ridgid). Because I have the Festool system, I don't need the table saw for crosscutting, dadoing, or for breaking down full 4x8 sheets. I mostly use the table saw now just for repetitive rips on moderately sized pieces of wood. And I know that even that function can often be done with a guide system today.I look forward to seeing what the engineers at both EZ Smart and Festool come up with in the years ahead!
Burts,You mentioned an EZ Smart Guide Forum. Can you privide the web address?Mike
Mike,
Burts can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe he is referring to the EurekaZone forum on Sawmill Creek.Here's a link:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/index.php?s=2910c8e53f327f6e8e3cdc72ba95af83&
Re:Here's a link:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/index.php?s=2910c8e53f327f6e8e3cdc72ba95af83&Got it. Thanks.
Here is the link to the EZ forum:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/forumdisplay.php?f=26
robert1,
You and your supporters have learned to cut and paste! Very good!
And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.
Glaucon (with apologies to LC)
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 5/3/2006 8:46 pm ET by Glaucon
robert1,
As a final nail in the coffin of your assertions about the Festool group: Burts, who has posted here about EZ Smart, happens to be one of the forum members.
I'll let him respond to your statement that he's part of "a chorus of simpletons championing me as their great leader." My guess is Burts does not think of himself as a simpleton!
This is what happens when you spout about things you don't know, rather than think.
As Glaucon has quipped:
"If you don't think too good, then don't think too much..."
Edited 5/4/2006 8:49 am ET by BanyanTree
Tweedledum and Tweedledee
Agreed to have a battle;
For Tweedledum said Tweedledee
Had spoiled his nice new rattle.
Just then flew down a monstrous crow,
As black as a tar-barrel;
Which frightened both the heroes so,
They quite forgot their quarrel.'
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
<"Now, now Banyan. Don't you know that the deliberate "outing" of an undercover operative is always fraught with hazard?">
Like... MattSchenker or BanyanTree or Tweedledumb?
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Hi Guys.
I was invited to the FOG by Matthew.
For whatever that may be worth...
YCF Dino
Eurekazone.
PS. If nothing is wrong with this thread, the title should be removed or change it to something else?
whatever.....
This is a hard question.
But....
Burt is a (THE) eurekazone fanatic and he posted links about EZ Smart on the FOG without any problems.
Some Festool users are regulars in our Forum without any problems.
I think the nature of the invitation was good.
YCF Dino
Hmmmm.
Many posts here and elsewhere are being deleted...
and someone seems to have gone missing...
I wonder what is going on...
"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes -- and ships -- and sealing-wax --
Of cabbages -- and kings --
And why the sea is boiling hot --
And whether pigs have wings."
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
"Well! I've often seen a cat without a grin," thought Alice; "but a grin without a cat! It's the most curious thing I ever saw in all my life!"
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Glaucon and robert1,
Much to the dismay of some people, I think that Festool and EZ are entering a new era of cooperation and mutual support. Now we all know that there are exceptions to any rule. Many of us have realized that the best system is a "hybrid" system.
For years most of us have used "hybrid systems". Prior to the days of the guided systems, I had numerous brands of tools in my shop and I bet that everyone else did too. Why should the guided systems be any different?
I've fought more battles with Festool supporters than most but I have also posted in the Festool Owners Forum (I do own some Festool Equipment). Several Members of Fog also post regularly in the EZ forum.
Recently, I watched FOG go thru a very difficult period. Matthew offered positive leadership and I feel that FOG is better for the growing pains it experienced.
Burt
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