I read this quote today pertaining to planes; “there is a belief, propagated by some major names, that the smoothing plane should be followed by final scraping. I remain clueless as to the wisdom of this, seems like saying: “after washing the windows rub the glass with an oily rag”.”
I would be interested in hearing what everyone thinks about these words of wisdom……
Replies
The only purpose of the scraper would be to get rid of any ridges left by the plane. If the scraper is sharp it should be doing the same cutting action as the plane, so the oily-rag analogy is not really appropriate. The point is that to plane and then scrape the entire surface is just duplication of effort. That's how I see it, anyway.
Good question, JR.
The LN website says "a planed surface is always preferable to a scraped surface". The impression I got was that the scraper was just used to clean up tearout.
I am equally baffled by the articles which refer to sanding after planing. Why would you want to?
Regards,
Dan
"The LN website says 'a planed surface is always preferable to a scraped surface'. The impression I got was that the scraper was just used to clean up tearout."
Then I stand corrected. I thought the cutting action of the scraper was the same as a plane.
I finish with a razor blade.
As long as the surface looks good, you did the right thing.
I use scrapers where a bench plane won't leave a satisfactory surface. Scrapers generally perform better on figured surfaces and surfaces with lots of grain direction changes.....sandpaper is a last resort if the scraper won't do.
give your smoother iron a bit of a radius on the corners of the blades. Take as light a cut as you can muster. shouldn't need any more tooling after that.
JR,
Along with the others, I use a scraper only on places a plane doesn't work well. My reason is that I don't find a scraped surface to be as good as a planed surface--close, but not quite as good. Perhaps that is what the author meant.
Alan
perhaps your right on that Alan, though I will say that "experts" like Frank Klauz advocate scraping & sanding after hand planing....
"experts" like Frank Klauz advocate scraping & sanding after hand planing....
That's the part I don't get. Why would you plane, then sand? I mean, if I'm going to sand it anyway, why bother hand-planing it in the first place? I've even seen recommendations to sand after scraping, which made absolutely no sense to me. What am I missing?
I use a scraper for the final step after sanding. If the wood is amenable to hand planing, then no subsequent step is necessary or desirable - the planed surface is best. But I'm not that good with a plane yet, so usually I can only do that on wood with a really consistent grain. If the plane leaves tearout etc, I might as well sand instead and then finish with a scraper. "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
the reason why I started this thread was because the smooth/scrap/sand process just seemed redundant and counterproductive, so I wanted to see what others thought about this subject......and I am sure the debate will continue
Maybe you get a flatter surface by going from a planed or scraped surface directly to fine grit sandpaper. Whenever I use sandpaper through all the grits, it tends to round over corners and dish out flats. Slightly less so with a sanding block.
Still, I don't see why to use sandpaper at all if tearout is not a problem. Has anyone out there ever had a bad experience skipping the sanding?
Dan
Albion, I'm with Frank Klausz on this issue. Sure, I was taught that polishing straight off the plane was good-- perhaps ideal, but the realities of producing furniture for a living don't allow the time for such a slow approach.
It would be nice to have the luxury, but if you want, or need to make a living at this game it's a non starter except in rare instances or a poorly prepared surface is acceptable. Slainte.RJFurniture
the only drawback i find with sandpaper is the grain looks duller when compared to a nicely smoothed surface.....
jr, I agree, the difference can be told, but commercial reality generally means getting out the sandpaper. There really just isn't the time to fiddle for hours or days with planes getting the surface just so. Commercial customers want it now and at an economical price.
It's seldom that a solid wood plank top can be planed to perfection easily. The grain changes direction all over the place and inevitably there's tear out every couple of inches or so requiring a change in the angle of attack, so you just have to resort to what's quick and effective and generally acceptable in a commercial situation.
I can envisage a circumstance where a $10,000 job using abrasives could easily turn into a $13,000 job if pre-polishing preparation could only employ hand planes and scrapers.
Certain woods renowned for their particularly difficult interlocked grain like like quarter sawn zebrano, utile, sapele, etc., I won't even bother getting the plane out to if I want to make a profit on a job. It's power sanding all the way, and to hell with the chatoyance, clarity of figure, etc.. Money in the bank pays bills, and sadly that kind of integrity in certain circumstances is a mill stone around the neck. Slainte.RJFurniture
you are right to say that in the commercial world time is money, I guess what I was asking would have to do with those lucky people who build for their own enjoyment, or are able to work for people who dont care what it costs (if there is such clientel) but want the look.....
if you were going to build a piece for yourself, excluding the important issue of time & money, what would you do????
I'd go the handplane route for preference because it does give the nicest look, jr, and as long as it works easily enough I'll go for it. But I've been whacking wood for so long now that I don't need to prove to myself or anyone else I can do it. I already know I can, but I also know it's often not worth it, so I won't if it's more trouble than it's worth to me.
I'd almost certainly get out the sandpaper, accept the compromise and move on to the next job. Slainte.RJFurniture
Now I'm confused. Are you saying you handplane and then sand? Or are you saying you sand after using the power planer, and skip the handplaning?
Mark, I generally power plane-- joint and thicknes-- (do the joinery) then hand plane, scrape and sand prior to polishing. It's a fair compromise if making a profit is important. Sometimes I'll hand sand the whole job and at other times I power sand followed by a bit of hand sanding
If the stuff is especially liable to tearing out-- radial sawn zebrano, etc., as mentioned in my most recent reply to jr, my preferred method is to joint flat, run through the thicknesser leaving well fat of the final required size (because it all tears out to hell usually,) then power sand in an oscillating belt sander, random orbit sand and finally hand sand. Lastly I polish and the job's done.
Given no pressure to produce for profit, I'll happily handplane such timbers as this, but all planing will be done across the grain. Scraping which would almost certainly be done will follow the grain, but I'll still almost certainly get out a bit 150 and 180 grit paper before polishing.
It's not worth sanding finer than 180-220 grit with open pored woods like zebrano, oak, ash, etc., as the open grain is bigger than the grit size. I very occasionally go as fine as 280 grit on fine grained woods like cherry and maple, but generally stop at a 220 grit level. Sanding finer than that for most wood species is a complete waste of time. You get the surface so burnished on close grained woods there's no adequate key left for some film forming polishes to attach to, especially varnishes of one sort or another. Slainte.RJFurniture
Albion, I failed to answer part of your question. This part-- "I mean, if I'm going to sand it anyway, why bother hand-planing it in the first place?"
If you are prepping for polishing and your pieces have been through machine planers the visible surface scalloping evident across the grain is easily removed by sanding alone. But the nature of the planing machines actions means that each cut of the rotating knives usually not only cuts a chip off, but that the knife somewhat hammers down onto the surface of the wood.
The result is that the hammering effect depresses the grain some way below the surface beyond the woods modulus of elasticity. In other words the grain is crushed below the surface and can't spring back to its original shape. Analogously, if you gently tap the surface of a board with a hammer the wood fibres compress slightly but they'll spring back to their original shape. If you whack the board hard with the hammer you'll leave a round dent-- the wood has been deformed beyond it's ability to spring back.
Blunt planing machines have a greater hammering effect than sharp planers. Hand planes are often the most efficient tools for removing a layer of wood to a point below the compressed fibres than sanding. If the compressed fibres caused by machine planing aren't fully removed they can reveal themselves as disfiguring slight ridges or ripples after the polish is applied.
These ridges aren't apparent in the bare wood, and only show up after polishing-- or can be revealed by wetting with white (mineral) spirits, etc.. Oscillating fixed machine belt sanders are more efficient at removing the deeper deformation described than hand held electric sanders, but these oscillating fixed belt machines can also slightly deform the timber if used carelessly, or if there are stray coarse grits, or a worn belt is used. This can show up as a zig-zag stripe along the length of the wood. Fixed drum sanders can also leave tell-tale hammer marks where the belt whacks the wood at the point where it is fixed to the drum, and the wrapping of the belt itself may also leave something to be desired meaning the wrapped drum is not a perfect cylinder.
Anyway, for large jobs planer marks can be removed with sanding alone if the sanding is carried out deep enough, and machine sanding is followed by final handsanding to remove the machine sanding marks. But hand planes can do the job very efficiently and are often a good choice particularly on smaller jobs. Slainte.
RJFurniture
Edited 5/21/2004 6:24 pm ET by Sgian Dubh
Don't know if I'm repeating....
but along the lines with a machine planer not leaving a very pretty final surface....
Klaus and other masters of his generation grew up and were trained to used planes for roughing and dimensioning....unlike current normites. perhaps a difference in Klaus' take is historical. A lot of us today look at a smoother and think...final surfacing AFTER machine planing.
Klaus was likely trained to look at hand planes for dimensioning stock and as has already been stated...turn to sandpaper for final smoothing because it is faster and so will decrease your overhead and increase your efficiency.
This would be similar to some comments I've seen about his dovetailing video. Some say his dovetails are way too sloppy...fine. But he does this for a living. He cannot spend more than 10 or 15 minutes to cut the joint. And so it also follows that he'd likely prefer sanding for 5 minutes rather than having to carefully sharpen, set and plane a surface smooth which might take 30 minutes.
I'm quite sure that someone with more of a "purist" philosophy such as Krenov looks at hand planes quite differently...he looks at them from the standpoint of the smoother leaving the BEST possible finish. Economics of woodworking are not much of a concern for Krenov....
To each their own : )Tim
on the neverending quest for wood.
Edited 5/21/2004 9:03 pm ET by tsproul
Sgian, thanks very much for that explanation. I now understand why those little lines show up sometimes after I thought I'd sanded out all the scallops from the thicknesser. (I don't have this problem with stock I prepare myself, only when using material that was thicknessed by the supplier.)
I'm still a little unclear, though, on when/why you use hand planes... and whether you ever use scrapers at all. In one post you seemed to say that hand planing is too slow to be economically feasible, then in another post you say sometimes it's the best way to remove the crushed grain... but if the latter is true, then after planing, aren't you done? Why would you sand after hand planing?
My usual routine is to thickness, join, chamfer, sand to 180 or 220, then finish. If I get tearout with the planer, I'll thickness with a drum sander; it's slow but dependable, and the marks it leaves are pretty quickly removed with a ROS. For special projects I will scrape before finishing. I hardly ever hand plane a surface; just too risky, especially in the ash and QS oak that I'm usually hacking at, and the scraper leaves a beautiful surface (especially on the white oak). "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Albion, the answer requires a judgement call where I try to balance the factors of the scale of the job, the price point of the quote, the timescale available, and the nature of the wood.
If the job is very large-- lots of panels for a commercial customer in a tricky wood like zebrano as discussed before that has to be delivered and installed next week for a tight price, I use the power sanding route. It's quite predictable time wise and cost wise even if the end result doesn't have that perfect shimmer it is of a commercially acceptable standard..
At the other end of the scale a four or six seater dining table in cherry or a small cabinet for a private client with a very high price on it, and a generous allowance for hand work will get the handplane treatment. It's quite a long process because the plane is set quite heavy to start with to remove those planer ripples. If all goes well I might be able to polish straight over the plane marks. In practice being able to do that is rare unless the time allowance is extremely generous, and I expect to use scrapers after the planing followed by a bit of sanding.
It's true that you can get a beautiful surface using handplanes and scrapers, but it is very time consuming and wee things can go wrong. You can pick up a bit of stray wood with a plane sole, corner of mouth opening, etc., and drag it across the surface leaving a score. The scraper hook usually develops a bit of a nick in use or something, and there's another wee ridge or scratch to remove.
When these things happen as they almost always do you have a choice-- resharpen the planes and scrapers and have another go, or just grab a bit of sandpaper to quickly finish the job. I grab the sandpaper.
The final hand planing route prior to polishing goes a lot quicker if machine planes never were used in the process because that means the wood was probably squared with handplanes, therefore there can't be any machine planer ripples to remove.
Squaring wood with handplanes takes longer than squaring with power planes generally. I won't square large volumes of wood with hand planes because it's not usually economically viable. I can do it. I've got the tools, and if I was doing woodworking purely for fun, maybe I'd use the method from time to time for a small project, but in reality there's other woodworking techniques I prefer get on with than doing a mass of grunt work, ha, ha. Slainte. RJFurniture
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