Quick question, someone will know the answer:
… is there a metalworkers’ equivalent of FWW, or a metalworkers’ version of knots?
Malcolm
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
The only one I know of is artmetal.com. They have a forum that has some great advice, but it is not real active. Nevertheless, you can use the search option and find opinions on a lot of issues.
I do metalsmithing as well so have accumultated a fair number of metalworking sites. One way to gauge the popularity of something is to see how many magazines are on the big box newstand and the only one on craft type metal work is Metalsmith Magazine which is found under http://www.snagmetalsmith.org
There's tons of other metal related but the list is extremely broad and gets into blacksmithing, sheet metal, casting, jewelry, architectural fittings, machine shop, body work and such.
http://www.metalshapers.org is kind of a mix of things.
I had a link for a metalworking guy who had a tv show that was really interesting but lost the link somewhere.
http://www.artmetal.com isn't that active but there are links to follow so in no time you can build up a sizable list. Metalwork is too broad compared to woodwork which is broken down in simpler terms of craft such as furniture, turning, carving, etc or building houses, timberframing, etc.
http://www.tinmantech.com/index.html
http://www.sculpture.org
http://www.metalsmith.org
http://www.ganoksin.com/site-map.htm
Search the listed sites for other links and google as well
Malcolm,
Here is the forum I use, it is by the publisher of Home Shop Machinist.
http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/index.php? is a pretty good one as well.
What kind of metal working do you want to pursue? Artsy kind of crafts, sheet metal work, machine shop type stuff? When you initially aked I was kind of thinking more furniture related as making your own hardware and perhaps some machine, tool modifications. Metal working is a great compliment to woodworking in many ways. Working with brass can be done with a lot of fundemental woodworking tools. Cuts excellently on a table or chop saw with a negative hook blade.
I did a lot of architectural jewelry, furniture hardware and such.
Starting with a Shepherd infill plane kit, Rick. If that works OK I'd like to try making small block planes from scratch - direct from plate without a kit.
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
http://home.xnet.com/~rcallen/kingshott.html
Then Kingshotts book on Making and Modifying tools would be right up your alley. Out of print but I found a copy on amazon awhile back. A google search will turn up other related info. http://www.woodcentral.com handtool forum is big on the topic of planes. There was a good article in HomeShop Machinist on souping up a kit plane that has a lot of interesting stuff. Check all the kit people for resources but the woodcentral has a lot of good links as well.
Your initial metalworking query was a bit broad. Clarifying a focal point is best.
> There was a good article in HomeShop Machinist on souping up a kit plane that has a lot of interesting stuff <
Can you point me to an on-line source for this Rick?
Malcolm
Another dumb question - what sort of bandsaw cuts metal? I've been watching Orange County Choppers on The Living Channel (ex satelite) and notice those guys cutting sheet steel with a bandsaw.
Malcolm
Re: Metal Cutting bandsaw - sheet goods.. There are horizontal and vertical and also horizontal/vertical. The vertical like you see on Monster Garage and OCC is one with a motor positioned so as to not allow the metal filings to fall inside or is sealed.
You can cut metal on any bandsaw with the right blade. A bi-metal hard back blade is the most common and you'll need at least 3 teeth in the material so your tooth count will be much higher than one used for wood. 10/14th is aggresive so most sheet metal cutters prefer at least an 18 or 20 and when they need to get aggressive they switch to a wavy blade.
If you want to cut sheet metal on your wood band saw and you are only doing it occasionally then just shield the motor from the tailings and you'll be fine.
WRT using a wood bandsaw to cut metal. Yes it can be done but in many/most circumstances it may not be practical or feasible. Using the proper blade is one thing, other things to consider:
Speed, metal saws need to run much slower than for wood. Running too fast will likely shear off the teeth on hard/tough materials
Using coolant/lube: except when cutting softer metals (brass), the use of a cutting oil is recommended to extend the life of the blade and to provide a smoother cut. Gets messy on a wood bandsaw...
Lastly, the filings/metaldust get imbedded in the rubber tires of the saw wheels, evntually ruining them and also showing up at the worst time when cutting wood. Metal bandsaws don't have rubber tires, blade runs on metal .
Not trying to be a wet blanket, just pointing out a couple things. YMMV.
Sharp, not a wet blanket at all. I gave details on this subject in post #23523.4 and others. It is the usual story: there always will be people who try to use the wrong tool to do a job.Philip Marcou
More info about using a wood bandsaw for metal: About ten years ago I converted a Delta 14incher to cut steel. I installed two jack shafts with belts, increased the diameter of the final drive pully, and decreased the size of the motor pully. The result was getting the blade speed down to about 300 fpm which is still fast for steel but seems to be OK. I use bimetal blades, usually 1/2 inch but sometimes 1/4 inch. The blades last a good long time and cut reasonably quickly. Metal "dust" goes everywhere and does stick into the tires but so far I haven't had any problems. Blades track as smoothly as they did when I used the machine for wood only. The only real problems are with the lightness of the machine. Things tend to go out of adjustment and get loose, mostly due to a lot of vibration. I still use the cool-block blade guides that were on it when I did the conversion. I don't worry about super adjustment of the guides with steel. Usually I'm cutting close to the line and cleaning up the cut on my stationary belt sander. Steel work is an integral part of a lot of my furniture thus the need for such a machine. I've often thought about getting a real metal vertical bandsaw but this services well enough for my relatively low production needs. Another way to go: There is a technique called friction cutting. Here, one uses a dull fine tooth blade running at wood cutting speeds. Push the steel into the blade, you gotta use quite a bit, but not too much pressure. The heat produced will carbonize the steel similiar to torch cutting. It can be exciting and fast cutting. I found that keeping a constant feed rate was very difficult and without it the "cut" will be lost. Yea there is a lot of hot stuff flying out of all this action....keep the fine wood well out of the action and don't try this barefoot!
NOT going to use my wood bandsaw to cut metal - even if I'd been seriously considerin g it, the posts above have well and truely put me off.
Not sure at this stage whether I'll be doing enough metal work to need a bandsaw, but if I do (the Shepherd A6 smoother kit will be the test) I'll spring for a dedicated metal saw.
What's the experience, by the way, with cutting with a angle grinder and a fine cutter wheel. The guy at my local engineering supplies was telling me yesterday about a mate of his who uses a 1mm (?) wheel to make some pretty heroic cuts in sheet steel.
With good hand skills, what can you do with a small angle grinder? The guys on OCC seem to use one quite a lot!
I'm thinking about cutting dovetails in sheet steel and in brass/bronze, as well as cutting parts from solid and sheet metal.
Malcolm
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Malcolm, I have referred to those cutting wheels previously, as they were hitherto unknown to me.The guy is quite correct-those wheels are really really good. Used with a small (115mm or 125mm) angle grinder they cut as if they are going through butter-I used one for the first time when I cut up a power hack saw blade to make scrapers-the blade was about 4mm thick by 75mm wide, and ofcourse very hard.My hacksaws are taking a back seat at this stage.
Philip Marcou
I second that about the abrasive wheels. NOT a replacement for a metal bandsaw (are you crazy? the mo tools the betta) but as another option in your toolbox. Or two options, depending on your addiction. In addition to the 4~5" grinder, you can use a baby dremel with a 1~ 1.5 inch blade for very delicate work (like cutting dovetails for a metal plane)...
Abrasive wheels spinning at 30,000 rpm are an amazing thing. Their cut is not a shearing or slicing action. They abrade the material, effectively burning it, so that even the hardest metal like titanium or even hardened steel cut be cut.
OK, enough for me, already drifted too far for this woodworking forum ;-)
There was another thing I should have pointed out-they do not generate alot of heat-useful when making blades etc.Philip Marcou
Jeez, when will this end!
I thought I had almost everything I 'needed'!
I looked at a small Bosch angle grinder yesterday, on my way home from talking to the guy at the engineering supplies place, and figured it was small and light enough to fit in the hand easily and be manipulated like a hand tool.
In my collection of junk was a pretty rough casting for a 1in shoulder plane with a slightly skewed mouth. No imprint on the casting, and it was rusty/pitted and there were no other parts. It was designed to be stuffed (infilled).
So. Thinking about my Norris A6 kit already in the mail ex Canada, I did some work on that rough old casting yesterday. Sanded off the rust, infilled with lignum vitae, made a wedge and did some shaping (shamfering, accentuating the curves, fairing in the infill - you know the stuff). It was just supposed to be a practice job, but I like the look of this thing enough to want to make an iron. I'm going to cut down an old British cast steel blade - also from my collection of junk - to make a spade-shaped iron.
I should be finishing the leg stand for my tool chest! Actually, I really should be finishing a job for a customer in Singapore! But the few hours just disappeared.
Oh dear
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
It does not end-it is the same as woodworking , only the machines and some tools cost more-surely you are not going to be happy FILING and HACKSAWING when you should be milling, turning , surfacing , grinding, shaping, buffing, tapping , and the rest????
I am pondering the idea of making a low angle smoother with some 1/4 gauge plate stock I have left over from knife making days. Dove tailed body, borrowed Veritas blade and my own mechanism (Norrisified) and my version of handles-relatively easy and no need for backing iron, and I have the Veritas l/a jack to use as a 'gauge".
I haven't done d/t's in metal before, but I've got a leg up-I do have a milling machine and d/t cutters, and my smaller band saw is modified to cut steel. What do you say?Philip Marcou
I haven't done metal dovetails before either, but am confident I will be able to.
Seems to me if one can cold-rivet OK, one should be able pein a set of compound dovetails (and I once did some rivets).
Philip - I think tool-making is something you should be taking seriously.
My research over the past couple of weeks has told me:
there are a surpisingly large number of people making craft hand tools
their order books are pretty full
there's a market for collector-standard hand-made tools, and the market is growing (but - key point, is quite discerning)
This market is driven (to some extent) by the price escalation and increasing scarcity of quality antique tools. Look at the prices of collector-grade woodworking tools in the UK for example - there's not much of any value available for less than $US1,000
This is a genuinly international market - independent of location
So, what am I saying? If you've got design and technical (and business) skills, and the gear, there's an emerging international market for really good traditional tools - but it's really an 'art' market, so while maybe a bit fickle, it well suits the modern western economies - items are easily transportable, heritage-related, skills-based, easily displayed, and have an element of novelty.
Final point - if you are seriously thinking about making a low angle plane, and your craft skill is as good as it appears in your on-line material, can I buy one?
Malcolm http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Yes Malcolm, I hear what you are saying. I think I should address the woodworking problem to the full extent first, and then develop some tool line of some sort later. Also ,at the moment I have gear to one offs-to do something viable I need better capacity.
I want to make the plane as a prototype-straight forward enough,but a batch of them is another story. Anyway I'll start with the plane.
Can you buy one-by all means , when I have one that I believe is of the right standard.(There is hope yet-I made almost 200 hunting knives , and all I have is some pictures...)Philip Marcou
What do you know about the availability of damascus steel in New Zealand?
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Damascus steel-it is forged up blacksmith style-so in N.Z and anywhere else one has to find a blacksmith who knows the score.
There is a knifemaker on the way to Whitianga-will look up his contact details later-he should know about Damascus.Philip Marcou
Thanks
My tinkering this weekend has been interesting! I do quite like what I've been able to do with a rusty shoulder plane casting. When I've cut down an iron I'll post a photo of the complete tool - probably next weekend. If I can use an angle grinder and a fine wheel to cut close to a line, and fairly quickly, without excess heating, then I can see fabrication being realistic.
I suspect that soldering/brazing/welding might be somewhere down that slippery slope, however.
There's a craftsman jeweller just up the hill from me who fabricates silver and stainless steel ... I'll give him a call during the week and see if he'll show me some stuff.
Tools is one thing I'm suddenly keen on (I can't get that Holtey stainless steel plane out of my mind's eye), but I've often thought about hardware - hinges, straps, catches and the like. Inlays (the reverse of infilling).
Ah well. Back to work tomorrow. And I was going to catch up this weekend!
Cheers
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
I suggest you ask that jeweller to instruct you on silver soldering-much easier and sronger to do this on that plate at the mouth....Philip Marcou
I bought the back issues from the St James Bay Tool Co. Home Shop Machinist July/August 1999, Sept/Oct, Nov/Dec
http://www.villagepress.com/homeshop/ St james Bay has a website as well. Not all info is on the web but I did give you good leads with the last links. I typically find all my info with searches and follow links to other sites. As far as metal bandsaws...check the metal working catalogs and compare the specs to wood bandsaws. Much slower rpms and imports horizontal/vertical models are availabel real cheap.
Thanks Rick - I've cut and pasted all the feedback you and others have provided to a Word document, and downloaded some stuff from the links, and I now have a mini text book! Aint the web great - go Google!
Malcolm (at work)
http://www.xmission.com/%7Ejry/ww/tools/a13/a13.html
It's for a smoother but the info can be adapted for a block plane. Consider brass as you can cut it on a table saw very nicely with a negative hook blade. You can do it all with basic woodworking tools and with the addition of files. Learning to silver braze with oxy-acetylene would be a big addition. The knowledge is handy to make hardware and furniture jewelry.
Rick and Malcolm, yes that is one fine book by Jim Kingshott.I'm sure one can still get it one way or the other-Malcolm the ISBN # is 0946819327 if that helps-he shows one how to make some superb planes, and there are wanderous photos.
He also wrote a excellent book on sharpening-without any "scarey" stuff....How to get the right results quickly . Some of the myths debunked....I have not read a better book.
Wow, the link on making a dove tailed plane ....Philip Marcou
Edited 10/14/2005 4:16 am by philip
Kingshott book not available on Amazon. I'll do a wider search!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Try using http://www.addall.com
half.com had it for around $50 US. Amazon is limited in it's book sources. I buy a lot of books on the web and have found most of what I'm looking for. Lots of places will turn up things but having them in stock is another story. Sometimes using the isbn # turns up results you can't get with title or author. Buying internationally is so much easier these days. I remember having to go to the bank and getting international cashiers checks and by the time the check got there the money value changed. Just bought a case for a notebook computer cover from Australia and got it in 9 days compared to the three months it used to take for international purchases.
Edited 10/14/2005 5:17 am ET by RickL
Kingshott's book on Making and Modifying Tools is still available but getting pricey as it's out of print. Cambium books is supposed to be in the process of reissuing some of the titles. http://www.cambiumbooks.com
Just bought a copy of the Kingshott book at Amazon uk. 11 pounds plus shipping, new!
Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Good for you. That's where I got my copy from. Sometimes searches work in strange ways.
Bought myself a 5inch engineers vice and a collection of files at my local engineering supply company today.
In the far corner of my shop is/was an old wood box full of files of every size and shape that I've very nearly thrown out many times (I think I bought most of them at a workshop auction in the UK years ago). This morning I resurrected them, cleaned them up, put on a set of handles, and loaded them into a space in my recently acquired tool chest.
With the set of big files and rasps I usually have out in the shop, and the new ones, I find I have about 30 files, many looking in good shape!
Bring on the metal!
Malcolm
http://www.macpherson.co.nz
Edited 10/14/2005 7:56 pm ET by Malcolm
You won't regret it. Mine has a sticker on the back saying 15.95 pounds-it was some time ago .Philip Marcou
Malcolm
Below is a great forum. I enjoy metal work and have participated in the one below for some time. I find the members to be very knowledgeable, very nice, and very helpful. And most important, the seem to all have fun.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi
Grits
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled