Replies

1. 
   Alan | Jun 21, 2002 01:12am | #1

   Karen,

   An oil finish on a desk top wouldn't be my first choice.  Oil, as I'm sure you know, builds the finish from the inside out.  That means there is little between the wood and the various scratch and stain causing things out in the big bad world.

   For a desk top I would use gloss interior varnish--at minimum--and then rub it out to the finish I want.  Better would be a "bar top" varnish.

   Ordinary interior gloss varnish has none of the softeners that turn the finish to semi-gloss, egg-shell gloss, or matte.  (Softeners are what make  a varnish less than glossy, so the finish isn't quite as tough as gloss.)  But you can rub out the gloss varnish to any of those textures.  (You have to rub out any varnish anyway.)

   Bar top varnish is formulated to leave a very hard, tough finish.  It is, for all practical purposes, impervious to water and most solvents.  Bar top's extra-hard surface also reduces the chances of its denting or scratching.

   Alan

1. 
   kai | Jun 21, 2002 04:21am | #2

   Interior gloss or bar top varnish as a finish for the Bartley Salem Secretary Desk - Can you give me the brand name of  these options? Also, since I will be using them on cherry will they have a color in them or are they clear?  I would like for the cherry to darken and the reproduction kit to take on an antique type patina. Are they easily rubbed on and can they have wax on top after they have dried?

   Thanks, Kai

1. 
   Alan | Jun 22, 2002 12:19am | #6

   Kai

   To answer your questions:  I really don't have a favorite brand of varnish.  Behlens is an excellent choice, as is McClosky's (sp?).

   Cherry will darken over time regardless of what you do.

   Varnish is not clear.  It generally has an amber cast to it.  I think that is in its favor as it warms up whatever color is beneath it.

   Varnish can be difficult to apply.  You should get the best brush you can afford (I use a badger brush for all my varnish).  Three coats, with a scuff sanding between, is about the minimum.  Take your time, work carefully and it will turn out just fine.

   To rub out varnish you first wet sand, to level the top coat and get rid of the little bumps, up to about 400 grit wet & dry paper.  Use plain water with just a drop or two of soap in it to lubricate the last couple grits.  Then you buff it with 0000 steel wool and wool lube.  You can stop there if you like the look, or you can go on to rub it out with pumice and rottenstone with paraffin oil as a lubricant.  (I usually stop after rubbing it out with the steel wool.)

   Wax on top of varnish looks great.  be sure to use a good paste wax (not automobile wax) and buff it out as long as you can stand it.

   Alan

1. 
   Gretchen | Jun 22, 2002 01:20am | #10

   Varnish can be difficult to apply.  You should get the best brush you can afford (I use a badger brush for all my varnish).  Three coats, with a scuff sanding between, is about the minimum.  Take your time, work carefully and it will turn out just fine

   Apply whatever kind of varnish you decide upon using the 50/50 wipe on method.  It yields a beautiful even finish that is virtually foolproof.  Brushing varnish particularly on vertical surfaces can be troublesome for the "amateur"--that's me too.Gretchen

1. 
   RSRose | Jun 22, 2002 02:08am | #12

   Gretchen,

   In your 50/50 wipe-on varnish, what do you use as the solvent in addition to the varnish? Mineral spirits, turpentine? Do you think that the final hardness of your spar varinsh finish has anything to do with the 50/50 mixture versus letting undiluted spar harden? That is, how much additional polymerization is happening as a result of the action of the additional solvent?

   My experience with spar also has been that it remains soft to the point of penetration by a determined thumbnail, forever. That's because spar is designed never to completely harden. In its primary use in a marine environment, it will have to be replaced, sooner rather than later. Re-varnishing is a way of life for exposed wood on a boat. But if spar hardens to such a degree by your method of application, I want to try that on a piece of furniture.

   I have been applying poly/tung (about 50/50) rub/wipe/scrub-on mixtures for years with very good results. The finishes are beautiful and some of the pieces are more than 20 years old with no need for refinishing. I have always thought that the success of the finish was because the poly is so hard. They have never chipped. With your comments, however, I'm wondering if what really has happened is that the poly has been made more flexible (longer) by the oil in the mixture. What do you think?

   Rich

   Edited 6/21/2002 7:33:42 PM ET by Rich Rose

2. 
   Gretchen | Jun 22, 2002 02:51pm | #14

   Rich, I really don't know.  It would seem you have made a "long oil" by adding that much tung oil to it.  I think if it works and the finish is beautiful and durable then it is a good finish.  As for what diluent I use,  I used to use turpentine and now use mineral spirits.  I have not used naphtha because the spirits dry fast enough for me. And as I said, I just prefer non-poly varnish for the look.  Gretchen

3. 
   RSRose | Jun 22, 2002 05:03pm | #16

   Gretchen,

   Thanks. Having experienced a boat owner's second happiest day - I sold my boat years ago - I haven't used spar varnish since. I think I'll try a wiping spar as you suggest for some chests I'm making.

   Rich

2. 
   Paul_Snyder | Jun 21, 2002 05:55am | #3

   Kai;

   There are few ways to color cherry without blotching. Using a gel stain is the best choice for a hand applied finish. If you apply an oil-base product to the bare wood, you will get a blotching effect - even if you only apply a boiled linseed oil without added coloring. Applying an oil-base varnish will have the same results.

   If you have been getting good results with the gel stain you used in the past, stick with it. However, it seems very unusual to apply more than one coat of stain. The first coat contains binders that hold the stain to the wood and seals the wood. Additional coats will sit on top of the sealed surface.

   If you need to obtain a darker color from your stain, your best solution would be to use a darker color and apply only one coat. If Wood Kote or Bartleys don't have a suitable color that will work in a single coat, contact woodfinishsupply.com and have them make the stain for you. They can make a gel stain any color you like.

   There are a number of good varnishes - Woodcraft has Behlen's Rockhard Table Top Varnish and woodfinishingsupplies.com (not the same link as earlier) has Waterlox. Either of these varnishes would be a good choice on a high wear surface.

   If you finish the pieces before assembly, you may find it much easier.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   Gretchen | Jun 21, 2002 03:35pm | #4

   If you have been getting good results with the gel stain you used in the past, stick with it. However, it seems very unusual to apply more than one coat of stain. The first coat contains binders that hold the stain to the wood and seals the wood. Additional coats will sit on top of the sealed surfaceIf you need to obtain a darker color from your stain, your best solution would be to use a darker color and apply only one coat

   I thought this was the "good" point of gel stains--that you can add layers of stain until you get the color you want.  And the first layer does seal so the blotching common to many woods does not occur--sort of like putting a spit coat of shellac down before staining. Can someone clarify this for me--and maybe others?  I am the first to admit I don't use stains so I want to learn.

   After the gel stain has satisfied your color need I suggest a wipe-on varnish finish. I use it successfully for even table and desk tops for excellent protection. I personally prefer non-poly satin spar varnish.  I wipe on at least 8 coats for table tops.  It gives a beautiful deep warm finish.  Be sure to keep the varnish stirred so that the dulling elements are kept in suspension.  Cherry will naturally darken.Gretchen

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Jun 22, 2002 12:23am | #7

   Gretchen;

   The good point of gel stains is that they are a thick stain (if you get a good one) mixed in a thixotropic (sp?) agent that has the consistency of jello until it's worked onto the wood surface. This characteristic allows the gel stain to color the wood without penetrating beyond the immediate surface so that no blotching occurs. A good gel stain is the best hand applied coloring technique for woods prone to blotching (with the exception of hard maple).

   Oil base stains contain a binder that "glues" the pigments to the wood so that they remain on the wood after application. This binder seals the wood to varying degrees. If you add multiple layers of the stain to the wood, each subsequent coat begins to adhere to the previous coat instead of the wood. In doing this, you have created a film over the wood - essentially the first layer(s) of a film finish. The problem with this is that the binders in the stain were never intended to act as a film forming finish and as a result they form a fairly "weak" film. Any finish you build over the multiple layers of stain will only be as strong as the first layer. This is the reason that no more than two coats of sanding sealer are recommended in a finish schedule. Although specifically intended for use as the inital layer in a film finish, too much sanding sealer weakens the final film.

   To "layer" colors on wood, you can use dyes in multiple layers, colored pore filler, stains that do not seal the wood effectively (the binders in solvent stains seal the wood FAR less than oil stains), or use glazes, toners, and shading. When used in combination, you can color wood dramatically while obscuring the grain very little.

   On the subject of varnish, the least durable of all varnishes is one that contains a high percentage of oil. This type varnish is known as a long oil varnish, or more commonly as spar or marine varnish. Spar varnish is designed for exterior use where greater flexibility is needed to allow for greater wood movement. The higher percentage of oil also enhances its water resistance. A much more durable varnish for interior use is one that contains minimal oil (short oil) and phenolic resins. Behlen's Rockhard table top varnish is one brand that fits this description. Phenolic resin varnishes are not very common. The most common short oil varnishes contain alkyd resins. Although a bit less durable than phenolic resins, the alkyd resins will yellow less over a long period of time (decades) are are cheaper to produce. Alkyd varnishes that have been modified to contain a urethane resin are known as an "uralkyd" varnish, commonly known as polyurethane. Polyurethane is the most durable of all the varnishes and a good quality of polyurethane contains top quality resins that do not result in the "plastic" look everyone is worried about. If you purchase a good quality short oil varnish and a good quality polyurethane and apply them side by side on the same board using the same technique, you will not be able to tell them apart unless you perform some tests for durability. They will both have the same appearance on the wood but the uralkyd resins will provide greater scratch protection.

   In my opinion, the best source of this kind of information can be found in Bob Flexner's book "Understanding Wood Finishing." I haven't read Jeff Jewitt's "Great Wood Finishes" but have been told it is also a good source. I can say that Bob Flexner's book has SO much more information than I could ever post that it is an invaluable resource.

   Hope this helps.

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   Gretchen | Jun 22, 2002 01:29am | #11

    

   Gretchen;The good point of gel stains is that they are a thick stain (if you get a good one) mixed in a thixotropic (sp?) agent that has the consistency of jello until it's worked onto the wood surface.

   Did you answer my question of whether gel stains can be layered upon each other?  You said oil stains cannot and you mentioned many other kinds of stains.  What about gel which is really the original question of the person building this furniture.

   I commented upon long and short oil varnishes in another post on this thread.  I have Flexner's book--GREAT reference and he explains these very well. 

   I am refinishing antiques--do not need to color the wood because I try to preserve the underlying "patina" by treating the wood with respect by not raising the grain and having to sand down to the splinters.  When you deal with new wood,   stains are necessary and probably desirable.  We are doing different things but it doesn't mean you can't learn that there are other finishes that are time tested and also "work".Gretchen

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Jun 22, 2002 02:17am | #13

   Gretchen;

   To avoid all the fuss in the future, why don't you add a clarifying statement to your recommendation to use an exterior product for an interior use? You could say something like, "Although it's unconventional, I like to use a spar varnish for... because I like it." That way others won't assume you don't know better and try to point out the "mistake." You can make it clear up front that you do know the "correct" material to use, but prefer to go your own way. Also, the person that asked the original question will understand that your recommendations are in conflict with conventional practice and can then make an informed decision regarding your advice. Unless, of course, the ensuing debate is your favorite part of your recommendation.

   You ask, "Did you answer my question of whether gel stains can be layered upon each other?" I guess I didn't.

   The binder in gel stains forms a film that seals the wood. Repeated applications of the gel stain builds that film. The film developed by the binder in a gel stain is weaker than a durable film forming finish like varnish. The weakness of the gel stain film will be the "weakest link" in the finish.

   So to answer your question - yes, you can apply multiple coats of a gel stain at the risk of weakening the finish. Instead of applying multiple coats of the gel stain (or any wiping stain), it would be far less work to get a stain that did the job in a single application.

   Have a good weekend!Paul

   F'burg, VA

2. 
   Gretchen | Jun 22, 2002 02:57pm | #15

   To avoid all the fuss in the future, why don't you add a clarifying statement to your recommendation to use an exterior product for an interior use

   I didn't know I was "breaking a rule"!!  Why all the fuss!! There is nothing poisonous in it.

   Unless, of course, the ensuing debate is your favorite part of your recommendation.

   That is uncalled for. 

   Gretchen

3. 
   Alan | Jun 22, 2002 05:36pm | #17

   Gretchen,

   I don't intend to get into dueling resume's.  Suffice to say that I, too, have very long and very full experience in finishing and refinishing--including the use of spar varnish, and very likely any other finish you can name.  Besides, 'long experience' doesn't mean 'competence.'  So let's stick to the issues.

   From some of your answers to others who seconded my question of your using spar varnish indoors you say (paraphrasing; let me know if this is not a fair paraphrase) in effect:  "it's spar varnish or poly and I don't like poly."

   The choice is not spar varnish or poly.  There are indoor varnishes that are not poly.  Are you using 'spar varnish' to mean 'non-poly, oil based varnish'?

   As you can tell I, and quite a few others, are mystified by your choice of spar varnish instead of an indoor, furniture grade varnish.  I'm equally mystified by your descriptions of the properties of the finish on furniture.  Can it be that you are using the wrong name for the product you use?

   Alan

4. 
   Gretchen | Jun 22, 2002 07:55pm | #18

   paraphrasing; let me know if this is not a fair paraphrase) in effect:  "it's spar varnish or poly and I don't like poly."

   No it is not a fair paraphrase.  I don't like poly is a fair paraphrase.

   You know, I don't particularly care if you like what I use or not.  You can use what you want and add it to your resume.  I can use what I want--I do not have or need a resume for the purposes I refinish.  I use -- see if you can get this--marine spar varnish, non-poly, satin finish.  It is hard to find--you have to go to a real store to get it and ask for it by name. 

   Why is everyone SO threatened by an idea that is new to them.  It's been around a long time--it just seems it didn't filter down.

   Gretchen

   Edited 6/22/2002 12:59:28 PM ET by GRETCHEN50

5. 
   sschefer | Jun 22, 2002 08:12pm | #19

   First off, to clear the air... You are right about real Marine Spar Varnish. I have been able to find it at most commercial paint stores or they will order it for me but they certainly know what it is when I ask for it. ACE Hardware handed me a can of Min-Wax Helmsman Urethane when I asked if they had it.

   Interestingly though, I was just warned about using Varnish over Watco Oils. The person is a professional finisher and does some beautiful work so I tend to trust him. His view was that in about 5 years the Varnish will start showing signs of lifting because the oil never really dries and is pushing up from beneath the Varnish above. His recommendation was to use Watco Wax finish instead. He said that a once a year re-application was much better than having to strip and refinish which makes a lot of sense to me.

   I didn't ask him about other oil finsihes but I'll see him today and see what he says. I always thought it was an ok practice.

   By the way, I took his advice and achieved a very nice finish on the piece. A lot more work granted but the result was what I was after from the begining.Steve - in Northern California

6. 
   Gretchen | Jun 23, 2002 03:16am | #20

   Interestingly though, I was just warned about using Varnish over Watco Oils. The person is a professional finisher and does some beautiful work so I tend to trust him. His view was that in about 5 years the Varnish will start showing signs of lifting because the oil never really dries

   Good information and I believe it. I did a little antique maple table and a barrister's bookcase for our son with Watco, and under limited time.  It just kept "seeping" "stuff" so I just left it.  They do however live in Denver so I suspect it is really dry by now!  I need to check it out.Gretchen

2. 
   Alan | Jun 22, 2002 12:32am | #8

   Gretchen,

   You use spar varnish on indoor furniture pieces!!???  Why?

   You said this on another post that I read.  I didn't ask then.  I thought you had made a mistake.  But now I guess you didn't.

   As I'm sure you know, spar varnish remains soft (so it can move with the great amount of seasonal movement of the wood you get when wood is exposed to the weather every day of the year).  That makes it too soft for furniture, or for practically any indoor use.  Spar varnish is too prone to dents, dings and abrasion; you can peel it up with your fingernail even after it has cured as much as it's going to cure.

   You must have a secret.  C'mon, share.  What is it?

   Alan

1. 
   Gretchen | Jun 22, 2002 01:18am | #9

   You said this on another post that I read.  I didn't ask then.  I thought you had made a mistake.  But now I guess you didn't. You must have a secret.  C'mon, share.  What is it?

   No secret.  There are a couple of schools of thought--and I will say I have been doing this for 40 years of refinishing antiques (for my own use).  My sister taught me and it is from a book by Ralph Parsons Kinney.  I just don't think there is ONE way to do finishing and so few people talk about anything but poly I thought I would add mine.

   Varnish was used a long time before polyurethanes were invented--just a point to ponder.

   If the finish is "soft" and this is REALLY relative it does have more flexibility.  Therefore when JR. hits it with his cup it doesn't chip--it "bends".   Yes, marine is long oil and flexible.  Poly is short oil and brittle.

   I have tables, boxes, 6 board chests, chairs, desks all refinished with this method of 50/50 wiped on (from RPK's book--he also added BLO to some finishes).  I have not refinished any of them.  I did have a table refinished by an excellent person for our son's wedding gift.  Its top needs refinishing eventually--it's chipping. Poly.

   The main point I like in my pieces is the warmth, depth of finish. It doesn't "look" like a finish sitting on top of a piece of wood.  Try it--you might just like it.

   That makes it too soft for furniture, or for practically any indoor use.  Spar varnish is too prone to dents, dings and abrasion; you can peel it up with your fingernail even after it has cured as much as it's going to cure

   This is just absolutely NOT true.  It is hard as a rock when cured.  As I said, "softness" is very relative.  If you didn't apply it correctly maybe that is your experience--not mine.Gretchen

2. 
   Gretchen | Jun 21, 2002 03:41pm | #5

   If you have been getting good results with the gel stain you used in the past, stick with it. However, it seems very unusual to apply more than one coat of stain. The first coat contains binders that hold the stain to the wood and seals the wood. Additional coats will sit on top of the sealed surface. If you need to obtain a darker color from your stain, your best solution would be to use a darker color and apply only one coat.

   I thought the "good" point of using gel stains was that you could add layers of stain until you reached the color you wanted--not an all or none proposition. The first layer does seal and stop the blotching common to many woods. Then layers of color do sit on the top.  Could someone confirm or explain this?  I am the first to say I don't use stains so I do want to learn.

   After you get the color you want (cherry will darken) I suggest a 50/50 wipe on of varnish. I prefer non-poly satin marine spar varnish, about 8 coats for table or desk tops.  It provides a beautiful deep warm finish that is extremely durable.  Be sure to keep the varnish stirred so that the dulling agents in satin varnish remain in suspension.

   Gretchen

   Edited 6/21/2002 12:25:02 PM ET by GRETCHEN50