Replies

1. 
   Rich14 | Feb 20, 2007 01:59am | #1

   eweber,

   The folks over at the Breaktime forum deal with kitchen cabinet finishing a lot. You may get more responses there. An oil finish is never going to give you enough protection in an environment such as a kitchen where there is moisture, heat and cleaning solutions used all the time. While oil is very easy to apply, you will be forever reapplying it. That will become a nightmare. You need a durable finish such as a catalyzed varnish or lacquer or a non catalyzed lacquer such as CAB-Acrylic. You can brush on a standard or poly varnish, but you will be doing much more level sanding with brushing than when spraying. In fact, I'm sure the kitchen cabinet pros over at Breaktime will advise you that if you can't spray, you'll not have a final look that will please you.

   Rich

1. 
   eweber2 | Feb 20, 2007 02:10am | #2

   Thanks, for the info. I will check it out.

   I should have been more clear but my top coat is combinaison of oil and urethan resin from General Finish (GF Arm-R-Seal  Urethane Topcoat)which should make it more durable.

   Edited 2/19/2007 6:30 pm ET by eweber2

2. 
   oldusty | Feb 20, 2007 05:46pm | #3

   eweber2 ,

               One way to get the dark deep color you may want on Cherry is to apply a toner , before you use the stain . The toner darkens the base color of the wood , then will allow the stain to darken the wood even more .

    Check with your local paint store or wherever you buy your finishing products.

                 good  luck       dusty

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 20, 2007 06:20pm | #4

   Toner is a top coat finish with dye or pigment added.  It is only applied over an already sealed finish. 

   From the description of the intended use, it sounds like oldusty meant to suggest using a dye.  Dye can go directly on the bare wood, and can achieve whatever overall darkness is desired, with a relatively small tendency toward blotching.  The dye can be lightly sealed and a stain applied (which will actually be functioning as a kind of toner.)  This tends to "deepen" the finish.  So if you really must darken the cherry, dye is the way to go at the start. 

   All that said, coloring cherry very dark right at the beginning isn't really a very good idea.  The underlying wood (at least the heart wood) will continue to darken.  If you try to use the dark dye/stain to avoid leaving the sapwood in the scrap bin in a year or two you may be disappointed as the contrast reappears.  A light dye to pull the colors together, coupled with as much exterior "suntanning" before installation, will give a nicely rich cherry tone that will have room to continue to become more and more mellow and rich as the wood continues to darken over the years. 

1. 
   eweber2 | Feb 20, 2007 06:53pm | #5

   Thanks for the advices. I whish the wife could wait couple years ;)

   Any recommendation on dye that I can used with oil based product ?

    

2. 
   oldusty | Feb 20, 2007 07:12pm | #6

   Hi Steve ,

               You are certainly correct that Cherry will continue to mellow or darken regardless of the way you finish it .

         We may have a different use of terminology or interpretation here , when color is added to top coats I have always referred to this as shading . Often times the finish becomes less transparent and more opaque and even milky and can obscure grain , because the coat is no longer clear .

      I have used wood toner on bare Cherry to gain the desired degree of darkness , then stained sealed and top coated with lacquer with the desired results . The toner I used was an alcohol or solvent type product and was thin like water .

     As you know on some woods such as Maple and sometimes Cherry a dye stain alone may not always give the desired results .

       I respect you as a finishing guru and enjoy and learn from many of your posts , but I think we have to agree that almost always there is more than one way of doing things .

                regards          dusty

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 20, 2007 07:50pm | #7

   I think we differ only on terminology, not on matters of substance. 

   I distinquish between shading and toning mostly by what is done with the colored finish.  It's shading (or glaze), when it is used to emphasize corners, etc., and toner when an even color change is sought.  As I use the term, toners always have binders--a sealing material either lacquer, shellac or varnish, and by definition go on sealed wood.  The same material on bare or unsealed wood I would call a stain.   

   Dyes don't have binders since they aren't needed and therefore don't seal the wood.  I find dyes can add dark colors even on dense woods such as maple, often when a pigmented stain either blotches or does not penetrate sufficiently to give a dark color without just painting on pigment and obscuring the grain.  Pigmented stain or toners can certainly add depth and complexity to the colors that dye alone can miss. 

1. 
   eweber2 | Feb 20, 2007 08:50pm | #8

   Ok here is what I am going to try next.

   Dye the whole thing with a redish undertone on bare wood.

   Seal

   Apply dark wipe-on pigment stain (hopefully I should be able to wipe it off easily if the color is not good at this stage)

   Finish with urethane

   What kind of dye should I use? Most dye I found seems to be either water soluble or alchool soluble. Any particular method recommended for sealing which is compatible with my oil stain (and dye)?

   As for the sap wood problem, should I selectively dye the sapwood first to a darker color than the heartwood to compensate in the long term ? 

   Good thing I have lots of scrap...

    

    

    

    

    

2. 
   beachfarm | Feb 21, 2007 01:48am | #9

   I don't post on Breaktime (one web forum is enough for me) but building custom cabinetry is how I pay my mortgage. A couple of things:1. Plys and hardwood do NOT take dyes/stains equally. This will certainly be true with Cherry if you sand above 220. 320 polishes solid Cherry, which will inhibit absorption- you'll end up with a very light face frame (solid wood) and a very dark carcass (ply). Solution: Seal the wood, then, if you must, use a toner. Skip the stain and dyes.2. For a toner, look into Mohawk finishes (they have a website). Easy to use, wide range of colors, and a number of formulations. The last kitchen I did called for Cordovan Cherry. I sprayed a wash coat of Duravar (cat lac) as a sealer then two coats of Duravar with a Mohawk toner. The result was uniform color across the solid Cherry doors, Cherry ply boxes, and large panels like a Cherry fridge cab and a floor to ceiling pantry cab.3. Sap wood? Unless you plan to incorporate the sap wood into your design plan, get rid of it. It's cheaper and easier to buy more Cherry stock than it is to hide sap wood. (Assuming you can't bury the sap wood behind face frames, etc.)Good luck.

3. 
   woodhacker | Feb 21, 2007 02:32am | #10

   To get an "aged cherry" color I use a lye solution, followed by a thin coat of linseed oil, and then topped with a polyurethane finish. When the lye (regular old "Red Devil" drain cleaner) solution (about a tablespoon per quart of water) is applied, the cherry will quickly assume a rich dark color. Then it will dry and look like crap. Give it a light sanding at this point. I sometimes apply a second light wiping of the lye solution. Then apply a thin coat of Linseed oil and the rich color will bounce back and remain. Then top coat with the finish of your choice that's compatible with a base of linseed oil after the oil has dried for a couple of days.

   Sapwood will take on very little color from the lye solution, so you'll want to use only heartwood. Even so, there will be some variation in color from one board to the next, or within a given board. You're working with wood, not plastic. If you want absolutely uniform color such as one of the guys who does furniture projects on a well-known television program, then this is not the technique to use.

   One point to watch carefully if you're going to use this technique is to NOT allow any contamination such as glue on the surface to be finished. If there's any glue in the surface it will become immediately obvious when the rest of the wood reacts with the lye. I apply masking tape to the surface next to a joint that's going to be glued so that any squeeze out will end up on the tape where it can dry and be removed. I've had no experience with cherry veneer, so I can't speak to how the lye approach will work with that material. Experiment with scrap material first before tackling your kitchen cabinets.

   If you'd like I can email some pictures. It just so happens I'm building some cherry kitchen cabinets at this time, and I'm using lye for the coloring agent.

    

1. 
   eweber2 | Feb 21, 2007 03:21am | #11

   Thanks woodhacker. Pictures would be welcome.

   By the way, how toxic is the lye solution ? Is that an outdoor project only  or good ventilation is enough ?

1. 
   woodhacker | Feb 21, 2007 03:51am | #12

   I've never noticed any fumes or odor or effects from using lye indoors. Eye protection and durable protective gloves are highly recommended. Read the warning label on the lye container and use your own judgement as to whether this is something you want to use indoors in your environment.  Be aware that the water will heat up quite a bit when the lye is added to it.

   There was an article about using lye as a coloring agent in FWW about twenty years ago (where I first learned of the technique). A search of the FWW index should be able to identify the issue. The technique also works on apple, by the way.

4. 
   user-83153 | Feb 21, 2007 08:03am | #13

     I think some are overlooking the no spray restriction that eweber2 stated in the OP. Also being overlooked is a tried and true schedule for cherry that will both darken the wood and make it look great now and in the future.

     How about a generous coat of BLO allowed to cure for a few days followed by a brushed or wiped coat or two of dark garnet shellac. Then apply your poly if you must. I would personally use a phenolic resin varnish made with tung oil (read waterlox original, satin or gloss), that would darken the cherry even more and is very durable.

     I just used this schedule minus the waterlox on some cherry picture frames that were very light colored and the color looked wonderful afterwards. If the missus wants one of the really dark looks that are trendy now, well, you probably used the wrong wood. Tell her it will be out of fashion in two years anyway and you aren't going to ruin cherry with it. :)

     You will be disappointed if you try to use a toner and you don't spray it. Unless you are a wizard with a brush it will streak. You could try a glaze after the wood has been sealed with a coat of shellac.

                  Rob

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/21/2007 8:22 am ET by Rob A.

5. 
   carlmccarty | Feb 21, 2007 08:11pm | #14

   I am in the middle of the exact same project and have started the finish on the upper cabinets. I am using a gel stain to darken the cherry and achieve a uniform tone. I use a wood conditioner on the door panels (plywood) and the gel stain straight onto the solid lumber. I'm then giving the cabinets two coats of water based poly. So far it looks good.

   On a side note, Fine Homebuilding last year published a compilation of kitchen articles which had a story on building cabinets with inset doors without the big hassle of fitting the doors. There are also several other helpful articles in there.

1. 
   eweber2 | Feb 21, 2007 08:25pm | #15

   Can you give me the reference of the products you use ? I have been trying different stains and just can't find the right color.

   Thanks

2. 
   user-83153 | Feb 21, 2007 08:46pm | #16

   If you are using a waterborne poly on kitchen cabinets be very careful with cleaners and steam. Any product with ammonia in it will make you sorry real fast and repeated exposure to steam from a dishwasher or boiling water will cause waterbornes to lose adhesion as well.

        Rob

1. 
   carlmccarty | Feb 21, 2007 11:21pm | #17

   THanks, Rob.
   This is the first time I've heard of this. I've already finished the top cabinets, so it's a little to late to back out of the water based now.
   We'll keep this in mind once we are actually in the kitchen.

1. 
   woodheart | Feb 22, 2007 02:13am | #18

   I've tried a couple of different methods for getting that aged cherry look. Although I consider myself a complete amateur, I've been able to achieve pretty durable results with two different techniques.The first is to use a product called "Old Growth" that I got from Woodworker's Supply. It's a two part chemical dye that instantly changes the wood to an aged cherry appearance. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find the product lately, and so I've had to rely on the second method which I am quite pleased with:After sanding I seal the wood with Garnet shellac, and then apply a mix of TransTint dye ( 50:50 mix of Brown Mahogany and Red Mahogany ). After that I wipe on about six coats of Polyurethane Varnish by from Minwax, with appropriate sanding in between coats.The finish definitely looks like aged cherry and the multiple coats of varnish give the protection. For a big project like kitchen cabinets, I would probably substitute a sprayed lacquer or varnish.