Hi, me again! Okay, here’s the problem.
I have a great old maple table I picked up at an estate sale several years ago. I use it in my teeny-tiny kitchen as a work surface; it comes in contact with food and food prep daily, although I never cut anything on it. I have cutting boards for that. But I do roll dough, prepare dishes, and do various other sorts of food prep on it, and because of that, it also gets cleaned often using everything from hot soapy water to spray cleansers, to bleach water, etc., depending on what I’ve been doing.
ANYWAY – when I bought it I stripped it down and put several thin coats of polyurethane on it (water-based), sanding lightly between coats. 6 coats, to be exact. This on the advice of a woodworker I know.
But – after only 4 years of use, the finish is shot. And I do mean SHOT. I need to sand this baby down and do something else. Thing is, what? Obviously, poly isn’t going to work.
So – any suggestions? Food-grade? Now – I have a maple cutting board that has no finish on it, and all I do is rub it with food-grade mineral oil every so often, and wash with hot soapy water after use, drying immediately. Would that work for this table, or not, since it gets a lot more use than my cutting board?
If anyone has ANY suggestions I’d be very, very grateful. I love this old table – it is sturdy and built well and has a lot of character. And it fits my kitchen perfectly and is the perfect height for me. I want to give it a finish that will allow me to continue using it, but still protect it – from me! (G)
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
Replies
Mineral oil can make it look nice but most of it will be scrubbed out when you scrub the table. In my opinion the table doesn't need any finish.
No finish? Really? But - but - will the table be damaged in the long run? I thought wood surfaces NEEDED some kind of finish?
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Poly is on the tougher end of the film finishes that you can apply easily, so if that isn't working, you are down to oil, wax, or nothing. Mineral oil gets mentioned a lot, but I have no idea why, when there are better alternatives. It gets washed off almost instantly, leaves greasy residue on everything it touches, and provides very little protection anyway.
Vegetable oils are supposed to have a tendency to turn rancid; they polymerize very slowly, and the protection is fairly poor regardless. Olive oil may be a little better. Pure polymerized linseed oil (not the hardware store "boiled" stuff--check the MSDS for why...) cures well and quickly, but the protection is still not great--water will go right through a dozen or more coats. Pure tung oil is non-toxic when cured (again, check the MSDS to make sure of what you are getting), and much better in terms of water/stain resistance. It also takes a long time to cure, but is otherwise fine. The pick of the oils for food surfaces is walnut. A little less protection than tung, but it looks great (less matte than tung fully cured) you can use the surfaces immediately after application. Instead of the MSDS, check the back of the bottle for recipes....
Beeswax will add some protection and sheen, but needs to be cut with something in order to get to a consistency that can be applied by hand. The most common solvent is turpentine--not exactly food safe, and not a smell I would want in my kitchen (and I drive the entire family out of the house with lutefisk every Christmas). Some of the commercial beeswax formulations are marketed as food-safe, or you can just carefully melt some in walnut oil in the microwave. It doesn't really dissolve, but the crystallized wax is fine enough that the soft paste can be easily buffed in by hand.
In any case, be sure to sand all of the poly off before anything else is done--good luck!
/jvs
"Tried & True" finish is the answer, food safe, durable, recoatable. Their version of Danish Oil, or the well-recommended Varnish Oil. Both are hand-rubbed... the latter so thick that it gives all-new meaning to the word "hand rub." The process slow. The results excellent.
Fine Woodworking, (issue #151 approx), had an excellent feature on this subject. It's worth chasing down. Lee Valley (and a few others) sell this specialized product. The product is made in Trumansburg NY. Jeff Jewitt's "homesteadfinishing" website is another resource, products and information.
Under the circumstances you describe I would leave it as is-- do as you do to your cutting board. No finish is going to stand up to being constantly whacked and washed. :o) It's maple, as many cutting boards are--close grained. If the poly looks bad, strip it and then just coat with mineral oil (NO other kind--turns sticky and perhaps rancid).
On the other hand you could strip and re-coat with poly, knowing you will probably have to do it again in a couple of years. However, just doing a table top isn't that difficult. I would use oil base poly for perhaps a more durable finish. Wipe on 8-10 coats of 50/50 varnish/mineral spirits. When there is no odor it is fully cured and food safe.
Well, you have found out that most waterborne poly finishes are not as tough as an oil based poly finish. Waterbornes do not stand up to cleaning chemicals over the long run. Some claim to be but .......
I would strip the current finish and then re-coat with a good oil based poly or with Behlen's Rockhard finish. Either of these should give you better service than a waterborne finish.
Waterborne finishes are fine for other uses but not for surfaces that will be frequently cleaned with cleaning chemicals.
Thank you, all of you, for your replies and advice. You all are really helpful! If you ever need cooking information, please feel free to visit CT anytime and look me up - I'll be happy to help if I can.
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Ditto Howie's comments re: water-based poly.
Sherwin Williams markets a specialized deep penetrating sealer called "Homoclad" (if my memory serves me correctly...) that is used to seal cutting boards. That might be an option. It doesn't leave a finish per se. It just seals off the wood from moisture leaving an unfinished look. Another option would be their Kemvar "M" or Kemvar "C", both of which are vinyl conversion varnishes. Sherwin Williams claims that both are their very best finishes for chemical resistance. This is supported by AWI (Architectural Woodworking Institute) which recommends catalyzed vinyl, which is what the two Kemvar's are, for finishing laboratory fixtures because it allegedly has the best chemical resistance of any finish. What I don't know is whether either Kemvar is rated for food service. All my reference books are at work. LOL
Regards,
Kevin
Biscuit,
There is something special about rolling dough on bare wood...it just comes out better...and then cover the dough with floor impregnated muslin to rise. Leave as is and add character to the top as you go....
BG - you are absolutely right. I really like using bare wood for rolling doughs - not sure why, but it seems to hold the flour better and the dough has a little traction to work with the rolling pin instead of against it. I find that it takes me a lot less time to roll something out when I roll it on a wooden surface. And with pastry dough (something high in butter content), you really want to roll something fast so the butter doesn't have a chance to start warming up.
Ah, but that discussion is for another forum! (G)
Kevin - thanks for that tip - I think I'll go to the Sherwin Williams store tomorrow and check out your suggestion. That might be just what I need.
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....next to the wood, I have a 31x31x3/4" slab of polished granite....what melting butter...lol
My wife has a dough board handed down to her that I just sanded down and refinished with mineral oil. I am sorry now that I didn't use walnut oil. I was told by a pastry chef that walnut oil is the only rhing you should finish a dough board with.
Dave in Pa.
Dave,
JVS also mentioned the fine qualities of Walnut oil for finish surfaces also...but I'm not so sure. In most things I have read Walnut oil needs to be refrigerated to avoid turning rancid...on the other hand, like linseed, rape and a few others, walnut is loaded with linolenic and lenolinic fatty acids which in addition to being very good for you, help kill germs. The old Linoleum floor helped control the growth of germs over a 2" above the floor area...if I'm remembering correctly.
Walnut is not supposed to turn rancid, however, It may be an issue for those with nut allergies(always something!).
Mark - another woodie who digs food or is it foodie who digs wood?
Okay - are we talking about the same type of walnut oil? Because I know for a fact that the walnut oil you buy for cooking (well, you don't actually cook with it - it's actually used in cold preparations and as a condiment) WILL turn rancid after time. All nut oils will with the exception of peanut oil - not sure why. That's why it's recommended that you buy it in small quantities and keep it in a cool place. Not to mention the fact that walnut oil is pretty expensive.
Perhaps we are talking about two different grades of walnut oil? One for finishing furniture and one for cooking?
View Image - Biscuit
I live with a gaggle of old english walnut trees. Every fall, we use our little davey to pick up 5 gallon buckets of walnuts and break them in the DaveBuilt. We separate the whole halves (a contradiction if there ever was one) from the pieces and bake with the whole halves.
When I have a salad bowl or stir fry fork turned or carved out, I crush a handful of walnut pieces in a turned olive wood (from the ranch) mortar and pestle and smear it on the wood. I wipe if off later, put it on the window sill, and let it harden. I repeat this for five or six days, then let it sit for a few more days. Then, I steel wool and buff out and the wood looks great.
Walnut oil is a "drying oil", but it's natural and not forumulated with driers so you have to accept the vagaries of a natural cure. (You must refrigerate it because it slowly cures in the bottle). It would seem to be harmless since it's natural, but so are ricin and botulism toxin.
I've never used it for anything large. It gives an oil finish, not a varnish (built up) finish, and doesn't hold up well. I use it for wood I cut here at home because it also comes from here!
Telemiketoo,
"I live with a gaggle of old english walnut trees"
Wow...what a visual I'm getting....straight out of 'Alice in Wonderland'...flamingo headed walnut trees watching as you harvest their limbs to produce eating implements for chinese food....."Oh my, the indignity of it all"....lol
You're almost right on. Don't forget that we have those rainbow skies here in the grand state of confusion.
Biscuit
I may be missing something here, but what about acid-cat or some industrial finish like that?
Unless of course your quite happy with raw timber.
Ben
ALL, I say ALL vegetable or nut oils WILL turn rancid if left long enough. Just don't use anything over the long run if you clean the board/table top all the time. Gretchen
Dead wrong.
Oils that cure (polymerize into a solid) resist bacteria (all of them, pretty well), fungal growth (varying degrees--harder oils better), water (varying degrees again; pure tung probably the best, linseed the worst, since it will pass water in vapor and liquid, no matter how thick or well-cured), and staining (see above).
Any finish applied improperly is going to be a mess. Thin coats of curing pure oils (as well as adulterated oils like borg boiled linseed) will cure fairly quickly. "Polymerized" oils cure more quickly, because the polymerization process is started during processing and cascades into a final cure when they hit oxygen, and they can only do this in thin coats.
Glopped on and left, any of them will turn into a film of sticky crud. Applying them properly--wiped on thin and let to cure completely before recoating--will give decent results with a whole bunch not in the "top 3" list. Even soy oil will cure eventually....
Walnut has a good combination of characteristics; decent water, stain, biology protection, looks great, cures fairly quickly, and you can pour it over spinach. I buy it in grocery stores with good turnover and have never seen it go rancid in 20 years of watching, including 7 years cooking professionally. A pint rarely lasts more than a few months for my family, never more than 6; I'm sure the bottled oil would eventually turn, expecially if it was from old stock when purchased or was stored improperly.
There are a whole bunch of books that explain the chemistry and range of options in more detail, but that is the 200-word summary.
/jvs
[corrected for grammar and reduced snippieness]
Edited 7/20/2003 1:00:20 PM ET by jvs
cures fairly quickly, and you can pour it over spinach.
(lol)
*****
jvs - I did not know that. I went to culinary school and cooked (well, baked) professionally, and everything I've ever been taught has been that walnut oil is a no-no for your wooden boards and utensils because it turns rancid.
So, what you are saying is that it's not the oil that's the problem, but the way it's applied? That if walnut oil is used it should be applied in the very thinnest of coats, allowed to cure completely, and re-applied and that this way it will not ever turn rancid, yes? But a thick glopped on coat is definitely going to turn rancid?
And we are talking about the stuff you buy in the market, not some special grade of walnut oil just for furniture finishing? And approximately how much time are we talking for curing? A day? A week?
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Same stuff as in high-end grocery stores (wouldn't trust my local Giant to turn it over often enough). I have used that and the "food-safe, pure" stuff LV sells for finishing side by side, and they work identically, although wouldn't drink the latter on general principles.... No sense having both around, so I go with the drinkable stuff.
Once it cures, it will resist biologicals almost as well as the wood itself (see various books for the chemistry), and, yup, thin coats, wiped immediately, are the ticket for a full cure. I just use the boards as I would have anyway once the first ~3 are applied when the wood is raw--any oil that comes off will do no harm. I he first three/four cure for a day in between, and a week before first use to establish the water repellance (a final coat of the beeswax mixture helps with that), and just re-apply when needed after that without worrying about use and timing. I work mostly in cherry, and make boards out of that--the color after a year is amazing.
Just curious, what school? I was an OJT saucier, but would pinch hit in the bakery (nothing like starting your workday at 2:00am), and still manage to bang out at least one 144 egg wedding cake a year for friends.
/jvs
Wow - you learn something new every day. I had no idea walnut oil could be used that way and be effective. Like I said, I was trained that walnut oil is highly perishable, and should never be used this way. Very, very cool. I think I may try this. I can certainly get decent walnut oil. I have a fantastic market I go to for most of my nicer things, including EVO, pine nuts, balsamic, etc.
School - oh, yes. Baltimore Int'l Culinary. Odd place. Terrible management. Good teachers.
Saucier? Well - that's impressive! In a good restaurant the saucier is the heart of the kitchen staff. It's a more demanding job than most people think, and more exacting. Sauces can make or break a dish. Saucier's also tend to be perfectionists and - dare I say (lol) - a bit tempermental! (G) That's a tough job - why did you get out of it? The hours finally get to you?
Thanks for all the information, BTW. This sounds like a method that may be perfect for my project.
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I was told that that years ago, too; hasn't proven out that way, and I don't believe in lunar cycles making genoise fall, either....
Heard of it, but never worked with anyone who went there. The two best execs that I worked for were JW grads. They were murder on the CIA-types that worked for them--probably revenge for the way they were once treated, I think because since JW used to be a much smaller school. Should have added line work (nobody works a single specialty); burned out, and finished school in hopes of greener pastures--at least people with communications BA's usually work the front of the house. :)
/jvs
I actually checked into JW, but my husband was working in Baltimore at the time and we didn't feel like moving to RI again. The best exec I ever met was a CIA grad - but - the fact is, you can never tell a persons talent based on school alone. You either have talent, or you don't. The school isn't going to change that.
Yea, burnout - that was me. 16 hour days, 6 days - sometimes 7 - per week, all on your feet, rarely even a lunch break and very little pay and NO benefits! Agh. You have to truly love the job to do it because you sure don't do it for money. I just got tired of never seeing my husband. I worked every weekend and holiday. He worked regular hours. It was tough. Eventually I just decided that I didn't love it so much that I was willing to make all those sacrifices, so I got out.
Hey - don't suppose you caught a show last night called "The Restaurant" on ABC? 10 p.m. Behind the scenes of a REAL restaurant. The exec hasn't started screaming at anyone yet - I think that's being saved for next week! (lol) Watching it is giving me flashbacks, though -
Lunar cycles and genoise? You're kidding? (G) I never heard that one. Baking is not something I ever had trouble with - I did hate working the line, though. Liked cold-prep and garde mangier, especially when I got to sculpt vegetables and prepare platters. That was fun.
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Edited 7/21/2003 9:52:19 AM ET by Biscuit
The previews scared me off, but if you thought it was ok, I'm willing to give it a look. For me, the real drama/excitement of restaurant work came together with a smoothly running production line--all business, all perfection, and professional as all get out. Any chaos came from stupidity. Not a lot of fun to watch unless you know what you are looking at. The previews seemed to center on fires and the Laurel & Hardy show out front (which actually seemed pretty authentic, but no interest at all).
Lunar was a euphamisim; I knew several chefs who swore it was true.
Never liked garde mangier; just when you got something perfectly prepared and presented, some idiot would come along, grab it, and take it out through the swinging doors. :)
Thanks for bringing back some memories, and good luck with the table!
/jvs
Oops--missed answering part of the question. You can tell when it is cured by swiping a finger across it; it should be absolutely dry. Flour will not stick to a board finished like this any more than it would to dry wood. I have one ~18x26" board that is only used for baking stuff, finishded with walnut oil only, and have no problems at all with thinnest pie pastry (old school--genuine lard).
Hi Biscuit,
Dig out your old Fine Woodworkings. Issue 38 sings wonderful praise about walnut oil. I've been using it on all my cutting boards, including end grain island tops. I buy it at the natural foods store. Put it on like any other oil finish - many thin coats, let it dry in between.
The clients like that it's a food product, not a chemical that promises non toxicity. If they're dubious I give them a copy of the article (p. 71-72).
Your table sounds like a dream. Good for you.
Steve
Dig out your old Fine Woodworkings. Issue 38 sings wonderful praise about walnut oil.
(lol) Funny man! I do have all the FC issues, though (well, all but one). Maybe I can pick up a back-issue on line, though. I'll go check. Thanks for the tip, and the second opinion! I think I'm going to try this.
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