I’m just about ready to assemble my Morris chair built from cherry.
My plan has been to use an aniline dye from Lee Valley (Natural Antique Cherry).
Ive used it before with pretty good results but this time I’m worried about blotching. And I’ve read that a thin coat of shellac as a sealer prior to dying can mitigate blotching. I could go ahead with this but I’m a little nervous (although I realize I can experiment on test pieces of course.)
I’ve heard some people suggest that just having patience and waiting a couple of years you end up with that color anyway. And I’m considering that but I’m not sure if I put some kind of relatively clear finish (Osmo? Rubio Monocoat? Amber shellac?) on top of unstained wood whether it will still end up naturally coloring over time. Does anyone have any experience with this or any suggestions?
Thanks in advance.
Rich
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Cherry will age, finish or not. Leave it outdoors in full sun for a few days (daytime only) and it will get noticeably darker right away.
I'd finish it first, without dye ir stain. Then leave it in the sun, if you can. But it will start to darken, regardless.
Analyze dyes, oddly, fade in sunlight. It could be that the dye will darken it initially, then fade -- just as the sun is doing its thing and darkening it. I've never done it, so I can't say for sure.
I always use two coats of Zinsser Sealcoat, a dewaxed shellac, on cherry. It adds color and depth. Then I put something more durable on top. But there are 1,000 ways to finish.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/forum/potassium-dichromate-safe-use
You can read all the comments associated with the use of potassium dichromate in the article. Hexavalent Chromium (Cr6) is quite toxic, while bivalent (Cr2) Chromium is not so much; that's what we're dealing with here.
I agree with the professor father-in-law in the comments from 2004.
The SDS is focused on occupational use; i.e., 5 8 hour days per week, 50 weeks per year, for a 40 year career, hardly relevant to a hobbyist like me using it 3 times in a year. It focuses primarily on hazard, or the propensity to do harm, while the real issue is risk, which includes exposure and dose. Keep in mind that in toxicology, exposure involves the material actually entering the body, not the popular concept of simply being in the neighborhood. No entry, no problem.
The K2Cr2O2 is supplied as a granular powder, and unless you dumped it on the bench, there would little concern about exposure to dust (more later).
I have used it to color sapele and mahogany while avoiding staining the holly inlay. This stuff reacts with the tannins to from a rich reddish brown color. Since mahogany contains lots of tannins and holly contains almost none, it works. While I have only used it on sapele and mahogany, it should work on any tannin-containing wood; cherry contains some tannin, but not a lot.
One supplier's instructions suggested 100 grams per liter as a starting point. I scaled that down to 100 ml. and cut it to 50 g/l, and it came out nearly black. Several trials later, I settled on 4 g/l and nailed it; 3 g/l would have also worked. I ended up making up 1/4 liter or about 1/2 pint, so used about 750 mg. of th estuff. With a 1 pound (454 grams) bag, there's enough for many lifetimes.
Apply, wait several hours and evaluate. Re-coat if desired, but like dyes, the color will darken somewhat when the finish hits it. I find it gives me a really great color with depth.
Now, dust. Complete your sanding, grain raising, BEFORE staining, so no dust is produced. After 3 coats of varnish, I sand lightly with 600, add more coats with 800 grit between, and I get what I want. Then 0000 steel wool and finishing wax.
Use gloves and common sense. I used a simple dust mask.
I tried it on a piece of cherry, then 2 coats of varnish; it does not solve the blotching issue. Cherry, lacking a lot of tannin, does not really benefit form this process.
I have used alcohol based stains with some success.
ML Campbell WoodSong® II Deep Penetrating Stain Base
Over time cherry will cherry. Take that sample part from your tenon test cut and stick it in a sunny window for a day. Put a coin on top or some opaque tape like in my pic below.
The results from waiting for time to do its thing come slowly, but without pooling, blotching, or the accentuation of tiny scratches. Cherry does not come in a can.
The color change will happen thru interior finishes. Just don't use a deck finish with UV blockers. My favorite finish for cherry is Waterlox Original. Somewhat labor intense (multiple coats), but gorgeous! Don't kill the natural color variation with a muddy uniform stain.
I’ve used garnet shellac (1&1/2 lb cut), Osmo, and Tried and True finish. All have worked wonderfully. Also, sometimes after making a piece, I will “sun tan” it for a few days. That’s the approach I would take. Either garnet shellac or Osmo (Tried and True takes a lot of elbow grease) then sun tan it over a few days.
The blotching is not so bad if you have the pores of the grain in the same orientation. Here are two panels with different grain orientation. Cheery pedestal desk drawers is book match and the other walnut is three piece two boards from a fletch one is ripped down the middle and glued to each of the center full size board with the grain orientated in the same direction. Like all of the other panels in the piece, are the same side of the tree with the faces in the same orientation.
If you want to do commercial work you would have to swallow your pride an do what the client wants.
Wait for it. You will be happy you did. The more sunlight itnis exposed to the faster it will happen.
I'll add my voice to the "no color" chorus. I've made a lot of stuff out of cherry, kinda pink to start, light and time yield great results.
My wife bought some cherry chairs quite a few years back, nice chairs, but the cherry was stained or dyed, doesn't look nearly as good as all the pieces I've built.
A light coat of orange shellac with warm it up and take away the pink. Then let it darken naturally.
Are you trying to achieve that dark red color that most people associate with cherry? Or the naturally darkening orange-reddish color that it gets in the sun?
I understand if you don't want to wait. You can mix dye (not stain) in shellac and adjust the color that way.
To quote my grandmother:
"Patience is a virtue, so possess it if you can.
Seldom found in woman; yet never in a man."
I have no care of your gender but thought it worth sharing - I get where you are coming from but for me, watching a piece age can be part of the fun, and planning for that ageing is essential.
I would love to have some paler woods stay pale, and it would be awesome if walnut stayed really dark brown, but wood changes, and learning to accept this, and that sometimes it will be a while before it looks its best, is just part of the craft.
FWIIW, I think Danish oils look great on Cherry, but so does Osmo. Both of those will give a good, rich look that in only a few weeks will have darkened to more like what you expect, then a few years will give a really deep colour that you simply can't find in an application.
"All good things to those who wait." (Hannibal Lecter. And many others...)
Possibly the premier commission cherry furniture maker is the 78-year-old, five craftsperson shop in Homer, Indiana, known as The Sampler. They use primarily an oil based finish, but others upon request, and they do sell the oil based finish. I own many of their pieces. Cherry does naturally darken in sunlight and will bleach out in strong, continuous sun.
Give them a call. I'm sure they will discuss finishes.
https://www.samplercherryfurniture.com/
https://www.facebook.com/SamplerCherryFurniture?mibextid=ZbWKwL
I've used lye solution to darken/redden Northwest cherry that I acquired as large slabs. It has a much lighter color than Eastern cherry, though eventually will darken with time/sun exposure. Here is a link to a FWW article: https://www.finewoodworking.com/project-guides/finishing/dark-rich-cherry-finish-with-household-products. I found it to give substantially darker color, depending on how much solution is applied. I did not neutralize the lye after applying, but as a college chemistry major, I don't feel the amount of alkalinity remaining on the wood is a risk, as most will have been consumed in the chemical reaction. As a previous poster mentioned, boltching is possible where brush strokes overlap if it is not applied uniformly, but it goes on quickly and I have not found that a problem. Otherwise, the color is quite uniform, avoiding the grain-related blotchiness common to cherry. The color layer is thick enough to allow sanding to remove the grain raised by the water of the solution. I seal with diluted dewaxed blonde shelac, and the with any further topcoat desired. I think this is a viable option if you have lighter-toned cherry and want a darker result, but I'd generally just allow natural darkening when using eastern cherry that has a darker basic tone.
You can review this video workshop for a more comprehensive approach to staining/dyeing.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/videoworkshop/2022/05/staining-and-dying-wood-with-mike-mascelli
IMO, a clear finish is the best; using a cherry stain will tend to result in a muddy appearance - stain is basically very diluted paint pigment. You might as well use the stain on a cheaper wood like poplar - that's what furniture manufacturers do.
Using a dye (alcohol-based dyes are less lightfast than water-based, but they don't raise the grain and they dry quickly, which can be good or bad) or a mordant to chemically alter the wood is a better idea, but the best is a clear finish, IMO.
Of course, the problem with applying a clear finish and letting it age naturally is that if anything is on top of it (like a lamp on a table, or a jewelry box on a chest of drawers) there will be a lighter spot underneath the object. On a chair this may not be an issue, but anything with a flat top to it tends to have things put on it. Also, if an item is near a window, the sun may darken one part of it more than another.
The deciding factor for me as to stain/dye or not is the size of the project and consistency of the color of the lumber. A cherry tree can now be milled at 8" at the small end.
excellent point
I really like the results of 3-4 coats of Waterlox on cherry; with or without stain.
Another vote for a clear finish and patience. Virtually every thing my house is cherry: furniture, built-ins, cabinetry, railings. And almost all has a clear finish. I prefer oil-based over water-based for the rich warmth it provides and then just wait. My go to is GF Arm-R-Seal.
I live at high altitude with lots of sun, so while cherry darkens pretty quickly around here, it can bleach out over the long haul (15 + years), so I have had to refinish a few items that spent a lot of time near uncovered windows. Fortunately the bleaching is only a few thousandths deep, so a few swipes with a plane or a scraper gets back to unbleached cherry.
Cherry darkens, then gets bleached out? Never heard of that before. It has certainly not been my experience, and I have cherry pieces that I built over 30 years ago with just a clear Watco finish.
Walnut will bleach out over time, and lots of colorful woods (purple heart, yellow heart, bloodwood, etc.) will turn brownish over time.
Why would cherry (or any wood, for that matter) first darken...then 15 years later get lighter?
I can't find anything on the internet to support this claim.
Re: Cherry lightens after it darkens
Go to about 27:00:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDKnnVH6-Nk
I did not know this happens either but I had it happen to a dining room set in our house. It was oriented so an end was towards a sunny window with a chair backed up to that window. We are pretty certain it all went dark first but over time (25 years or so) what happened you can see in the photos... Had we known we would have at least rotated the table and chairs.
Unfortunately, UV bleaching of cherry is a real thing — the attached photo clearly shows where a lamp usually sits. As I noted above, the bleaching isn’t very deep, so getting back to unbleached wood is relatively easy, at least on flat surfaces.
Thanks for the info - I had no idea, and it's odd that I couldn't find anything about this on the internet - the only mention of color change is that cherry will darken over time, and that you can accelerate that process by putting unfinished cherry in the sun before finishing.
I wonder what the mechanism is? If UV initially causes it to darken, why does UV later cause it to lighten? If someone knows the science behind this, I would love to hear it.
FWW, have you ever had any info on this in your publication? Do you have a finishing expert or two who you could query about this?