Replies

1. 
   RLMillard | Jun 30, 2002 09:14pm | #1

   I have a friend that uses Waterlox over shellac, and swears by the results, he does excellent work, so I’m sure he is right, but to me it sounds like a recipe for trouble down the road. I use dewaxed shellac under varnish, but I keep it very thin. I dislike the idea of having film finishes of different hardness used together, but I may be making too much out of it.

1. 
   EdgarM2 | Jul 01, 2002 02:16am | #2

   Thanks for your input.  Frank Klaus uses Waterlox extensively on his custom work, but I don't think he seals the wood with shellac - just starts with Waterlox and lets the finish build.  I may try some of the newer wipe-ons or mix my own 50-50 varnish (or Poly. varnish) with mineral spirits.  If anyone else has any ideas, please let me know.

   Ed

1. 
   BG | Jul 01, 2002 02:30am | #3

   I did put 6 coats of Waterlux on with briwax finish.  The Waterlux appears to have lifted some of the stain...but came out beautiful... 

2. 
   AlanTurner | Jul 12, 2002 05:28pm | #26

   Several years ago in FWW there was a note from a fellow who made his own wipe-on varnish oil.  I recently tried it, and it is great.  4 parts oil based (that may be redundant) varnish; 6 parts mineral spirits; 1 part boiled linseed oil.  Wipe on; let it sit 15 min or so, wipe off; 1/2 hr. later or so, wipe again.  4-5 coats gives much depth to figured maple.

2. 
   gerry001 | Jul 01, 2002 03:51am | #4

   I don't see any reason to use an oil-varnish over shellac. The oil should soak into base wood to give it depth, and the varnish serves as a binder and allows building up a very thin surface film. Using shellac first would seal the wood and reduce or prevent the oil from penetrating. Why not just use plain varnish, thinned for a wipeon? Yet another alternative is a shellac-oil mixture. But, what are you trying to accomplish here? Do you want an oil finish, or a film finish? What kind of sheen, and how much protection do you need?

   Gerry

1. 
   EdgarM2 | Jul 02, 2002 02:39am | #10

   Thanks for your input.  My reason for wanting to use shellac as a wash coat is to seal the surface enough to prevent uneven absorption of the finish and to smooth the surface, then add something with a film.  I agee that anything with oil should go on first, and have decided that a varnish/mineral spirits for wiping might do the job easiest over the shellac.  This is my first venture into knots and I'm duly impressed with all the help you folks have given.

   Ed

1. 
   gerry001 | Jul 02, 2002 05:49am | #15

   Paul, you could put oil/varnish over shellac and it will cure to form a very thin film. My statement was that I couldn't see any purpose, as opposed to using thinned varnish. Actually, an oil is sometimes applied over a thin washcoat of shellac, to reduce blotching. The shellac must be thin enough to not fully seal the wood. The same approach with shellac is also used for staining.

   Paul, I learned the shellac-oil mixture from Paul Rad on rec.woodworking. He was often called the "prince of shellac", and I believe he was friends with Jeff Jewitt. Most of what I know about using shellac came from the two of them. This is simply a case of providing a binder for the oil to reduce finishing time.

   Rich, there is a case for shellac over oil/varnish. Here you want the effects of the oil on the bare wood, but use the varnish binder so it dries faster. If you then wanted to use water base (poly, acrylic or anything) for a top coat, using a barrier coat of shellac avoids adhesion problems.

   Rich said: "Did you mean to say that? This is beginning to get all screwed up."

   Rich, of course! When did you last see a long thread on finishing that didn't twist itself in a circle?

   Biscardi, I agree and more so. In one of Jewitt's books he demonstrates that it does compare favorably to many other film finishes. I've also noticed that, when rubbed out to a high sheen, shellac seems to hold up nearly as well as poly. It seems to be more than just low friction, almost like the surface becomes denser or less porous. I've even used shellac on mallets.

   Gerry

1. 
   RSRose | Jul 02, 2002 08:06am | #16

   Gerry,

   well, ok if you put it that way.

   8-)

   I try to keep my finishing sequences simple, like me.

   Rich

1. 
   BG | Jul 02, 2002 01:58pm | #17

   Wow..what a discussion...a newbee could get confused.  About 25 years ago I did a lot of furniture re-finnishing and got my advice from a guy who had worked as a finnisher for 20 years at one of the fine furniture places here in Boston.  He always sealed first, stained and then applied protection.  He also made his own stuff, including the polish.

   Now, I'm overwhelmed by all the stuff on the market and, as the previous discussion indicates, all the combinations.  When people say 'oil' it appears that can mean anything form mineral oil to linseed, tung, danish, etc. same appears to be true for varnish (isn't waterlux a tung oil?).

   Personnally, I have been sanding to a 420 grit, hitting with water a few times and resanding, water stain, 6 coats of waterlux applied with hands, briwax and find that good bar that was mentioned a while ago but not followed up (sigh).  It is clear to me I need to get a good book and study more 

2. 
   gerry001 | Jul 02, 2002 02:35pm | #18

   BG,

   Now you've got me; I've never even seen 420 grit:-)

   For production furniture you have to account for variations in wood while keeping the pieces as uniform as possible. For that reason much of the color is applied over, and not in the wood. That's why they may partially or fully seal the wood first. If you think this is bad here, somebody posted a commercial finishing schedule a bit ago, and it had maybe 25 steps.

   If you try Hand Applied Finishes by Jeff Jewitt that one book should clear up all the confusion we're making by mixing terms and reversing the order in which we do things. Unfortunately, we typically skip the first step on these forums-- saying what we want to achieve. As soon as you identify that, you can narrow down and simplify the issue.

   Gerry

3. 
   BG | Jul 02, 2002 08:42pm | #22

   ...the actual grit was higher...but after taxes (taxachusetts here) its equal to 420...;)

3. 
   AntzyClancy | Jul 01, 2002 04:20am | #5

   According to "Understanding Wood Finishing", you can put just about any kind of film finish over a thin coat of shellac without any problems.  This is a great solutioin to proventing raised grain when using a water based finished.  Try it with the varnish, and if you like the look go for it.

   Todd

4. 
   Paul_Snyder | Jul 01, 2002 04:45am | #6

   On cherry, shellac produces a VERY nice finish (as does lacquer). However, if you need more durability, a varnish or poly will be a better choice for your top-coats.

   If you plan to use varnish or poly, start with a good coat of the 1# cut of shellac as you first suggested. If you use poly, make sure the shellac is de-waxed (also as you suggested) so the poly will adhere. Non-poly varnish will adhere to any shellac. The washcoat of shellac will seal the wood limiting the absortion of the oil-base varnish/poly. This will eliminate or greatly reduce the blotching that uneven absorption of the oil will cause. Shellac does a beautiful job of highlightling the grain so no great "depth" will be lost.

   I'm not sure what Gerry meant by a "shellac-oil mixture," but I would never mix these two together.

   Waterlox is a good quality varnish and you can thin it with mineral spirits to make a "wipe-on" finish. A few coats of wipe-on varnish over a shellac washcoat will provide a beautiful finish. Do the normal light sanding with very fine paper between coats to keep the finish smooth.

   If you have some extra wood, do a test using the shellac first and a test with just the varnish and see which you like better. I usually try to do tests on at least a 2' - 3' board with mixed grain to get a good feel for the results over a larger surface.

   Were you planning to color the wood at all or stick with a "natural" look and let time do it's job?

   Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   JohnKrist | Jul 01, 2002 04:38pm | #7

   Not to toot my own horn, but check out the cherry picnic tables in the Gallery section. I included finishing schedule: oil, shellac, urethane

   JK

2. 
   EdgarM2 | Jul 02, 2002 02:23am | #9

   Paul-

   Thanks for your input.  No, I do not intend to use any stain or coloring - I like the way nature does it's thing with cherry - ends up warmer than a stain, but takes longer to get there.  From everything that you and others have said, I think I'll go with a 1# cut shellac washcoat, sand to smooth, then use a wipe-on varnish for a few coats.  I'll make my own 50-50 with paint thinner rather than buy pre-mixed.  Thanks again.

   Ed

5. 
   HowardAcheson | Jul 01, 2002 06:33pm | #8

   First, "Antique Oil" is nothing special. It's an oil/varnish very similar to Watco. It contains somewhat more varnish. You can easily make your own. The standard formula is equal parts of varnish, boiled linseed oil and mineral spirits. For a more "Antique Oil" like product, mix in more varnish. Something like 40% varnish, 30% varnish and 30% mineral spirits.

   However, an oil/varnish finish is intended to go over unfinished wood. It's feature is that it penetrates the wood leaving a "close to the wood" finish. If you apply shellac or any other film finish first, you will have prevented the wood from absorbing the oil/varnish and you will end up with a sticky mess.

   The appropriate schedule would be to apply and oil/varnish, let is fully dry, then a shellac for coloring or sealing, then either more shellac or a varnish for final coats.

   Of course, an oil/varnish is a finish finish in itself if you want a "Danish Oil" type look.

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Jul 02, 2002 02:43am | #11

   Howie,

   Your idea about making "antique oil" got my interest. I was thinking that since pure tung oil is so much better at resisting water vapor and standing water than linseed oil is, would it be better to use it in place of the linseed oil (like some of the higher quality varnishes)? Also, I was looking at Minwax's MSDS for the proportions of varnish resins to get an idea of the mix they use. They say "66% linseed alkyd resins" - does that mean that the "antique oil" contains 66% varnish resins, or 66% of its contents is a mix of varnish resins and linseed oil?

   If an oil/varnish blend cures to form a film, though somewhat less durable than a straight varnish, why doesn't it cure and harden when applied over a seal coat? And why does it cure to form a film when applied over itself? Oil/varnish blends are generally recommended to be applied in multiple coats - more coats for a "glossier" look and added protection. I don't understand why it would be a "sticky mess" if the first coat isn't on bare wood.

   Thanks for your help.Paul

   F'burg, VA

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jul 02, 2002 05:29pm | #19

   Pure tung oil is not much better than linseed oil unless a great number of applications are made. While it is more water resistant than linseed oil, it is still pretty lousy. A major problem with pure tung oil is that it takes forever to cure. We are talking months here, not weeks.

   >>"66% linseed alkyd resins" - does that mean that the "antique oil" contains 66% varnish resins, or 66% of its contents is a mix of varnish resins and linseed oil?

   The latter. Remember, MSDS must tell you the dangerous components. The manufacturers deliberately obscure their true formulas as they are proprietary information.

   >>if an oil/varnish blend cures to form a film

   An oil/varnish does NOT cure to a film. If you place some on a glass surface, let it dry for 24 hours, you will find a crinkly glob. There is so much oil in the mixture that when the solvents evaporate, the material left is very soft. If a true film finish is first applied, then the oil/varnish just sits on top of the film.

   The intent of an oil/varnish is to penetrate the wood surface, not sit on top of it. If you read the instructions on the cans, you will see that they recommend only 2-3 coats. After the first two coats, the wood surface is sealed and when you apply more and wipe it dry, you are removing virtually all you just applied. Just like if you spilled it on a glass and wiped it off. If you don't wipe it completely, you will end up with a thick, very soft (gooey) finish.

   Here is a reference to a write up by Bob Flexner of "Understanding Wood Finishing" that may help. http://www.popularwoodworking.com/features/finish2.html

2. 
   RSRose | Jul 02, 2002 03:16am | #12

   "The appropriate schedule would be to apply and oil/varnish, let is fully dry, then a shellac for coloring or sealing, then either more shellac or a varnish for final coats. "

   Huh?

   Did you mean to say that? This is beginning to get all screwed up.

   In my experience, shellac can be applied to raw wood without impeding the application of ANY other finish. The choice of putting the shellac down first would be governed by all the characteristics of using shellac. There would be no advantage, in my opinion of using it under an oil-varnish mixture, but it could be done.

   Applying an oil/varnish mixture, first, then shellac as a "sealer" or for staining purposes makes no sense at all. The wood will be sealed by the oil/varnish. It might make sense to put the oil varnish down for any grain development that might be desired from that mixture, then shellac in multiple coats to achieve a shellac finish, but no sense to use shellac over oil/varnish as a sealer for other additional finish coats.

   It is not correct that oil/varnish over shellac will be a mess. While oil/varnish penetrates raw wood as the first coat, second and additional coats penetrate little if any at all, they just adhere to the underlying finish, polymerizing to a (very) thin additional film. This is what would happen over shellac.

   Rich

   Edited 7/1/2002 8:18:37 PM ET by Rich Rose

1. 
   Biscardi | Jul 02, 2002 04:36am | #13

   People keep saying that shellac is not durable. Well, it certainly wouldn't make a good bar top. There are, however, scads of fine antiques hundreds of years old with intact shellac finishes.

   Frank

1. 
   RSRose | Jul 02, 2002 04:43am | #14

   Biscardi,

   Not only intact, but often beyond improvement by anything available today.

   Rich

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Jul 02, 2002 05:57pm | #20

   >>shellac can be applied to raw wood without impeding the application of ANY other finish.

   Any FILM finish can be put over shellac. However, shellac will certainly impede the penetration of any penetrating finish that is put on top of it. A "spit" coat of 1/2# or less cut, is frequently used to reduce the penetration of stains and that is generally sanded lightly to again open some of the pores.

   The primary effect of using an oil/varnish as a first coat is to get the coloration benefits of linseed oil if the intent is to then use a more durable final finish. The high volume of linseed oil in an oil/varnish mixture is the element that "pops" the grain structure. Standard boiled linseed oil will work exactly the same as a colorant on cherry.

   >>There would be no advantage, in my opinion of using it under an oil-varnish mixture, but it could be done.

   I agree and never suggested that it be used as the first coat. That was the original poster's plan and I was suggesting it not be done.

   Using an orange shellac over linseed oil or an oil/varnish product is fairly common. The orange shellac adds some warmth to the cherry and is almost required if you are finishing kiln dried walnut. Shellac also provides an excellent, fast drying sanding sealer that allows the finisher to get to the final finish faster. Finally, boiled linseed oil or an oil/varnish takes 5-7 days to really cure. Applying a coat of shellac before will allow coating with a varnish and have minimal adhesion problems. Is it necessary, no. Does it hurt, no. Does it prevent possible future problems, in my experence and IMO, yes.

   Finally, as I responded above, an oil/varnish is not a film finish and there is little or no adherence to previous coats. That is why the instructions say not to attempt to build a finish. By wiping it as dry as you can, subsequent coats are wiped almost entirely off.

   There is a lot of marketing mumbo-jumbo and hype but very little really differentiates some of the finishes.

1. 
   RSRose | Jul 02, 2002 06:55pm | #21

   Howie,

   That's a very informative article. Thanks.

   It's surprisinf how discussions of finishing technics can get this confusing. We are saying essentially the same thing.

   I will slightly disagree on one point that both you and Flexner make - that a penetrating finish such as tung oil and linseed oil do not result in a surface film. This is not an absolute thing. No question that their chief action is to penetrate into the surface (very, slightly at that) and harden in place. But, after several applications there IS a film on the surface. After all, in your own explanation, when you let the stuff harden on a piece of glass, that crinkled mess IS the polymerized oil.

   If there were no film, there would be no need to scuff with sand paper or steel wool. There would be no "fine whitish powdery residue" on the pad of steel wool as one prepares the workpiece for the next oil application. Eventually that film builds, especially when an oil/varnish mixture is used. It's very thin, to be sure, and it could be argued that it's just the top of the hardened oil "in" the wood, but if it's not there, I'd like to know what's reflecting light from the surface when I'm done finishing with the stuff?

   But this is just splitting the finest of hairs (or surface films).

   Revealing in the article is the composition of various commercial preparations - especially Waterlox - which I've heard exalted to the point of ridiculousness (is that a word).

   The only truthful product is Sam Maloof's mixture which he freely described as 1/3 each linseed oil, raw tung oil and semigloss urethane varnish. He also claimed that the driers in the linseed oil "activated" the tung oil to polymerize. I don't think that tung oil works that way. I think it has to have been heat activated to polymerize on contact with oxygen. Also, I have never been able to determine if he wiped the wood surface clean of the mixture after applying it. I assume that he did, but he only described "applying" it 3 times at one-day intervals. He amply described "rubbing in the mixture each time" with rags and with his bare hands until his hands "got hot." But no mention of wiping the mixture off.

   He also used a mixture of 1/2 each linseed oil and raw tung oil to which he added bees wax "by feel, much as a cook seasons sauce."

   Rich

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jul 02, 2002 10:10pm | #23

   The way you can tell if you are dealing with a wiping varnish verses an oil/varnish mix is by the instructions. AFAIK, it's a wiping varnish if you wipe it on an leave it on. It's an oil/varnish if the instructions are to wipe it off as dry as you can.

6. 
   TerryH13 | Jul 12, 2002 03:28am | #24

   Ed,

   I don't understand why your having trouble finding Min-Wax Antique Oil.

   Where do you live? I live on two different coasts (east & west)and have been abble to find it.

   Best Regards,

   Terry

1. 
   EdgarM2 | Jul 12, 2002 03:59am | #25

   Terry-

   I had been trying to get Minwax Antique Oil at the local Home Depot stores, and other home-centers, and they haven't had it for many months.  But just recently I was in another store and they had it on the shelf.  No matter.  I just finished the first of three pieces of casework and used 1# dewaxed shellac as a sealer, sanded smooth, then applied 3 coats of a satin poly-min.spirits 50/50 mix wiped on.  It looks great.  Wipe on was fast and easy with none of the problems with un-noticed runs that seem to show up with straight varnish.

   Thanks for your input and to all others who got involved with this subject and replied.

   Ed

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Jul 12, 2002 05:39pm | #27

   Ed, I used to be able to get it but recently it has not been available. It's not listed as a product on the Minwax site either. I suspect that the marketing department has decided that "Tung Oil Finish" has more cache the "Antique Oil" so that is what they sell now. Both Antique Oil and Tung Oil Finish are pretty much identical as far as I can tell. Both are oil/varnish mixtures.

1. 
   TerryH13 | Jul 12, 2002 08:22pm | #28

   Howie,

   I just looked at the min-wax site and yes they do list Antique oil there. You have to look for it under the List of Products. It's easy to miss for some reason.

   Terry

1. 
   TerryH13 | Jul 12, 2002 08:46pm | #29

   Howie,

   Sent a picture of the Min-Wax Site showing Antique Oil hope this helps.

   Best Regards,

   Terry

   PS seems like I cannot get the piture uploaded will try later after I figure it out.

   Edited 7/12/2002 1:48:39 PM ET by TERRYH13

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jul 13, 2002 01:02am | #30

   Thanks, but no need to send the picture Terry, I believe you. As I indicated earlier in the thread, I make my own.

7. 
   TJinFL | Aug 06, 2002 02:59pm | #31

   Ed,

   I just finished a walnut end table using aniline dye, unwaxed shellac, followed by 3 or more coats of Fuhr 355 acrylic varnish.  You can see the result (the picture is not a good as I'd like though) under the gallery entry "2nd furniture project".  I am by no means an expert but I have tried many different types of oil/water-based poly and the Fuhr 355 is by far the best I've used.  I used a 1 1/2" golden taklon brush to brush it on and couldn't believe the near spray quality finish I achieved.  It dries in about 10-15 minutes. You can get all of these supplies (and expert advice) from Jeff Jewitt's web site http://www.homesteadfinishing.com.

   Good Luck.

   Terry in Delray Beach, FL

1. 
   EdgarM2 | Aug 07, 2002 03:55am | #32

   Terry-

   Thanks for your input.  My original message has been up so long and generated so much discussion, I hadn't expected anything more.  I appreciate your information about the brush.  I've been wiping on finishes in order to get a smooth look that I often am not completely satisfied with when brushing on varnish, but I'll have to try your suggestion.

   Ed

   The mark of a skilled woodworker is knowing how to fix your mistakes.