I need to match a dark finish on cherry. I ‘m not use to using dark stains, and my attempts so far are much more abrasive than the original finish; which is a dark red cherry or red mahogany color, though I can see the grain. I have only tried stain so far.
I know there are techniques using dyes, overlaying with shellac, glaze /stain and top coat respectively. I can post a picture of the original color if needed. It does not need to be an exact match…just ball park. Any suggestions or good formulas?
Replies
To obtain dark rich colors on cherry there are a couple basic principles. (1) You must control the absorption of stain to prevent blotching. I typically use a mixture of 2 pts tung oil finish 1 pt lacquer thinner. I apply this liberally, reapplying to areas to tend that soak it up quicker that others. I then remove all the excess quite thoroughly with a rag. I let this sit anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour depending on conditions. (2) To retain clarity you must build your color in layers. I start with a waterbase dye stain. These type colorants seem to give some consistency to the color of the raw material. If you desire a reddish brown finish start with a dye stain that contains a lot of red. If you desire a browner finish use a dye stain that contains more of a brown color. I then apply an oil base pigmented stain over the waterbased dye. The same color pigmented stain will look completely different depending which dye base you use under it. (3) I seal my stains with garnet or dark garnet shellac. 2 coats of shellac will add just a bit more color and makes a great base for most top coats except for maybe oil based poly. I have attached pics of a cherry side board that is finished using this process.
Ron
That is absolutely gorgeous and exactly what I'm looking for. A couple more questions:
Do you use actual tung oil, or the tung oil mixes available, i.e. minwax, etc.
Do you seal the dye stain in between adding the oil based stain? could I ask for some suggestions as to actual colors and manufacturers of the dye and oil based stains. The combination on your beautiful piece is really nice!!
Where do you get the Garnet shellac?
Thanks for taking the time and sharing your knowledge...it's greatly appreciated!
I used a tung oil finish which is probably just a reduced varnish. Sometimes I use minwax and sometimes Formby's. The waterbase dyes I use are Smooth and Simple gel that I get from Highland Hardware. For this piece I used Antique Cherry, had I wanted more brown than red I would have used American Walnut, for a Cordavan color I would have used Rosewood. You would get three different colors with the same pigmented overwipe. The pigmented stain on this piece was Sherwin Williams Fruitwood I could gone a bit darker by using the Sherwin Williams Mahogany. It is not necessary to seal between the waterbase dye and the oil stain. I mix my own shellac and I buy my flakes from Homestead Finishing, and I always buy dewaxed. On this piece my top coat was Target coatings waterborne lacquer.Ron
Ron...Thank you sincerely. I have learned so much today. I will check out your source for materials and attempt my own shellac. Does the top coat require rubbing, or just built up in thin coats (or sprayed)? Again, thanks...I've enjoyed the exchange.
I sprayed the shellac(2# cut) and the top coat. I rubbed out by sanding with 600 grit wet/dry and then rubbing with 0000 steel wool. I'm glad I could help. Ron
Very nice work. I am impressed.
Also, nice of you to share the information.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Hal,
Thanks for your website. I've really enjoyed exploring it. Your work is dramatic and breathtaking. Have you been in business long?
Hey Toolnaround,
I've actually been in business since September of 1977. I was one of those kids though, that started making things when I was about 3, using a limb saw, Dad's hammer, and any nails I could find. Tree forts and coaster cars were my specialty.
I was lucky to have met an old time builder in 1974 who taught me everything he knew. I worked for him for almost 4 years.
But in 1977, I started out on my own, applying siding, building decks, doing interior finish carpentry, for a while I was a staircase specialist (but unlike most today, I actually made all of the parts), I built high end houses for a few years, and basically I've been faking it since.
Okay, maybe I'm not really faking it, but I have been doing nothing but custom woodwork since 1992. I just wish I had photos of everything I've built. Some of the best stuff goes out the door and I never see it again.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Ron,
Have you found any water-based finishes that work using your method? I'm trying really hard to stay away from oil-based products, as my portable spray booth is set up in the basement and I don't want to cause an explosion with the water heater pilot light always burning... and my wife is very sensitive to fumes from oil-based finishes.
Marty
Edited 12/3/2006 6:37 am ET by Marty_Sawdust_Eater
There are waterbased shellacs on the market, in fact I think it's available from Homestead Finishing. The top coat that I use is a waterbase Target coatings product and these two products should seal in the oil base pigmented stain and the tung oil stain control wash coat.Ron
Hal,
Thanks for the contact info. I am already using Target Finishing's line of waterborne finishes and recently used their shellac for the first time on a dresser I refinished for a client. I have also tried Fuhr's lacquer and poly but came away a bit disappointed as compared to the results I get with Target Finishing's line. Any other companies' waterborne finishes you'd recommend?
Marty
Planearound,
I have used a lot of General Finish (GF) Polyacrylic finish, and have been quite pleased with it.
A few years ago it was rated by Fine Woodworking as the easiest to apply and best waterbased finish. So I tried it and liked it.
I use in on all of the interiors of my cabinets. It is tough and durable, and has no smell like most finishes. Also, it is easy to touch up if necessary, and any repairs do not show at all.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Hal,
Thanks for the info. By the way, how quickly does it dry?
Marty
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner but I have been sort of sucked into an Art Nouveau cabinet that I'm building.
The GF Polyacrylic dries pretty quickly. I only put two coats on cabinet interiors, so I lay it on pretty thickly. It will still dry sandable in about 3 hours. The second coat dries quicker.
So I usually apply a coat first thing in the morning, then sand everything after lunch, and apply another coat just before Miller Time.
When sanding between coats, I find that foam sanding pads work best.
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Hal,
Have you ever suspected stereates in sandpaper have led to fisheye in the finish coats? I rant into a problem a while back with some of Fuhr's waterborne polyurethane and someone suggested I change my brand of sandpaper to see if that would make any difference. I ended out having to buy some more lacquer and elected to go with Target Finishing's product line, which didn't give me any problems at all. So... I'm not sure if the Fuhr lacquer I had was at the end of its shelf life, or if their lacquer is sensitive to such issues.
I have just switched to different sandpaper: Klingspore (which I know has stearates) for 160 grit and coarses, and some Mirka Abranet (which I don't believe has any, but I'm not certain...) for 180 and higher grit.
Your thoughts?
Marty
Many years ago when I had a problem with fisheyes, I certainly thought that the sandpaper was the problem.
I haven't had this particular problem for years though.
I used to bring my furniture into my house to acclimate for a bit prior to finishing. I constantly had the fisheye problem. I fought the battle gallantly, over and over. It about drove me crazy.
Then I found out that my wife was using Pledge on her dust cloth, and while she was at it she would just go ahead and dust the raw wood furniture that I was storing in the corner.
Problem solved. I am now married to an environmentalist who would never use Pledge.
Life is good!
Hal
http://www.rivercitywoodworks.com
Hal,
What brand and model of sandpaper are you using?
Marty
Marty,
For wood I use Mirka Gold.
Sanding between coats of finish I use either 320 grit Mirka Gold or, any time I can, I use those sanding sponges that you can buy at Ace Hardware which have the sandpaper on the outside of a 1" thick piece of foam. I also sometimes use the thin foam with sandpaper on it for some things.
The sanding blocks are kind of expensive, but they really work well and don't seem to clog up much. GF Polyacrylic dulls them though.
Hal
Edited 12/18/2006 3:56 pm ET by Hal J
I plan to try your cherry finish, too. I have given up on using cut shellac to try to mitigate blotching. I am not young enough for my cherry pieces to darken naturally.
Your finish looks great, but I have a couple of questions. You mix two parts tung oil varnish (brand?) with lacquer thinner? I know little about finishing but I'd have thought the two were incompatible. Do you have to sand between any of the coats, after the water based dye specifically? Do you remove the stain after it sits for a few minutes as opposed to using it like a glaze. And finally what color pigmented stain did you use on your piece?
John see post #4 for the specific colors and tung oil materials. The tung oil and lacquer thinner mixes quite well and stays mixed without any problems, I believe that the lacquer thinner actually helps it dry quicker. With the waterbased dye stains you have to leave them on long enough to obtain complete absorption, but if you are working a big piece you may need some help so that it does not get ahead of you. Most of my surfaces are prepared with a hand plane and then scuff sanded only to improve the even absorption of the stain so grain raising is not much of a problem for me. On profiled surfaces that have been thoroughly sanded you may want to pre raise the grain with some water and resand before apply the tung oil mixture and waterbase dye. I usually don't have to do any sanding between the two stains. One point that I failed to mention up to now is that I think alot of people over sand cherry. You may find that you like the look of stained cherry that has only had a final sanding of 150 grit in lieu of 220 grit. Always experiment on scraps as you are building your project so when finishing time comes you already know what to expect and have a method thoroughly tried. You can add another light bit of shading by apply more of the oil pigmented stain after scratching up the shellac in preparation for the top coat. Ron
Thank you. I appreciate the thorough reply.
Could you use the shellac base coat as you described and top coat with alkyd varnish instead of lacquer? My assumption is that alkyd varnish would offer more protection than lacquer, but I am not sure if it is OK to put the alkyd varnish on top of shellac.
Thanks for any insight.
Oil based alkyd varnish with be fine over shellac--it doesn't even have to be dewaxed shellac.
Steve,
One more question.......I really like the way danish oil (like Minwax Antique Oil) brings out the beauty of walnut (cherry too). Is it OK to put on a coat of danish oil, let it thoroughly dry, lightly sand, and top coat with polyurethane for durability and protection? I know that you said in another post that Poly best adheres to itself, but is it an OK practice to use it over danish oil?
If well cured it won't be a problem, but with most oil based varnishes you won't be able to see the difference. And, if the top coat were a traditional resin varnish there would be even less risk of a problem, and you could be safe applying the top coat a few days earlier.
The varnish would be fine over the shellac and the varnish will look great as a top coat.Ron
Do I understand that you apply the dye to the piece after 15 minutes to one hour of applying the Tung oil, depending on conditions...or is this how long you allow the tung oil to sit on the piece and then apply the dye stain once dried?
I've learned that Smooth and Simple gel stain company may no longer be in business(per Highland hardware) . Based on your description, it sounds like a good product. But, I understand the principles to achieve a rich finish.
Again, many thanks.
That's how long I wait before I apply the waterbase dye stain. If Smooth and Simple is going out of business then I will probably have to go to Transtint dyes.Ron
Edited 11/30/2006 9:35 pm ET by Ronaway
I followed the posts on your finishes on this sideboard. I wonder how you isolate the staining of the different woods on your drawers, at the dovetails (drawer sides in natural and faces with stain). From the picture it appears so crisp that I wondered if you did some staining prior to assembly.
All drawer parts were prefinsihed prior to assembly.Ron
I have been experimenting with your techniques on finishing Cherry and am having good success. It amazes me how rich and even the final finish turns out by following your techniques. I'm not getting as deep (dark) of an initial color with the first application of dye stain. Even more difficult to get the stain to take, applying over the tung oil application; though I can see why it is necessary to apply the tung oil mixture for even absorption. I haven't tried gel dyes, so I've used some water based dyes from Lee Valley (unsure of the quality), but I'm not getting quite as dark as I would like. I think I'm leaving the dye on long enough!? Is it probably not a dark enough dye in the first place (using Antique Cherry, Rose Wood and Walnut colored dyes)?Or does the oil based pigmented stain determine depth of color? Should a second coat of dye be applied before moving on to the stain? Finally, do you use a gel stain over the dye based coat or liquid stain? I've tried both and seem to have more control with Gel.
I know these are loaded questions, as I will continue to experiment. I am really pleased with the results so far....any suggestions are appreciated.
You will not get the dark color with the initial coat of dye, the idea is to build the color in layers in order to obtain vivid color and still maintain clarity. I use Sherwin Williams wiping stain as the second coat of color. I seem to be able to control the Sherwin Williams stain and can obtain a darker color by leaving it longer and wiping it less vigorously. Just keep experimenting with different color dyes and stains and remember the part of the earlier post pertaining to sanding. You can easily oversand cherry and that will effect the absorption. Try a sample sanded to 150 grit and see how much difference it will absorb as compared to 220 grit, you may be amazed by the difference.Ron
Thanks again! I have found some Combinations that I'm really pleased with. Each attempt gets better. I will try the Sherwin Williams stains. (I'm sure I'll have more questions in the near future:) Take care!
Ron,
Should the Tung oil mixture be applied and fully dry before applying the dye stain, or is the concept to apply the dye while the tung oil is still slightly wet to still allow absorption of the stain? If the tung oil is fully dry, should the dye still absorb into the wood? On a practice piece, I noticed that some end grain really soaked up the tung oil, though I proceeded on to the dye after 30 minutes or so, and it too soaked up more color than the other parts. I may not have waited long enough to move onto the dye. I would like the end grain areas to look somewhat uniform to the rest of the piece. On the actual piece, I've done some detailed carving that I'm not sure how to predict it's absorption. Is this an area where the tung oil stage is most important? Thanks again.
Kevin
I typically sand end grain one or two grits finer than the face of a board, this goes a long way to balance absorption. If you apply the tung oil blocker mix and let it dry overnight it will not take as much color as it would if you apply the color after 30 minutes. Experiment to find what period of time works for the color you want to achieve. I must admit I haven't stained enough pieces with carvings to give you an educated answer.Ron
Edited 12/12/2006 8:39 pm ET by Ronaway
Thanks again Ron...
Is it hard to finish a large piece, such as you've shown, with the steps involved? After experimenting, I can see how a large project could get away from someone? I was inspired to try some carving from a carving magazine article recently seen and made some bookends for the learning experience related to carving. I attempted some of your finishing techniques on the Cherry and am pleased...and now feel a little more ready to use it on a larger piece. I like the way the garnet shellac subtly enhances the piece between steps, though these pieces were intended to look a little more aged, and difficult to predict how the carved areas would take the stains. Thanks again for your help. I enjoy looking at the piece you posted and would love to see more of your work. (I need to learn how to photograph furniture...these look a little better in person. They earn't quite as dark as the photo may depict:)
Nice carving and I think the color came out very good. When using these techniques on larger pieces you need to do some plannning in order to do it in managable steps. The other option is to obtain some assistance when tackling larger pieces. The waterbased dyes can get ahead of you and good planning is better than a blotchy finish.Ron
Edited 12/20/2006 9:37 pm ET by Ronaway
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