Hello everybody,
I am finishing solid cherry kitchen doors and want the cherry to have a uniform look but still want the cherry to age naturally. Normally stain and spray a lacquer but want these to look different – more natural but colour of cherry is varied and is looking to ???? . Any suggestions?
What is alcohol stain? What are its limitations? Would this be appropriate?
Thanks,
Eliza Williams
Replies
Eliza, please ignore the above twit. He's obviously just infiltrated here to prove how much of a jerk he can be, and I'm sure once Mark gets back, he'll be shown the door.
I'm watching for input on your finishing question, as I may be finishing some alder soon, which has similar problems. Best of luck.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Thanks for the support forest girl.
Not a great impression for a first time poster.
If the wonderful replies I received from this post are any indication, this sounds like a very helpful, friendly, knowledgeable group!
It is very nice to be reasured it isn't the norm.
I found it very humourous that he is so inarticulate that he had to resort to profanitity to express himself. I wonder if he can see the "plank in his eye"?
And, yes I am in a hurry. I have 6 kids and some cherry doors to finish.
Bye, and thank you everybody for the wonderful advice.
Eliza Williams
Hard to give you a potted answer in a few sentences, but reluctant as I am generally to colour cherry prior to polishing, I think my approach would be to start with a very thinned out shellac. Zinsser now sell stuff called SealCoat which I'm currently experimenting with for the first time. It's a dewaxed shellac designed in large part to act as a primer under any other film finish, i.e., oil varnish, water varnish, any of the nitrocellulose family, and, er, shellac, and any I've missed. Anyway, thin it out about 50% or more with alcohol-- its solvent-- and apply it lightly as a 'wash' coat.. It can be sprayed, ragged or brushed this thin. You just want it strong enough to partially form a film. De-nib with abrasive paper and apply a fairly weak dye to get a background colour. The pre applied thin shellac will reduce effective absorption of the dye thus reducing the chance of blotching, and it will help to even out the existing colour variations. Next you apply a tinted polish which is akin to thin paint. Tint the polish with either universal tinting colours (UTC's) soluble in any medium, or use alcohol (spirit) dyes in oil varnish, nitrocellulose type finishes or in shellac. Polish suppliers sell ready dissolved stain concentrate too that can be used, often sold as NGR (Non Grain Raising) stains. A little goes a long way when used to tint polish. Successive coats of tinted polish build up colour,and also occlude the grain more and more as additional coats are applied. Incidentally, you can only apply about three coats of pre-catalysed lacquer before you start running into the chinese writing fault, so beware on that score--- 5 mils or less is the recommended final film thickness.
I'd really need to see the job and fully understand what effect you are looking for before I could give a good opinion here, but the above might help at least generate some more contributions, and get you experimenting in the right direction.
Alcohol dye or stain is a colouring agent soluble in that medium. Dyes dry clear and do not occlude the grain. Most dyes are usually known generically as 'aniline' dyes, although many are not now derived from the actual coal source. Stains contain pigments that do hide the grain, and the pigments lodge in the open grain/ pores of open pored/grain timber, such as ash oak, mahogany, walnut, etc.. All these colouring agents are mostly available soluble in oil, i.e., white (US mineral) spirits, alcohol or water. Slainte, RJ.
Edited 5/11/2002 1:16:00 AM ET by Sgian Dubh
Sgian
Can you go into more depth about polish. Is this a synonym for a more familiar finishing product. If not could you describe in a bit more detail. Thanks for sharing your expertise.
Tom, 'polish' is just the general term used in furniture making for a film finish, whether it be french polish (shellac) precatalysed lacquer, or varnish (oil or water based) , etc.. From the furniture maker's point of view, if you varnish something, it's polished, if you see what I mean, even if it's an exterior door. Slainte, RJ.Link to RJFurniture site.
It sounds like you want to color the earlywood to more closely match the latewood. A dye is a good choice for this. You can get some pre-mixed dye at http://www.woodfinishingsupplies.com made for cherry - it's called "sap stain" and is listed under the stain section. I personally believe the best way to apply this stain is by spraying - apply VERY slowly (gun turned WAY down) and feather in the color. Practice on scraps.
After evening out the color variations, if you want to stain the wood you'll need to control blotching. By partially sealing the wood you can control stain penetration - that's where the thin coat of shellac does it's job. Follow the shellac with a good gel stain, like Wood Kote, or a good solvent stain like Triclad (see link). Follow the stain with a durable finish - a good pre-cat lacquer will outlast standard lacquer - ML Campbell's Magnamax for example.
No matter what you put on the cherry it will still darken with time. Exposure to the sun will darken it faster.
Eliza,
If what you are after is more uniformity, here's a thought. As you know, age patina's cherry, darkening it somewhat. Exposure to the sun does the same thing very quickly to cherry. In my experience placing cherry in the direct sun light sort of reduces some of the color differences and seems to blend the colors together. It doesn't take long either. You can experiment by placing a piece of your cherry scrap in the sun with something partially covering it. After it's exposed for say 15min, take a look under the covering piece. There will be a shadow line where your test piece was covered. The longer you leave it in the sun, the darker it will get and also, the more uniform the colors appear. I have done this many times with entry stile and rail, raised panel doors, and have been pleased with the results. It's easy (especially if the item is flat,like a door) you don't have to become a finishing specialist , and the cherry has been naturally patinaed (albeit somewhat hurried along).
By experimenting with scrap, you can see if doing this creates the result you are after, and how long to leave your wood exposed.( Seems like I've never had to leave it out for more than an hour). If this gets you what you want, then the finishing proceeds as per your preference, if not, you're out about an hour of time. wb
Eliza,
This is another approach, I posted this here a year or so ago:
In this forum and others there seems to be a lot of questions asked about Cherry blotching. Having never experienced this phenomena in almost 40 years in working with wood, I thought I would share how I have avoided this problem because I really don't think that I could be that lucky.
As with any wood, surface preparation, IMHO, is the most critical yet often over looked due to impatience in getting the project done, tediousness of the operation, or lack of knowledge. When ever possible I avoid abrading (sanding) and use hand planes and scrapers. The primary reason that I do this is that regardless of how fine the grit is you will still end up "roughing" the wood fibers as opposed to slicing them. By abrading the wood, I feel that one leaves them selves open to problems in the application of stain and/or finish. Only until all surfaces have a glass smooth appearance will I move on to the next operation.
Cherry is one of the few woods where sapwood and heartwood is not only acceptable but, desirable as well. Because of the scarcity of Black Cherry in my neck of the woods, I have incorporated the use of stain and "sun tanning." Since I do live in an area where there is frequent sunshine I will darken the pieces by laying them out in the sun before after surface preparation for about 4 hours.
I use Minwax Cherry Stain (#235) which is an oil-based stain that they claim is also a sealer. I brush the stain on with medium loading going with the grain. I work the stain in by going across the grain and then with the grain. I will let the stain stand for about 10-20 minutes depending on the weather. The temperature determines length of time. After the stain has set, I use a clean 100% cotton "rag" (old T-shirt) and wipe off the excess stain. If you buy your rags make sure they are lint free. Some outlets sell packaged remnants of 100% cotton T-shirts and skivies, I have found that these are no good for applying finish since they still contain the sizing. A better term to use might be "rub out." I will go with the grain first with moderate pressure, then use a circular motion with the same pressure, then will use a very light pressure, going with the grain, to "feather" or blend so the surface is "uniform" in shading or tone, if you will.
After letting the stained piece dry for 24 hours, I am now ready to apply the finish. On high end pieces I French polish but, typically I use Minwax Wipe On Poly in a satin or semi-gloss. When this product arrived here a couple of years back, I was skeptical. After some experimentation I was impressed enough to incorporate this product into my finish operations. Minwax advises against the use of tack clothes with this product and I am here to tell you that it is good advice. Tack clothes do leave a small amount of residue behind that will affect the final finish. I vacuum and use compressed air to clean the piece prior to finish and sanding between coats. I recommend against the use of #0000 steel wool because of the deposits left behind.
I apply the finish, again using a clean 100% cotton "rag", wiping it on in a circular motion in sections about 2' square and then go with the grain. It is important to work quickly, feathering each section into the last section. I use 220 or 320 grit aluminum oxide with a very light touch between coats. At 70° F drying time, sanding, is about 4-6 hours. Minwax recommends 3-4 coats; I usually go with 6. I sand the second to last coat with 600 grit silicon (dry) with a very light touch.
The first project that I did using Minwax Wipe On, was my on my kitchen cabinets almost three years ago. It has proven to be an extremely durable finish.
In conclusion, I would say that using the above techniques should eliminate any "blotching" as it is a technique that I have been using for over 25 years as a professional, with the exception of using Minwax Wipe On Poly. For those who might be skeptical, find a piece of Cherry with both heartwood and sapwood and try it, you will be satisfied.
Hope this helps.
Dano
Edited 5/11/2002 10:26:30 AM ET by Danford C. Jennings
Dano;
I use the Min-Wax oil based Cherry Stain #235 on a lot of pine and poplar. It states right on the can to use the pre-stain conditioner on soft woods. Did I miss something here or does Cherry take this stain without a pre stain conditioner? I was also under the impression that you had to treat Cherry like a typical softwood because of the blocthing.
Dave in Pa.
Dave,
Sorry it took so long to reply, AOL crashed my 'puter....
Anywho, I guess maybe you have missed something.....It also says on the can that it's a sealer too. I've never used a "pre conditioner" in 40 years.....Perhaps if you re read my post and try it on some scrap Cherry you can report back to us. I've had many e-mails over the period of time since I first posted that little "primer" in regard to the success of my method.
Dano
"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
Edited 5/24/2002 4:24:07 AM ET by Danford C. Jennings
I'll give it a shot but I talked to MinWax about it and they said to use a pre-stain conditioner. I also have the book from Tauton on "Finishes" and Jeff Jewitt says to saturate the surface with thinner and that will show you where the blocthes will occur. I have plenty of scrap cherry laying around aand as soon as I am done with the table I'll give it a try. Thanks
Dave in Pa.
Dave,
Yeah, I know. If I owned Min-Wax, I'd tell you the same thing they did.....All I know is that I've been using this approach for 40 years and it's never let me down. Nothing against Jeff or Taunton but, they are not the gosepl on finishing......nor am I for that matter.
Actually, my intent for the original post and re-post here in this thread was to offer up a successful method that I was taught. Whether or not you or anyone else uses it doesn't concern me in the least. I just know that it works and have never experienced any blotching problems with Cherry.
Notice the part about the use of hand planes......
Enjoy your weekend.
Dano
"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
Edited 5/25/2002 12:37:09 AM ET by Danford C. Jennings
When finishing cherry you can spray a dye on the wood prior to applying the finish to even out the color variations.
My favourite is a dye followed by a toner coat then the clear finish. I use ML Campbell products. Topcoats are Duravar.
Huge learning curve in finishing! I have my own projects to work on today thats why i am cutting this short.
If it posts, a kitchen that i did all cherry and the doors and drawer fronts i built using mild curly cherry.
I have had VERY good luck with Old Masters Penetrating Cherry stain (oil based). Color tint is great and I get hardly any 'blotching' as is common with staining Cherry. It's not a sealing stain, so multiple coats can be used to darken it up. I quit sanding at 220 grit.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
PlaneWood
HI ELIZA, THERE IS A COMPANY CALLED WOODKOTE,THEY MAKE GEL,STAINS. I HAVE USED THEM ON, CHERRY,MAPLE,AND VERYUS OTHER WOODS,WITHOUT ANY BLOTCHING. GOOD LUCK ON YOUR PROJECT. MARK.
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