WE ARE ABOUT TO INSTALL NEW EXTERIOR DOORS MADE OF KNOTTY ALDER. THEY WILL HAVE SOUTHERN EXPOSURE BUT WE HAVE LARGE TREES FOR SOME PROTECTION FROM THE SUN. I DO NOT WANT A HARD FINISH THAT WILL CRACK & PEAL THEN NEED RESANDED. I AM THINKING OF TUNG OIL AND JUST REAPPLY FREQUENTLY (EVERY 6 MONTHS). I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ANYONE HAS EXPERIENCE LIKE THIS & IF IT WORKS AS MOISTURE & UV PROTECTION. I HAVE ALSO CONSIDERED JUST SOMETHING LIKE THOMPSON’S (NO RELATION) WATER SEAL. THE DOORS WILL BE STAINED AND HAVE A GLASS PANEL WITH IRON WORK OVER IT.
COMMENTS APPRECIATED – JIM
Replies
I make alot of doors to fit into old houses..
I AM THINKING OF TUNG OIL AND JUST REAPPLY FREQUENTLY (EVERY 6 MONTHS).
The problem is with most folks they 'forget about that door'!
Sikkens is the best of the barrier coats. It is the Cetol System you want, and should be able to find it at good paint stores. In 35 years of professional door building, it is the only finish I recommend. Oil finishes will not last (more than a few weeks) if there is any ambient UV.
Sikkens Cetol is flexible and workable. When it fails (as all exterior wood finishes do) it merely looks dull and physically worn, and can then re-topcoated in a day. It does not crack or peel if applied correctly. Also good for both sides.
A word about Alder. It is perhaps one of the most challenging to build doors with since it is notorious for movement - it has a mind of its own. We do not warrant exterior doors in Alder, and don't know if anyone does (beyond the token "responsibility is all yours" warranties).
Big Lumber Co was forced to stop spraying defoliant on the Alder groves that took over their clear cuts 30 years ago, and moaned and groaned about how trash woods (Alder) would overtake valuable Pine farm land. Someone reminded them of how they turned all that #2 Pine into "Knotty Pine Paneling" with Carleton Varney et al in the '50's, and they hired designers and photographed Alder kitchens in the late '90's. The new look of distressed Alder created desire in the American public, and the trash wood became the new gotta have it wood. When I started buying it 9 yrs ago, it was .67 cents a board foot!! Yes, .67 cents!! The cheapest thing in existence that could be called lumber.
Now when I tell people that an Alder door will cost the same as pattern grade Honduras Mahogany, yet have no warranty, they still buy the Alder because it is what their neighbor has and the door mass manufacturers push. When they complain that it is sticking (swelled), they must pay for refit and touch-ups.
Dave S http://www.acornwoodworks.com
I wouldn't waste time with Thompson's. It's paraffin (wax) based - looks like it's doing a great job when you first put it on because the water really beads up. But what happens to wax in sunshine.......?
Make mine mahogany- looks good, joins well and lasts...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I've made a couple of exterior doors, what I use is good ol' Spar Varnish. I haven't tried anything else because it works just fine. The first door was built and installed about 5 or 6 years ago and aside from the very bottom that has had water coninuously splashing on it from rain the finish has held out very well.
What I like about the Spar Varnish is that it doesn't harden. It does dry up but it always remains soft, this allows the wood to move without cracking. After all if it has been used on boats it has to work.
I just installed my second outside door, it got four coats of of the stuff and my client fell in love with it.
Good luck!!
Forget the Thompson's water seal. The stuff is garbage and will wear out before you've cleaned up the mess.
On the WoodMagazine board a group of pros have done some testing of an outdoor finish. Howard can come along and fill this out with the number of years this application has lasted on the test doors.
You use the oil base tint base used to make exterior grade paint. It is the base used for the darkest color of paint. No tint is added. You paint with this base. It dries clear and is apparently VERY VERY durable.
Gretchen.. I do that!
Paint store folks always ask.. Why no tint?.. I just chuckle a bit and tell them to TRY IT!...
Somehow the colors are MUCH better if you like the base color...
I'd like to second the original reccomendation of Sikkens Cetol 1 system. I have a 20 year old south facing exterior front entry door in SW Utah where we get plenty of UV. It is old growth edge grain Douglas Fir with carving and lots of moulding, side lights, etc. It had had multiple coats of spar varnish over the years, was peeling and flaking, and was a big pain to tediously strip and sand.
Four years ago I refinished with 1 coat of Cetol 1 and two coats of Sikkens TGL varnish. It has held up well--needs to be scuff sanded and given another coat of TGL per the Sikkens instructions.
I think the point of spar varnish is simply that it has high oil content and never dries completely hard so it remains flexible to accomodate shrink and swell in exterior applications. It doesn't have good UV resistance and won't protect the wood from UV without a pigmented stain. The Sikkens products are modern formulations specifically designed for flexibility and UV resistance in exterior application.
The drawbacks to Cetol 1 are: 1) cost--$17 per qt. and 2) color--the Cetol 1 coat is quite reddish orange because, I think, the good UV resistance is due to high content of extremely finely ground iron oxide (i.e. rust dust). So it is important to do a test piece of the same wood with any stains planned and all of the Sikkens coats. For my door, sort of distressed Doug Fir, it suited me, but it might look kind of garish on a white wood or a wood with strong heart/sap color difference. One other thing, the Cetol 1 coat is a very thin, runny stain/varnish and somewhat difficult to apply without runs on a vertical surface.
Tung oil has no water or water vapor protection, nor does it offer any UV protection.
Here is the article that Gretchen referred to:
OUOTE
In a recent post my friend, Steve, made reference to my tests of doggie sprinkling on exterior finishes. I figure after almost a year of testing it is time to post some interesting discoveries.
As a preface, allow me to set the stage. Almost daily there is a posting about clear, exterior finishes for doors, chairs, signs and such. Responses run the gamut from diehard marine finishes to apply a coat of primer and then paint. Each of these has a bit of a problem. Marine finishes are not always the easiest to find and it grieves me to think of a lovely oak, teak, mahogany, fir, redwood or similar nice wood door painted in mauve goop.
Bob from Fl inspired me with his continuing and accurate statements about the failings of a clear coat and the advantages of a good quality exterior paint. I decided after lots of reflection that he really was right but there was always the picture of mauve in my mind. Sooooooooo, how could one take advantage of his advice and yet capitalize on the beauty of a nice wood.
I began to reflect on the characteristics of paint. Now, comes the boredom.
There were several things I knew about paint. Exterior paints contain a mildewcide and a fungicide that a varnish does not. The best quality paints will contain a UV protectorant and trans-oxide pigments in very high percentages. Almost all paint is custom mixed by the store. The retailer maintains a large supply of base products that are used to achieve the desired color. There are generally 4 base products and the specific one for your paint is determined by your color choice. These base products are either named or numbered. They are named pastel, deep, tint and neutral. If numbered it is cleverly 1, 2, 3 and 4 with the exception of Olympic who numbers 1, 2, 3 and 5. Olympic is unaware that 4 comes before 5. Pastel and/or 1 is virtually a pure white and used for the lightest of colors. The others are slightly color altered from white and more translucent than pastel. These are used for succeedingly deeper colors. All of this comes to neutral, 4 and/or 5. These are clear and used for the darkest colors. In the can they are somewhat opaque but dry more or less clear.
Now comes the testing. I bought 4 oak exterior doors. Each door was given one coat of the same MinWax Stain. On 3 of the doors, I applied 2 coats of "base" to the 6 sides of each door (3 coats on the top and bottom edges). Each of these three doors had a different type of exterior neutral, 4 or 5 base. The fourth door was finished with a consumer "spar" varnish from my local friendly paint/hardware store. The bases for the 3 painted doors were an exterior semi-gloss acrylic, an exterior semi-gloss oilbased polyurethane floor paint and a semi-gloss oilbased trim and siding paint.
The doors were set up, slightly inclined, in mostly direct sunlight under a pecan tree in the backyard. My wife just loved that one. Daily, the sprinklers managed to hit the doors. The birds in the pecan tree used the doors for target practice. And, yes, the dogs did anoint the doors on a regular basis. My blonde Cocker, Zazu, was particularly enamored with the doors. Over the course of the test the doors experienced lots of Texas sunlight, rain and snow. The temperature went from below freezing to over 100. The advantage to the inclined position of the doors was the snow, ice, water from the sprinklers and the rain tended to collect in the raised panel areas. I feel these doors were subjected to far more severe environmental conditions than would be expected from normal use.
The results were interesting. The "spar" varnish looked fabulous but after about 2 weeks it began to develop small cracks. In rapid order the door began to turn black, started to mold and the smell was enough to knock a buzzard off of a manure wagon. The waterbased acrylic is milky in the can like a waterbased poly. It dried to a more or less water clear surface but was a bit cloudy. It tended to wash out the stain a bit. Over time it became cloudier and ultimately become almost white. But, it remained solid and protected the wood. The oil based bases are also a bit opaque in the can but dried to a clear finish that is almost identical to a spar varnish - they added an amber tone to the doors. Both the poly floor paint and the trim and siding paint remained "clear" over the entire test period.
The testing came to an end with a bit of encouragement. My wife said something clever like, "Get those damned doors out of the backyard?". She does not understand science. The floor poly had some minor checking and a thinned coat of the same base over the surface made that disappear. The door with the oilbased trim and siding paint was perfect other than it had lost a bit of the gloss.
So, I am with Bob - paint the door. My preference is the oilbased products. If you are predisposed to a waterbased use an acrylic rather than latex.
One thing you will find when you go out shopping for your product is a lack of knowledge on the part of the salesperson. Not many of these folk are aware that their neutral or 4 base will dry clear. If you want to have some fun, spring it on them. They will suggest you are full of Donkey Dust. Ask them to shake a can and put some on a stir stick. Dry it and voila, it is clear.
Jim Kull
END QUOTE
Let me add that I have coated three doors as above. One is now over three years old. The other two are about a year+ old. All are doing real well. The three year old door will be lightly sanded this Fall with 320 paper and another coat put on.
Also, be sure to coat all sides and edges (outside, inside, top, bottom and both edges) equally.
Howie.........
Edited 7/27/2005 12:45 pm ET by Howie
I went down to the local Benjamin-Moore paint dealer (there being no Olympic here) and had exactly the experience described - total disbelief, phone call to the rep, more disbelief, test on a stick... well, I'll be d-d! It DOES dry clear!So now I've got a test panel going with this and a few other finishes, to see how they perform in the rather milder conditions here. One thing I noticed right away - the paint base and the Minwax exterior varnish were both really thick, probably to meet the low-VOC requirements here in smoggy CA. They need to be thinned for easier application. One nice thing about the paint base is it seemed to dry harder than the spar, so it could be rubbed out if you don't like the super-high-gloss."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Was unable to post this yesterday, so I'll try again:
In situ exterior doors and siding, natural and stained, finished clear with dark tint base from S-W & Olympic:
Middle Tennessee: southern exposure, rain impact, French doors with glass, eight years, no perceivable change. This is perhaps the nastiest ambient I've ever done exterior woodwork in, .... galvanized tin only lasts eight to ten years there! Will revisit this weekend (tenth year).
Central Arkansas, NE exposure, under thin pine trees, 12 years, very slight change to high gloss, but no failure of film. May just be dirty! Dog on other side of door encouraged me to leave ... no-one answered bell!
Wichita Falls TX, N and S exposure, blue sky overhead, not much rain there, after 14 years, no change to finish reported by neighbors, who want me to reveal what I used, as they redo theirs with spar varnish every two years! This is the one that surprised me the most .... even the gloss is stabile. The matching natural wood threshold was replaced with aluminum (due to interior floor changes), and the south door was trimmed to fit without a trace of finish being applied (no one would see!), and there is lifting of the finish all along the bottom. (I might stop by next month and touch it up for them.... they caught me doing a follow-up inspection four years ago and were nice enough to hold the dog while I looked at the back door!)
Differing from "Howies" experiments, these were all done with high gloss, oil based tint base. I was taught that the high gloss will outlast satin or semi- by a factor of 2x. It takes some "gettin' used to" with shiny exterior paint, but the dividends are worth it. No chalking to worry about, and repainting is many, many years between. You need to lightly skuff-sand for followup coats, but I think that's a good practice with the satins & semi-s as well, even flat primers.
I have another exterior test under construction here in East Texas that I'll post results on. The best part (other than work avoidance), is the young Sherwin-Williams salesman who insisted the mildewcide and UV inhibitors were in the tint, and that my application wasn't covered under their warranty.... go figure! They had some exterior varnishes available at three times the cost!
Whatever .... buy the highest quality/high end material available and it will reward you with extended life.
John in Texas
Now if we could get a 'SAFE' old Oil Lead based Paint these days!
Check this post out that I discovered recently on just this topic.
Post # 23121.1 at Knots
I found this article in about '98, lost it and just found it again. Some very interesting observations that I've never seen anywhere else:
In a recent post my friend, Steve, made reference to my tests of doggie sprinkling on exterior finishes. I figure after almost a year of testing it is time to post some interesting discoveries.
As a preface, allow me to set the stage. Almost daily there is a posting about clear, exterior finishes for doors, chairs, signs and such. Responses run the gamut from diehard marine finishes to apply a coat of primer and then paint. Each of these has a bit of a problem. Marine finishes are not always the easiest to find and it grieves me to think of a lovely oak, teak, mahogany, fir, redwood or similar nice wood door painted in mauve goop.
Bob from Fl inspired me with his continuing and accurate statements about the failings of a clear coat and the advantages of a good quality exterior paint. I decided after lots of reflection that he really was right but there was always the picture of mauve in my mind. Sooooooooo, how could one take advantage of his advice and yet capitalize on the beauty of a nice wood.
I began to reflect on the characteristics of paint. Now, comes the boredom.
There were several things I knew about paint. Exterior paints contain a mildewcide and a fungicide that a varnish does not. The best quality paints will contain a UV protectorant and trans-oxide pigments in very high percentages. Almost all paint is custom mixed by the store. The retailer maintains a large supply of base products that are used to achieve the desired color. There are generally 4 base products and the specific one for your paint is determined by your color choice. These base products are either named or numbered. They are named pastel, deep, tint and neutral. If numbered it is cleverly 1, 2, 3 and 4 with the exception of Olympic who numbers 1, 2, 3 and 5. Olympic is unaware that 4 comes before 5. Pastel and/or 1 is virtually a pure white and used for the lightest of colors. The others are slightly color altered from white and more translucent than pastel. These are used for succeedingly deeper colors. All of this comes to neutral, 4 and/or 5. These are clear and used for the darkest colors. In the can they are somewhat opaque but dry more or less clear.
Now comes the testing. I bought 4 oak exterior doors. Each door was given one coat of the same MinWax Stain. On 3 of the doors, I applied 2 coats of "base" to the 6 sides of each door (3 coats on the top and bottom edges). Each of these three doors had a different type of exterior neutral, 4 or 5 base. The fourth door was finished with a consumer "spar" varnish from my local friendly paint/hardware store. The bases for the 3 painted doors were an exterior semi-gloss acrylic, an exterior semi-gloss oilbased polyurethane floor paint and a semi-gloss oilbased trim and siding paint.
The doors were set up, slightly inclined, in mostly direct sunlight under a pecan tree in the backyard. My wife just loved that one. Daily, the sprinklers managed to hit the doors. The birds in the pecan tree used the doors for target practice. And, yes, the dogs did anoint the doors on a regular basis. My blonde Cocker, Zazu, was particularly enamored with the doors. Over the course of the test the doors experienced lots of Texas sunlight, rain and snow. The temperature went from below freezing to over 100. The advantage to the inclined position of the doors was the snow, ice, water from the sprinklers and the rain tended to collect in the raised panel areas. I feel these doors were subjected to far more severe environmental conditions than would be expected from normal use.
The results were interesting. The "spar" varnish looked fabulous but after about 2 weeks it began to develop small cracks. In rapid order the door began to turn black, started to mold and the smell was enough to knock a buzzard off of a manure wagon. The waterbased acrylic is milky in the can like a waterbased poly. It dried to a more or less water clear surface but was a bit cloudy. It tended to wash out the stain a bit. Over time it became cloudier and ultimately become almost white. But, it remained solid and protected the wood. The oil based bases are also a bit opaque in the can but dried to a clear finish that is almost identical to a spar varnish - they added an amber tone to the doors. Both the poly floor paint and the trim and siding paint remained "clear" over the entire test period.
The testing came to an end with a bit of encouragement. My wife said something clever like, "Get those damned doors out of the backyard?". She does not understand science. The floor poly had some minor checking and a thinned coat of the same base over the surface made that disappear. The door with the oilbased trim and siding paint was perfect other than it had lost a bit of the gloss.
So, I am with Bob - paint the door. My preference is the oilbased products. If you are predisposed to a waterbased use an acrylic rather than latex.
One thing you will find when you go out shopping for your product is a lack of knowledge on the part of the salesperson. Not many of these folk are aware that their neutral or 4 base will dry clear. If you want to have some fun, spring it on them. They will suggest you are full of Donkey Dust. Ask them to shake a can and put some on a stir stick. Dry it and voila, it is clear.
Jim Kull
Alan & Lynette Mikkelsen, Mountain View Farm, est. 1934, Gardens & Fine Woodworking, St. Ignatius, MT
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
I was so anxious to share the info with you I didn't read ahead to discover Howie had already done so. Good luck.
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
No problem Blue. It's a good read and bears repeating.Howie.........
Try Penofin marine finish. It is an oil based penetrating finish with brazillian rosewood oil with great UV protection. suggest the marine finish because it has more of the good stuff than the regular. http://www.penofin.com
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