Replies

1. 
   jonsherryl | Jul 02, 2004 04:27am | #1

   Pete, if the maple has a pronounced curl to the figure, you should use a dye rather than a penetrating oil stain such as the Minwax you mention. The other option would be to first seal the wood with shellac and then use a pigmented varnish to achieve the color you want.

   The application of a penetrating oil stain onto the raw wood tends to heighten the contrast in curly figure (due to porosity differentials resulting from how the wood fibers approach the surface at different angles). It makes curly figure appear too harsh.  

1. 
   pete1021 | Jul 02, 2004 06:16am | #2

   Wouldn't the stain lay on top of the shellac instead of penatrating. That way i think i could control the color by how heavy i apply the stain.Or how many coats to put down.

   Pete

1. 
   jonsherryl | Jul 02, 2004 06:31pm | #4

   Pete, what you want to avoid, if the maple has curly figure, is putting a penetrating oil stain directly on the raw wood...for the reason I mentioned in the earlier post. Once the wood is sealed, the purpose of what you put on next is simply to color it. You can treat this as a second step prior to applying the top coat finish...but if you use an oil based stain followed by an oil based varnish as your top coat you run the risk of moving the stain around as you apply the top coat.

   Minwax stains do tend to stay in place better than other oil stains I've used and I like Minwax products...but still, a penetrating oil stain is formulated to penetrate and when applied over a sealer coat it can't soak in. The pigments rest on top of the sealer coat and they tend to get pushed around when you brush on the top coat. Personally, I think the better technique is to incorporate the pigment in the top coat varnish before it is applied and keep the amount of pigment lighter than the final hue you want to achieve. This gives you better control in that the color can be built up in thin coats of the pigmented varnish until you have the shade you want...then convert to clear varnish for the final coat(s) that will be rubbed out.

   With all this said, however, using a dye on wood with curly figure is still the better technique, in that the color is in the wood...as opposed to being in the film coat. When the pigment is in the varnish, it tends to mask the figure of the wood and, also, if the varnish gets scratched, the damage shows more than it would if the color is actually imbedded in the wood.

1. 
   pete1021 | Jul 03, 2004 02:19am | #5

        Jon i have never used dyes before, will it keep the wood from blotching.I'm using maple furniture ply and soft maple lumber none of it is curly or really figured. What type of dye to use water base or solvent base, i have a gallon of Fuhr 355 satin and that is water base for a top coat. I will be spraying, no brushes or wipe on its toooo big a project ( 5 pieces ) and two 23" x 72" desk tops. Also will the dyes give me good color consistency between the ply and the lumber.

                  Thanks for all your help Pete

1. 
   jonsherryl | Jul 03, 2004 11:38pm | #6

   Pete, dye minimizes the contrast that would otherwise result from differentials in porosity in that it doesn't leave pigment solids in the pores...But if the maple you're using isn't curly figured, I suspect you may be anticipating a problem that isn't actually there.

   If you do decide to give dye a try, I'd suggest you avoid the spirit (alcohol) type, since the surfaces you're working with are so large and it's a little harder to control dye in a spirit vehicle. If you use water based, be sure it's NGR (non grain raising)...AND be sure to experiment all the way through your finishing technique on scraps before you apply anything to the project itself. This is always a good idea, but it's especially important when you're trying out unfamiliar finishing materials for the first time.

2. 
   Kevin | Jul 04, 2004 06:04am | #7

   Non-figured Maple can and usually will blotch even with dye. I've got some samples at work of Western (Big Leaf) Maple stained with just dye and it's quite blotchy. That was apply the dye directly to the wood. I had no choice because it had to be dark and a wash coat would have been counter productive. Turned out the client didn't like it anyway and I ended up using a completely different approach to a significantly darker finish (on red oak) which they loved. But, I've still got the old blotchy samples.

   Personally, I like reducing dyes with acetone instead of water or alcohol. And I would definitely size the Maple somehow to control blotching. Whether that be with a shellac washcoat or something else. There are a number of ways to skin that particular cat.

   The Independent Voter.com

   "Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud" - Sophocles.

3. 
   jonsherryl | Jul 04, 2004 04:02pm | #8

   Kevin, you'll get no argument from me on the perils of trying to make maple dark. I've always thought of it as a wood that is meant to be blond and if you don't want blond, pick a different species. I've had reasonably good luck tinting it with dilute coats of dye, but you can't push it too dark.

   I'm curious about your comment regarding the use of acetone as a vehicle. It's extremely volatile....with an evaporatiuon rate even quicker than alcohol. How do you control it without leaving lap marks on broad surfaces?

4. 
   Kevin | Jul 05, 2004 02:12am | #9

   hehe... good question, Jon. I almost always apply dyes by spraying it on with a gravity gun. But, that yields unfavorable results when putting a lot on in order to get dark. So, on the Maple I wiped it on. The way I got around lap marks was to apply it twice. The first time left the predictable lap marks. The second application was put on immediately following the first... before all of the solvent from the first had evaporated. Then I treated it basically as a wipe stain by using a slightly moistened wiping rag to wipe it out evenly. I had to do a 4' x 4' sheet of Maple veneered ply and an 8' x 3/4" x about 6" strip of solid wood. The wood was easy to get even. The ply was predictably enough much more difficult to get even. But, using the above method I got it very even... if blotchy.

   The crazy part of this particular story is that I had been handed a glossy furniture catalogue and told to match a picture as my control sample. LOL

   Preemptive Karma

5. 
   pete1021 | Jul 10, 2004 03:11am | #10

   Thanks a lot guys i think i'm going to try the dye.

   Pete-- Deep in Cajun Country

   One Nation UNDER GOD

    

    

   Edited 7/9/2004 8:12 pm ET by pete1021

2. 
   CRAIGCONEY_M | Jul 02, 2004 06:26am | #3

   Pete,

   I use a 50% cut of my top coat, either WB lacquer or WB poly to seal & raise the grain, then sand, stain, then top coat.  This works well for me and I prefer it over the shellac for a sealer.  I find that I get more control out of this method than with shellac.