Replies

1. 
   roc | Dec 03, 2011 02:06am | #1

   Of course if you have been coming to Knots for a while you will

   know what I am goinng to say next . . .

   lay in a good supply of plant misters or buckets and sponges.

   :   )

   On a more sober note :

   I once did an experiment in finishing oils.  I took a sheet of glass and put good size drops of various oils on it and let them "dry".  More than dry what they do is react with the oxygen in the air, cross link VERY VERY S L O W L Y and eventually turn to plastic.

   One oil I used was pure tung oil ( no driers ).

   Another oil was boiled linseed oil from your basic wood finishes supplier.

   The third oil I tried I got a little crazy and put the oil painter's artist oil, linseed oil, on the glass.

   After months of drying I had some fairly cured specimans.

   The tung oil shrank and wrinkled and looked almost crystaline in appearance though to the touch it was rubbery plastic.

   The basic wood finishes boiled linseed oil cured much less wrinkled or frosting.

   The artist grade oil for mixing with oil paint cured in a lump that was surprisingly clear and wrinkle free.

   So there.  You have your clue.

1. 
   swenson | Dec 03, 2011 09:50am | #5

   artist grade linseed

   roc

   Very interesting.  Is artist grade just more pure than raw linseed?  If put on wood in very thin coats, like T&T when used correctly, do you think it would make a good finish?

1. 
   roc | Dec 04, 2011 01:12am | #9

   Nah Swenson you are too practical for this sort of thing

   PS: plane all the original finish off before throwinng any of these new ideas on.

   I am with Steve, of course, on thinking this isn't a good Idea for the average Joe but I still think it would give the LOOK  desired. That is :

   rich, damp looking, in the wood, not glossy.

   You are right, very thin coats over a long period.

   No I don't think it would make a good finish for a dinning table.

   That wouldn't stop ME from using it, enjoying the look and driving every body nuts throwing coasters and place mats under every thing to preserve the original look.

   It is ART after all.  If one wants a bomb proof table get a stainless steel table top.  I worked for an artist for a while that made them and she used a big old disk sander to put swirls and stuff in the surface.  Looked really cool.

   Probably survive a nuclear blast too.  Any body want her phone number ?

    Here is a description of the artist grade linseed oil characteristics on a primed oil painting surface :  It exhibits an excellent resistance to yellowing and is extremely flexible. Use Sun-Thickened Linseed Oil to improve flow and increase gloss. Pre-dilute it with Pure Gum Spirits of Turpentine, Grumtine, or Odorless Paint Thinner.

   http://www.dickblick.com/products/winsor-and-newton-linseed-oils/

   I am not saying I would use this on a table.  It would cost a fortune but of all the finishes I can think of to achieve the in the wood damp look this is probably it.

   Test it and experiment.

   Yep it won't be as valuable with this finish as the original.  Unless one finds the right person at the right time.  yah like that will happen.

   If it provides the look asked for then what the heck.  Enjoy it.

   Probably take a year or more of applying thin coats and letting them dry before putting more on.

   Sounds like the SORT of thing I would do but not specifically.

   and you know what ?

   In the final analysis if a person didn't like it they could plane it all off, ship the table back and get them to put the original finish on again.

   Money is no object right ?

1. 
   swenson | Dec 04, 2011 12:55am | #8

   Thanks for the link to Blick. I’m gonna try the cold pressed virgin linseed oil.. with balsamic vinegar on tomatoes and fresh basal... I sure hope there are no heavy metal dryers in it.

2. 
   woodworker417 | Dec 03, 2011 10:24pm | #6

   Have your or has anyone tried artist grade linseed oil as a wood finish? What type of sheen does it creat -- matte, gloss?  thanks.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Dec 03, 2011 11:23pm | #7

   Artists grade linseed oil differs very little from the commodity linseed oil in the big box stores.  Certainly differences not worth the tremendous difference in price when used as a wood finish..  But, take care, some of the artist's oils will be raw linseed oil that will take just short of forever to cure.. Now there are variants sold in art supply stores, such as stand oil, which have been partially polymerized these might actually show a bit of water resistance and cure to a bit higher sheen.  But even so you can find similar products sold for furniture applications at lower price per ounce.  

   I would never use linseed oil as a stand alone finishing product.  It offers virtually no protection from water, and in some applications appears to encourage the growth of mold.  It oxidizes to dull in short order, requiring frequent refreshing.  In every case where you might think of using just linseed oil, you can be better off using an oil/varnish mix.  This has the appearance of the oil only finish, but with meaningfully greater moisture resistance and durability.  (By the way, pure tung oil is no more acceptable than pure or boiled linseed oil--in fact it dries much more slowly and if applied too quickly has the potential to develop an ugly greyish white frosted appearance that doesn't always appear immediately, but may pop up a few months down the road. )

   As far as the Nakashima furniture--I agree with others that you should work with the maker.  This is potentially collectible furniture whose value could be damaged by non-original, or non-authentic finishes.    

2. 
   Westchester | Dec 03, 2011 07:15am | #2

   Wetted Look

   Any chance to contact the manufacturer and tell them you're not happy.  This is high end furniture and I have to believe they want you satisfied.  I'm thinking they would prefer you use their finishing formulas on their woodwork because if a big split develops they may say it's your fault for using the wrong finish.  Don't guess at this - call them

   SA

1. 
   swenson | Dec 03, 2011 09:31am | #4

   George Nakashima

   Westchester

   I had to laugh when you said  "if a big split develops they may say it's your fault for using the wrong finish."  I think if a big split developes they will throw on another butterfly and charge him more.  GN was known for splits, live edges and butterfly inlays.  Don't get me wrong, I love his work.  One of these days I'm going to try a GN style big slab table with live edges and splits.  I just need five or six guys to help carry the slab down into the shop.

   Take care, swenson

3. 
   woodworker417 | Dec 03, 2011 07:48am | #3

   I will call them today and see what they say... I had asked them when I first got the piece if all of their pieces are finished the same, and they said yes, they are really nice, but really finicky and they scare me a little bit... but i'll try and raise the issue more directly and see what happens... i'm afraid i'll just annoy them and they won't want to have an open minded discussion about it... but ill try...

4. 
   GretchenTHE FIRST | Dec 04, 2011 08:28am | #10

   The "wet test" is a method to

   The "wet test" is a method to determine what wood will look like when finished with a clear finish, such as varnish, shellac, etc. You are fortunate that someone was good enought to show that to you.  The sheen you see is from the kind of finish you put on

   The Minwax stuff you put on is diluted varnish, and polyurethane at that. You have beautiful carefully selected wood. Why cover it with "plastic.

   Obtain a NON-poly varnish such as MacCloskey's and dilute it 50/50 with mineral spirits. Use the wipe on method of finishing and apply 6-8 applications of the dilute finish. The first few coats will look "awful" and you will wonder about this advice. You can apply coats very quickly (the finish should not dry hard). After the third coat, sand it very lightly with very fine sand paper. Be sure to wipe it clean with mineral spirits. Continue. 

   I use satin finish for this application but it is important to keep the matte agents in suspension as you are applying coats. This should let you obtain a wonderul "in the wood" finish for your wood.

1. 
   woodworker417 | Dec 04, 2011 08:47am | #11

   Thanks all for the help. I

   Thanks all for the help.

   I spoke with them yesterday and they indicated that the finish they use is cabot's tung oil, which is an oil/varnish blend... that is the same category of product as the minwax tung oil i applied to the bottom (in a very small area, so no, i have affected the value for those concerned....)   the difference being that he cabot's product seems to leave a dull finish and the minwax seems to leave a bit more gloss and more color and contrast... since yesterday i went out and purchased minwax antique oil, another oil/varnish blend and put a very small swath of that on the bottom... this one seems to produce the best of both worlds, rich in-the-wood look, color, contrst, but minimal if any gloss... i'm certainly not ready to apply this to the whole piece... i also spoke with nakashima yesterday and they said they had no further advice other than a very thin applicatin of mineral oil no more frequently than twice a year and scuffing with 4 0 steel wool and then another coat of cabot's tung oil no more frequently than once every 5 years...

   thanks in advance to all for any further thoughts.

1. 
   roc | Dec 04, 2011 03:01pm | #12

   Further thoughts :

   417,

   I have a question for my own edimification.  :   )

   Is the underside finished by the table maker ?

   Gretchen,

   Thanks,  I copied that into my finishing notes and look forward to trying that out.

   also

   the OP should remove the old finish first if he were to go with your non poly thinned varnish?  Is that correct ?  Or can one apply your finish over the relatively newly applied Cabots from Nakashima ?

   This is a good discussion; up til now I was going to suggest they change the name of Knots to "Molasses".  :   )

2. 
   GretchenTHE FIRST | Dec 04, 2011 04:34pm | #15

   I guess I'd better advise not paying attention to what I suggested because I did not understand that the piece was finished already. Odd that a wet test could be done.

   Mineral oil?  Geez. It isn't a cutting board.  I do NOT understand at all.

1. 
   woodworker417 | Dec 04, 2011 05:20pm | #16

   If you read the nakashima maintenance instructions, posted above, you will see that they recommend a periodic, albeit infrequent, mineral oil rub.

3. 
   SteveSchoene | Dec 04, 2011 10:29pm | #17

   Nakashima obviously wants the minimalist finish.  Enough to get at least some of the effects of wetting out the wood, but keeping an unfinished look.  If you change that you do run the risk of reducing resale value.  That would certainly occur if you put on a film finish since that would really change the appearance.  But adding a coat or two of an oil/varnish mix, being sure to wipe off all excess vigorously won't be a dramatic change, and will over time return to more of the original look. 

   You do not need to remove old finish to apply an additional coat of oil/varnish mix, whether Cabots or other.  I would clean thoroughly first, including a good scrub with naphtha to remove excess oil, if perchance any mineral oil had been applied, or the like.  If you wipe off excess sufficiently, you won't build up a gloss surface which would be a large departure to the original spirit.

   Of course, you do own the piece, and can paint it florescent orange if you want, though that is both a sacriledge and akin to lighting cigars with $50 bills.  Varnishes could be applied directly over the cabots oil/varnish mix and should adhere fine, although polyurethane varnishes could have more adhesion issues (and though not as deadly a sin as flourescent paint would also be very much out of the Nakashima spirit.) 

1. 
   woodworker417 | Dec 05, 2011 07:41am | #18

   Thanks Steve -- that is very helpful.  I have two follow up questions, if you wouldn't mind.  First, in using the naphtha to remove mineral oil, can I just use a soft rag, and to what if any degree will that process remove the original cabot's finish?   Second, how much variation in effect and quality would you say there is among the numerous oil/varnish blends on the market?  Are any known to be "better" than others, or known to produce more or less satin vs gloss effects?  Also, do these products generally increase color and contrast with additional coats, if applied correctly?  (I know, that was more than 2 questions..... But thx).... T

5. 
   woodworker417 | Dec 04, 2011 03:07pm | #13

   Yes, the underside of the piece -- which is a rocking chair -- has the same finish....

1. 
   roc | Dec 04, 2011 03:35pm | #14

   Ah

   A chair.  Well that is all different then.  Hmmmm.

   Thanks

   Photos would be fun to see if ever you find time for that.

   Swenson,

   you hypnotized me into thinking this was a table.  Butterflies and all . . . z m z m z m z m

   (that's my "I'm hypnotized" sound. )

   Oh, and how did the salad dressing turn out ?  I wouldn't worry about the cobalt; after the reactor disasters this year, and just a little mutation on our part, soon it will be one of the food groups.

6. 
   SteveSchoene | Dec 14, 2011 09:36am | #19

   Naphtha will remove uncured oil ,such as mineral oil or oily dirt, but it will have no affect at all on the Cabot's oil/varnish. 

   Unless you already have the tung oil, there really isn't any reason to pay so much more compared to boiled linseed oil.  The color difference is small, and, remember, you shouldn't be leaving enough on the surface for the color of the material to make any difference.  The amount of thinner is not going to affect the ease of application and won't affect the final look.  It will have evaporated well before the oil and varnish have cured so it will have very little impact on the depth of penetration.   When you are vigorously wiping the surface dry it will be wiping off oil/varnish and not much if any of the thinner. 

   More than likely, one coat over the already finished surface should be enough.  And, more than two suggests you are building a film on the surface.  But this is the wrong material to use in building a film.  Oil/varnish mix makes a very soft film that's not going to stay looking good for long.  If you really have to have more sheen, then use a wipe on varnish.  It will reduce the economic value of the nakashima furniture, but you are certainly free to do that if you want.

1. 
   woodworker417 | Dec 14, 2011 03:44pm | #20

   Thank you Steve -- I assume to remove a cured oil finish you'd recommend sandpaper?  Thank you.

2. 
   woodworker417 | Dec 14, 2011 03:44pm | #21

   Thank you Steve -- I assume to remove a cured oil finish you'd recommend sandpaper?  Thank you.

7. 
   woodworker417 | Dec 14, 2011 06:31pm | #22

   Got it, thank you!

8. 
   congodog | May 27, 2012 04:46pm | #23

   EGADS, MAN!

   Do not violate this important work.  Send it back for rework.

   Poor old George would be spinning in his grave if he thought the finish of his art was determined by internet forums!