Shop almost completed
You asked for it (well I think one person asked me to write and post pictures.) After years of building, the shop, which is actually the main purpose of the new barn, it is finally getting to be a shop. It is complete except for installing dust collection and such little things as a security camera. After spending this much time, it hardly seems real. If you have an interest, (this is long), please read on and make any suggestion or criticism you may have. I am open to suggestions. Thanks to the help from Forest Girl and other participants of this forum, I am learning to take and post pictures of which I enclose.
Some years ago a friend mentioned that he was thinking of building a 24 by 24 shop with a gambrel roof so it would look like a conventional barn. I stood there with mouth agape and replied that I had been thinking of building just that very shop for years. Well he built his shop and several years went by before I was able to slow down enough from other responsibilities and gather enough cash to build mine. In the mean time, I saw his and noted that it was woefully undersized for his use. You couldn’t even walk anywhere without stepping on or over something. Even though he had a “hay mow” to store his lumber, he had lumber, along with tools and other stuff all over shop. I decided to build mine somewhat larger so finally came up with a 40 by 42 building consisting of a full basement, main floor, and a hay mow. The main floor contains the shop (24 by 42 outside measurements) and what I call a machine room which is 16 by 42 which now contains some junk including my son’s car. The mow was intended mainly for lumber storage and the basement for firewood storage, general storage and a 3/4 bath, even though located within 100 ft. of the house.
We placed the building so that the front main floor exits to the original terrain level and because the cite was on a hillside, this conveniently put the basement entrance, on the opposite side of the building, also on the original terrain level. In order to have a sufficient driveway in front, many many truck loads of earth had to be removed and a retaining wall built to hold back the resulting bank.
The cite selected was also rather thickly wooded with poplar, cherry, and red and white oak and one red maple which I had sawn and put in the mow to dry. I know it wasn’t prepared right but hope I can get some good from it. If I had had previous access to the advice of this forum, I would have treated the lumber differently.
The trimmings from the trees heated the shop for about three winters. The shop is heated with an outside wood fired boiler supplying heated water to tubing in the concrete floor. About the same time I was installing the boiler for the barn we had geothermal heat and cooling put in the house.
The shop is insulated with approximately four inches of foam sprayed on the walls and ceiling. Besides the bathroom downstairs, it also has the convenience of a phone and an intercom connected with the house and a security system that works in conjunction with the house.
An underground electric wiring system was installed with a 400 amp main and 200 amp branches each in the barn and house and a 100 amp in the garage which sits between the two. The shop has 120 volt receptacles at about six foot intervals on the wall and six ceiling drop receptacles. There are three 220 volt receptacle next to each of the six 110 volt ceiling receptacles plus a 100 amp sub panel in the basement.
I have heard the best way to arrange tools is to place cutouts on a paper drawing. I just didn’t get anywhere using that method so finally resorted to putting tools on mobile bases and moving them around on the floor. I have been working with 16 foot boards and just can’t arrange the tools far enough apart to have a workable situation. Maybe a shop like this just isn’t made for tooling boards that long. I suppose that over time a workable situation can be attained but would like to get a practical arrangement before permanently installing a dust collector so am looking for suggestions. Lord willing and my health holds out, I will be building and installing more tool cabinetry and benches over time.
As mentioned, the shop is 24 X 42 with ten foot ceilings, It is lit with thirty two four foot T5 light bulbs contained in eight fixtures which gives lots of near shadow free light. The shop windows consist of glass from four patio doors plus one double hung window. Because of the surrounding trees and the cloudy days we have here, I have to use the lights anyway so I think of the windows as somewhat of a waste of wall space, heat and light. If I were doing it over I would put considerably less windows in the shop. I have received many ideas from this forum. Unfortunately, most of these ideas were received too late to implement them. As old Mac Donald says “have a good day.”
Edited 11/4/2009 9:01 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Replies
Get some graph paper and make small rectangular representations of all your "things". Then lay them out on the graph paper until you arrive at the "perfect" solution.
Only one suggestion on a shop that nice; get rid of that wall clock and install a beer tap! LOL
Enjoy and congrats.!
Mack
"Close enough for government work=measured with a micrometer, marked with chalk and cut with an axe"
Get some graph paper and make small rectangular representations of all your "things".
I sort of tried that (I tried Grizzly's layout program) but couldn't figure how much free space I needed around the "things". As I mentioned, I have the machines on castors so it is not hard to push them around but I've concluded there ain't no "perfect" solution. And the clock has to stay. How else would I tell if it is warm or humid enough.
Now that's a layout! Beautifully done all the way around.
I wish you many years of fine woodworking in that nice new woodshop.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
If you have FWW 174 or can open https://www.finewoodworking.com/Workshop/WorkshopArticle.aspx?id=29508
John Yurko's article gives some machine templates with typical infeed / outfeed zones. You take the page to an enlarging photocopier and you have a good start.
Beats rolling all of that iron around!Don
Wow, what a great shop building. Congrats.
Thank you, Now if I could only use it instead of working on the house and landscaping.
I have just posted my adoption papers to you. Please sign and return asap. Almost finished packing my bags.
What a great complex, I am so envious, I am currently working in a 6'x7' porch along with all the boots, coats etc.
It's beautiful mate LOL,
Bruce
Adoption?! Well, we were just talking it over and happened to look over your profile to find you were retired. Ma says that if were to adopt that we should get some one a little younger - someone that I wouldn't have to call "Dad." Hah Thanks for the complement though.
Tinkerer,
Beautiful! You should be very proud.
You wouldn't have to adopt me, but could I just come and sit in it for a while?
--jonnieboy
Hey, I'd be proud if someone from this forum would drop by. I think you are a little far and until now, it seemed that everyone was too far. I've seen one poster from the far end of the state (West Virginia) and one from Pittsburgh. Now out of nowhere I get an email from some one from Morgantown that had seen my profile. Always wished there was a woodworkers group that I could visit.
Edited 11/8/2009 12:40 am ET by Tinkerer3
Tinkerer,
Perhaps it is a little far to pop in for a visit. I'm happy you got an e-mail from someone closer to home. I know what you mean about wanting to have others nearby to share thoughts and projects with. It seems there are lots of woodworkers in this town, I think, but they sure keep a low profile. But hey, nothing wrong with Knots!
Congratulations on the shop. I'll share photos when mine gets closer to completion.
--jonnieboy
I eagerly anticipate seeing those pictures. Maybe we can share notes as things progress.
Tinkerer,
Compare notes, that would be wonderful. It could be a very long winter.
-jonnieboy
That is beautiful! You make me jealous.
tony
Tink,
I have been drooling on my keyboard.
That is more than a shop.
Congratulations.
Let me know if you are going to take on apprentices.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well, thanks. I could probably make much better use of a teacher than an apprentice. I'm sure all of you guys would fill that bill. At my age, (76) I'm sure It would have been better to have saved the time and money it took to build it and to have rented an old garage in which to build furniture in instead but I kinda like to see it standing there in my yard.
That's a nice set-up there Tink. Now you need to get some dust and grime evenly spaced around as when I first saw the pic of the outside of the shop I immediately thought you purchased the shop from "Mr. Clean". If I tried to move my shop into your neighbor-hood.. your neighbors would get a restraining order to stop the show. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Fantastic place you have there...Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
"......when I first saw the pic of the outside of your shop, I immediately thought you purchased the shop from Mr. Clean."
Now that is interesting. When we first moved this house off the interchange of two interstate highways, we had a mess. Our local newspaper had a section reserved for "the eyesore of the week." My wife used to dread the thought that someone would take a picture of our house and send it to the paper. Our good neighbors never did.
When we built the barn, we had to clear out some store rooms from the apartments we sold and we had no where to put the junk except to pack the garage full and what was left over we stuck out in the driveway or yard somewhere. At the time we had five vehicles including our son's car who was in Iraq. That mess was worse than when we moved the house.
When we moved to Morgantown some forty years ago, we were impressed with the fact that a real scrumptious new house might be located next door to an old eyesore. I think your shop would be okay here and from the pics that you have posted, I wish it was.
I bet when you saw the mess "inside" of the shop, it was a let down. I'll clean it up, Lord willin and the creek don't rise. By the way, we do have a pretty creek in the back yard with two series of rapids. When I had my hearing, and before we got AC, I used to like to open the window in the summertime and listen the the creek crashing down towards the river about a mile down stream. Now, that's fun to go to sleep with.
Edited 11/7/2009 11:20 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Listening to the creek run and rain hitting a tin roof are probably things of the past "for most part" but things some of us can appreciate. There are many now that have probably heard either with the rain on a tin roof the more dominant in that statement. If you ask someone in my shop to pass the "ice-pick" I use (family ice pick when we didn't have a modern refrigerator but did have and "ice box") to punch starter holes for drilling a hole... the answer would probably be, "what is an ice-pick"? :>)Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
Hi SargeOne of my grandsons found my cache of vinyl LPs and asked what they were. He thought my "old CDs were cool".
I guess also there is a couple of generations of digital watch kids who don't know what anticlockwise is.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
And you would definitely confuse them if you told them they must be played on 78 speed as opposed to 45 or they will sound like aliens that are visiting from another planet. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..
Regards...Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
How about a 'skate key' or a 'button hook'. I used the latter to pull my ice-skate laces tighter.Speaking of ice boxes (We were, weren't we?) I remember when my Dad bought us our first refrigerator. That replaced the four-sided card in the window that told the ice man whether you wanted 25#, 50#, 75# or 100# piece chopped off his big block with an ICE PICK.At any rate, the new refrigerator was the one that had a large condenser coil on the top. The payment method was unique: there was a coin box on the side. It cost 25 cents a day to keep the electricity turned on. I was really impressed to hear the Boing Boing on Sunday nights when my Dad plunked 7 quarters in the box to keep it cold for another week.I don't remember when or how GE came and collected the quarters.Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Hi FrostyThose iceboxes were great,I remember as kids we snuck in with a screwdriver and pinched pieces of ice to suck on a hot Summers day.Our first refrigerator was a kerosine powered (lit a flame under it to keep it cold?) Can also remember my grandmothers Coolgardie meat safe, a zinc mesh enclosure covered with wet hessian bags, outside in the breeze. Used to hang from the rafters on the verandah.Was on a trip in the outback of Oz and we stopped at a roadside joint, miles from the end of the Earth, for a beer. The first mouthful tasted a bit warm so asked if his refrigerator was broken. He opened a door to a store room that contained a pile of bottles covered with wet bags, felt the bags and said 'Nope, its working fine'.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
I thought the Falklands were cool enough all by themselves. Just kidding.We visited the Falklands about 15 years ago on a stop after our trip to the Antarctic. I was amazed to see Palm Trees growing on the property where we were served tea and cookies. It was perfectly beautiful: warm, sunny, clear waters that reminded me of a Caribbean lagoon. We visited both New Island and Carcass Island.The next day, at Stanley, it was rather nasty. The roughest sea we encountered on the entire trip.Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Hi Frosty"cool enough' you ain't kidding. Not that far from midsummer and it was snowing here today. In the middle of shearing, don't think the sheep are too keen loosing their winter woolies. We're about 750 miles from the Antarctic Peninsular and right in the Roaring Forties so we have a fair amount of wind chill factor as well.
We are here teaching at a remote settlement for a few years before the cook hangs up the chalk. It was a bit of a shock coming from tropical Cairns in Oz to here.You visited probably one of the most beautiful spots in the Islands when you went to New Island. Its' all beautiful though and the wildlife is stupendous and almost sits up and poses when you produce a camera.My one bitch, NO BLOODY TREES. (except for those few imported palms) Too windy and no bees. Anything you use is imported (pine or pine), drift wood or salvage from any of the hundreds of wrecks around the Islands.Cheerswot
I started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
Are you about as far south as you can get without setting foot on Antartica?
Hi TinkOn the Islands themselves we are,(southern tip of the east island) but I think that Cape Horn is a wee bit closer.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
I thought you were supposed to bring the sheep into your bedroom for the first few nights after they were shorn.Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
FrostyIts bad enough outside around the house where they huddle out of the (cold) wind. Don't want all those little black ball bearings in the bed room. Only place I let sheep in the house is in the freezer.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
What are you doing shearing sheep this time of year. We always sheared and lambed in the early Spring when they could look forwards to the warm summer and grass. Oh, you're in the southern hemisphere. Do you call it Summer when we call it winter and Spring when we call it Fall or do you just have warm Winters and cold Summers?
Edited 11/11/2009 10:26 pm ET by Tinkerer3
TinkLooking at the snow falling at the moment I think we have bloody cold winters and cold summers. Don't know whats going on. Once upon a time we had lovely warm summers, used to get up to 8-10 degrees C.I think the earth must be getting cooler!!! Your right,NH seasons are 180 out of phase with us, just like we are up and you guys are down on the correct maps.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
Skate keys were as important as a kid as P-38 can openers were to combat troops that ate C-rations before the dehydrated meals they have now. How about our first TV.... black and white but if you had crayons you then had color. A bit hard to keep up the correct color with the screen scenes changing rapidly but... came in handy latter in life when lightning quick reflexes were required on occasion. ha..ha..
Have a good day, Frosty...Sarge..
Woodworkers' Guild of Georgia
I seem to remember we had a green square of vinyl like film "a magic screen" that we put on the B/W tv screen and colored on it with magic crayons along with the character on the show. I think it was called "Winky Dink and You". 1954 or 58? Probably the first interactive tvI remember watching TV the first time on a 3" or 4"round screen. Inside it was RCA Tube city. They broadcast 3 hours a day.P-38s -- good piece of gear! I think you can still get them at some of those mystery Army-Navy shops on Buford Highway.Take care
BB
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=youtube+%22Winky+Dink+and+You%22.&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7ADRA_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=RbX8SuTnHsSInQe26fycCw&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CA4QqwQwAA#
I remember those 3" round tubers, they had a yellowish screen that showed semi-realistic shadow pictures. They were not only entertainment but the living room heater as well. Channel surfing was easy, there were only 3.
Still have a p38 on my key ring and a couple in the bug out bag.
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
thank goodness you have enough sense to paint the walls white! That helps wo much with being able to SEE! the last issue of the FW shops featured three shops and every one was way to dark for me. All they have to do is paint the walls white and the increased reflectivity will improve their ablity to see and save on lighting!!
sarge,i use not one, but two, re-conditioned ice picks. one is for starter holes in plaster or dry wall and such, while the other is finely ground, sharpened and polished and is used to transfer lines from the pin board to the tail board.
eef
My friends in Morgantown tell me that you know you're in WV when you see a cabinet saw up on concrete blocks in the front yard. ;-)
tink,
that second picture...um, is that a parking lot?
eef
"parking lot"
I guess you could park there and we do but we call it a driveway. You have to watch where you park as not to restrict backing out of the garage or barn. The second pic and the third pic are of the same area. The reason I included the third pic was to show that there was a wall holding back the bank and that there wasn't just a border to the driveway. Really quite hilly here. Behind the house is a cliff that drops some forty into the creek below. The creek consists of a series of rapids that roar after a rainstorm.
Edited 11/10/2009 10:42 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Edited 11/10/2009 10:44 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Tink-3,
Beautiful shop and location too.
I think as soon as you get a LARGE supply of hardwood in there and start working on several projects at the same time, the most efficient and user-friendly machine layout with dictate itself. Wish I were closer so I could see it in person and , of course, meet you. Congrats.
I think we all know where you are going to be hiding out all winter long!
Best regards, Patrick
Thank you so much. Actually, I have more than I will ever use of walnut and oak grown on this farm. I don't have a lot of maple. Yah, I'd like to show the place off but no one around seems interested.
Tink
"I think we all know where you are going to be hiding all winter long."
I admit to spending quite a bit of time out there but right now I don't have the heat on yet and the wife has given me the responsibility of reconstituting the house. So we'll se how much time I can get in both places. I would like to finish the house also. It has been almost thirty years since I went through the house and have about half of it left to do.
Edited 11/10/2009 10:45 pm ET by Tinkerer3
TinkSounds like you are a bit slow getting things finished like I am.
Standing family joke, kitchen and wardrobe doors only get put on the week before the house goes on the market.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
Yah, sounds like home.
"Standing family joke, kitchen and wardrobe doors only get put on the week before the house goes on the market."
hey, we must be related . . . . same at my house. I have been telling my wife "You have to enjoy the journey and not focus on the end", but she is not buying it any longer.
"I have been telling my wife "You have to enjoy the journey and not focus on the end", but she is not buying it any longer."We must be related or at least our wives are. I sometimes think they have had a 'sense of humor bypass when born.'wot
PS Glad she's not interested in Knots other wise I'm toast.I started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
Sir..
You are way out of my class. In structures and woodworking tools! That is not to say that is a bad thing. I sure wish I had your problem with lighting...
Very beautiful shop and all pictures posted. In fact, I took your first picture of the flower bed for my PC background picture :>).
Well, I wish I had the experience and know how of all you guys. Never satisfied, are we? I should have labeled the pics. The flower bed marks the beginning of the driveway from the road, the next pic is proceeding down the driveway, and then I showed the bottom of the driveway with the wall before actually entering the shop.
Tink
"I think the earth is getting cooler!!!!!!"
Yes, It is that condition that we call "the global cooling effect". Many people are concerned about the earth's changing temperature.
In West Virginia, we don't much have directions. If you mention a direction, most natives, will just stand there and think for a few seconds to get what you are saying. Every thing is from this tree to that mountain or just follow the stream. When they do print a local map, it is unusual to orient it true North and South. I must admit, though, I have rarely see a map where the top is facing south. North and South poles are arbitrary. I suppose the fact that most of the earth's population or the mappers were from the northern hemisphere and thought they were standing upright. Ha ha.
Edited 11/17/2009 3:11 pm ET by Tinkerer3
Hi Tink>In West Virginia, we don't much have directions.< I kinda believe that mate, went lookin on my school atlas for West Virginia and after an hour I found it. In the EAST!!!! Most of those maps were drawn by them old timers who actually thought the earth was round. Modern research by Terry Pratchett has found that the earth is flat and balances on giant elephants and turtles.wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
West Virginia is in the East, North Carolina is in the South and South Dakota is in the North.
Hi TinkSounds like some of your map makers orter get their compass'sssss (is that enough esses?) re-calibrated. Guess they didn't have GPS back then. Brings up another point. Just as there is a couple of generations of digital watch kids not knowing what anti clockwise is, will anyone in 10 years know how to read a compass?wotI started out with nothing...and I still have most of it left!
Can you recalibrate a compass? or do you just have to know were magnetic North is. It varies from year to year. Decleanation . Good maps have the year and current deviation is marked so you can account for the shift. Very important if you are hiking thru 32 miles of muskeg and bush. All the old survey cuts had re grown.When in Cadets I was very good at orientering. not spelling?My daughters were in Cubs ( didn't like Brownies}. one evening the scout master calls me over. I just can't get this compass working. needle was jumping around. I just about leaked laughing inside. I said , Stan get outside, out of the metal building, So we go outside and be darned if the needle didn't stay nice and calm.So I ended up teaching the basics to the kids. I told them were would take off our metal helmets, and set our weapon away so it did not effect the compass.counter-clock wise means scroll back on your Ipod:)
Great post ..
I have my old 1960 vintage Military Compass. I can go out into my yard, in the same place, and get a bit different reading every day.
I have no reason why. Maybe the metal buttons in my shirt or the belt buckle?
One degree off can send you off miles for a long distance!
And the Military gave us a Compass and we had all sorts of metal things on us to carry along when using it! Should I put my old M1 rifle 500 feet away to use my compass?
Will,The compasses were designed that way to confuse the enemy if captured.BB
"One degree off can send you off miles for a long distance!"My cousin, after his military service, flew as a navigator for Flying Tigers. This was in the days of celestial navigation with star-sights out of a dome on top.On one trans-Pacific flight, destination a small island. he was finally able to get a 'location fix' through a hole in the clouds. According to his calculations they were waaay off-course. He went up to the cockpit and found the pilot flying by magnetic compass heading - with his metal flashlight leaning against the compass.That's when he decided that there had to be a safer occupation and he quit his job.Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Frosty,
I was thinking about your signature “If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.”
Would that be from drilling oil wells? Then agin it could become a huge pond..........
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
On a serious note, Bob, I am always amazed to read that at one time the Sahara was a vast green area with plenty of water. "Man" certainly cannot have caused that anymore than change the magnetic pole from North to South - several times.Oh - and coal in Antarctica.Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Funny, I used to sell sand to the Saudi's..... Imagine that, one big kitty litter box full of sand, and they paid me for more. Shipped all the way from the US of A.
Morgan <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Is that equivalent to selling sea water to the Hawaiian islanders?
May I ask?What did they pay you with? More sand, oil or dollars?Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
Letter of Credit paid through the bank in US $.
The sand I sold them is sharp silica sand, used for water filtering in plants. They had no source for that type of sand, everything was round and not silica based. One of my good friends, who is a better salesman than I will ever be, says I am the king of sales. But I never have sold a frig to a lapplander...
AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
That's really neat. Good going.Frosty“If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert,
in 5 years there’d be a shortage of sand.” Milton Friedman
On ships, where the steering compass is surrounded by lots of metal you do have to swing the compass to recalibrate it. It is adjusted by moving the cast iron navigator's balls (quadrantal balls) and the heeling magnets, to compensate for all that metal. There was still deviation between the Compass reading and the Magnetic heading, let alone the variation between the magnetic course and the True course. (Variation is also called declination). These relationships are summarized by asking Can dead Men vote Twice while remembering that you add east correcting. Of course sailers away from home might find it easier to remember that True virgins Make dull Companions.
Don't ask how I remember that the distance markers that denoted how far apart ships where when doing underway replenishment at sea are in the color sequence red, yellow, blue, white, green.
Don't ships use GPS nowadays?
Yes, but when I was in the Navy, our ship had Loran, where and when it worked, that was housed in a box about 3 feet tall, and about 1 1/2 ft. wide and deep. It's read-out was in the form of two TDs (time difference numbers) which could then be plotted on specialized charts which had the TD lines. Interpolation was also used. Mostly we did "piloting navigation", where we determined position by plotting bearings of charted objects on shore, such as light houses and steeples. But it helps to have 3 guys taking bearings, a phone talker to record them and a First Class Quartermaster to plot them on the chart.
Using paper charts and piloting techniques may be out of fashion, but it is still a wise idea , because just when everything is going wrong, one of the first things to fail is the electrical system.
Great shop, I'm envious.
Have a great Thanksgiving,
Thank you, I would share it with you but I can't break any loose.
don,
perhaps a belated reply...
the first one i saw was back in the old country and me about 2. all the kids gathered around the small diameter screen, staring at it like, er, um, yeah, like they do today. can still remember what i thought of it, "big deal". and that pretty much sums up how i still feel about tv. gave it up about 5 years ago.
eef
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