Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Mar 26, 2008 01:59am | #1

   Depending on how heavy you spray you shouldn't have a problem.  It is desirable to have dye that dissolves in a different solvent than the over coat, just as you have it.  To be safe, you should prepare a scrap board as you spray the dye.  If there is excess dye on the surface from the spraying it might be lifted by the mechanical action of wiping on the waterlox.  In that case, you could spray a coat of shellac over the dye (areosol would work fine.)

1. 
   Lindau | Mar 26, 2008 04:12am | #3

   Steve, so instead of a problem, it's the ideal situation to have water soluble dye followed by oil based. I'll definetly use a scrap board first. Another thing I'm thinking about is the heavy absorption of the dye in the end grain, like the front and rear edge of the seat and the front edge of the arms. Would a light coat of shellac at these places help to keep them from going too dark? I'm only going to use a very light application of the dye, almost like a toner. Also, even though I 've pre wet and sanded before the dye, I plan on rubbing it out with steel wool to knock the grain down again, that should also help with any exess dye. Thanks for your response. Bill

2. 
   user-83153 | Mar 26, 2008 02:01am | #2

   Lindau,

   You said you are going to use a water soluble dye and then you asked about the colorfastness of oil soluble dye. Which do you plan to use? You definitely do not want to use a dye that is soluble by the wipe on finish you plan to use. You will have one hell of a mess on your hands.

   I have heard that Moser dyes are not as colorfast as dyes such as Transfast (not Transtint) which would work great in this situation.

1. 
   Lindau | Mar 26, 2008 04:17am | #4

   I'm planning to use the water soluble because I read that the oil soluble wasn't as colorfast. Now I know that since I'm using an oil based finish, the water soluble dye is the way to go. Thanks for the tip about Transfast, but I already have the Moser's.

1. 
   user-83153 | Mar 26, 2008 05:40am | #5

   Lindau,

   OK, Now I got you. Yeah you always want to avoid a dye that is soluble by your topcoat, especially if it is applied by brush or wipe-on. You can even get problems when you are spraying if you get to heavy handed with the first couple of coats after the dye.

   Try wetting the end grain with water before you apply the dye to cut down on the amount of dye absorbed. As always test all steps on scrap before applying to your project. I usually like the contrast of the darker end grain personally.

                   Good luck, Rob

1. 
   Lindau | Mar 26, 2008 02:44pm | #6

   Rob, wetting the end grain first sounds like a plan. Thanks for your response. Bill

3. 
   Woodrat1 | Mar 26, 2008 03:50pm | #7

   Lindau,

   Some of the information in this article may be of some
   help to you. Some of the prep work and application of
   the dye may apply to what you plan on doing.

   http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30182

   Bill-

   http://www.franklinwoodwright.com
4. 
   tkbob | Mar 26, 2008 08:26pm | #8

   I just built some stools made of maple and used thinned shellac for the end grain.  I didnt get to technical with the cut, I just thinned a 2lb cut of pre mixed shellac by eye.  It was my first try using this precess and I was happy with the results.   

5. 
   Lindau | Apr 14, 2008 03:56pm | #9

    Using the advice from the above posters, here are the results. The steps I took:              wet the wood, sanded when dry, sprayed Moser's Golden Amber Maple water soluble with HVLP, used a sponge to wipe the runs. There were a couple of rough places that, against better judgement I tried to fix, but only made them worse. Is there a name for this? So after knocking the grain down with steel wool, I sprayed again. After that dried, I rubbed with steel wool and applied the spar varnish thinned with paint thinner, wipe on,wipe off. Next day rubbed again with the wool and applied another coat of the thinned varnish. Four coats total. Thanks again to everyone that offered advice. Bill

   
6. 
   TaunTonMacoute | Apr 14, 2008 04:28pm | #10

   Oh My God.  You're going to raise the grain by putting water on bare wood?  Won't it get ruined?

   Good God, where are the varnish police to tell you how wood must be protected from water at all cost? 

1. 
   Lindau | Apr 14, 2008 05:06pm | #11

   TaunTon, I don't know much about this, only that it's a standard practice before applying the aniline dye. By knocking down the grain before applying the water soluble dye, there isn't as much raising of the grain the second time, so there isn't so much of the dye rubbed out. By the time I had rubbed it out three times, there was almost no raising of the grain. Some of the expert finishers in this forum might be able to answer this better. Bill

1. 
   TaunTonMacoute | Apr 14, 2008 05:25pm | #12

   Just being facetious.

   Edited 4/14/2008 10:25 am ET by TaunTonMacoute

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 14, 2008 09:41pm | #13

   Pre-raising grain is a long time standard.  Knocking down the grain is best done with sandpaper instead of steel wool because it cuts them off cleaner.  But, particularly if I will be using shellac over the water based dye I don't bother to raise the grain, or to knock down the grain raised by the dye before applying the first shellac coat.  Shellac dries quickly and has the effect of stiffening the raised grain allowing it to be sanded or scraped off quite efficiently at that time, and with less risk of sanding enough to disturb the dye. 

1. 
   Lindau | Apr 14, 2008 10:01pm | #14

   Steve, the first time I raised the grain, I sanded it with 320.  Would you have used shellac over the dye is this case? Give me some feedback about how to make it look better next time. Bill

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 15, 2008 05:51am | #15

   Sanding with 320 should work well.  You do have to remember not to oversand, or you cut into new fibers that would raise when water is next applied.  This a perfectly good procedure.  But sanding off raised grain after the first coat of finish works well too, and works paticularly well when the first coat is shellac (or lacquer) which dry quite hard and sand well.  Varnishes, and especially polyurethane varnishes, are softer and don't sand quite as crisply so pre-raising grain and sanding before the first coat of the finish makes more sense. 

   These are all fine points, at the most basic level it is six one way, and a half dozen the other.  As long as you don't cut through the dye at any stage it should all end up looking the same after a couple of coats of finish that have been sanded smooth. 

2. 
   blewcrowe | Apr 15, 2008 05:45pm | #16

   Steve I find this very interesting. This is something I've always wrestled with, because that little bit of sanding on the dried dye coat tends to release or remove some color.

   So after you dye, you go straight to shellac, and THEN do the grain knockoff?

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 15, 2008 06:09pm | #17

   Yes.  The only negative is that the grain might not be knocked off quite so short, but I've never been able to see that at all. 

2. 
   blewcrowe | Apr 15, 2008 06:29pm | #18

   Well then you just saved me from a headache. I'm gonna write 100 times on the blackboard ........

   "I ainta gonna knock the raised grain off afore I shellac."

   "I ainta gonna knock the raised grain off afore I shellac."

   "I ainta gonna knock the raised grain off afore I shellac."

   "I ainta gonna knock the raised grain off afore I shellac."