Replies

1. 
   nikkiwood | Apr 12, 2005 11:35pm | #1

   A great sealer for that pupose is Zinsser's Seal Coat -- a thinned down, dewaxed shellac.

   Do you intend to stain this pine before varnishing?

   "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
   -- Bertrand Russell

2. 
   Tao | Apr 13, 2005 01:12am | #2

   A shop I ran made over a million board feet of knotty pine furniture while I was there, and we never had a problem with blotching. We never used prestains, conditioners or washcoats. Here is what worked for us:

   We applied only enough stain to develop the color we wanted. We could have gone without wiping altogether, but we did wipe the wood lightly to bring up the grain.

   Woods generally blotch because parts of the wood absorb more stain than other parts. If you don't give the wood excess stain to absorb, it won't blotch. Spraying works best for using this principle, but you can get similar results with careful hand application. The main thing is to not have to wipe the stain back to get the color you want.

   Practice on scrap.

   Michael R

1. 
   nikkiwood | Apr 16, 2005 06:40am | #7

   It's hard to argue with a technique that worked for a million board feet of pine. What kind of stain were you using? Were you spraying it?I have never (ever) had any luck (as far as blotching is concerned) with a regular penetraing oil stain on pine -- no matter how deftly or gingerly I tried to apply it. Gel stains worked ok, though. But I still could not get any nice looking consistency without using a sealer or conditioner. But my experience trying to stain pine probably extends to a couple hundred board feet -- certainly not a million. "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
   -- Bertrand Russell

1. 
   Tao | Apr 16, 2005 07:31pm | #8

   We had several different finishing shedules over the years, some involving the full treatment of dye stain, pigmented stain, glaze, and flyspecking, cowtailing, etc., some more simple.  Our materials were custom formulated by Lilly and Pratt & Lambert, but I can tell you what I use in custom finishes that gives the same performance:

   First, I spray all stains.  Can't remember tha last time I used any other application method, but a paint pad or lambs wool applicator might be a second best choice.  Probably not a rag or brush.

   For dye stains, I would use TransTints or another liquid dye stain concentrate that uses metallized dyes.  In my experience they are very easy to use, give the best colors, and are very light fast, since they are very much akin to carpet dyes.

   Dye stain should be mixed so it gives you the color you want with a single, "just wet" application of stain, and can be applied with or without wiping.  Wiping will increase the contrast between early and late wood, while not wiping gives a flatter look, which is often desirable with pine.  I dilute TransTints with alcohol, acetone, MEK, or a mixture of alcohol and lacquer thinner, depending on the handling characteristica and the look I am trying to get. I never dilute with water, because of uneven penetration and grain raising. 

   One of the nice things about Transtints when making samples is that you can use just an ounce or two of thinner and count the drops you use to get the right color depth.  There are about 30 drops to a milliliter, so accurately making big batches from small samples is very easy.

   Beware that dye stains appear to lighten drastically as they dry, but "come back" when topcoated.  Color can be checked by wiping with mineral spirits or VM&P naphtha.

   For pigmented stains, my favorites are Behlen's 15 minute stains, or Mohawk's equivalent (I forget the name).  I usually buy a stain that is close to the color I want, and kick it with Master Colors to get the exact shade I want.  Again the stain has to be diluted so it gives you the color intensity you want with a single "just wet" application.  Let it bite for 30 to 60 seconds, and wipe lightly to pick up any runs and to bring up the grain, which you can do safely if you have used a dye stain to establish a base color - you don't have to worry about developing too much contrast, because the dye stain establishes the lightest color you will see.

   By "just wet" I mean the material goes on wet enough to flow out, but soaks in and flashes off in a matter of seconds. 

   This may be more than you wanted to know, but it a successful technique for getting a high end look to your finishes, especially on less glamorous woods like pine, birch, poplar, etc.  The main idea is to only apply the amount of color to the wood that you want to end up with.

   This may seem like a lot of work, but it's quicker than it sounds.  Once I have my colors mixed, I can stain a 60" dresser twice, seal, scuff sand and topcoat twice in about 2 hours actual work time, not counting drying.  I can easily get the job done in a day and deliver the next, even when doing more elaborate finishes.

   On fine woods, I usually limit myself to a very judicious use of dye stains to equalize colors without taking away from the natural look of the wood itself.

   Penetrating oil stains are absolutely useless in my experience.  I had a taste of them 35 years ago when I started finishing, and never again.........

   By the way, I drastically underestimated the amount of pine we went through.  At our peak, we were getting in a flatcar load a week, which was about 70,000 board feet, not counting sheet stock and local truckloads. The arithmetic works out to something over 3.5 million board feet a year, and we were a fairly small operation  That 70's pine furniture (yech!) ate up a lot of material.

   Michael R

1. 
   nikkiwood | Apr 17, 2005 08:17am | #9

   I hate stain, but I think you would be pleased to know that I filed your post (Woodwiz' Stain Technique), so's I can give it a go. I've just taken on making and finishing the door/window casings for several rooms in an old mansion here. And the new finish must match the old, so I will have a chance to try out your advice. Thanks."I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong."
   -- Bertrand Russell

1. 
   Tao | Apr 17, 2005 03:22pm | #10

   My most important advice:

   Practice on scrap!

   Good luck

   Michael R

3. 
   hammer1 | Apr 13, 2005 03:40pm | #3

   I've used the Minwax conditioner. It lightens the stain color a little. It's specifically made for this purpose and you don't have to worry about getting it just right.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

4. 
   forestgirl | Apr 13, 2005 06:51pm | #4

   Zinnser's Seal Coat is great stuff.  If you don't need de-waxed shellac, you can make up your own 1# cut of shellac and use that.  I'll echo the recommendation to practice on scrap.  If the wash coat doesn't totally prevent blotching you can try using a gel stain.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
   Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) 

5. 
   MarkRoderick | Apr 14, 2005 10:27pm | #5

   Another approach is to spray on a dye stain, as opposed to a pigment-based stain. The book Understanding Wood Finishing by Bob Flexner is a terrific resource for questions like this.

6. 
   trebark | Apr 15, 2005 04:32pm | #6

   Joe, I once used a Minwax product that had stain and poly mixed together and it worked great with no blotching.

   Good Luck