I am working on the finish for a blanket chest built from quartersawn red oak. I have built a number of pieces out of this material and have thus far been very pleased with my finish results. However, my technique is based more on guesswork than on a solid understanding of how to apply the finish.
For this particular project, I am using an analine based dye to achieve the overall color/tone of the finish. Since this is a water based dye though, the grain keeps raising and I feel like I need to sand all over again. (note: I was using a card scraper initially, but found that the surface was not as even as sanding. Perhaps the edge on the scraper was too aggressive.)
After several applications of the dye, I am now using steel wool to rub down the raised grain, and this seems to be working out. My next intended step was to apply a polymerized tung oil varnish.
1) Am I supposed to apply a sealer first?
2) What can I do to prevent the grain from raising so much and avoid what seems like unnecessary sanding?
3) What would better water proof my finish? (previous combinations of the water based dye and danish oil have resulted in a finish that bleeds when cleaning it over time)
Replies
Have you thought about mixing some TransTint dye with Alcohol instead of water. This will get around your grain raising issue. I like to put a 1lb cut of "blonde" shellac over my dyes. You must use "dewaxed" shellac if you intend to put a protective coating over it (Poly, Varnish or Lacquer). The shellac will "seal" the color and prevent it from bleeding. I have seen Zinser sells a blonde pre-mixed shellac at my local Home Depot. Probably easier to use that then mix your own shellac flakes. I usually brush or wipe on 1 coat of the shellac and then sand with 400 grit to smooth it out once it dries.
I like the Waterlox products for my top coats. I have also had very good success with thinning the MinWax oil-based Polyurethane with Mineral Spirits and wiping it on. Waterlox is thin enough so you can wipe it on right out of the can, but the MinWax product you will have to thin. I like a 2 part MinWax Poly to 1 part Mineral Spirits. A light scuff sand with 400 between coats and then some synthetic steel wool once the topcoat has cured for over 48 hours.
Cheers!
Dark Magneto
Edited 10/18/2004 3:31 pm ET by Dark Magneto
A sealer coat isn't needed before applying varnish. To prevent the grain from raising, use an alcohol based aniline dye. Varnish is an excellent waterproof finish. Danish oil offers little protection as a finish, but is helpful as an oil based coloring agent.
The best way to avoid raised grain when working with water based finishes, is to hand plane the surfaces. You'll be amazed at how little the grain will raise on a surface left by a sharp hand plane. Hand scraped surfaces seem to suffer the most from raised grain. With my furniture I hand plane all solid wood surfaces, but the veneered surfaces have to be scraped and sanded. I never use anything more coarse than 180 grit, and usually 220 is what I start with in my RO sander. I hate to sand, but I learned that the quick pass I used to give the surface, wasn't enough to really prepare the wood, so now I move the sander quite slowly over the surface, and overlap each pass by 50%. After I finish with the 220 then I wet the surface with distilled water, and when dry sand with 320 grit paper in my RO sander ( I also hit the hand planed surfaces with the 320). You can use a synthetic abrasive pad to apply the dye, which will help knock down the last of the raised grain. I'm surprised that using steel wool on oak with a water based finish hasn't resulted in the blue/black iron stains.
When it comes to finishes, I use only 3 on a regular basis, shellac, varnish and padding lacquer. For your blanket chest I think shellac would be perfect, if applied thinly. It is very water resistant if mixed fresh from flakes, but is not very scratch resistant, so a tinted coat of wax will help in that department. My other two other favorites, varnish and padding lacquer are probably not a good choices on a open grain wood like oak unless you plan on filling the grain.
On my work, since I use oil to pop the grain, I apply a very thin coat of de-waxed shellac as a sealer, although this probably isn't necessary.
I?m Robert L. Millard and I approved this message.
All very good suggestions. I am embarrassed to admit it, but I don't know that my first attempt at shellac will be on this piece. I have come a long way in my woodworking, but have yet to tackle the more serious approaches to finishing--easily the least fun aspect of a project for me.
In the past, I have applied stain and a light coat of oil to the component parts prior to assembly. Do you recommend this approach, or is it okay to apply something such as shellac or varnish after the piece is glued up? The blanket chest is partially glued up at this point, so I am pretty sure how it will go this time around.
When looking into oil based dyes for this project, I seem to remember one of the descriptions stating that even the oil based dyes bled when they came into contact with water? Can anyone confirm or refute this? I guess the best approach is to apply the proper finish coat to avoid such bleeding.
Also, I do not own any hand planes, but am pretty interested in learning more about them. Any suggestions as to a good one to start with?
Michael,
shellac is one of the easiest finishes to apply, as long as you aren't doing a french polish. It's easy because it dries fast, sands easily, and if you mess up, just wipe the piece down with alcohol and start over.
My favorite oak finish is a quick wipe with minwax Jacobean (wipe it on and wipe it off immediately) to make the grain dark, followed by Tung oil (or BLO/varnish). The quartersawn figure comes up nicely and the piece has an overall nice hue. An example can be seen at http://home.comcast.net/~paulchapko (go to the woodworking gallery). No topcoat is needed, other than a quick wax.
Good luck,
Paul
Paul-
I assume that you begin your finish prior to gluing up the piece. Is that correct? I have tried both approaches. For this project, I did all the staining prior to glue up in order to ensure evenness (not to mention that it is much easier to sand and restain). However, I don't plan on applying the varnish until it is totally put together. Does this make sense?
Your website was very nice. Most of the pieces I have worked on have been mission style, though I don't have an internet home to show them off. Need to work on that, I guess.
Out of curiosity, have you tried Varathane or Watco products? How do they stack up against MinWax?
Thanks for your help.
-Michael
Sorry to have not been specific--yes, YES, stain everything before assembly. You can also do the oil treatment before assembly, but you will need to mask all glueing surfaces. Oiled tenons won't hold glue! This is how I did the pieces shown; it leads to an even staining with no build up in corners and crevices.
What you want to do--stain, assemble, varnish--is a good way to do it. If you use the minwax stain and then oil, some of the stain will rub out (this turns out to be a good thing). This also helps with keeping the end grain from getting too dark. If you are planning on just a brush on varnish without an oil or other wiping finish step, I'd suggest you do a small experiment on scrap wood to see if the finish is OK. I found the oil step to be important for achieving the results I was looking for.
I've used Varathane (Urethane) and Watco (Danish oil, teak oil and others) in the past and both are reasonable companies. I mentioend the minwax because I hunted for a good stain color and this was one that worked well.
Cheers, Paul
I often finish pieces, including the rubout before assembly, where the configuration of the project will permit it. Right now I'm making a pair of Federal Baltimore Pembroke tables, that will have every piece finished before assembly. On the other hand many more pieces require that the bulk of the finishing be done after assembly, so of course it is not only okay but necessary to apply shellac or varnish after glue up.
I doubt that oil dyes would bleed when exposed to water, but I do know that they are not nearly as light fast as water or alcohol dyes.
Also, alcohol dyes unless given a retarder are not a good idea for open grain woods like your oak. The dyes dry very fast on the surface, but not in the pores, so that the dye will bleed out on to the surface. They are best sprayed. To be honest my experience with alcohol dyes have not been, shall we say positive, so I avoid them.
Finishing is a downer. I've had my heart broken more times than I care to remember, in the finishing stage. Shellac is very easy to apply. I use high quality artist brushes meant for watercolors. I have them in 1/2" flat brush with rounded corners for detailed areas like moldings, and flats in 1" and 2" sizes. I think the most common problem with shellac is not thinning it enough. I have mine as thin as water. While it may seem like it would take forever to build a finish, the shellac dries so fast, that you can build many coats in a single day. Nothing beats the look and feel of a shellac surface.
As for hand planes, I think there are two routes. First is to buy a good used Stanley plane from the pre WWII era. The other, and the one I recommend most, is to buy a Lie-Nielsen or Clifton plane. Hand planing is not the difficult process some portray it to be, but unless you have a top quality tool, you'll never learn. As an example, my first plane was a Stanley No. 7 purchased new in 1979, it worked and still works like a dream. Shortly after that purchase, I received a new Stanley No. 4 as a gift. That plane was a total dud, because the sole was no where near flat. If that No. 4 had been my first plane, I may have given up on the most important woodworking tool there is. If I were starting out, or could only own one plane, it would be the LN No. 6 with both the high angle and standard frog. I simply would not be able to make furniture without a hand plane.
Rob Millard
I agree on the intemitent quality of Stanley Planes however a good one can be very good. The good news is that it takes very little time to tune a 'bad' plane and you learn a whole lot about your plane in the process. Get a Stanley on ebay make sure that the throught is not enlarged and you can tune just about any other problem away. Also get the Taunton book, The Handlpane Book, it's a must if your interested in getting into planes and planing.
I thought that the article "Handplane Tune-up" by David Charlesworth in the Sept./Oct. 2004 issue of FWW was the best that I had seen on that subject. Robert Wearing in one of his books gave this exercise for better planing: put a 3/4 inch pine board about 14 inches long in a vise make a pencil mark along the edge, plane it completely off in one stroke, repeat until you succeed 10 times in a row (it might take a few days or a week). Next take a wider board than your plane and make 3 lines and plane them off in 2 (or 3 strokes, I forgot). Repeat this exercise until you can do it 10 times in a row. There may be better ways, but this helped me a lot.
Rod
Dark Magneto has it right - alcohol based stain would have been a much, much better choice for oak.
Everything Rob says is true.
Use a thinned shellac (1-lb or 2-lb cut)after staining and before final sanding. Eliminates grain raising/whiskering and gives a perfect surface for the final finish, whether it is varnish or more shellac. You can just brush on a heavy application for this, then sand.
Then you could put on varnish if you want, or just build more shellac. I've had good luck with shellac on oak; brushing is difficult, but padding it on gives a wonderful result.
Another option is the "4-F" finish described by Tage Frid in his book. You wipe on some BLO, then brush on some shellac, then just as it gets tacky you rub off the excess with steel wool. It's frantic work, especially on larger pieces, as you have to get all the excess off before it dries; but the result looks almost exactly like a rubbed-out oil/varnish finish. This is a good way to "pre-finish" before assembly. The "Rohirric" chest (on my Website) was done this way.
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
I am no finishing expert, and others here will know more than me, but here is my two cents worth.
I like to use water based stains and oil finishes. Just let it cure sufficiently, like a day or two. If you are real paranoid, a wash coat of de-waxed shellac would isolate the stain. Then the oil based stain on top.
Water based stains are a pain. I sand to 220, then use a damp sponge to raise the grain; then sand to 220 again, then let it dry a tad, then apply the water based stain. I use EF Brand stain.
That being said, I just prefer oil based stains. The color is not as rich as the water or alcohol stains, but I am comfortable with the products. Behlen makes a good alcohol based stain, by the way.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Michael,
If you are looking for Craftsman or Mission style finishes, Jeff Hewett at Homestead Finishings''s web site has some good articles regarding these finishes. For Quarter-swan white oak pieces that will not get a lot or wear I fume the piece, apply a wash coat 1lb cut of shellac, followed by use a dark grain filler, another wash coat of shellac to seal the grain filler and dark paste wax. For other pieces I fume, although you can skip this if you want to use a de, grain fill and use a wipe on oil/poly. I use Maloofs but others work well.
My personal preference is to always use grain filler of oak, even quarter-sawn. It leaves a fine furniture-grade finish that is also traditional with better made Craftsman and Mission-style pieces.
26% commercial ammonia for fuming is easily available through printing supply companies and is easy to use provide you take reasonable precautions. I find that 24 hrs of fuming in a sealed environment is sufficient to achieve the traditional patina. Many craftsman have been scared away from fuming but I find that is is safe and easy to accomplish.
Doug
You don't need high-strength commercial ammonia. Just use ordinary household ammonia from the grocery store. Works just fine and is a lot safer to handle. I get full darkening in 12 to 15 hours, though sometimes I stop it earlier if I want a warmer/lighter color.We had a discussion here a while ago about the relative merits of fuming vs. staining, and the pros/cons of ammonia fuming. Check the archives if interested."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Your right, ordinary household ammonia will work. In the testing I have done I've found the depth of penetration is enhanced with the stronger concentration.
Doug
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